PvE skill reversion, what do you want to see?

No offense, but your post history says otherwise.

True. Unless PvE skills are nerfed, this change will only breed more bad players.

The word experienced itself is relative and very subjective and too broad for an exact definition. Given that everyone has different playing styles, the learning commences at different rates, and insights gained differ from one player to another.

As such, you asking players to learn to play the game can be constituted to insulting them.

Case in point. How would you like it if the teacher reprimands you and chids you for being incompetent at something ? " Learn to study ! " Insulting isn't it ?

I don't deny that, but a better way would be to create a global ingame poll stating whether they like the new changes if they do take place and to what extent. Up to now, this is a feature which is sorely lacking in a majority, if not all mmos.

Come on, every player has their own account, they can institue, a one vote per account poll after every update, and tally the responses. That is the best way to account for whether the changes are truly effective and wanted.

Otherwise, just plain listening to changes if self woud NOT do. Because once again, one drop of water is not equal to the entire ocean.

From what i can see, it is just good business sense. A product at the final chapters of its active life cycle is a ripe experimental grounds for testing possible mechanics implementable in GW 2 for the following reasons.

1. The money is already in their pockets.

2. See how far they can afford to stretch far flung ideas which can possibly bring in more profit through gameplay.

3. No lashback on GW 2 itself, which is effectively independent, gameplay wise.

But like you said, Anet could be concerned for GW sentiment too much. And honestly I don't blame them. They have a huge disposable playground, which behaves similarly to an actual human society, at their fingertips. Alot can be learned.

Note- By definition of competitive, I am assuming you are referring to the PvP segment.

If you are referring to the PvE segment for competitve stage, please explain me how is that so ?

Are you referring to the global mmo market? That is a bad business decision. They already sold so many copies of GWs world wide. They did have to create even more content, of which they already explicited said no more.

The reason being that, with every new expansion, comes the further chain of the original mechanics, which can create new complications, which leads to more and more imbalance.

2 points.

1. This game is already free to play, and solely PvP accounts are available for a much one time smaller price compared to a PvE account.

Also, the only they can get even more money for PvP is unless they introduce new gimmickry for players in PvP to entice players, in which case, do you think existing PvP players won't complain if this occur ?

2. And remember, PvP and PvE is now separate, so how does changes to PvE affects PvP them, you could argue for the PvX players, of which I will gladly refer you to this thread, for the PvP Skill rules in PvE mode settings toggle.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10287497
Go actively promote it for your cause then.

What done is done, you can't reverse the flow of time. I wasn't here the 1st 3years but I am still not inclined to hear the sob story. In fact, in a warped sort of way, I would say to you, get with the times, change is everywhere.

Since you say that there is literally nothing happening that puts what's left of it at risk, why not let them implement the drastic changes then ?

After all, any changes now, no matter how drastic, can't possibly faze you now, can it ? What do you care then ?

That is your end game perspective, that is only how you see things. I won't dispute how you see things. But I must remind you once again, one drop of water will never represent the ocean.

Tactics, tactics and tactics line fix please.

Now I laugh my balls off. Another wanna be god of all.

Do you dare to say you can represent 500 000 players who have only 10 hours each, which adds up to only a base of 5 000 000 hours ? This is already the extreme end already of looking at perspective, which isn't true, given the fact that many players have far more hours.

Do yourself a favour, the minute you become a true god, with eyes over the entire GW world, looking down at the actions of the players, will I be even mildly interested in what you say. Otherwise, its just percieved arrogance.

After all, one drop of water is NOT an ocean. Let Anet themselves handle the changes, since you all say its a dead fish.

True indeed, so should Anet cater to the minority group take doesn't suck for revenue or the majority group of players who does suck ?

Think carefully before you make a statement.

I'm sorry how are the number of posts I've contributed to relevant again? The sheer fact that I have 149 busniess weeks worth of in game play for input should suffice. There are many here with far more posts than what I have with far less play. I would say their opinions are valuable as well, for reasons different than my own.

/sigh

Lets not turn this into a Troll war please.


Also I would say my opinion is my own. I don't, nor have I said I represent thousands of other player. I will say what I have observed over the past 3 years of playing. I will also say that I just as Avarre, am an experienced player. Just with different points of view.

