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Originally Posted by Tyla
The AI being miserably stupid is why PvE is easy. Nothing will change that.
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[Dev Update] Skill Balancing PvE and PvP Seperately - 09 May 2008
Mewcatus
super strokey
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Originally Posted by Antheus
Well, how about we make hard mode easy.
Isn't that somewhat besides the point? And after this change, go back to normal mode. It'll be easier than pre-searing is with level 20 character. The problem with this division is not that PvE will be balanced or nerfed. PvE skills will be balanced against Ursan, Seed of Life and TNTF. Now imagine instead of having 3 godly skills 900 of them. And, going back to dying in Hard Mode. What if it's made as easy as normal mode? How long, before you get bored of it? |
kobey
Ursans will still be using Ursans anyway. Not that it will matter to them 
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Mewcatus
That is only for you, NOT everyone thinks that way.
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Just ask the majority of good players, or even average players.
Even bad players should know how stupid the AI is.
Have you seen some of the crap people have got away with in PvE?
Zinger314
It's obvious that ArenaNet will create more overpowered skills in PvE than reduce them (case in point; Ursan, Seed, and TNTF still exist.)
snaek
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Originally Posted by King Symeon
Because this is a PvE forum, and in this forum PvE players have whined about skill update after skill update 'nerfing' their builds. Now they applaud this update because it means their builds will never be 'nerfed' again. They don't care one iota about being separated from PvP. Those who play PvE and PvP are a minority, but naturally they are the ones opposing or sceptical about this update.
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i'd say most ppl r pve
followed by pvx
then followed by hardcore pvp-only
i pvx and am lookin forward to this update
i really have no clue y anyone would oppose this update
other than being too lazy to make builds for pvp and make builds for pve
in which case, i'll direct u here: http://www.pvxwiki.com/
Chthon
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Originally Posted by Stolen Souls
Kinda has me wondering...does this mean that all the skills are eternally gonna remain as they are now, in PvE? Or can the PvE version be nerfed, while the PvP version is unchanged? Reason I ask is because of a certain few skills...namely Protective Spirit, which Izzy's said hasn't been nerfed because it's a key skill in PvP.
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And, just in case anyone missed it the first time: REMOVE THE DAMN TIMER FROM SOUL REAPING IN PVE. (Link to the reasons why.)
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Originally Posted by Sleeper Service
Chton you forgot pet corpses.
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(And, yes, I was aware that you meant that as a snarky comment, but I choose to take the point seriously.)
Saraphim
I feel indifferent, I'd hope that the changes aren't so drastic that they discourage people from moving to PVP.
Btw, Soulreaping. Is the timer really that much of a problem? I run my curses necro with a 15/-1 offhand and rarely run out of energy, and don't even use SoLS. Can't speak from a MM point of view as I let Olias run the boring but effective Jagged Bones build, but he never seems to have any problems raising up to 10 minions.. but then he does blow the buggers up rather a lot.
Btw, Soulreaping. Is the timer really that much of a problem? I run my curses necro with a 15/-1 offhand and rarely run out of energy, and don't even use SoLS. Can't speak from a MM point of view as I let Olias run the boring but effective Jagged Bones build, but he never seems to have any problems raising up to 10 minions.. but then he does blow the buggers up rather a lot.
Turtle222
actually, im changing my mind, i play both pve and pvp, and didnt really mind the nerfs etc, they spiced up the game
Richardt
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Originally Posted by super strokey
Im not saying make it easy, what im saying is that i have troubles with it all the time and with all these people saying HM is a joke it makes me feel crappy lol and i dont think i am...
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Although I'm still amused that this thread has reached this many pages, and nothing definite has happened yet.
I mean c'mon-the Dev Update said that the skills will be changed just a little, and we don't even know how much of a Retcon we'll see with other the other skills.
MarlinBackna
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Originally Posted by Zinger314
It's obvious that ArenaNet will create more overpowered skills in PvE than reduce them (case in point; Ursan, Seed, and TNTF still exist.)
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Balan Makki
Some of the weaker skills can now at least mean something in PvE with a little help, and not effect PvP. At least they'll be useful for part of the game.
