I will not repeat the argument developped elsewhere why this update is bad.
I would like to know why peopole think that making GW 2 separate game, that separating the 2 communauty is good?
The good solution would have been no nerf at all. That would have meant that Anet do a good job laytesting their skills. But the only way to stop the whining would have been a commitement from Anet to NEVER change skilled once introduced in the game (except bug that allow thousands of damage in a second, but whe had only one or two). Nerf (and this is true for pve or pvp) only punish people for understanding the game.
I prefer equity over balance (it is ok to have uber powerful skill if it is uber difficult to get them). This get down to a matter of taste may be.
Regular change of skill as lead to a disaster : the difinite splitting of the communauty. That is sad. The proposed update will only increased that and damaged AB.
Yes AB was very close to pve setting, I could use AoE spell in AB very effectively including against players. Why? because 12 vs 12 in a bridge get a congestion that is effecient. Someting that dont't appen in an arena. All thouse thing are normal. You won't use an artillery gun to fight in a box ring...
That does not make the artilery gun imbalance, and surely god won't change the way artillery gun woked even if imbalance. Well DN were imbalanced at their time, this does not bother anyone, they just all build DN.
MMOG need to have stable rules that don't change every year.
[Dev Update] Skill Balancing PvE and PvP Seperately - 09 May 2008
skanvak
Gli
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Originally Posted by skanvak
I would like to know why peopole think that making GW 2 separate game, that separating the 2 communauty is good?
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Originally Posted by skanvak
MMOG need to have stable rules that don't change every year.
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Angelic Upstart
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Originally Posted by Arkantos
Now that we'll be having more overpowered skills, ANet should finally kill ursan. I'd rather have a bunch of overpowered skills than one super overpowered skill that lets any player clear any location.
if they don't kill ursan, this is wasted effort, because a majorty of PvErs are still going to be running ursan. |
This is a shake up, and bloody good job too, it may just inject some fun into the game again.
Avarre
If skills have to be better to fight monsters than to fight players (which is, as players are on both sides, the idea of balance), then you know the skills for PvE only are going to be stronger. Otherwise they wouldn't need restriction.
The real question is why is ANet making PvE easier?.
More skills aimed at PvE aren't needed. Better design is to reduce externalities from PvP updates. Making PvE-specific skills is just going to degrade PvE into a purely loot/time oriented game even further.
When was the last time tactics were even needed to clear an area? We don't need no tactics, we're just gonna PVENUKE these noobz!
Bad change for good reasons, overall. Not that PvE has had any depth or been interesting in the last year, though, so nothing of value will be lost.
The real question is why is ANet making PvE easier?.
More skills aimed at PvE aren't needed. Better design is to reduce externalities from PvP updates. Making PvE-specific skills is just going to degrade PvE into a purely loot/time oriented game even further.
When was the last time tactics were even needed to clear an area? We don't need no tactics, we're just gonna PVENUKE these noobz!
Bad change for good reasons, overall. Not that PvE has had any depth or been interesting in the last year, though, so nothing of value will be lost.
frojack
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Originally Posted by Avarre
If skills have to be better to fight monsters than to fight players (which is, as players are on both sides, the idea of balance), then you know the skills for PvE only are going to be stronger. Otherwise they wouldn't need restriction.
The real question is why is ANet making PvE easier?. More skills aimed at PvE aren't needed. Better design is to reduce externalities from PvP updates. Making PvE-specific skills is just going to degrade PvE into a purely loot/time oriented game even further. When was the last time tactics were even needed to clear an area? We don't need no tactics, we're just gonna PVENUKE these noobz! Bad change for good reasons, overall. Not that PvE has had any depth or been interesting in the last year, though, so nothing of value will be lost. |
Weakening skills so it requires some good play (or rather mere attention) just makes it more dull for everyone. Fighting dumb bots with weak skills...
Nemesis of God
They done it only to calm down about Zaishen title. Still nice update.
Thierry2
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Originally Posted by Avarre
If skills have to be better to fight monsters than to fight players (which is, as players are on both sides, the idea of balance), then you know the skills for PvE only are going to be stronger. Otherwise they wouldn't need restriction.
