[Dev Update] Skill Balancing PvE and PvP Seperately - 09 May 2008

Dont know what some people consider a challenge,maybe they should add ¨must die mode¨all mobs do fatal dmg(kill´s u instantly) with all their skills and atacks maybe.Probably that would be a challenge.

never lose even a single player.

edit: then again i run fun builds in PvE because I don't care if I die in it LOL

This is gonna be an interesting update for sure. I just hope they increase the usefulness of some assassin and mesmer skills in PvE, so people actually take them in groups :P

Once they've buffed/reverted enough PvE skills, then they can nerf Ursan beyond repair and everyones happy!

Can't I make snarky comments without people interrupting me? Sheesh.

Apparently, the majority seems in favor of the PvE and PvP separation...

Just as a um.. side note. That's not what I said at all. I said that this is the first time that it might have a chance to be balanced and thought I was clear adding in the "only referring to GW" part. I wasn't referring to other MMOG's.

I am a little easier satisfied. I wrote in the official wiki in the underpowered skills section, that

So if the make the Elite energy skills useable in PvE again, so you have a choice of what you take with you, then I am in the boat again.

Edit: As long as it is handled the same in GW2. Always those limitations.

Thus:
1. Pure PvErs gain in having an easier game, and can try more outrageous / crazy builds, without fear of nerfs in skills due to PvP concerns.

It doesn't update until you reboot Guild Wars.

What do u mean ? I only said to alter the skill sets BEFORE u enter a dungeon, the change ONLY affects ur skill sets, NOT the monsters skill sets. WHY the heck should the monsters get the "nerfed" PvP skill set ?


Quote:
2. Mix PvE/PvPers can "train" the way in PvE and do WHAT they want

"Training" won't work if these skills are all different, effect-wise.

YES it does, in general, PvP skill sets are just more watered down versions of PvE skill sets. Choosing to pit urself with a PvP Skill set against Monsters which use a PvE skill set, creates a artifical HARDER difficulty, don't you think ?


Quote:
THIS satifies ALL sides. The only ones who WILL complain now, is those that WISHES to control how another player should plays the game. ( You know who you are )

Wrong. PvX players will have to get used to 2 seperate sets of skills.

WRONG, PvX players can JUST CHOOSE to use PvP Skill set ALL the way within the dungeon, if they want to get use to the feel of the skills. And DON'T complain that monsters using PvE skill sets will make it completedly different because, in the 1st place, PvE mosnters ALREADY have different specialised "monster" skills and differing amounts of MP and HP, as well as resistances.


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HEY ! This is between YOU and YOUR Guild mates ! YOU / YOUR Guild mates CAN choose to gimp or pump the skills sets for whatever PvE difficulty you deem fit.


Yeah, well that won't change the fact that the AI is miserably stupid.

Sure its miserable, then simply choose to use "Godly" PvE Skill sets to boost your pleasure of playing. I only stated this to players who think PvE skills should not be "buffed" again, making game play too easy. TRUE, it is easier for you, so stick to using the PvP skill set which you say gives you a harder challenge.

NOT all players are 1337 type of hardcorers. If you WANT a challenge, you can choose to stick to your rules, JUST don't impose YOUR rule on ME.

You see, I'm not so sure. When they did a poll for this a few months ago, the results were the EXACT opposite, with like 80% against the idea and 20% for it. Now that it is being done, there are a lot more people flip-floping and going along with a.net (*cough fanboyism*).


Edit: @Mewcatus, please take your post to the Suggestion forum and put it there. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand (which is about discussing what will be done, not your suggestion for how it could be changed).

i'm not too sure...

on one hand, anet is now free to balance pvp with no worries about pve impact.

on the other hand, we now essentially have two games instead of one. i've always maintained that anet was trying to make GW into too many things at once. maybe this update will be the last straw that really DOES seperate the game into pieces. who knows.

They will probably display both, or have an option to display one another.
Example:

Mending
PvE:
Enchantment Spell. +1...5 Health Regeneration.

PvP:
Enchantment Spell +1...3 Health Regeneration

wow this is fantastic, hope they bring back ritual lord! All the old builds that were nerfed cause of PVP now stand a chance,

Rit lord
Soul reaping
etc... im gonna be back to playing the game in not time at all! woot!

