[Dev Update] Skill Balancing PvE and PvP Seperately - 09 May 2008

we dont know if it will get easier at all, all we know is that they will be balanced differently and thats a good thing considering they have very different needs and what not.

Because I want a legitimate challenge, not a self imposed one. A game that's too easy isn't satisfying to play, playing in some deliberately stupid way does not change that.

Yes, we don't know if it will get easier. But it won't get harder, thats for sure. Coz if it gets harder (even if its just slightly), the whole world will QQ and rage quit on GW.

i feel the same way.

what anet is doing is retarded......just giving in continuosly to a vocal minority (farmers) who unfortunately have in Guru a strong voice .(guru is the farmers forum).

skills should be balanced....how do u achieve balance? through maths and testing them against each other in practice (pvp).

having pve versions of skills is retarded....its like saying "pve skill will not be balanced"....which ruins the gw experience for the silent majority.

the vocal minority (farmers) dont care about balance.....they dont care of having a fun game to play.....they only care of gettin as much gold in less amount of time. if anet wants to cater for them its alienating players like me who chose GWs on the basis of skill>time.

the first step towards ruining pve was pve only skills.....now the disaster is complete.

the philophy behind prophecy has been betrayed. prophecy pve was like a tutorial and the same skill u developed there were transferable in pvp...and vice versa.
the devide makes this game.....2 differents games.

i will not pve anymore (i enjoyed both before the crap started)

oh please... un nerfing anything for a PvE purpose can only serve to make it easier.

Im not sure about that, people loved hardmode and some still do for sure (i like it just suck lol).

I think the fact that it wont get easier or harder but just different could be a good thing too, it will get changed on its own merits and not as a result of changes need to pvp or reverse.

roll back all those pve nerfs forced by pvp and nerf the crap out of ursan lololol

Hehe, I know, i just made the sweeping statement for fun

Changes are good sometimes. Stirs things up a bit, keep people talking, keep people interested. Look at the amount of discussion and QQ/Support we have here after the released of info.

Edit: Btw, when are we going to see Ursan Pvp? Ursan vs Ursan will be nice.

Not once have the said they will do that at all infact if i read it properly the only skills that they plan on making any real changes to will be the PVP ones,, alhtouhg of course it does leave it open enough that they might make changes either way. But until there actually is a drastic change why are you all acting like this is the end of the world? Sounds more like pvp guys are sour that they might not have as powerful skills is all to me.

Its just a game guys, you have played it for years already and if you dont like the way its heading then stop playing cause your obviously not playing for enjoyment anymore, just out of habit

As much as it might sound nice to have skills balanced separately for PvP and PvE, I think that this move will simply add an unnecessary layer of complexity while driving another wedge between PvP and PvE.

With any skill balance, you're going to have people who like it and people who hate it. ANet has nerfed several PvE-only skills in the past, and have declined to nerf others, so this change doesn't seem like it'll affect some of the most controversial PvE skills.

Likewise, if a skill is broken for PvP, chances are it will affect PvE similarly because it's in the design of the game. When areas were designed, they were balanced with PvP skills in mind. And, when skills are balanced for PvP, PvE'ers invariably find another way to continue to accomplish the farming and dungeons/missions that they always have. For example, Splinter Weapon with a longer recharge only means that it'll take slightly longer to roll through a group of enemies, and there are plenty of PvE builds that don't use it at all. If a skill really needs a drastic change that will have a major effect on the balance of a PvE area as designed, then maybe new PvE-only skills need to be introduced instead (and rebalances of areas are not unheard of either).

Besides, what does this change mean for the Isle of the Nameless? How do you test the effectiveness of a skill or build there if your skill might be set to PvP instead of PvE or vice versa? And what about the impact on third-party tools like gwbbcode? Several sites already have trouble keeping the skill descriptions up to date as it is. And it's hard enough trying to get new players to make that transition from PvE to PvP without having to confuse them about a skill's functionality.

For as much of the whining that goes on about PvE vs. PvP, if the skills are going to be separated, then really there might as well be two separate games. And as someone who plays both, I don't think I'd want to play one without the other.

honestly thats a fantastic idea

-News flash for people worried about learning curves: The game is 3 years old now; I doubt anet's priority is catering to brand new players.
-Ursan will more than likely be nerfed in the same update.
-Like alot of other people, I'll have to call this update "interesting" till I see what happens with it.