The real question is why is ANet making PvE easier?. More skills aimed at PvE aren't needed. Better design is to reduce externalities from PvP updates. Making PvE-specific skills is just going to degrade PvE into a purely loot/time oriented game even further. When was the last time tactics were even needed to clear an area? We don't need no tactics, we're just gonna PVENUKE these noobz! Bad change for good reasons, overall. Not that PvE has had any depth or been interesting in the last year, though, so nothing of value will be lost. |
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Thierry2
I agree that they're making PvE even easier, but maybe people will finally stop playing ursan everywhere now.. even if it doesn't get nerfed.
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N1ghtstalker
now PvE will not suffer the consequenses of PvP
lets nerf [escape] now
lets nerf [escape] now
Hyper Cutter
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Originally Posted by netniwk
Most of them are overpowered and linked to grindranks.
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bel unbreakable
totaly crap even
netniwk
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Originally Posted by Hyper Cutter
On the contrary, it seems to me that outside a few major offenders (Ursan, TNTF, SY, and a handful of others) that most PVE skills are mediocre at best...
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tre_peter
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Originally Posted by Avarre
The real question is why is ANet making PvE easier?.
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It works both ways. The foes get the buff too, so you will still need to pick the right skills, or you'll only die faster.
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Originally Posted by Avarre
When was the last time tactics were even needed to clear an area? We don't need no tactics, we're just gonna PVENUKE these noobz!
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Plus, nuking is fun! I remember the old days of laying down meteor shower and firestorm and thinking I was the bee's knees.
Ah, I can see the game returning to that old state, where you could get away with being a noob, making your own inventive, fun builds that seemed effective (as opposed to being at a disadvantaged for not using the cookie cutters). I remember my firestorm/lava font warrior
Akolo
who said foes are getting buffed? who said skills are getting buffed?
anyway i am both for and against this, depending on how Anet handles it :S
anyway i am both for and against this, depending on how Anet handles it :S
Woop Shotty
Wow! Anet used to be very serious about keeping all skills balanced, that is to say same, for both PvE and PvP. I think it's a surprise, and I don't like it. I guess they got tired of trying to make skills viable in both areas.
Why are you guys gobbling this up as good news? There are 1235 skills. I'm sure they're not going to have an alternate for every one of them, but I think it's a bad idea to create so much confusion...
Why are you guys gobbling this up as good news? There are 1235 skills. I'm sure they're not going to have an alternate for every one of them, but I think it's a bad idea to create so much confusion...
RyXXed
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Originally Posted by Thierry2
I agree that they're making PvE even easier, but maybe people will finally stop playing ursan everywhere now.. even if it doesn't get nerfed.
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Not to mention almost one skill - one bar players.
distilledwill
I have to say, im not too keen on the idea. However, what has to be done, has to be done.
Lalita
Sweet! I have a wish list a mile long of skills nerfed over the last couple years. Would LOVE it if they would take away the 10 minion cap, minion armies ftw!
Would LOVE it if they would take away the 10 minion cap, minion armies ftw!
Elena
hmm now i'm not sure but i thought the cap came cause minion masters dominated too much in pve
Nyree
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Originally Posted by Avarre
If skills have to be better to fight monsters than to fight players (which is, as players are on both sides, the idea of balance), then you know the skills for PvE only are going to be stronger. Otherwise they wouldn't need restriction.
The real question is why is ANet making PvE easier?. More skills aimed at PvE aren't needed. Better design is to reduce externalities from PvP updates. Making PvE-specific skills is just going to degrade PvE into a purely loot/time oriented game even further. |
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| When was the last time tactics were even needed to clear an area? We don't need no tactics, we're just gonna PVENUKE these noobz! |
Avon45
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Originally Posted by zwei2stein
You already see people wanting to buff splinter weapon (!!!) and minion masters (!!!).
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Getting out-of-topic there, so I'll just stop.
Pumpkin man
Moar bridge > less of me having to deal with PvP douchebags. 
About time!
About time!
tre_peter
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Originally Posted by Akolo
who said foes are getting buffed? who said skills are getting buffed?
anyway i am both for and against this, depending on how Anet handles it :S |
To quote the dev update wiki;
"With such a system we can revert high-impact nerfs, such as Light of Deliverance and Defensive Anthem, to make them strong again in PvE."
For PvE, they will be making certain skills more powerful than they are currently, that's what I consider a buff. And foes that use the skills that get buffed, will become more powerful.
At least this is my understanding...
ogre_jd
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Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote
Try doing missions in Cantha -- there's nobody home!
