[Dev Update] Skill Balancing PvE and PvP Seperately - 09 May 2008

Well... um, I don't think you really read my post. That was my whole point, that in an MMOG you interact with other people. And I didn't give a reason for continuing to play, only that if everything was obtainable in the time amount they specified there wouldn't be something for the "more then casual" players. And I didn't mention anything about grind. Not sure where you are really coming from since I didn't say any of that.

In reference to the original point of the thread though, I've been reading the back and forth arguements, probable scenarios, and seeing how people think this will be played out. Regina has been in this thread a lot today and I believe it's to gather player reaction (of course this is only my assumption). So maybe it was quite the good thing for Anet to announce this and keeping the announcement vague enough prior to implementing instead of the other announcement yesterday which-will-not-be-named that was detailed. Gauge the community reaction, maybe even gather a few ideas, address them before they seperate them out any concerns we are having. Again, pure assumption on my part.

I was thinking along the same line also. I wonder if this is anet's way of trying to balance pvp and pve independentaly and at the same time combat the farmers/gold sellers. Nerf some of the more popular farming builds just enough to discourage it. Why not try it out here instead of making a big mistake in GW2? If it doesn't work here, then you can always scrap the idea before GW2 goes final.

QFT.

My LB and Nord rank stink. I have no interest in grinding titles for instant-win skills.

I want to be able to do UW and DoA and FoW with a balance group, where a Ranger is a Ranger and a Paragon is a Paragon, without being forced to resort to instant-win skills.

Tonight, I found the following districts for Kamadan: seven American, 2 German, and ONE of each other nationality/language. The Asian districts were deserted, as were many of the European districts. Try doing missions in Cantha -- there's nobody home! There was ONE American district in DoA, and only two groups being actively formed in the party panel.

Too little, too late, ANet. PvE is very dead in this game, beyond farmers and those who use it as a glorified chat room. You should have separated PvE and PvP 2 years ago.

Fixing the barn door after people have left isn't going to work, I'm afraid.

And touchie's can finely be nerfed, and all those other gimick builds in pve and pvp can be nerfed.

this:

