Expertise

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

if i want to do that, i delete the mes and reroll as an ele, however when i want to play my fast cast ele, i play my fast cast ele
it's just that simple
if i want to use it in AB/RA im allowed to use it in AB/RA

HawkofStorms

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

And that is perfectly fine. Fast casting nukes can be fun (which is the point of a game).

But don't bring it up in an arguement about how expertise should or shouldn't be nerfed because of game balance and a discussion of the strengths of primary attributes in "serious" play.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

i wasnt the one that brought up fast cast eles

HawkofStorms

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
i wasnt the one that brought up fast cast eles
We were explaining that expertise is so powerful compared to certain other primary attributes, like strength and fast casting.


Yuhe Jithen chimes in and says fast casting is good due to fast cast nukes.

You and him say fast casting nukes are good, and others disagree with you.


The point is how good fast casting is compared to expertise. Now, drop it and redirect back on topic.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

im assuming you didnt see the "fast casting eles are terrible"

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
i use one attunement

just like most eles


i don't call completely shredding mobs of people or solo capping any shrine in under 30 seconds in AB "fail"
When you said AB there, I came to the conclusion you are clueless.
I've won AB's with a Warrior, spamming FrenzyHealSig, using Mending and using no armour.

Plus shreading mobs of people only happens because those people are stupid and stand in AoE.

And besides, if a Mesmer is using Fast Cast Nuker outside of PvE, they are infact, a very bad Mesmer. Throwing away the "iScrewuUp" potential of a Mesmer...

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

once again, you demonstrate your lack of a brain


youve won ABs like that, but did you actually participate in a useful way??

mobs of people on the bridges with a MM in the way = stuck

would you rather screw up one or two people or put the smackdown on a whole group with aoes?

last time i checked "iScrewuUP" doesnt solo cap shrines

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
once again, you demonstrate your lack of a brain


youve won ABs like that, but did you actually participate in a useful way??

mobs of people on the bridges with a MM in the way = stuck

would you rather screw up one or two people or put the smackdown on a whole group with aoes?

last time i checked "iScrewuUP" doesnt solo cap shrines
I don't understand

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
I don't understand
Yeah, me neither.

Fail.

Master Ketsu

Master Ketsu

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2006

middle of nowhere

Krazy Guild With Krazy People [KrZy]

R/

AB is just a glorified RA that takes place in a Factions PvE mission instead of the TA arenas.

The same crap that works in RA will work in AB with minor alteration.

PureEvilYak

PureEvilYak

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: May 2006

Somewhere Luxon Alignment: Chaos

The Dark Fortress

R/

I can't understand why they haven't nerfed its effect on touch skills as that pretty much only affects touchers. You might say that touchers can be beaten with cripshot, ice spike, or can't touch this, but to be honest, you have to keep running away every few seconds with cripshot or ice spikes, which isn't ideal (yes, other classes have skills that shut you down in slightly different ways, but they don't have the damage or self healing capabilities) and as for can't touch this... well, thats so incredibly specific, its a slow recharge, hefty energy cost and only affects the user, so its barely ever a good choice to take it.

As for thumpers and suchlike... A ranger with a hammer/scythe/spear/sharp pointy thing with chains, spinning blades, blunt handles and a partridge in a pear tree is just as powerful as a ranger with a bow, just different. Don't punish the attack skills bonus, it simply allows rangers versatility, and isn't overpowered.

Skyy High

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by HawkofStorms
Now, wheter it deserves a nerf or not is another story, but you can't deny the fact that it is a powerful attribute.
I don't think anyone did.

I also don't think you can deny that it makes absolutely no difference to nerf expertise to only affect primary skills, as the r/x builds aren't being used in GvG, and as for everything else, there will always be crappy button mashing builds available, so why bother doing this?

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
once again, you demonstrate your lack of a brain


youve won ABs like that, but did you actually participate in a useful way??

mobs of people on the bridges with a MM in the way = stuck

would you rather screw up one or two people or put the smackdown on a whole group with aoes?

last time i checked "iScrewuUP" doesnt solo cap shrines
A -- This is a team game, not a solo game.