I am just gona quote myself on this one, to solve all this pointless griefing.

Long story short, actively campaign for the toggle, and all sides win.

Minority of course. Majority of people that play GW only play because it's free, so they'll continue to play even if they lose their godly builds.

GloryFox - Ash was talking about the content of your posts, not the amounts of posts.

Assumption made: Players today are just bad.

Brillant assessment. Make the game better for the minority. So it is indeed true that mmos nowadays gain by catering to a small group.

What would think would be Anet's take on this then ?

Let me propose for you a case study.

When an update is made, it only pleases one side but angers the other.

Do you Anet would prefer to handle complaints from a bigger or a smaller group ?

Think carefully once again.

I can only hope that is true on a broader sense. I know quite a few that have left since the Ritual Lord nerf, and more that left with the Paragon AR nerf. Heck even I almost did on that nerf alone. There are other games, not all MMO's, that cater to people who play for the enjoyment of feeling powerful and important, its an aspect lost to the experience of playing in a surreal reality world. It goes back to why people play games. Some play for competition some play to get away from competition. I don't see why GW can't cater to both. The experience for PvE (the feeling of being powerful, needed, and unstoppable) and the competition for PvP (by the rush of victory over a foe of equal worth).

Both game types have their place, need and market value. I think the move ANet is taking is both long overdue and will re energize both area's of the game. Perhaps even bring back old players who got annoyed by the over nerfing of skills that ruined their style of game play.

Any Skill which Laughably Piggybacked me to finish me to finishing Vanquishing while reading Memoirs of a Geisha , and start the Ancestors Tale....

Either WTB Nightmare Mode or Tweak down PvE Power. I'd Like a Challenge in PvE. Well people mention 30+ Minions etc or Make my Farming Build more powerful it makes me wonder.....Why? In the former, surely you want some sort of challenge in PvE rather than taking the same build in PvE everywhere and rinse repeating. And surely farming *nerfs* like Mystic Regeneration are a good thing for the *Elite* - If you can still do it while 90% can't , more profit for you.
I've finished all my PvE statues and HoM (apart from those Asian Mini's *le sigh*) so I've almost exclusively been doing PvP for a bit, but I still wouldn't want to see my more favore part of the game turn into a Rampage Playpark

For those who wish to continue to play with PvP based Skill rules system in PvE. ( AKA pre-patch ).

Go to this thread and make an active vote for it.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10287497
An idea to have an additional toggle for which skill system to use.

Now, that solves alot of problems, doesn't it ?
1. Those who desire the reversion, gets it.

2. Those who wishes for a minimal difference bond between PvP and PvE, gets it.

The only ones left who would be unstatisfied are those with a desire to dictate that how others should play. ( AKA the Dominators ).


Long story short, actively campaign for the toggle, and all sides win.

revert veratas,no limit to minions and oob

kktnxbai

Lift the minion cap for PLAYER CHARACTERS ONLY.

It's not the post count. It's the posts. I spotted a post which made me lol irl.
"Paragons are crap", yet they still have: An extremely imba IAS, stupid energy management, stupid weapon mastery, unremovable buffs, and for PvE, Imbagon.

I'm not even going to comment on the other posts.

And the AR nerf was barely a nerf.

If they kill Paragons in the PvP balance, I'll be happy. Those broken things should die.

I would like to see Ursan buffed by giving warriors and other professions more energy, and give casters more armor while using Ursan. Also yes on the no minion cap.

totally gobsmacked at how a "PVE SKILL" revision thread can turn into thread necros QQing rivers over soul reaping

1. That link doesn't work.

2. People who think Ursan and PvE skills are bad for the game and don't use them are already at a disadvantage, because using them makes everything easier and faster, maximising profit. Now you're suggesting that people who want skills in PvE to remain linked to PvP, or at least not be buffed/reverted - often the same people who hate Ursan/PvE skills - should be further marginalised by being forced to either sacrifice profit for a better game, or play a ridiculously easy and boring game with overpowered skills. This would cause many players to stop playing PvE or quit the game entirely, because all resemblance of a game that once rewarded player skill in both PvE and PvP would be lost. In short: terrible idea.

I wanne see some more smiting love, especially the signets and dmg output.