i wasnt commenting on the other part,
jus didnt bother to remove it from teh quote

~~~~

u dun need pve/pvp seperation to nerf touchers...
so sowrie, wont get nerfed

Great news

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Will things get de-nerfed in PvE (please oh please no minion limit - there has never been anything in GW I liked than my tiny MM having an army large enough to lag my computer - plus BotM with an unlimited army will be...interesting with the AI)? Will somethings that are balanced in PvP but are key to an unbalanced build in PvE get the Nerf (prot spirit)? Will they only separate by nerfs and PvP buffs apply to both (imagine the complaints when the PvP only description gets the buff)?

Also how will this work in the long term as skills get further and further apart? We have some skills that through changes (some nerfs and some buffs) aren't remotely the same as they were before. Not swapped from useful to not useful (or vice versa) but still useful but having a totally different use. If this had been in the game we would effective have double the amount of skills in the game as very few have not been touched in some way.

I find it is, from a technical standpoint, a good idea. PvE and PvP have a large amount of overlap that can be maintained (not all skill changes have to be only applied to one side) but I think this will just exponentially increase the complaints. We already see people squaring off about things that now *must* be nerfed/buffed (and will bitterly complain at every chance they get) because of this and we haven't even seen the system in work yet. I think that in practice this will make only a few happy - the vast majority of players not paying attention to skill changes much anyway.

However, for me I mostly look forward to it if Anet does what they think is the right thing. If they cave to the complainers this is going to be an unmitigated disaster.

Well, this whole idea of separating PvP and PvE was brought about by caving into complainers. Guess that means an unmitigated disaster will be impending shortly.

The very 1st skill buff or nerf right after the game, upon released of a patch, is often the results of players whining or complaining in thw 1st place.

This means they have been giving in to complainers already since the 1st patch.

^.
I'll reserve judgment until they change something. I suspect this is a downhill move, however.
With the exception of paragons, was there really that much of a disparity? :S.

Gee, 17 pages already.

Why do so many people assume this will lead to (more) powercreep in PvE and thus an even easier game? I'd much rather assume this'll lead to the game finally dealing with the fact that PvP and PvE function under completely different circumstances.

For example, skills like "Watch Yourself!" need a duration unmitigated by number of incoming attacks to be any use at all in PvE. Why? Because in PvE, you have hordes of enemies wailing on you at the same time, something you'll never encounter in PvP. In PvE, the current form of "Watch Yourself!" will only protect you for 0.1 seconds when you need it most. Waste of a skillbar slot. There's dozens of other skills that can't blossom in both environments, thanks to the inherent differences in playstyle. I'm going to assume this is what they're going to be dealing with.

what differentiate pvp from pve ...is that pve is vs AI and not humans.
most pve issues are not due to skill balance but mobs beahviour or composition.
the balancing of skill can only be done through maths and comparison (which is what happens in pvp where skills are facing each other constantly)......in pve is just a question of making AIs better (more similar to human play)....then the same balance of pvp would apply to the pve world.

example : trapping is very good in pve cos mobs are dumb and run straight into them.....if mobs detected and avoided traps then trapping would lose its effectiveness (a nerf without any change to the skill itself).

whining has got nothing to do with balance....if u say a skill has been nerfed too much u have to prove it by comparing it to others both theoretically(maths) and in practice (skill vs skill = which is what pvp is all about)

bottomline: pvp and pve if they share the same skill should also share the same balance.....and pve players should turn their attention and whining on AI issues and leave the balancing of skills to ppl who compare skills daily in their pvp encounters.

the pvp vs pve divide is a false problem created by a community of farmers to benefit farmers and which will kill the game.

Great point. The WY! nerf was one of the very few I was actually a little upset about. That and the pet/corpse thing. Here's to hoping they are both reverted.

Also, maybe some buffing for Blood Magic's life steal line for PvE - make it a little more useful without imba'ing PvP's spike teams. Would be nice. This has the potential to be really cool if they don't royally screw it up with generic power buffs for the helluvit.

Has anyone looked at this from the middle point? I mean they can really kill off all the farm builds without effecting the PvP side not that most of the farm skills are used in PvP, but I'm just saying the they could reduce the duration of skills or make the recharge time longer .

Also with this split what does it really effect much anyways I mean most sites are split into sections for builds and I think this really only effects those of us that make our own builds cause now we have to look at skills twice or check a site to see if the skill has been change.