B -- You don't understand what I was implying? I was implying AB is easy. Even PvE is harder.

C -- What do nukers offer other than solo capping shrines anyway? I can go run a Cripshot or something which has versatility and doesn't rely on stupidity for it to be effective.

P.S -- I don't count Mind Blaster as a nuker, because it can have versatility.

And, I would rather play against new gimmick than a tired out one.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

lol

A -- what happens when your team mates are not around? that happens a lot in AB

B -- remind me where i said AB is hard, you may have run frenzyhealsigmending, but you didnt do much to help your team win, it's called CONTRIBUTING, and obviously your team was good enough to win anyway

C -- how does a fast cast ele require stupidity to be effective? enlighten me.
you lose the massive energy so you have to be more careful about how you cast spells.......that would require MORE intelligence
and OMG YOUR CRIPSHOT HAS VERSATILITY
you must be so proud
did you ever consider that i don't NEED versatility to use my fast cast ele for what i want to use it for?
it's called pure damage, and it kills people.
that is what matters.

please, dear god, at least explain why that is stupid.

and no "its degenerate", please

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
lol

A -- what happens when your team mates are not around? that happens a lot in AB

B -- remind me where i said AB is hard, you may have run frenzyhealsigmending, but you didnt do much to help your team win, it's called CONTRIBUTING, and obviously your team was good enough to win anyway

C -- how does a fast cast ele require stupidity to be effective? enlighten me.
you lose the massive energy so you have to be more careful about how you cast spells.......that would require MORE intelligence

please, dear god, at least explain why stuff is stupid

and no "its degenerate", please
A -- Get a better team. The majority of AB'ers are bad, and can't do much in the matter of skill.

B -- I'm saying that AB is easy. You didn't say it was hard, no. But if you can win with builds like that, AB is a very, very pathetic way of showing prestige.

C -- Fast Casting Nuker requires stupidity to be effective because -- You would require someone to stand in that AoE to be effective.

Anyone decent would move out of the area that was being took up by the AoE. It's not YOUR intelligence that is the factor there, it is the opposition's intelligence.

Seriously, the more posts you make the worse you make yourself out to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Your recent edit
and OMG YOUR CRIPSHOT HAS VERSATILITY
you must be so proud
did you ever consider that i don't NEED versatility to use my fast cast ele for what i want to use it for?
it's called pure damage, and it kills people.
that is what matters.
Pure damage is bad. Not running support on a Warrior, Ranger, Mesmer, Elementalist ect. is bad.
Throwing away the shutdown potential of a Mesmer for damage is bad aswell.

And, did you ever consider that versatility allows you to combat multiple situations? Me using the Cripshot bar, was to me an extremely good example.

Stop failing.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

A -- the majority of ABers are bad, why waste my time hunting for a good team when i most likely won't get one?

B -- did i ever say it was prestigious?

C -- try staying out of 6 AoEs at once.........not easy is it? and when theres 6 or so people crammed onto part of a bridge..........it doesnt really matter

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
and OMG YOUR CRIPSHOT HAS VERSATILITY
you must be so proud
did you ever consider that i don't NEED versatility to use my fast cast ele for what i want to use it for?
it's called pure damage, and it kills people.
that is what matters.

and no "its degenerate", please
It actually is, versatile equals skill to be effective. No skill required to be effective 'degenerates' the game.
Same as for your fast cast ele applies to expertise craps: no versatility, no skill required to play, better off dead.


this thread is going nowhere tho

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

omg it requires no skill


tell me, do you have ub3r 1337 d-slash skills?

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
omg it requires no skill


tell me, do you have ub3r 1337 d-slash skills?
d-slash is dumb, it just gets owned by blocks. Not the subject of this thread tho.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

you didnt answer my question

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
A -- the majority of ABers are bad, why waste my time hunting for a good team when i most likely won't get one?