Strictly on the topic of reversion: the original protective bond would be cool again together with an 1/4 casting time of shield of absorption while they're at it.

This is a big flame fest and needs to be locked >_>
In my opinion, I would say that tactics and motivation needs a buff.
Does anyone even use motivation anymore?For the effects in which the anthems do, they have an awful long recharge time.
Song of restoration,for example, should have a recharge time at least under 10.

And don't get my started on tactics...

Some large repairs for rit/para/monk, then a little bit of love toward everything else.

Rework ursan at the same time so these whiners shut up, even though it will probably be used no matter how much it gets nerfed because the team synergy gives it power, not the skill.

I so hope that was scarcasm .

The division is bad, it'll make transition between the two modes totally unattractive. Expect less influx.

Nerf PvE skills a lot please and shoot the bear before introducing more powercreep.

I am curious if GW2 will face the same split or if it won't due to lesser skills and professions. Let's see.

Song and Ballad of Restoration can keep up AR. Motigon is still cool.

Apologies, changed it.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10287497

How are players marginalised ? Everyone gets to play the game they want to play ? Profits for players still remain the same, only difference is, there are more builds out there which are better for farming.

With the toggle, Players can still earn as much as they currently were, when the PvE/PvP split did not exist. Just that now, Players who are intent on using the PvE rules set, might earn more.

Since UB builds are already aknowledged as the best way PvE wise, bringing other non UB builds up to the same level, just provides more variety for farming.( Unless you are arguing on the grounds that the reversions done will significantly outweigh present ones. )

Thus, the only way profits you mentioned will be sacrificed, is if you decide to benchmark yourself against others. Say a PvE rule based Skill system player against a PvP rule based Skill system player.

Of which, leads me to deduce that, you are actually a dominator. You fear that others will have a far easier time to catch up with you, one way or another. You are indeed threatened that others can make more profit then you.

Nope. I want a fun game. It is a game after all, and I want to enjoy it. I want to see as many viable build choices as possible. The more the merrier. I don't much care for the current state of affairs where each class is trending towards just 1 optimal build for the whole class (imbagon, god-mode dragon slash, DB/MS, etc.) or is just flat-out inferior to every other class (mesmer). I want to see every skill line for every class have a viable build that I'd be happy to play and happy to let into my parties -- and two or three would be even better.

And that IS balance. "Balance" in PvE isn't about balancing skills; it's about (roughly) balancing classes and, to a lesser degree, skill lines so that each one is fun, able to overcome the monsters in any given zone, and roughly equally-desirable to any other when "competing" for a place in a party.

And that calls for buffs. Lots of buffs even, because there's a huge dearth of viable build options out there. Nerfs are rarely called for in PvE because they are only needed when you have one build so outperforming everything else that it cuts into the others' ability to get parties. Which is why Ursan is just about the only nerf I could agree with for PvE reasons. (And I'm still a little unsure that Ursan is really diverting people who would otherwise be available for parties in elite zones instead of merely importing a bunch of "noobs" who wouldn't play those zones at all without Ursan...)

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Apparently, you did not read. Let me repeat myself, this time in bold so you can't miss it: Removing the timer isn't about making SR more powerful, it IS about fixing a whole bunch of problems caused by the timer's extremely poor design.

Now, here's a list of things removing the timer accomplishes aside from increasing the energy gain:
1. First and foremost, it makes the necromancer class more FUN to play.
2. It makes SR intuitive again.
3. It fixes the problem with SR punishing you for playing well/rewarding you for playing poorly.
4. It fixes the problem with what should be consistent being totally random. This, in turn, makes playing necromancer less frustrating. It also makes "energy management" possible again, because you finally know how much energy you're going to have for each fight. (Though you'd need to be able to plan for and spend down a pretty sizable amount of energy -- and all the idiotic "I couldn't run out of energy if tried" comments posted on the topic make me think that many, even most, people were never using SR to its fullest before it got nerfed.)
5. It fixes the timing problem where you get a corpse but no energy to exploit it with. (If combined with Carinae's suggestion, it also fixes the converse problem of energy with no corpse to exploit, and fixes the problematic energy-sharing ability that powers Sabway.)
6. It fixes the anti-synergy between the minion cap and SR, and makes Shambling Horror finally not a monumentally stupid skill to bring because it won't screw up your SR when it chain reacts.