I would agree that you can do anything PvE in this game without said aids, but I would like to see you do a HM dungeon or HM DoA and call it easy. I think even the best PvE groups out there know to be cautious and attentive in areas like that . For me, the difference between using consets or not is just speed. Why do a dungeon in 2 hours if I can do it in 1.5? I think Ursan makes people play stupid sometimes, but not using a celerity in FoW is just boring. I don't like running slow!

I dont have anything against u, but tbh im beginning to get sick of people saying they wont buy gw 2 after anet implements an update,heard people, threat with rage quiting from gw after nerfs to ,yet i bet the majority of them are still playing the game.

That is true, but only for the people who have played a long time, have multiple skills unlocked, and know the skills monsters use. Not everyone has played long enough to be able to say that though. New people who have a W/Mo and an E/Me won't do well with no Necro, Rit, Ranger, Sin, Derv, and Para skills to give to heroes. They may not know skills to use in their own builds (W/Mo can't get Eviscerate until Hells or Sorrows, a place a new player won't reach quickly). New players also may not know about Balthazar Faction unlocks or skill tomes. They may not own more than 1 game, or even have heroes yet.

I remember a post here about 2 months ago from someone asking why the game was so hard. Perhaps you think they were lying, and they had an easy time playing?

I am excited about the possibilities this offers. I am also scared of the possibilities this offers. I will have to wait and see how Anet plays their cards before I decide to be excited or scared.

Unfortunately, you are a very small percentage of the PvE community that realizes this. They can't tolerate change because that means they have to actually think of a way to complete a mission rather than flying through it with their typical builds. As a PvPer I always enjoyed skill balance because it changes the way you approach the game and it's a challenge to come up with a new build that works.

Overall, I'm really happy this update is coming - it's just overdue.

Because this is a PvE forum, and in this forum PvE players have whined about skill update after skill update 'nerfing' their builds. Now they applaud this update because it means their builds will never be 'nerfed' again. They don't care one iota about being separated from PvP. Those who play PvE and PvP are a minority, but naturally they are the ones opposing or sceptical about this update.

I don't disagree with you by the way.

Monsters get PvE skill sets. ( WHY THE HELL SHOULD THEY GET THE PVP SKILL SETS? THEY ARE PVE MONSTERS FOR PETE SAKE! ) Since it IS already embbed into the system that PvP and PvE skill sets exists separatedly, I don't SEE why it is so difficult.

What do you mean? If PvE'ers gain in having an easier game, wouldn't you be happy that enemies have weaker skills?
Make your mind up, player or enemy, easier or harder?


How do you know PvP skill sets are watered down versions? Inside info?
And the enemies still have the stupid AI.

They change depending on if you're in PvE or PvP says the note.
How can they just choose if the area decides?

Again, enemies still have the same AI.


A few things wrong with this: If heroes can't use skill sets properly, what makes you think that the enemy AI can?
And again, the area decides on the type of skill judging from the notes.

And yeah, just because I know that the AI is stupid doesn't mean I'm a "1337 hardcore player".
It's not exactly rocket science.

And also, you don't change your enemies' skillsets.

And before you mention it again: Heroes cannot handle alot of skillsets, what makes you think that the enemy AI would?
And you can't change your skillset either, it is based on the area being PvE or PvP if you look at the notes.

Because that is the Guru way of things. I say give it a chance to see what affect it has and then voice an opinion, instead of making a bunch of presumptions.

Am i the only person who still has troubles with GW in hardmode? honestly? Cause i die lots lol

Symeon, Skanvak... really. How is this the worst move ever? We haven't even SEEN anything implemented. For all we know this could be a turning point in Guild Wars for skill balance. (Hey, if people are allowed to say this will ruin guild wars then I'm allowed my own sensationalism and can say it might change the game).

I see the con's. I see how it CAN BE poorly implemented. But I can also see that if they do it right it can be a boost for the players as well. I don't get the black & white mentality that some are saying. That it's an all or nothing prospect.

Edit: And what Poll is everyong talking about???

Well, some guy said that this idea was popular in 2005, way before I joined guru.... maybe that's why I didn't know about it.

Oh well... perhaps people's opinions/interests changed. A couple years ago I enjoyed HA, now it's as appealing to me as sticking my hand in a fire.

You know what is funny... the changes haven't even come out and the WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance is already on call, but just think about when the changes debut.