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Alliance Battle outposts tend to be bursting at the seams, from what I've noticed the few times I've bothered with it (I'm strange and have no real interest in the titles or the Factions PvE skills, so I can get more than enough faction via questing and slaughtering all in my path when I travel through the areas, especially since I tend to try and do a full circuit of the outside of explorables the first time I go through).
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Originally Posted by tre_peter
hope you properly read the dev update before commenting!
To quote the dev update wiki; "With such a system we can revert high-impact nerfs, such as Light of Deliverance and Defensive Anthem, to make them strong again in PvE." For PvE, they will be making certain skills more powerful than they are currently, that's what I consider a buff. And foes that use the skills that get buffed, will become more powerful. At least this is my understanding... |
zwei2stein
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Originally Posted by Nyree
IMO nuking is a tactic. The tank aggro the enemies and try to have all of them attacking him, the nukers try not to break the aggro and nuke everything, what is wrong about it? You may be using the AI in your favor here but, i don't see any noobish here...
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There are better (and more advanced) options on how to obliterate mobs.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Nyree
IMO nuking is a tactic. The tank aggro the enemies and try to have all of them attacking him, the nukers try not to break the aggro and nuke everything, what is wrong about it? You may be using the AI in your favor here but, i don't see any noobish here...
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Originally Posted by Nyree
How come leaving the skill the way they are now or changing to the way they were before is making PVE easier?
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Originally Posted by tre_peter
It works both ways. The foes get the buff too, so you will still need to pick the right skills, or you'll only die faster.
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Mewcatus
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Originally Posted by Avarre
I wasn't referring to nuking as a tactic. I was referring to just crushing mobs with the overwhelming firepower of PvE skills. Hence pvenuking.
Do you really, honestly think they are going to introduce a new PvE setup just so they can reduce the power of some skills? When the prime offenders on PvE are the currently-in-place PvE skills that need nerfing? Enemy damage is practically irrelevant through SY, TNTF, and the other massive levels of passive defence. What matters is your ability to kill things - and increasing that will just increase the ability to yawningly crush mobs. If skills like SY were nerfed (preferably into oblivion), this might be different to an extent. |
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10287497
Solves your problem, doesn't it? Let the others who like the possible reverted PvE rules mode to play on their terms.
To each their own. Now, the only ones who will complain, are those who wishes to dictate how other people play.
Avarre
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Originally Posted by Mewcatus
To each their own. Now, the only ones who will complain, are those who wishes to dictate how other people play.
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It's a silly argument. A good game has solidly defined boundaries through which the player performs. If ANet wants to make dozens of optional rules, they might as well just release GW to be played offline with 7 heroes and fully open to 3rd-party programs.
Rocky Raccoon
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Originally Posted by DarkNecrid
It adds even more knowledge they need to learn, which puts anyone off from doing something. There are a ton of people out there who refuse to go to college, not because they don't have the money, but because they don't want to go through 4 years of gaining knowledge again. They get put off of it from school.
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It is no good to try to stop knowledge from going forward. Ignorance is never better than knowledge.
Enrico Fermi
NeHoMaR
Hmmm! they are doing this 3 years later? so still we can get an Auction House and Hair-Stylist in 1 or 2 years? ^_^
FengShuiDove
This sounds like a fantastic plan in my opinion. Particularly since I should now be able to happily keep running Perma Shadow in PvE and the scrubs spamming it in PvP can go suck an egg.
Really though, especially considering all of the PvE only skills out there, normal skills are dwindling in use. Paired with an Ursan team, the old LoD would have been godly, but was nerfed due to an overpowered PvP usage.
I don't care how late it is, I think this is a smart move.
Really though, especially considering all of the PvE only skills out there, normal skills are dwindling in use. Paired with an Ursan team, the old LoD would have been godly, but was nerfed due to an overpowered PvP usage.
I don't care how late it is, I think this is a smart move.
Shakkara
Great now unnerf paragon.
Song of Restoration back to 5 energy and a 10 sec recharge for gods sake!
Song of Restoration back to 5 energy and a 10 sec recharge for gods sake!
Mitchel
"We're busy working on GW2"
I guess this is just another test program like the Concise description and the BMP for GW2.
I guess this is just another test program like the Concise description and the BMP for GW2.
Burst Cancel
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Perhaps we should next allow players to spawn platinum and instantly kill monsters. Players who don't want to use it don't have to, and shouldn't dictate how the game should be played to those who do.