ALL of the above are problems with SR that need fixed. Removing the timer fixes them. That's what's important. The increase in energy gain is totally secondary, and, if it turns out to be problematic, could be counteracted by a more elegant nerf directly to the energy gain.

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On the topic of removing the minion cap:

1. First and foremost, it would make the game more fun. If you ever played with a huge minion army back in the day, I probably don't have to convince you of this. If you never did, then I hope you'll get a chance to soon.

2. Just to be clear (because there was some confusion in the other thread), the minion cap was a solely PvP-motivated nerf. It came directly out of the whining from the Factions preview weekend that they would be too powerful in AB. I cannot recall ever hearing a single person back in Prophecies complaining about MM's being too powerful or making PvE too easy or ruining the game or any other such nonsense.
(Ironically, it turned out to be a stupid nerf from the PvP standpoint too. Instead of becoming "a step above Guild Battles" like it was intended to be, AB ended up "a step below RA." And we don't exactly make balance changes around RA, do we? Moreover, after a few weeks, intelligent ABers realized that the dominant strategy for AB isn't to engage to opposing team at all, but rather to mobilize and capture unguarded shrines. Slow-moving MM's are terrible at that, and the only thing they can do well is distract any idiots on the opposing team from doing what they're supposed to be doing.)

3. There's two major reasons that unlimited minions would not turn into an Ursan-grade steamroller:

A. The minions have stayed pretty much the same, but the monsters have gotten a lot stronger. I think a lot of this "oh no, it'll be a steamroller" panic comes from memories of steamrolling lvl 24 dwarves in Sorrow's Furnace. Well, since then, the average end game monster has increased in level to level 28, monsters have benefited from power-creep among skills, monsters have gained more cheesy monster-only skills (enraged anyone?), and, on top of all of that, there's Hard Mode. In short, monster damage has increased enough that minions only survive one or two attacks from many of the tougher monsters, while monster armor and life have increased enough that, without damage buffs, minions can barely scratch the tougher monsters.

B. There's no way to heal an army that big. Verata's Sacrifice was nerfed to dust, remember? The life sacrifice on BotM scales with the number of minions healed, so you'd kill yourself instantly if you tried to heal an old-school 50+ minion army with BotM. Even with AotL, the life sacrifice required for an army of that size would be too risky in terms of getting spiked out or accidentally/lag-induced hitting the skill twice in a row. Feast for the Dead has never been viable because the recharge is so long that the heal/sec can't keep up with minions' natural degen. Having more minions around doesn't fix that. Even if the hard cap is removed, the lack of a decent minion heal is going to impose a soft cap much lower than the size of the minion armies of old.

4. To add some variety and make MM more interesting, I'd like to add a couple places where the player is forced to choose between army quality and size.

A. I would like to see Verata's Sacrifice returned to it's pre-Factions state, but with an additional effect of doubling your life sacrifices for its duration to prevent VS and BotM from working in the same build. That would make things a bit more interesting by giving players a choice between a weak heal that could potentially support a larger army, but doesn't do much against monster damage; or a stronger heal that can do better at keeping up with monster damage, but couldn't be used on a large army.

B. I would leave Order of Undeath exactly as it is. The life sacrifice would get prohibitively big with a large army. So the player would have to choose between a small army that could use the nice buff from OoU, or a larger army that couldn't. (@ Arcane: The recharge on Vampiric Horror is too long to build a large army out of solely, or even mostly, vampiric horrors, so the size limit would be enforced another way.)

5. MM is often criticized as a "braindead" activity. Removing the minion cap would help fix that. Presuming an adequate supply of corpses, you've got to be pretty terrible not to be able to maintain 10 minions. (Though I do see people who somehow manage to fail at it...) In this way, the minion cap forces everyone to play at the lowest common denominator. Remove the cap and suddenly skill matters again. When being good at MM means you have twice as many or four times as many minions as someone who's bad at it, suddenly there's an incentive to learn how to play the build well. Similarly, trying to find a way to balance strong skills with scaling life sacrifices (BotM, OoU) against a larger army is a wonderful build-design challenge that should keep us busy in the necromancer forum for months, and will probably lead to several very different families of "good" MM builds instead of the one we have right now.


