[Dev Update] Skill Balancing PvE and PvP Seperately - 09 May 2008 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

IlikeGW

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2005

09 May 2008 at 18:38 - 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

PVE NEEDS POWER IMBA SKILLS THAT MAKE URSAN LOOK WEAK!
This does not make the game better, it makes it shittier.

No it doesn't universally. Maybe I'd actually like to play in a way that's not *that* OP but fun and fitting the class, like a Ritual Lord? Or a Paragon that's *gasp* defensive? Some things were intended but had to be destroyed for PVP. It would be nice to have them back.

Idea is a couple years late imo, but at least people still playing the game might get to play some things normally again.

Taurucis

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

The edge of reason

I don't play any more.

W/E

09 May 2008 at 18:40 - 42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhaegor Stormborn

By "people" you are referring to 5 to 15%% of the GW population? Maybe less?

So that 5 to 15% of the GW population are no longer people? What are we then?

I MP I

Hustler

Join Date: Nov 2006

in between GW2 servers

Mo/

09 May 2008 at 18:41 - 43

Strangely, I can't bring myself to care. Good luck with it though.

Lest121

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

Army of Darkness

A/Mo

09 May 2008 at 18:42 - 44

WOW............it's about time but WOW.

MirkoTeran

Forge Runner

Join Date: Sep 2005

Slovenia

Scars Meadows [SMS]

Mo/

09 May 2008 at 18:42 - 45

I really don't see this as a good thing. PvE doesn't need overpowerd skills. It needs players who can use the existing ones better. To make things even worse, PvE versions of skills will now get an update every fifth blue moon (aka:never).

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

09 May 2008 at 18:42 - 46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurucis

A while back, people were suggesting that PvE and PvP skills were separated... now it's happening, so why is there still complaining?

Because some people back then didn't like this suggestion. Is that hard to understand?

Alexandra-Sweet

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Dec 2006

That one place with the trees, mountains and snow

Ember Power Mercenaries [EMP]

Me/

09 May 2008 at 18:43 - 47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Why bother?

The only skill still used in PvE is Ursan. Everything else only applies to PvP, so this separation is done already.

Ursans need healing (alot of I might add) and Ursan Blessing has no healing, so Monks are still needed. and Monks were hit pretty hard with all the nerfs.

Longasc

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2005

09 May 2008 at 18:43 - 48

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

No it doesn't universally. Maybe I'd actually like to play in a way that's not *that* OP but fun and fitting the class, like a Ritual Lord? Or a Paragon that's *gasp* defensive? Some things were intended but had to be destroyed for PVP. It would be nice to have them back.

Idea is a couple years late imo, but at least people still playing the game might get to play some things normally again.

This would actually hit the nail and be good.

But given their track record since ... it started already before GW:EN, I would rather bet they hit the thumb, not the nail.

It is all a matter of implementation, and this is where their ideas usually turn worse, see into what the titles mutated.

Eru Valenehtar

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2006

New Jersey, USA

The Moon's Rebirth [Luna]

Mo/

09 May 2008 at 18:44 - 49

This is a great change. Seeing how Anet is thinking with this change alone will make me go out and buy GW2. It's nice to see that Anet didn't forget about it's PvE players.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

09 May 2008 at 18:44 - 50

so does this mean izzy will take over pvp skill changes?
and we'll get a new person to take over pve skill changes?

or maybe izzy will take over pve?
and we'll get some seriously kik-ass person to take over pvp? ^__^;;;

i hope this means a more widespread skill usage
and not everyone runnin the same dam skill and same dam builds over and over again

englitdaudelin

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2006

East Coast

Soldier's Union [SU]

N/Me

09 May 2008 at 18:44 - 51

I can bring myself to care. Rather interesting, really.
Long overdue, if I can judge based on the constant comments in threads around the forum. Makes me happy because...my Paragon and Rit might get some "oomph" back.

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

09 May 2008 at 18:46 - 52

This is good. I am pretty sure ANet has statistics of the skills that are never used in PvP. With that change, they can make them usable in PvE and ignore them in PvP.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

09 May 2008 at 18:46 - 53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

I'm sorry but I have to say something... and usually it takes a lot to provoke a reaction from me but... ARE YOU FREAKING KIDDING ME??? You can not possibly be serious. At this point I am honestly just going to write your post off as someone just trying to stir up trouble. I would delete it... but there's just this small part of me that cries to think you may be serious.

I actually agree with him. This is a very bad thing if you think of the consequences.

There's already a fairly large gap that a PvE player needs to bridge to get into PvP. Namely, they need to learn to kite, pre-kite, communicate, build PvP-specific bars, learn those bars, learn to weapon swap, etc.