There could even be a lot of skill/build combo experimentation in PvE as a precursor to PvP implementation.
There could even be a lot of skill/build combo experimentation in PvE as a precursor to PvP implementation.
zwei2stein
Anyone who have seen sabway in action can tell you lotsa reasons that SR is just fine. IMBA in fact.
snaek
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Originally Posted by Tyla
"Only for me" is a little stupid isn't it?
Just ask the majority of good players, or even average players. Even bad players should know how stupid the AI is. Have you seen some of the crap people have got away with in PvE? |
the only reason pve can be seen as hard is because they have ridiculous stats, output ridiculous numbers, and have ridicilous reflexes, omniscience, etc...
but never because they're smrtr than u
Mewcatus
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Originally Posted by Tyla
"Only for me" is a little stupid isn't it?
Just ask the majority of good players, or even average players. Even bad players should know how stupid the AI is. Have you seen some of the crap people have got away with in PvE? |
I have no problems with the Dev's going down this path, lets just wait and see how the changes taper out, BEFORE we all start crying Nostradmus DOOMSDAY prematurely !!
super strokey
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Originally Posted by Richardt
Some people are just jerks.
Although I'm still amused that this thread has reached this many pages, and nothing definite has happened yet. I mean c'mon-the Dev Update said that the skills will be changed just a little, and we don't even know how much of a Retcon we'll see with other the other skills. |
Tyla
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Originally Posted by Mewcatus
Once again, this is from your point of view, other people might have differing views. I NEVER made a GENERAL SWEEPING STATEMENT that PvE is TOO HARD, but you MADE a GENERAL SWEEPING STATEMENT that PvE is TOO EASY.
I have no problems with the Dev's going down this path, lets just wait and see how the changes taper out, BEFORE we all start crying Nostradmus DOOMSDAY prematurely !! |
But PvE being easy is true.
Just looking at the playstyles and skillsets, of alot of the playerbase pre-ursan shows that.
Crap like Mending, Healing Breeze, you name it.
skanvak
To Inde,
I can oppose this move before it is implemented BECAUSE my opposition is politic and not techique. I don't care they do it right or bad. That is the idea : separate pve and pvp that I am against from the very start. I was against the unlink of HA and god favor, I was against pve only skills and so on.
So this is the phylosophy behind the proposed update that I oppose. I don't want it implemented altogether. I hope that trying to make may point here my help in this way.
I can oppose this move before it is implemented BECAUSE my opposition is politic and not techique. I don't care they do it right or bad. That is the idea : separate pve and pvp that I am against from the very start. I was against the unlink of HA and god favor, I was against pve only skills and so on.
So this is the phylosophy behind the proposed update that I oppose. I don't want it implemented altogether. I hope that trying to make may point here my help in this way.
Phoenix Tears
oh yeah, finally, then they can hopefully unnerf now Skills like
Splinter Weapon
Sunderign Attack and Penetrating Attack (also waitign on a good rename of those 2 for years >.>)
They can hopefully unnerf the summon limit of necromancers and put for pvp versions of summon skills then there the limit of 10 (if anyone is even so weird to go MM in PvP lol, because yet its still one of those palystyles, which are total crap for Pvp, due to the fact, that you need ever fist corpses, before beign able to summon something...
Thats really one of the biggest points on the necro ,that anet has destroyed due to pvp
WY could be reverted to its old being, and what not else, that got death nerfed thanks to PvP having there too powerful synergy with other skills.
All the good Buffs that we have seen temporaly in test balanced can we receive now for pve, while the pvp versions stay the old..., liek for example the latest tempory test balance.
I want Chaos Storm back at 5E, the pvp version can stay 15e
Thats really the freakign best, what anet can do, split finally the stupid balancing of Skills and bring the balance only to the mode, where it is NEEDED and when somethign gets buffed, the buff can automatically be used for both modes eventually.
Have to think of more skills now, which need to receive the Unnerf Revert XD
But absolutely in first sight, I can personally only think on Splinter Weapon.