I gotta agree with Inde (and others with a similar stance)-we haven't seen anything.

But I'm eager to see how ANet will do and I have faith that they'll do it right. So I am leaning towards ANet's side (after all someone has too ).

i don't see why you have a problem with this. if you really want a challenge, try playing without your armor on. not willing to do that? well, why not?

^_^ go go Inde, sensationalize away!

I don't like the sound of this atm.
If they will make skills stronger or even overpowered just because it's pve, then I think this will be an awful update. PvE doesn't needs even more overpowered skills, but they need players who can actually play, instead of mashing a few buttons on recharge like a bunch of headless monkies. (I have nothing against monkies.)

I always looked forward to skill updates, whether they were nerfs or buffs.
Nerfs made things interesting because you finally had to rework some of your and your hero's builds or even come up with entirely new tactics for some areas. And this part of the game(which I found fun) might just stop now, as I'm not really sure that anet will try to 'balance' pve by also toning down some skills, and not just buff some.
If they do try to keep some kind of balance in pve however, I might actually like it.


Wait and see I guess.

I remember that post. We gave him numerous suggestions about how to beat the area (the realm of torment). He eventually did. Rather then giving the new player a bunch of overpowered skills, he learned how to better use the ones he had and became a better player because of it.

The AI being miserably stupid is why PvE is easy. Nothing will change that.

Lets see it on the positive view:

No more PvEvsPvP threads

PvE and PvP intengration had profound positive effect on PvE (before PvE only stuff was introduced). As of now, people got over nerf/buff drama too. Threads complaining about nerfs are ... mild ... at worst.

This change has possiblitiy of giving us another batch of PvE only grade skills. Skills that we can probably equip on heroes, making PvE even more of joke than it already is.

If you look at it from purist view, it can also remove lots of ballanced skills from pve and replace them with mosntronsities. Robbing anyone who likes to play with PvP valid options in PvE of lots of skills.

hmm. I wonder how the state of the game would be now, if they implemented this way back. *ponders*


Kinda has me wondering...does this mean that all the skills are eternally gonna remain as they are now, in PvE? Or can the PvE version be nerfed, while the PvP version is unchanged? Reason I ask is because of a certain few skills...namely Protective Spirit, which Izzy's said hasn't been nerfed because it's a key skill in PvP.

It really depends whether they stick to their word and make separate versions for only a few skills. But I fear they won't, as everyone in this thread seems to be clamouring for a million buffs to their long lost skills... once they've separated a few, they'll cave in to PvE players again and separate some more, and then some more... leading to a full separation.

My other problem with this is that it will give ANet an excuse to ignore skills and builds being used in PvE that may be seen as detrimental, both to the community and the game economy.

Do you understand they can balance PvE now? Because they never, ever would dream of touching abused skills in PvE due to their effect on PvP before. And considering that they actually haven't changed any skills or anything in PvE in the last couple updates whatsoever yet, PvE didn't suddenly change from good to ridiculously easy. I am expecting PvE to be hit with nerfs galore (I'm looking at you, PvE skills). Your reasoning for stopping GW is simply flawed and incorrect.

There is no reason for Anet to not change skills to balance PvE. People gripe about it all the time, and now they can do it without reproach from the PvP-base.

This, however, could go south, for Anet might target farming builds with PvE nerfs. Then I think some people would get extremely pissed. But they semi-nerfed most of the major farming spots by controlling drops there.

Well, how about we make hard mode easy.

Isn't that somewhat besides the point?

And after this change, go back to normal mode. It'll be easier than pre-searing is with level 20 character.

The problem with this division is not that PvE will be balanced or nerfed. PvE skills will be balanced against Ursan, Seed of Life and TNTF.

Now imagine instead of having 3 godly skills 900 of them.

And, going back to dying in Hard Mode. What if it's made as easy as normal mode? How long, before you get bored of it?

Well if they do do that, I'll be even pissed off than I normally am.

To clarify something, my original idea was this
"In PvE areas, players CAN choose to set their Skills according to

A. Only Players Skills following PvP rules in a PvE setting
or
B. Only Players Skills following PvE rules in a PvE setting"

This is what the update is ALL about, having 2 sets of rules for BOTH PvP and PvE Skills.


What do u mean ? I only said to alter the skill sets BEFORE u enter a dungeon, the change ONLY affects ur skill sets, NOT the monsters skill sets. WHY the heck should the monsters get the "nerfed" PvP skill set ?