Adding differences to skills makes making bars and learning them even harder. Using WY! in PvE is identical to how you'd use it in PvP for example, but with two different WY!'s it becomes harder, because maybe they won't even notice its different...until its too late.

It adds even more knowledge they need to learn, which puts anyone off from doing something. There are a ton of people out there who refuse to go to college, not because they don't have the money, but because they don't want to go through 4 years of gaining knowledge again. They get put off of it from school.

It doesn't bother me, as I am a VERY hardcore PvP player, and I can take and memorize this knowledge easily. Name me a skill irl, and I can recite it's concise description, energy cost, activation time, and recharge time without looking at anything. I got em all down pat. And I'm used to making bars for different situations, investing hours into learning them, used to talking, used to macroing shit in StarCraft (weapon swapping is so much easier!), used to moving in certain ways, but your average/casual PvP/PvE interested in PvP person, isn't. This is just another hurdle for them.

Celestial_Kitsune

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

Me/

09 May 2008 at 18:47 - 54

I don't think the current system is bad, but new system will be more lenient to PvE. It is important to note that they are aware of possible confusion over the changes and will implement PvP and PvE separation carefully overtime.

I view this as a chance to balance PvE. I hope Ursan will be nerfed, and PvE versions of some skills of less popular profession will be buffed. This might lead to less profession discrimination.

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

09 May 2008 at 18:47 - 55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eru Valenehtar

This is a great change. Seeing how Anet is thinking with this change alone will make me go out and buy GW2. It's nice to see that Anet didn't forget about it's PvE players.

If the implementation is good, this change would singlehandedly put me back in the boat for GW2.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

09 May 2008 at 18:47 - 56

Quote:

Originally Posted by IlikeGW

No it doesn't universally. Maybe I'd actually like to play in a way that's not *that* OP but fun and fitting the class, like a Ritual Lord? Or a Paragon that's *gasp* defensive? Some things were intended but had to be destroyed for PVP. It would be nice to have them back.

Pagagons even at their unnerfed prime were most powerfull when they dealt damage as well as provided defence.

Rt Lord was one of most OP things in PvP-legal gameplay. It made party immortal. By todays standards it was imbagon-grade build.

Face it: they got nerfed because therey were OP. Even by today PvE-only standards.

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

09 May 2008 at 18:48 - 57

Good: this divides pvp and pve

Bad: this divides pvp and pve

:/

Ec]-[oMaN

Desert Nomad

Join Date: May 2005

Toronto, Ont.

[DT][pT][jT][Grim][Nion]

W/

09 May 2008 at 18:49 - 58

So finally the PVE'ers will get what they want "IMBA skills to spam till their hearts content" and PvP'ers get what they've wanted for the last 2 years only none of them will be around for it to matter. That's what I call a waste of resources don't you agree?

@Darknecrid TBRFH if PVE'ers haven't made even the smallest of transition from PVE to PvP which they haven't yet, why would they all of sudden want to now? I've played every PvP arena there is since release and I can tell you that really there has never been a steady influx of player base especially on the american side of things, all there has been is decline. No one should be worried about PvP learning curves this late in time.

Fril Estelin

So Serious...

Join Date: Jan 2007

London

Nerfs Are [WHAK]

E/

09 May 2008 at 18:49 - 59

It had to be done, at least for trying and seeing the effects. GG and kudos for one of the most significant update in a long while.

On the other hand, it may make the population of PvEPers (those playing both PvE and PvP) much smaller if this update is kept and the trend amplifies, as they'd have to juggle with two sets of skills evolving on their own.

Next we split GWG into a PvE and PvP side! (woaw I never saw Inde angry like that

)

Vinraith

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2006

09 May 2008 at 18:51 - 60

Speaking as a PvE only player, this sucks. There'll never be a reason to come up with a new PvE build again. How tragically game killing.

If this is going to be the system in GW2 it's a major mark against the game.

Nerf UB, nerf Sab's 3 necro build, let's make PvE halfway interesting again.

Inde

Site Contributor

Join Date: Dec 2004

09 May 2008 at 18:51 - 61

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I actually agree with him. This is a very bad thing if you think of the consequences.

There's already a fairly large gap that a PvE player needs to bridge to get into PvP. Namely, they need to learn to kite, pre-kite, communicate, build PvP-specific bars, learn those bars, learn to weapon swap, etc.

Adding differences to skills makes making bars and learning them even harder. Using WY! in PvE is identical to how you'd use it in PvP for example, but with two different WY!'s it becomes harder, because maybe they won't even notice its different...until its too late.