B -- did i ever say it was prestigious?

C -- try staying out of 6 AoEs at once.........not easy is it? and when theres 6 or so people crammed onto part of a bridge..........it doesnt really matter
A -- Guilds, friends list? Find a team with a Monk? Monk yourself? Simply Monking yourself allows your team to not rely on a full person to cap a shrine.

B -- Why are you running me round in circles? You just said yourself right there that your argument is moot.

C -- I plan my positioning. Don't forget those broken shadowsteps which degenerate positioning. Or maybe I would of interrupted 2 of those AoE's already. If I see myself on the bridge and there's Elementalists cooking up some AoE, I move.

Also, you're taking things badly now. Not everyone plays D-Slash, sure it's got pressure and the highest DPS in the game, but the whole blocking thing makes it quite redundant.

You're just arguing for the sake of arguing now.

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
you didnt answer my question
are you serious? Mashing dragon slash is as dumb as a R/D scythe attack spammer. Everyone can play that 'l33t', so my answer is obviously yes.
I don't get it however.


Maybe this thread should get locked tho, while I do understand that there are people who oppose to the nerf and got a point (shru for example). Only the clueless people are left atm derailing this already failing thread (Kyrein).

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

A -- my guild is pve
why would i want a monk? they do badly when separated from their team

B -- how am i running around you in circles? i never said it was "prestigious"
prestige has nothing to do with whether my fc ele works or not

C -- like you said, most people in AB are stupid


and pyro, you call me skillless, for using a fc ele, when you use d-slash

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
and pyro, you call me skillless, for using a fc ele, when you use d-slash
How is PvE related to PvP?
And I don't call you skill-less, I've used a thumper as well, same as for other gimmick crap. Doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't be deleted from the game.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

im just gonna sit back and lol at the fact that you have no idea what im talking about when its something this simple

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
A -- my guild is pve
why would i want a monk? they do badly when separated from their team

B -- how am i running around you in circles? i never said it was "prestigious"
prestige has nothing to do with whether my fc ele works or not

C -- like you said, most people in AB are stupid


and pyro, you call me skillless
A -- If you Monk, you're keeping your team alive, thus helping them stay together. And I always see PvE guilds ABing. I'm surprised at that.

B -- Not relying on bad AI / bad players > relying on it. If I can win AB's with FrenzyHealSigging, it's obvious AB is pathetic. If not for people in AB being as bad as monsters pre-AoE nerf, that build wouldn't work.

C -- You told ME "Try staying out of 6 AoE's at once".

@Above post -- In that case, IF I am misunderstanding you, explain. I myself see no misunderstanding of your posts in my posts. Only you misunderstanding my posts.

Kyrein

Kyrein

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Island of Undisclosed Location

A -- no monk can keep everybody alive when the other 2 noobs run off in different directions.
you don't know my guild, whats your point?

B -- once again, you have failed to read my post
YOU CAN WIN WITH FRENZY HEAL SIG, WE GET IT!!!
what you cant do, IS CONTRIBUTE TO THAT VICTORY!!!
YOUR TEAM WAS BETTER THAN THEIRS EVEN WITH YOU ON IT!!!

omg i use a build that works, how sad.

C -- congratulations, you can read










like the wise man said, you cant win an argument with a moron


he was right


i give up

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
A -- no monk can keep everybody alive when the other 2 noobs run off in different directions.
you don't know my guild, whats your point?

B -- once again, you have failed to read my post
YOU CAN WIN WITH FRENZY HEAL SIG, WE GET IT!!!
what you cant do, IS CONTRIBUTE TO THAT VICTORY!!!
YOUR TEAM WAS BETTER THAN THEIRS EVEN WITH YOU ON IT!!!

omg i use a build that works, how sad.

C -- congratulations, you can read
A -- Slap a Guardian on them? Easy peasy. Dark Escape to catch up? You can always use Return.
Maybe I don't know your guild, either. My point is most PvE guilds I see AB aswell.