What I find most curious is the right to question dubious changes with scorn. I thought the ability to question changes was built into democracy. I think the fact that PvE and PvP aims are different means this is a good change. Let see how it works before we (complain) question the change.

i feel instead they should make the AI and composition of mobs more similar to pvp opponents.(that way pve would also become a pvp training ground)
why in pve theres load of mobs piling up giving adavantage to AOE skills?> why mobs run straight into traps?
they should improve the pve world by improving mobs composition and AI.....

mobs moving away from aoe (after a while) was one fo the first changes to improve Ai beahviour.....that sort of changes is what pve needs.
buffing or nerfing pve skills to accomodate a limit in current AI programming is not the way.


the PvE environments in GW are great but the mob population lets it down ....
it feels like they have been thrown in at random ....without any thought whatsoever. (groups too close to each other, badly assorted, dumb AIs etc etc)

An interesting development. We'll have to wait and see what happens. Personally I'm hoping for a reversion to early 2005 for the inspiration line and also a change to spiritual pain, for when i'm feeling lazy.

Anet have said they have been looking at ways to resolve the Ursan issue, and maybe this is it.

Now a few things may happen
1. Buff everything to make it as over powered as PvE skills and UB
2. Nerf key skills to make the game more challenging for those who choose not to use PvE skills(e.g PS is target other ally)
3. Buff certain skills across all professions, and nerf PvE skills to the floor as every skill will be potentially a PvE only skill.
4. Leave PvE skills as they are and fiddle with a few skills here and there

Option 1, would be iMHO an unmitigated disaster. PvE is already far too easy, and this would destroy any enjoyment in playing.

Option 2. Sounds ok on the face of it, but would drive even more people to use PvE skills. Thus making the discrimination we see worse.

Option 3, would be my preference. Make the game as fun to play with Normal skills, as it was with OP pve ones.

With Option 4, it would be fun for a while, but I don't think it would solve any of the issues people have been talking about since Gwen came out. we'll still get the same discrimination we're seeing to today, with nothing to slow it down.

In addition, what we are seeing is the slow transition of GW1 into GW 1.5. Using us the players to gauge the mechanics they will be using in GW2

This next skill balance will be critical for GW long term, it needs to be just right so as not to spoil things for both pvp and pve.

Apparently, certain players here have mentalities which derive from the dark ages. Witch Hunting, the world is round (Oh My Gosh ! ).

Change is a good thing. Let the game evolve 1st, before anyone starts making Nostradamus predictions.

Why?

Why?

WHY?

What on Earth is the point? Some noob wants to do a million damage to monsters, and you're going to listen to him/her? Okay Anet, that's me uninstalling.

The flip side is if they buff everything that would also include the monsters you run into. Thus the foes you face will also be a little tougher to compensate for the buff to your skill bar.

Maybe, but firstly they don't have a full skill bar, secondly the AI will still be as bad, we can use cons sets to turn us into super heroes and lastly monsters bars are fixed, ours can change to find a new counter(this time with OP skills) which will revert things back soon enough.

I read the first page, then got sick of all the complaining... how is this a problem?

1) PVEers complain PVP nerfs kill their builds
2) PVPers tell PVEers to shut up

Now theres no reason for this... the only reason I can conclude is that its not ANet thats the problem, its the community for being so pathetic all they want to do is cry that ANet sucks... yes they are slow, no they are not the best but if all you're gonna do is cry then go play WoW where they have to listen coz you are paying monthly.

At any rate, yay for (hopefully) unnerfed splinter barrage

TRUE INDEED! IF certain skills are buffed in PvE, it MIGHT actually some mobs HARDER.Technically, this can increase the difficulty of PvE.

I am with you on this one. I have seen only splinter barrage in its current nerf form. I am eager to see how godly it might be in its original state.

Well, looking forward to the good old LoD and maybe Incoming! gain some usefulness.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see the actual changes. Personally, I'd like Ursan to be nerfed, not because I think PvE is easy etc., but because it'll be a good starting point for PvE balance.

On a side note, and strictly farming-ly speaking, please bring back the Splinter Barrage farm. It was one of the most amazing ideas ever thought on GW. :P

Ursan Blessing (PVP)
You take on the aspect of the bear. Your Energy returns to maximum and you have -1 Energy degeneration. You have +40 armor and +666 maximum Health. All enchantments upon you are removed. Bear attacks replace your skills. You gain Energy every time you take or deal damage. This skill ends when your Energy drops to 0.