It adds even more knowledge they need to learn, which puts anyone off from doing something. There are a ton of people out there who refuse to go to college, not because they don't have the money, but because they don't want to go through 4 years of gaining knowledge again. They get put off of it from school.

It doesn't bother me, as I am a VERY hardcore PvP player, and I can take and memorize this knowledge easily. Name me a skill irl, and I can recite it's concise description, energy cost, activation time, and recharge time without looking at anything. I got em all down pat. And I'm used to making bars for different situations, investing hours into learning them, used to talking, used to macroing shit in StarCraft (weapon swapping is so much easier!), used to moving in certain ways, but your average/casual PvP/PvE interested in PvP person, isn't. This is just another hurdle for them.

Everyone all ready knows that GW has a learning curve. So you're saying that people actually having to think is their biggest hurdle? I don't mean to summarize so badly of course... but everyone screams for balance. It's quite obvious from the numerous MMOG's out there that finding that balance between PvP and PvE is volatile and is rarely ever able to be achieved. This is the first time that it might actually have a chance (only referring to GW here).

We don't even know how exacty they are going to balance it. We don't know WHO is going to. We don't even know what skills they may touch. So how can anyone make a judgement call this early of whether this is good or bad??

Ctb

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

W/

09 May 2008 at 18:51 - 62

Quote:

It adds even more knowledge they need to learn, which puts anyone off from doing something.

I'm sorry, but I think this is completely bogus. I don't think people are so dumb that they'll be unable to differentiate between the skills.

Furthermore, the difference in skills will remain one of the SMALLEST problems regarding gaining a foothold in PvP. I mean, come on. Spend 30 seconds with Local chat on in ToB and tell me with a straight face that any normal person wouldn't be immediately left with a crummy opinion of the PvP aspect of the game. ToB is, by far, the STUPIDEST place in the game, full of chat that would be more at home on AIM or on a Stormfront.org (politically NSFW) board than an RPG.

And, really, RA doesn't get any better. There are "elite" PvPers ganking for fun and insulting people, runners just aggravating people, ragers blaming everyone else for their screw-ups, people drawing penises on the map, and more.

The biggest barrier to entering PvP is the PvP itself. The introductory period is enough to leave just about anybody with an ill impression. Since this will not impact that at all, I think that any negative impact this split could have will be inconsequential in the shadow of ToB/RA/TA first impressions.

First impressions are important, and the first impression many people get of PvP in Guild Wars these days cannot possibly be good.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

09 May 2008 at 18:52 - 63

Pondering: will this effect monsters? Will they get new imba skills or will they keep pvp skills?

That would be actually interesting, buff both to players AND monsters.

1 up and 2 down

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2007

Rt/

09 May 2008 at 18:53 - 64

Better late than never.

Zesbeer

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

LLJK

09 May 2008 at 18:53 - 65

this is interesting to say the least. but i think its going to do more harm then good. i for one think it would have been better to see izzy buff old skills then do all this nerffing, because there is a lot of them that aren't used in pvp or pve. this also means that as far as pve skills go they are not going to get touched.

Cosmic Error

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2007

In front of the computer

Shadow of the Betrayed [Nyth]

N/Rt

09 May 2008 at 18:54 - 66

When do we find out what skills get changed?

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

09 May 2008 at 18:54 - 67

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

Why bother?

The only skill still used in PvE is Ursan. Everything else only applies to PvP, so this separation is done already.

But since this is what GW2 will be like, it makes sense to test it in advance.

QFT. This is a.net saying they give up on skill balancing and don't care if PvE is imbalanced.

The past couple updates have just been moronic.
I'm done, I'm seriously taking a break for a few weeks. A.net has made it so PvE is no fun and not a challenge.

PS. wasn't there a poll on guru suggesting this idea which had extremely NEGATIVE feedback?

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

09 May 2008 at 18:56 - 68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inde

Everyone all ready knows that GW has a learning curve. So you're saying that people actually having to think is their biggest hurdle? I don't mean to summarize so badly of course... but everyone screams for balance. It's quite obvious from the numerous MMOG's out there that finding that balance between PvP and PvE is volatile and is rarely ever able to be achieved. This is the first time that it might actually have a chance (only referring to GW here).

We don't even know how exacty they are going to balance it. We don't know WHO is going to. We don't even know what skills they may touch. So how can anyone make a judgement call this early of whether this is good or bad??

I'm not saying the balance aspect won't be bad, I'm sure this'll improve balance for PvP (can buff/nerf without the WAAA WHY CANT PVPERS ADAPT (YET WE ARENT) BULANCE coming) and will let them throw 60000000 overpowered skills into PvE that the hardcore seem to want (since they complain all the time about nerfs...), but it doesn't change the fact this is just another hoop for those people to pass, and with the PvP population shrinking, more hoops is not always good.