It's a silly argument. A good game has solidly defined boundaries through which the player performs. If ANet wants to make dozens of optional rules, they might as well just release GW to be played offline with 7 heroes and fully open to 3rd-party programs. |
Allowing players to spawn plat isn't necessarily a bad thing, and actually raises a different issue from instant-kills. Pertinent question: why does the game even need an economy? Why shouldn't you get all and any equipment for free? It's particularly relevant in a game that supposedly emphasizes skill - in such a game, why wouldn't you allow characters to start UAX-style in PvE? Then, the only thing that matters is skill - it's the only thing that can matter. You never have to grind for anything, because there's nothing to grind for - the actual purpose of the game crystallizes beautifully.
This is the approach that a lot of action games take. Sure, you get some upgrades from beating bosses, but there's not really anything to grind for. Instant-killing monsters, on the other hand, runs us into the problem of, "okay, what do we do now?"
stale
been away for a week or so, just got back. i do believe this is the first update in most of three years that i've been happy about.
PvPers can have every skill in the game nerfed to being the same damned skill(only way there will ever be "balance") and PvE can simply enjoy skills doing different things with different level's of power.
it's just a pity that they didn't do this 3 years ago, at inception, instead of now.
PvPers can have every skill in the game nerfed to being the same damned skill(only way there will ever be "balance") and PvE can simply enjoy skills doing different things with different level's of power.
it's just a pity that they didn't do this 3 years ago, at inception, instead of now.
Mewcatus
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Originally Posted by Avarre
Perhaps we should next allow players to spawn platinum and instantly kill monsters. Players who don't want to use it don't have to, and shouldn't dictate how the game should be played to those who do.
It's a silly argument. A good game has solidly defined boundaries through which the player performs. If ANet wants to make dozens of optional rules, they might as well just release GW to be played offline with 7 heroes and fully open to 3rd-party programs. |
Lets take this scenario, the Dev's just revert all the nerfs they made initially to the skills just for only the PvE rules mode, would your above scenario occur ?
You are simply offering an over the top extremely unlikely scenario to justify your words. I dare to say that, even if all the previous nerfs reverted, you would not find billions of platinum suddenly flooding the GW economy. ( Now, isn't that extreme ? )
Chances are, the Dev's will be reverting a limit number of skills on a weekly basis within the PvE setting, assess its impact, and decide whether there is a significant shift in the overall GW economy. ( I wished they would release statistcs like these though )
Instead, allowing PvE and PvP rules to be separate, with an optional setting for players to decide whether they want a PvP rule set in a PvE setting, is the best way, as players could choose how they want to play.
On a final note, everyone is aware GW is on its final lap of its MMO life, before transition to GW 2.
So I propose we let the Dev's try out as many radical and unusual ideas such as this PvE and PvP rules separation of state, and let them collect Server data on what would be the actual effect on the GW economy, and how it is applicable to GW2.
I also propose they let out 7 heroes, and see what is the possible impact on GW word, so that they can collect even more data for their analysis work.
All this serves to benefit GW2 in the long run, as they will gain insights on what to or not to apply.
Everyone can give an opinion and foresight on what the future is like. ( Heard of the phrase, "give a million monkeys a typewriter, and eventually one would write the works of shakespheare" ? )
But Hard server data collected by impacting drastic changes can be evaluated and analysed, allowing the Dev's to improve on what they are doing.
Remember, numbers don't lie, only people do.
Red Sonya
The idea now with the separation of PVE from PVP should be to make more regular skills MORE POWERFUL in the same light as UB as to make MORE VIABLE choices on what skills to play. So yeah making old skills they nerfed to oblivion back the way they were could easily make UB just another skill instead of THE SKILL. Gemme back my 30+ minions and I won't think UB is all that anymore. 
Remove the sacrifice % when healing minions as well and bring SR back to what it used to be and it will make UB look like a noobs toy.
Remove the sacrifice % when healing minions as well and bring SR back to what it used to be and it will make UB look like a noobs toy.
Burst Cancel
Just remove the cap on elite skills and be done with it.
Mewcatus
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Originally Posted by Burst Cancel
Just remove the cap on elite skills and be done with it.
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On a side note, why shouldn't Dev's try to increase the cap to 2, and see whats the possible impact ?
I am all for change, although I am uncertain what is the end consequence, I am intrigued by the uncertainty.
Lagg
This update only makes sense if it's made for all skills, not just a select few that Anet deems buffworthy.
Otherwise it'll just look like a hackjob.
Otherwise it'll just look like a hackjob.