Splinter Weapon
Sunderign Attack and Penetrating Attack (also waitign on a good rename of those 2 for years >.>)
They can hopefully unnerf the summon limit of necromancers and put for pvp versions of summon skills then there the limit of 10 (if anyone is even so weird to go MM in PvP lol, because yet its still one of those palystyles, which are total crap for Pvp, due to the fact, that you need ever fist corpses, before beign able to summon something...
Thats really one of the biggest points on the necro ,that anet has destroyed due to pvp
WY could be reverted to its old being, and what not else, that got death nerfed thanks to PvP having there too powerful synergy with other skills.
All the good Buffs that we have seen temporaly in test balanced can we receive now for pve, while the pvp versions stay the old..., liek for example the latest tempory test balance.
I want Chaos Storm back at 5E, the pvp version can stay 15e
Thats really the freakign best, what anet can do, split finally the stupid balancing of Skills and bring the balance only to the mode, where it is NEEDED and when somethign gets buffed, the buff can automatically be used for both modes eventually.
Have to think of more skills now, which need to receive the Unnerf Revert XD
But absolutely in first sight, I can personally only think on Splinter Weapon.
BlackSephir
Curious how it will look
Aggressive Refrain PvP- the way it is now
AR PvE- you attack and move 66% faster, your attacks cause Cracked Armour.
>_>
Aggressive Refrain PvP- the way it is now
AR PvE- you attack and move 66% faster, your attacks cause Cracked Armour.
>_>
Tyla
Pheonix, no limit on minions is stupid. Do you understand how fast you'll clear up an area?
Granted there are plentiful corpses.
Granted there are plentiful corpses.
Squishy ftw
Splinter is one of the most powerful skills in pve and you still want to see it buffed...
It would be fun, sure. But silly overpowered aswel.
The same goes for no limits on minions..
This is one of the things I don't want to see happen with this update.
It would be fun, sure. But silly overpowered aswel.
The same goes for no limits on minions..
This is one of the things I don't want to see happen with this update.
StormDragonZ
I'm hoping the following get the first go at:
[skill]Incoming![/skill] [skill]Penetrating Attack[/skill] [skill]Clumsiness[/skill]
[skill]Incoming![/skill] [skill]Penetrating Attack[/skill] [skill]Clumsiness[/skill]
Boogey Mancer
i would like for them to drop the Energy on a lot of the curses skills to 10E or even 5E instead of the 15E there at right now. unless they change soul reaping then it wont really matter what Energy there at.
MithranArkanere
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Originally Posted by Jetdoc
...and the divide between PvE and PvP becomes wider. Simply put, it's sad that it has come to this.
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PvP is not PvE. PvE cannot be balanced like PvP. Monsters do not change builds.
The only problem is that if you do not change PvE skills, people will get stuck to the same builds again and again in PvE.
A good option to fix that would be to increase weaknesses and resistances in monsters.
If an area has a lot of monsters that are so weak against Air and resistant to fore, you don't bring the typical build.
But PvP versions being added doesn't mean that they are not touching the original skill anymore. They may still keep PvE skill changes once in a while to keep things moving.
Rift
This is a good thing for the game. Finally, we get an acknowledgement that PVE and PVP are two different beasts that sometimes need to be handled differently.
A skill that produces an overpowered condition in PVP is not necessarily overpowered in PVE because the situational variables and goals are different.
Take the spammability of Splinter Weapon, a staple skill for vanquishers, and VOD farmers.
PVE typically revolves around getting from point A to point B and killing all monsters in between. PVE monsters stats overshadow your own to makeup for AI deficiencies, whereas PVP NPCs are more on par with players and are subject to the full impact of your skill levels.
We must also note that PVE has a much different rhythm than PVP; there is a greater number of less intelligent (ok, debatable) foes to face. Balance must be achieved not only with the skill power levels, but also between the feeling of grinding through the game, and the feeling of playing through the game. This is why spammability of a skill is important and not necessarily imbalanced in PVE whereas it can cause unwanted side-effects in PVP at crucial moments.