B -- Once again, you have failed at realising if you can win by that, AB is obviously easy to win. The Warrior doing that is contributing to the enemy by giving them free kills, and being useless on the side you're playing for. Such a huge advantage to the other side.
I've also done it dual aswell.

P.S -- It works off people being bad, like Nukers.

C -- Then in that case "people in AB" would mean only me? I'm not stupid, so that "people" is irrelevent. Stop using shitty arguments.

@Your most recent edit -- I suppose you're the moron here. Your latest arguments have equaled to moot, and you have brought forward nothing supporting why it shouldn't be nerfed.

Skyy High

Skyy High

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: May 2006

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyro maniac
are you serious? Mashing dragon slash is as dumb as a R/D scythe attack spammer. Everyone can play that 'l33t', so my answer is obviously yes.
DSlash was meta for a bit.

And the point is made: you can make a dumb button mashing build (especially a melee build) without "exploiting" a secondary. Removing thumpers won't remove dumb, button mashing builds, and if it won't accomplish even that, what's the point of removing them?

BTW, both of you are being morons. The A, B, C crap can stop now.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyy High
DSlash was meta for a bit.

And the point is made: you can make a dumb button mashing build (especially a melee build) without "exploiting" a secondary. Removing thumpers won't remove dumb, button mashing builds, and if it won't accomplish even that, what's the point of removing them?

BTW, both of you are being morons. The A, B, C crap can stop now.
You've got a point there, but I'm still going to disagree a bit. You've forgotten that your common Rush / Frenzy (ofcourse on a Warrior) also needs to know when to use those stances at the right times, and you've still got Bull's Strike, that can be used offensively and defensively.
Smart usage still promotes some decent play. But yeah, your point still stands on spamming D-Slash.

However you've got RaO on your common Thumper, which is an unstrippable IAS / Speedboost with no significant bad point. That skill is pretty broken in itself. And needs no insight on when to use it, apart from times when your energy get low.

Tearz1993

Tearz1993

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

Relentless Aggressors [rA]

R/Mo

Kyrein made me lol

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyrein
im just gonna sit back and lol at the fact that you have no idea what im talking about when its something this simple
A- I'm not surprised.

B- He isn't the only one.

C- Try constructing a proper post.

Pyro maniac

Pyro maniac

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyy High
DSlash was meta for a bit.
I know, we've played it for several matches. Was 4 months ago though, not worth mentioning now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyy High
And the point is made: you can make a dumb button mashing build (especially a melee build) without "exploiting" a secondary. Removing thumpers won't remove dumb, button mashing builds, and if it won't accomplish even that, what's the point of removing them?
Of course it won't remove all button-mashing builds, however now you're saying: just because there are other dumb builds available, these ranger builds should exist too.

And yes, I do get your point that in the thumper template (I love the fact that you guys only mention the thumper template while it is about all the R/A, R/Rt, R/W, R/P, R/D etc) the skill RaO is actually more important then the expertise. Doesn't mean you can implement both. I've never said nerfing expertise will fix all the problems in guild wars balance, it does fix some problems while there are no downsides.

NamelessBeauty

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2008

Michigan State University, East Lansing, MI

Mo/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chronos the Defiler
this has been suggested SO many times it is not even funny, but I have yet to discover why the Anet dev team has not changed expertise to only effect ranger skills.

right now we see rangers that pretty much run every attacker class..

R/W Thumper
R/P Pack Hunter
R/D Escape Scythe
R/A pretty much same as the rest
R/N toucher
I have even seen R/Rt spamming spirits

I just don't understand why it is still like this, it is a stupid mechanic :/
You really think R/W is made because of expertise? LMAO no. It's from beastmaster that make it effective!

R/P is the same. Without RaO it's shit.

R/A = Stupid x 2! Period lol

R/N = Free wins lol!