What do you mean? If PvE'ers gain in having an easier game, wouldn't you be happy that enemies have weaker skills?
Make your mind up, player or enemy, easier or harder?

This is done to placate those who complain PvE will become too easy for them of alot of skills become unnerfed. ( Something about it not being challenging ). The only Players who think otherwise can opt to stick with "unnerfed" PvE skill sets.

Quote:
YES it does, in general, PvP skill sets are just more watered down versions of PvE skill sets. Choosing to pit urself with a PvP Skill set against Monsters which use a PvE skill set, creates a artifical HARDER difficulty, don't you think ?

How do you know PvP skill sets are watered down versions? Inside info?
And the enemies still have the stupid AI.

Look at ALL the skills which have been balanced so far, a large proportion of them had some sort of nerfs. And the Skills which were buffed ? Just leave them the same in PvP and PvE then, since no one is complaining about them, right ?


Quote:
WRONG, PvX players can JUST CHOOSE to use PvP Skill set ALL the way within the dungeon, if they want to get use to the feel of the skills. And DON'T complain that monsters using PvE skill sets will make it completedly different because, in the 1st place, PvE mosnters ALREADY have different specialised "monster" skills and differing amounts of MP and HP, as well as resistances.


They change depending on if you're in PvE or PvP says the note.
How can they just choose if the area decides?

Again, enemies still have the same AI.

Read my "Original Proposed Idea"
To satisfy the various groups, how doing this ?

In PvE, players can CHOOSE to set their skills according to the PvE rules OR the PvP rules.

This way, people who complain that PvE rules not tying in to PvP rules can choose to do so, for another of the reasons any of the posters chose stating against it.

Thus:
1. Pure PvErs gain in having an easier game, and can try more outrageous / crazy builds, without fear of nerfs in skills due to PvP concerns.

2. Mix PvE/PvPers can "train" the way in PvE and do WHAT they want,

3. Pure PvPers can whine and change the skill sets ACCORDINGLY to what they deem fit to Anet

THIS satifies ALL sides. The only ones who WILL complain now, is those that WISHES to control how another player should plays the game. ( You know who you are )

FAIR ?

This is about the fairest way as can be, as ALL players can play the way they choose. This is WHAT gaming is ALL about.

Quote:
Sure its miserable, then simply choose to use "Godly" PvE Skill sets to boost your pleasure of playing. I only stated this to players who think PvE skills should not be "buffed" again, making game play too easy. TRUE, it is easier for you, so stick to using the PvP skill set which you say gives you a harder challenge.

NOT all players are 1337 type of hardcorers. If you WANT a challenge, you can choose to stick to your rules, JUST don't impose YOUR rule on ME.

A few things wrong with this: If heroes can't use skill sets properly, what makes you think that the enemy AI can?
And again, the area decides on the type of skill judging from the notes.

And yeah, just because I know that the AI is stupid doesn't mean I'm a "1337 hardcore player".
It's not exactly rocket science.

And also, you don't change your enemies' skillsets.

And before you mention it again: Heroes cannot handle alot of skillsets, what makes you think that the enemy AI would?
And you can't change your skillset either, it is based on the area being PvE or PvP if you look at the notes.

What on earth are you talking about ? I was not referring to any PvE monsters or AI changing their skills sets, rather that they ONLY follow PvE rules.

My idea ONLY affects the player himself in general, with his skill sets having the option of either following the PvP or PvE rules as he deem fit.

What? Did most of you just start playing or something, there were lots of things nerfed over the years that were merely decent skills in PVE, but because of specific PVP use that was overpowered there was a universal nerf. That sucked. People didn't like it, except for the PVP crowd which felt all warm inside about hurting the game for others, while fixing it for themselves. Now they finally make some attempt at fixing their biased system for real (and not those crazy overpowered PVE skills) so why fret? It's actually a step towards more balance for both. The only downer is it really took them half a million requests to separate PVE and PVP to do it.

Purely speculation on your part, unless you have some inside info.

I think they gives them the option to really balance skills like ritual lord and what not that were taken out becaues of PVP imbalances and now in PVE that problem wont exist. Very good imho if they do it even remotely right. SKills that are over powered in PVP wont change pve and vice versa. Good imho.