Sure nerfing recharge will potentially fix PVP, but can be aggravating in PVE when vanquishing 200+ foes jumps from 1h00 to 1h30 hours (plz to wait for the rechargez).
By allowing the separation of those staple skills without making them PVE-only, will, I think, lessen tensions between the two player archetypes.
A skill that produces an overpowered condition in PVP is not necessarily overpowered in PVE because the situational variables and goals are different.
Take the spammability of Splinter Weapon, a staple skill for vanquishers, and VOD farmers.
PVE typically revolves around getting from point A to point B and killing all monsters in between. PVE monsters stats overshadow your own to makeup for AI deficiencies, whereas PVP NPCs are more on par with players and are subject to the full impact of your skill levels.
We must also note that PVE has a much different rhythm than PVP; there is a greater number of less intelligent (ok, debatable) foes to face. Balance must be achieved not only with the skill power levels, but also between the feeling of grinding through the game, and the feeling of playing through the game. This is why spammability of a skill is important and not necessarily imbalanced in PVE whereas it can cause unwanted side-effects in PVP at crucial moments.
Sure nerfing recharge will potentially fix PVP, but can be aggravating in PVE when vanquishing 200+ foes jumps from 1h00 to 1h30 hours (plz to wait for the rechargez).
By allowing the separation of those staple skills without making them PVE-only, will, I think, lessen tensions between the two player archetypes.
Sniper22
Um lets see... I think they can increase pve searing flames to at least 250+ fire damage and maybe limit the energy cost down to 5 since you have to spam it. PvE WoH should now also heal allies in the area because some pve mobs attack more than one target. Pve "Incoming" should also be increased to 15 secs with a 10 sec recharge because mobs deal too much dmg...
End of sarcasm...
I think I'm on the borderline of quitting this game after 3 years... seriously never thought anet was gonna mess up this badly.
End of sarcasm...
I think I'm on the borderline of quitting this game after 3 years... seriously never thought anet was gonna mess up this badly.
kobey
Initially I thought it was a great idea. Then when I read some of the requests for buffs(revert) to the skills, maybe its not such a good move.
More people will QQ, more people will request for changes, and then more QQs. Its a cycle.
Maybe the new system is a nice idea, but probably making the difference for future changes and not previous changes.
More people will QQ, more people will request for changes, and then more QQs. Its a cycle.
Maybe the new system is a nice idea, but probably making the difference for future changes and not previous changes.
DutchSmurf
As far as I understand it, they aren't going to buff skills in PvE while keeping them the same in PvP. From what I read, the idea is that the few times they need to nerf a skill in PvP that sees lots of use in PvE too, they can do it without it effecting PvE. So if we get more then 20 skills that are effected I will be very surprised. Anyone expecting lots of changes in their PvE game will be disappointed for sure. But then, looking at the last months of updates, anyone expecting lots of changes in their PvP game won't notice much difference either I guess.
Now the only problem will be if Anet starts with just a few skills, but then keeps listening to the forums and add more and more skills to it. As long as it is only a couple of skills, I doubt anyone minds.
Now the only problem will be if Anet starts with just a few skills, but then keeps listening to the forums and add more and more skills to it. As long as it is only a couple of skills, I doubt anyone minds.
Moloch Vein
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Originally Posted by Antheus
The problem with this division is not that PvE will be balanced or nerfed. PvE skills will be balanced against Ursan, Seed of Life and TNTF.
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If what you say is true, yes, then this would be the most horrific move possible. However, my sincere hope is that the most glaringly idiotic PvE skills will actually get toned-down to a reasonable level.
Antheus
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Originally Posted by Red Sonya
No this is a great move now the pvper can stay in his/her own forums and discuss the pvp nerfs/buffs and no longer will we have to listen to the elitism that pvp rules all balance in the game. Finally separation of the two is here and I couldn't be happier.
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What does PvP crowd gain? Nothing really, since for them nothing has changed.
So where exactly is the benefit?
In PvE (since this is to prevent nerfs), stagnation will occur. With changing skills, builds rotated. To obtain balance, some skills would need to be incredibly nerfed (PS, SB, WoH) - but these were nerfed in the first place
because of PvP - so they will be buffed at best. But there will be nothing new, nothing of value to add.