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A general comment on this thread:

I don't think this was meant to be another thread for debating the merits of doing the PvE/PvP Split. There's already a thread for that; it got closed; you can petition the mods to reopen it if you feel you have an important comment to add. I think posts in this thread need to start by accepting that the PvE/PvP Split is going to happen, getting over it, and then thinking about what we want to happen to PvE. There's 3 or 4 pages of comments/complaints (and thinly-veiled comments/complaints) on the merits of the PvE/PvP Split that I really think ought to be deleted or moved to the other thread.

Thank you Chthon, the intent of this thread was to make comments about what you would want to see changed or reverted back for PvE "FUN" play. You have very valid points and I hope others can read your post with an open mind.

I would like to see Avatar of Grenth back to its old form...now that was fun and hax.

I agree, Chthon... The point of splitting PvE and PvP was to restore changes that damaged variety in PvE.

I did read, I just disagree with all your points. Which means, and I repeat: the only thing that accomplishes is more energy. Here, let's go over each point, k?

Disagree - easier does not equal more fun. I'm having plenty of fun with my necro still. If you aren't, are you entirely sure that's due to the timer and not something else you don't want to acknowledge?

I don't see what makes SR's current form "non-intuitive." Just saying that doesn't make it so; you're going to have to prove it, too.

The timer doesn't punish you for playing well - it rewards you less when your team does well. This is actually a good thing. Why would you need more energy if your team is killing efficiently enough that everything dies within 15 seconds? If a battle lasts longer, you have more energy gain - which is perfect because you'll likely need it.

This I somewhat agree with, but only because of the very nature of the Soul Reaping mechanic - with or without timer. This is why SR is the most broken primary in the game, and not well thought out. It is undependable energy 'management,' and it always has been. During major boss fights, the necro becomes fairly useless, but during massive mob battles, the necro becomes a god. A timer doesn't change this, just makes it more apparent because you tend to rely on that energy gain a bit more.

I fail to see that as a problem. Either wait for the next death outside the window, or everything is already dead and you don't need to exploit the corpse. If you need it for minions, just wait around as if you're waiting for a recharge. The effect is negligible and does not need to be addressed, especially for how rare it is to be out of energy with a minion army.

There is no 'anti-synergy' there - the minion cap ensures that there is a constant flow of deaths to fuel SR when the time comes. If anything, it makes the SR effect much more stable, as you can count on getting a flow of energy every 15 seconds, so cast like crazy.

That's the thing, the increase of energy gain is much more of a problem than all of these minor annoyances combined. Especially when these minor annoyances are not agreed upon by all necro players, therefore just a subjective thing - "I hate it, so it must be bad."

There is a lot of speculation going on about the extent of the changes that will be made. The developers have stressed to me that they are approaching the PvP/PvE skill separation with caution. They won't be changing all skills, just a few skills.

Variety in pve nowadays?

Most pvers are already using a skill that's pve only... Splitting pve and pvp without working on it won't change anything.

Yes and we are discussing what few skills we (PvE players in general) would like to see changed.

Shelter, Union, Displacement & Spirit Lord
GFTE, Aggressive Refrain
Watch Yourselves
Light of Deliverance

These seem to be the root of may grievances for PvE over kill because of PvP. You can pass these skills as suggestions along please.

Thank you for reading.

Agreed, none of these changes matter when Ursan is stronger than everything, prenerfed or not.

I am going to quote Ensign in the GA, since I don't think you go there. (Ensign is one of the more well known players...he pretty much did all the work to try and figure out critical rates of weapons with attributes etc by hitting shit 8000 times, spell/attacks striking body parts and finding out spells never strike hands, etc...)

PLEASE make verata's sacrifice worth a damn......

Really doesn't matter what ArenaNet does. You people would complain regardless.

Only the forums would, really. It's hard to determine what the main chunk of the populous would think of many of the game's changes.

i think........................... every skill should be changed to "Your are enchanted with this skill for 10 seconds. After 10 seconds, this skill ends" 5 energy, 2 sec cast, 25 second recharge.

concise description: "Skill. Izzy > you. kthx.

Than, the game woudln't be imba cause everyone would have 8 of the same skills that do nothing.

/lolsign

/randomaction