So why need to change? LOL

Itokaru

Itokaru

Academy Page

Join Date: Jan 2008

BC, Canada

Disciples of the Fish

R/Mo

Quote:
Originally Posted by NamelessBeauty
You really think R/W is made because of expertise? LMAO no. It's from beastmaster that make it effective!
I'd like to see you keep RaO up with it's energy cost



Looks like what Tyla is saying, is that 'builds that require little skill should be nerfed so that only pros can play PvP'.

Tell me, Tyla, how are new players supposed to learn how to PvP, then? Everyone starts off on an easy build, then works their way up to a harder one, unless they think that they are too "pro" to use an easy build.

~ Dan ~

Forge Runner

Join Date: Dec 2006

D/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itokaru
Tell me, Tyla, how are new players supposed to learn how to PvP, then? Everyone starts off on an easy build, then works their way up to a harder one, unless they think that they are too "pro" to use an easy build.
Not really. Tell me, what are they learning from c-spacing fame?

You know what the sad thing is? They aren't going to give that up. These idiots are not there to "work their way up starting from a bad build". They just want to c-space bambi's to show their PvE guildies.

If someone wanted to learn basics, they don't need to run scrub builds in HA. They could find a decent-ish bar (at the very least) and go to RA. The arenas teach positioning, kiting etc; which are basic things you can always practice, regardless of your bar.

Ab works, too:

Quote:
Originally Posted by moriz
AB trains movement and positioning.

incidently, movement and positioning is what this game is all about, if you remove builds, map objectives, and other superficial fluff.

therefore, AB train the most fundamental basics of the game, which is important if you want to get better at it.
Now, which part of that depends on your skillbar? You see, someone could become a decent pvp'er without really knowing what their skillbar does. All they need then is some IQ to use those skills correctly (which many players on GW lack) and then experience.

It really isn't all that hard to break into the PvP scene at all on GW. You just fail to realize that the majority are morons who want nothing more than a braindead build to get some flashy emote.

legion_rat

legion_rat

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2006

668 the neighbor of the beast

TFK

A/

wow what happened to the OP? Now everyone is bitching about lame players in PvP and who has 1337 skills and who doesnt. Ok compared to you I have no skill, compared to me you have none. See how this game works?

Again to the OP:

/notsigned Leave expertise alone.

see the stupid fight you started.

~the rat~

makosi

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

If they don't want to nerf expertise, buff everything else. Why is Divine Favour limited to monk skills only? Why is Spawning Power limited to Weapon Spells (rit only) and summoned creatures (gg Rt/N MM).

The game is all about physicals. Casters are so dependent on energy and have to take great care to manage it. Warriors get adrenal skills, Paragons get adrenal skills and Leadership, Rangers get Expertise, Assassins get Critical Strikes, Dervishes get Mysticysm.

The point is, physicals easily and passively get energy management and Anet nerfs Soul Reaping on a caster class with some extortionately priced skills. They also make crap like Peace and Harmony and elite skill.

Nerfing expertise is a start, but the dev team need to take a step back and look at the broad picture.

Cebe

Cebe

The 5th Celestial Boss

Join Date: Jul 2006

Inverness, Scotland

The Cult of Scaro [WHO]

E/

Poll Added.

Please keep this thread on topic otherwise it will be locked down.

phan

phan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

phantasmagoria

Nerfing expertise would be so wrong ;

Anet or the "original skill makers" forced Expertise to be so good because ; they made all the ranger skills to energy high for a 3» char

People even chose the attributes chosen on the attribute ;

warrior : strenght » is bad ; but got some nice skills in it
elementist : e-storage » is absolute crap .. only needed because Anet decided to make ele skills cost so much + they have a waisted slot on an attunement they have to use .

So it would be better to buff these then to nerf expertise ..


Greetz ; a Cripshot ranger =)


Edit : I've read some pages and seriously some people that post here never played ranger if you ask me .
The thing why i like them is their difference in playing everytime

RaO thumper ; magebane ; BA degen ; PvE runnr ; Tyrian - Canthan - Elonian Chestrunning ; RaO Chuckr ; HaO Chuckr ; ranger spike ; legoway ; balanced GvG cripshot ; split BA and so on ..