And in PvP, it will take 2.7 days for new meta to evolve, and then whining will follow for next month till things change again.
And any kind of nerf that would slow down PvE will hinder the acquisition of titles. And is that really such a good idea in Title Wars?
No, someone please explain to me why now? Who will benefit from this? The myriad of new players, emigrating WoW, disilusioned from AoC vaporware, deceived by Vanguard:SOH, bored of EvE...
Who exactly is this change for? Everyone who's been around is sick of PvE by now. And those that are still replaying the content over and over will do it with or without this.
I don't know, I simply don't see any kind of benefit from this. Except mark my words - Ursan will seem weak, without it being nerfed.
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| If what you say is true, yes, then this would be the most horrific move possible. However, my sincere hope is that the most glaringly idiotic PvE skills will actually get toned-down to a reasonable level. |
And if Ursan does get nerfed, the joy of reading the forums will make it worth the money lost.
prism2525
I'm not sure but I think in GW2 PvE and PvP will be seperated from day 1 right?
At least they're trying to salvage what's left of GW1. Hopefully they will revert Ether Renewal (even though I never saw it's glorious form)
At least they're trying to salvage what's left of GW1. Hopefully they will revert Ether Renewal (even though I never saw it's glorious form)
snaek
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Originally Posted by skanvak
To Inde,
I can oppose this move before it is implemented BECAUSE my opposition is politic and not techique. I don't care they do it right or bad. That is the idea : separate pve and pvp that I am against from the very start. I was against the unlink of HA and god favor, I was against pve only skills and so on. So this is the phylosophy behind the proposed update that I oppose. I don't want it implemented altogether. I hope that trying to make may point here my help in this way. |
i'd like to hear y u think seperation is not good
Sniper22
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Originally Posted by prism2525
I'm not sure but I think in GW2 PvE and PvP will be seperated from day 1 right?
At least they're trying to salvage what's left of GW1. Hopefully they will revert Ether Renewal (even though I never saw it's glorious form) |
Utaku
As a player who plays both part of the game, I must say that this idea just doesn't sound right to me.
I played all classes in pve, and I never ever felt hurt by soul reaping nerfs, paragon nerfs or whatever. Buffs, nerfs, they were all fresh air in the game and tweaking builds is a lot of fun...
I guess I'll just completely stop playing PvE...
I played all classes in pve, and I never ever felt hurt by soul reaping nerfs, paragon nerfs or whatever. Buffs, nerfs, they were all fresh air in the game and tweaking builds is a lot of fun...
I guess I'll just completely stop playing PvE...
Racthoh
Oh good, because PvE needs to be a little easier when we already have PvE skills and consumables turning everything into a joke.
Darmikau
I want to know why people are complaining about the PvE/PvP bridge, do you really care that much about what other people play? In fact, for Hardcore PvP players, isn't it a better thing because it's more likely you'll have more challenging opponents?
wu is me
Hmm if they pull this off without making PvE skills feel arbitrarily balanced, then that'll be quite an achievement, cos skills that aren't balanced based on competitive play for me are always gonna seem arbitrarily balanced.
Esan
Anet really cooked their own goose by suggesting that skills might be un-nerfed for PvE. Haven't they learned by now not to even give the faintest whiff of pandering? This thread is proof that anything Anet does, no matter how widely suggested, will end up causing endless wailing and gnashing on the forums.
Anyway, I have a maxim that every topic is fully exhausted by page 3, and this is already page 10+. No one important is reading this, so I can just end with monkey monkey monkey monkey monkey
Anyway, I have a maxim that every topic is fully exhausted by page 3, and this is already page 10+. No one important is reading this, so I can just end with monkey monkey monkey monkey monkey
Yichi
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Originally Posted by Racthoh
Oh good, because PvE needs to be a little easier when we already have PvE skills and consumables turning everything into a joke.
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Basically with this update you went from 99.9% of PvE, about 75% of PvP... to 99.9% of the game being a total joke... GJ!