Don't think they will touch Ursans, it probably will create an uproar and we will see at least 5 pages of threads QQing the nerf.

Example: Nerf a necro skill in an update --> Certain necros who use that skill might QQ
Nerf ursan in an update --> All Ursan (read: pug) will QQ

next there'll be 2 types of pve:
pve with imbalanced skills (infinite minions, mending +11 or what not)
pve with balanced skills (based on skill comparison=pvp)


this is turning into a joke

its not bout makin it easier...
its bout makin it balanced

now u dun have to run ursanway to clear every area...

Ok, I just read the OP (yeah, slowpoke) but woah.. woah!!!

Is it possible to have the old ritual lord build reverted? o_O

It’s funny to see fish out of water.... flip....flop…
All those people who say
"I can pve blindfold"
"Pve is so easy I don't need skills on my bar"
The list goes on
and all those other wonderful people saying how easy it is, how is it that you stayed satisfied this long?


One less person using UB, and umm can I have your stuff...

I think this is good
No more suffering from PvP nerfs =D

And what about if they reduce the power of ursan, while making some previously neferd skills a viable option in PvE again? Will people whine then?

Of course they will do, people complain regardless of what they do, XD.

But many people would thank that too.

Since PvE and PvP are so different, is impossible t make changes in both sides equally.

First we must see what they do exactly. Having PvP versions will allow to make more 'strong' PvP nerfs while affecting less PvE. That's for sure.

You never "had to" run Ursan to clear an area. You had to have competient skill bars. And good monks (which are a rarity in the Ursan pugs, energy management, protection prayers, what's that?).

I don't believe having different PVP/PVE skills will effect GW in a bad way at all. PVPers will still have their balanced skills and surely ANet will know better than to make PVE any easier than it is. This should make their job easier - in that they wont have to be concerned about any future PVE skill changes causing an imbalance in PVP.

The first changes I'd like to see: Equipping UB causes the users game to alt-F4 - MMs get their old minion armies back with pre nerf Soul Reaping - Make Tactics useful again.

Wow.

Well, GG PvE.

Nice work on advancing the engine.

But shame for catering to the demands of the weak and pathetic.

Sounds great and I love the idea as long as anet doesn't think its a free ticket to render certain skills useless.

they just want to kill splinter weapon imo, lol, massive pve backlash..

Thats abit extreme
Maybe try this: Equipping UB will cause players to drop their swords and shields.
Reason: Bears don't use swords and shields.

Excellent news, i hope they continue with this idea in GW2. People who PvE should not be punished with nerfs because of abuse in PvP and the same goes for the other way round.

Disclaimer: I do PvE and low end PvP.

I've thought for a long time that this would be a generally poor solution to the problems it's intended to fix. That said, it seems like they're approaching it with all due caution, and I'm willing to see how they give it a try. There's a few things I hope they do (some of which it sounds like they're at least considering) as they begin balancing skills in this way:

Don't use this as an excuse not to balance PvE. Although I've pretty much given up on them balancing for PvE since EotN preview weekend when I got my first and last try (outside the mission) of UB, I still have hope that they'll start working on skill balances for PvE. I agree with many players who see any move to acknowledge "PvE Balance" that doesn't start with a nerf to some of the other ridiculously OP things EotN introduced as being somewhat hypocritical.

Balances should apply to both sides as much as possible. If this just means that every skill update from here on out only happens to the PvP areas (and I consider this a serious possibility after the last balance update revert), then I will be very disappointed. If a skill is overpowered in PvP, it is most likely overpowered in PvE as well. In fact, I wouldn't mind PvE still seeing toned down versions of the nerfs PvPers get.

Don't revert old nerfs. I'm not as firm on this one, but I wouldn't like to see ANet go back and revert every nerf PvErs complained about. Many of them were needed on both sides. I see people asking for skills like Incoming, or even Soul Reaping, to be reverted to older (broken) functionality. We don't need those skills back. Some have PvE skills to replace them (TNTF removes the need for Incoming for example, and having both in Incoming's pre-nerf state would be too much in a build that's already very strong). Some were needed on both sides, whether some PvErs like it or not. That said, being able to give Morghan back WY would be nice.