Well if you read the origional box from Prophecies this game was advertised as just that a SOLO game. Not one place does it ever say forced grouping. This is one of the first to offer BOTH to the community and with the invention of Heroes made it even MORE soloable than ever before. Only a few places people can't go with heroes/henchies and those places they created URSANS BLESSING for those that don't have the time to stand around and wait on someone who's nice and kind and loveable to let them in their group. We've all seen it. People in this game are HATEFUL for the most part, you know it and I know it and if you don't abide by their rules then you are booted from the group. Anet in their infinite wisdom though created an alternative way to play pure solo or to give those casual players a sure fire way to play anywhere and get just about any loot.

But, as far as "challenge" goes there's challenge beyond anyones ability but nobody wants to take it or accept it as I stated, play solo purely solo just you in either mode and see how far you get before you die. Pretty challenging beyond anyones ability to do also, no one will ever beat this game single person solo, but, the CHALLENGE is there who wants to take up the torch?

Also, EVERYTHING can't be obtained in an hour, you play on words. Everything can be gained in MANY hours of play over time. In other words you can't get every unique and rare drop in the game in an HOUR. That's how YOU are wording it. But, in several months even years with the ease that the game is now yes you or someone probably could get almost everything playing 1 or 2 hours a day. But, certainly not EVERYTHING in an HOUR. lol

Remember GW was never advertised to be a MMORPG not really even a MOG, but, a co op game. Thus your mmorpg economies don't matter in this game and shouldn't and Anet has seen to it that it pretty much doesn't now. Time only matters if you're into the 100's of title grinds and there's only a couple of grinds that really matter as far as the game is concerned and welp I'm happy those grinds were introduced. I want things to be easy to get, but, I didn't say I wanted them to be got ALL AT ONCE as you are implying I said. I don't even like that some things are still 100k plus ectoes. It's rediculous to have items of that value since your casual gamers will never aquire that kind of cash. Thus why UB is now in the game, they don't need cash anymore, just a few hours of time and UB and they might get lucky and get that 100k + ecto item. Looks like it's working out that way and I'm glad for the little guy.

If people want to play an econ game go play WOW or EQ or DAOC and all those others that really build an economy like that just to keep people paying $15 a month. Anet doesn't get any extra out of the gamers per month so if people quit it's no big deal they already made their profit off those people. Out with the old in with the new there's kids turning 8-13 everyday.

Plus even as the game is now nobody is beating the game to a pulp I see a lot of exaggeration here as I've played in all these zones and areas with my heroes and henchies and everything isn't peaches and cream there's plenty of challenge and moving of flags required it's not just move from point A to point B everywhere in the game. Realm of Torment in hard mode is still a terror fighting those rain of terrors with heroes and henchies, especially the henchies as they are pretty ignorant.

The other point is that Anet can see the data that you and I can't see. So, no matter if the game is dull and boring and non-challenging to you as long as it's fun and entertaining to a majority that's all that matters. They cannot please a minority and shun the majority. Thus all they are doing is to benefit the majority. It comes down to that again of create your own challenges (you never madeup house rules for any of your games?) or quit.

Myself as I said I pretty much went to PVP. I'm having a blast dancing on assassins and rangers heads everyday and gaining those zashien keys now to get my first emote spear. If they have an event that has some good items like during wintersday or like Gailes goodbye party I'll pve for those items. Then sometimes I just feel like a PUG and sometimes I don't like a mounds or almond joy bar. haha

If one can have the ability to move around play something different each day or week they might find they can enjoy the game more. But, if people just want to be fuddy duddies and complain complain complain welp they are just sour people and probably sour in life as well. Now that's not to say I won't complain "sometimes", but, lol here I see the same people complaining every single day usually about the same thing like 7 heroes or this skill getting nerfed or these people are jerks cause they do this or this or this. You know the spill you read it more than I do.

One more thing Inde, if you really look deep at this game it's nothing more than a larger Diablo 2 with animated chat rooms (and crappy drop rates lol). Each town and outpost is just that an animated chat room to trade, store stuff get different stuff etc. But, when you move into that "instanced area" it's just like Dialbo 2, nobody except those in your group can interact with you. So, it's hardly like a true MMO or MMORPG which have persistant worlds to play in as well as instanced areas. That's why soloing is so popular in this game, because it's EASY to use and do and NO WAITING like you have to do in those elite areas or in other MMORPGs or MMO's. If NScoft turned this game off tomorrow it could still be made to be played OFFLINE just like you would a Neverwinter Nights, a Diablo 2 or any other offline game. It's only difference right now is you can play it online and there's bunches of people to chat with. Hell even those offline games you can play online and with the same size groups and in instanced areas just like GW. Diablo 2 and Neverwinter Nights come to mind right off.