Not this late into the game anyways.

I'm still buying gw2 tho, i don't care about this, but I see his point.

Quote:

I'm sorry, but I think this is completely bogus. I don't think people are so dumb that they'll be unable to differentiate between the skills.

There are people who think Mending is a genuinely good skill and that you should use it all the time, so I doubt this.

I remember entering a match with someone who thought Wail of Doom was its old way and laughed at me for using it. I had to tell him to read the description. He pissed his pants.

A better update notes system (ie: displaying them like WoW and every other game does...from the client.) would help this, I'm sure.

Earth

Always Outnumbered

Join Date: Jul 2006

09 May 2008 at 18:56 - 69

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cosmic Error

When do we find out what skills get changed?

Next update probably.

Zesbeer

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

LLJK

09 May 2008 at 18:57 - 70

also this is just going to make it so there is a huge huge huge huge divide from people who play pve and people who play pvp.

Boogey Mancer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

Raven Alliance

N/

09 May 2008 at 18:57 - 71

i hoping for a buff to the pve skills for players and monsters and maybe getting the necros back to where it was before cause necros only got nerfed cause they was overpowered for pvp

Shai Lee

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Somewhere

09 May 2008 at 18:58 - 72

I'm going to side with being optimistic and hope that everything works out. I also agree with Inde that it's too early to be making judgements on whether this will be good or bad.

Faer

La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo

Join Date: Feb 2006

09 May 2008 at 18:58 - 73

OMG! Now 55 Monks can be lolnerfed without it hurting PvP!!!!!111!!

ilu anet<3

DOWN WITH PROT SPIRIT IN PVE OMG ETHER RENEWAL THAT SHIT PLZZ

Moloch Vein

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2007

Reactive Hexing Sucks

[Thay]

N/

09 May 2008 at 18:59 - 74

Now please make separate PvP and PvE versions of the Soul Reaping primary attribute.

Thanks.

Mr. Undisclosed

I phail

Join Date: Mar 2007

Phailville

D/

09 May 2008 at 19:00 - 75

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vinraith

Nerf UB, nerf Sab's 3 necro build, let's make PvE halfway interesting again.

lol go ahead and kill UB but why sabs builds? They were never considered imba and tbh they arent really all that great.

HawkofStorms

Hall Hero

Join Date: Aug 2005

E/

09 May 2008 at 19:01 - 76

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

OMG! Now 55 Monks can be lolnerfed without it hurting PvP!!!!!111!!

ilu anet<3

DOWN WITH PROT SPIRIT IN PVE OMG ETHER RENEWAL THAT SHIT PLZZ

Hehe. So there is one possitive benefit.

But, a.net won't do that. They would piss off too many farmers. A.net won't do it because they are going to be treating PvE with carebear hands. There will be no nerfs now ever, unless it is to a monster skill.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

09 May 2008 at 19:02 - 77

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faer

OMG! Now 55 Monks can be lolnerfed without it hurting PvP!!!!!111!!

ilu anet<3

DOWN WITH PROT SPIRIT IN PVE OMG ETHER RENEWAL THAT SHIT PLZZ

Skill Update - Friday May 09, 2008
Monk:

*Protective Spirit: Now costs 25 energy, takes 3 seconds to cast, has a recharge time of 30s. Functionality changed to: "For 1...5 seconds, target ally gains +0...0 Health Regeneration."

Ursan:
*Halved the recharges of all skills, doubled the damage, knockdowns last 4 seconds, hexes/conditions have their durations halved.

imo

FoxBat

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2006

Amazon Basin [AB]

Mo/Me

09 May 2008 at 19:02 - 78

I'm happy that PvP can live on (better than no updates), but I am saddened at the squalor PvE is being left in. (Yeah, they could in theory balance both better that way... but it's obvious this is simply to quiet people who whine about any nerf at all.)

Quote:

lol go ahead and kill UB but why sabs builds? They were never considered imba and tbh they arent really all that great.

Minion Mancers are still grossly overpowered and have been from day 1. The AI priotizes the decoys and just falls over to them. Only Save Yourselves! and Ursan provide comparable stupid levels of defense.

Boogey Mancer

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2008

Raven Alliance

N/

09 May 2008 at 19:02 - 79

maybe we will get the true mm back form the old days

odly

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2006

N/

09 May 2008 at 19:02 - 80

They won't have to change many skills. But a few skills have been nerfed into PvE uselessness because they were overpowered when used in certain PvP builds. It will be good to make those skills useable again.