Don't do PvE only buffs. We have enough OP PvE skills at it is. Like above, if a skill needs buffing it's usually underpowered on both sides. Don't just buff a few skills to make a new set of "PvE Only" super-skills. That's not what PvE needs.

There should be a visual distinction on the skill bar. Just like the lock icon over PvE skills in PvP areas, there needs to be a visual representation of the fact that the skill you are using is no longer the same as it was in a PvE area. This will help a little with the inevitable confusion this update will cause. My recomendation: a small icon in the one corner, probably on the bottom (think: enchantments/hexes/dagger chains). This one's obvious and I'm sure they've already got something in mind, though.

I posted in another forum how I am on the bandwagon that this will be a good thing. I've played other games that did this and it makes balance easier.

And by balance for PvE, I mean changing skills in PvE so that the community accepted builds increase, and people will actually be encouraged to use their 100s of skill points to make a greater variety of builds better suited to tackling particular areas, rather than using the same overpowered builds over and over.

I would agree...if ArenaNet actually balanced competantly. (i.e. more than one person doing the blunt of the work, reasonable buffs/nerfs, and an equal balance of buff/nerfs.)

From what I can tell, ArenaNet is just planning for alternatives to Ursan.

Chill. Right now it's just in the initial stages and we have no idea what skills will change, or by how much, or anything else ..... really, except that they are trying an idea the MAY be implemented in GW2.

Ignorance is bliss! I, and others that I know, do a lot of PvE and have NEVER used Ursan except the mission where you have to use it. Check your facts before making an all encompassing statement like that.

GG ANET!!!!!

Screw the QQers.

hit
hit
WATCH YOURESELF
come back to meee my oh so trustfull watch youreself let us protect the squishy casters once more *spreads arms*

I hope I get a couple of farming skills back with this one xD

A proper balancing of PvE would include:

- nerfing Ursan Blessing a lot
- toning down the effects of consumables or removing them
- nerfing several more PvE skills
- improving mob builds and area design
- making the game more challenging
- a very harsh nerf of 55 hp and some other farming builds, causing farmers to faint and die

But I fear the balancing could end like this:

Barrage now shoots nuclear splinter bombs in PvE.
Splinter Weapon itself gets buffed despite being great already.
Light of Deliverance becomes godly again.

What else skills are hot favorites to be "balanced" this way?

I would like stronger blood magic, but then they would have to buff the whole blood line for PvE, not likely to be the first thing they do.


They will start with a few skills and then we will have two games: GW PvE and GW PvP.



Maybe they finally get the idea to implement PvE and PvP in one game, not so seperated as currently, or just make two different games:

GW2 and GW2: Tournament.


Hugh.

they skill balanced Light of Deliverance for the sake of PvP. In the aftermath of said balance they had to change a henchman's skillbar because the skill sucked in PvE.

What about the change to Recall? That addressed a big imbalance in the PvP realm but affected how it was used in at least one elite mission.

I like the idea that they are trying this out. As someone said we are beta-testing GW2 features.

What I am worried about is that they go overboard on either or both sides on the balancing/reverting of skills

Heck, maybe they will buff the much coveted Balthazar's Pendulum</sarcasm>

As for Ursan, the only place I may use it is in FoW. I prefer running any other class than Ursan.

True. This only took how long to implement?

Negatory, what's the fastest way to make a game un-fun? -make it too easy. -I know many already think PVE is too easy, but for the masses it isn't. I expect changes that will make PVE more difficult in some of med difficulty areas. They will have to if they are going to revert some of the old favorite skills. Can you imagine how easy some areas would be - using Heroes, PVE skills, etc - with some of the old skills reverted? I think many of you will be in for a surprise when these skill changes come into effect.

Thank you A-Net.

So they finally reached the point where it has become too difficult to balance PvP and PvE aspects with the same set of skills. This can go good or bad depending on the direction the developers take with this. At least their first move into this idea is a smart one by starting out very slowly.

yet everyone still uses it

(and no, i dun use ursan)