red sonya u speak a lot of sense to me...but some ppl here do not want to see things for what they are.

inde , like the community she represents (this forum developed around PCs and TRAding) , reasons like a pve farmer. she cares aboout exconomy and rpg elements.

the philosophy on which GW was founded was SKILL>TIME. many ppl here ignore this.

many here unfortunately joined GW cos it was a free alternative to existing mmorpgs bringin their old reasoning into it....and then formed this vocal minority to have more of the same old they had elesewhere.....and then ultimate paradox telling other ppl what gw should be.

these ppl should have never joined this game which advertised in clear letters SKILL > TIME.

It is the best change Anet has ever made...Period! I am so excited that I may actually have to start playing it as much as I used to, I will be dusting off my Ritualist which has not been used since the big nerf, I will resurrect my Paragon again which also has not seen the light of day in a long time, and last but not least, I will enjoy bringing my Mesmer back from a long sleep. I may even have to re-consider purchasing GW2 when it comes out. I vowed not to buy another Anet product again after they nerfed the PVE only skills the day after they gave them to us, but this may change my feelings about Anet.
All I can say is, I am happy Anet finally listened to us PVE'rs, PVE and PVP needed to be seperated years ago, but it is not too late, it may even bring back a lot of people that left because of all the nerfs to PVE.


This is indeed great news! Thanks Anet!

The game was also advertised as grindless, where skill not time makes your hero....

And as a PvE game to lead you into PvP.....

It also says Hamstorm is a viable combo too....

We all saw how that turned out.

this what attracted me to guildwars.
why whining farmers had to ruin this game
and they gonna ruin gw2 too....
gw RIP

i hope another company develops on Anets initial ideas...

I always tought this game was primarily intended as a guild-based pvp game with pve as the tutorial and the means to find a guild.
The ideal originally was: You enter the game, play trough the pve part with your single pve character and then you join a guild and play pvp. Anet had to rebuild the game because this playstyle turned out to be unpopular.

And i'm glad they did. I would have gone sick if being forced to use the overpowerd build of the day in TA or HA. Options are good.

Interesting.. Looking forward to see what skills are going to be changed.

(Can we haz a pvp version of Ursan Blessing now ?? lol)

Just hope it is done right, although I don't believe the change will alter PvE play much unless Ursan gets knocked down a lot - just my opinion. But here is to hoping for more options for those that would like them.

One thing, why were we told not to long ago that the seperation of PvP and PvE skills "could not" be done? That is different than the " do not" want to seperate them answer, that I have been reading in other posts.

One thing that would be nice to see returned to its former state, Energizing Winds. For fun, it would be nice to trap UW again circa 2005.

Will see how this works out, adjust and play on.

UM

lol?

There are very few options in PvE. You will be forced to take stuff to PUG, and anything you do with heroes/hench will be bad because it doesn't involve more players.

NOT FOR NOTHING dude but:
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Category...king_TA_builds
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Category...king_HA_builds

Plenty of options. And that's PvX wiki, which sucks, so there's way more than that too.

Now they can buff skills without screwing over the PvP players,can we get rid of PvE skills?Most of them are overpowered and linked to grindranks.

Indeed.
GW:EN was already testing some ideas for GW2.
GW is used for animal experiments in its final days, uuuh...^^

I so hope that GW2 does not end up with abominations like Ursan Blessing and the title craze that has infested GW1.

Enough reason to shiver before reading the next update notes...!

A very good thought.
A tuned down Watch Yourself! (PvE) could e.g. replace Save Yourselves, without being as strong.
Just as inscriptions made green items less valuable/desirable, the new seperation of PvE and PvP skills makes pure specialized PvE skills less special or needed.
But I doubt they will kill the skills and their associated title tracks.

Interesting statements. I find it quite nice I can play solo if I want, even when doing things that require me to have help. Hero/hench allow me to do more than just mindless solo farm. However, playing with real people allows me to do more. Even a 'perfect' build is not usable by a hero all the time. Some builds aer more about knowing where to stand, what to attack, when to attack, etc. and the heroes can't handle those situations all the time. Obviously the hench are limited in their skill bars. A skill balance that will allow people to blow through PvE might be a bad thing. A skill balance that allows some things to function differently than in PvE might be a good thing. I'm still waiting to see the first changes before I decide.

You already see people wanting to buff splinter weapon (!!!) and minion masters (!!!).