Developer Updates PvP/PvE Skill Balancing - May 21st - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

BlackSephir

Forge Runner

Join Date: Nov 2006

A/N

21 May 2008 at 21:57 - 121

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

I've also had another thought:

For all the discussion (ahem) about balancing Ursan, you've just got it in a round about way.

Yes, making other skills more powerful in PvE gives you the OPTION to be more powerful.

Whether you choose to take that option is another thing, but you certainly can't complain that Ursan is too over powered when this (and future) balancing has powered up other skills and builds.

Wow, outstanding logic right there.
1 uber overpowered skill = bad
A normal person would say that more uber overpowered skills = even worse
What do people say?
More uber overpowered skills = better

It seems funny but I feel like crying

"Hai guise, with pve skills and eotn we gave you the ability to steamroll elite areas in hm with just pressing 1-2-3 keys. We feel that to fix this, we have to make steamrolling everything even easier so we're buffing stuff, so you can choose- should I steamroll this area with ursan or some newly buffed skills? THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!1"

super strokey

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2006

Soviet Canuckistan

N/

21 May 2008 at 21:59 - 122

Man guys dont be so negative, Looks like a good update to me

ProgTes

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Feb 2007

Under that rock.

We Demand A Shrubbery [Ni]

W/E

21 May 2008 at 21:59 - 123

LoD is back, yay at that. /facepalm at Shadow Form. Yay for incoming but seriously... it seems Izzy has never heard the term Imbagon before. PvE is so unbelievable easy...

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

21 May 2008 at 22:03 - 124

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

I've also had another thought:

For all the discussion (ahem) about balancing Ursan, you've just got it in a round about way.

Yes, making other skills more powerful in PvE gives you the OPTION to be more powerful.

Whether you choose to take that option is another thing, but you certainly can't complain that Ursan is too over powered when this (and future) balancing has powered up other skills and builds.

I'll agree with this statement, once there are builds that are as powerful as ursan.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

21 May 2008 at 22:09 - 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

"Hai guise, with pve skills and eotn we gave you the ability to steamroll elite areas in hm with just pressing 1-2-3 keys. We feel that to fix this, we have to make steamrolling everything even easier so we're buffing stuff, so you can choose- should I steamroll this area with ursan or some newly buffed skills? THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!1"

Indeed, apparently Anet wants to empower us with the choice of which skill icon we want to be on our effects list while we beat elite areas with our 1-2-3 counting skillz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Hey guys I'd like to remind you this is till just a preview....the actual update will be bigger.

We can only hope that whoever decided to make this preview was high and picked 90% retarded crap. WooHoo! 20 second recharge Energy Drain, Mesmers so own PvE now. /sarcasm

Leighwyn

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2005

Seattle

Limbo

Mo/E

21 May 2008 at 22:13 - 126

I saw some mentioning the possibility of infinite SF without /Me now, but could someone explain that to me?

As I see it, 5..30 is for 0..15 spec, so @16 you'd get 32sec following that pattern. This would get boosted to 38 with an enchant mod, which comes up short of the DP 40-sec recharge?

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

21 May 2008 at 22:15 - 127

yeah brilliant idea to have a game balance that gives a skill nerf to useful things like bsurge and wards in a physical heavy meta 2 days before the monthly. Absolutely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing brilliant...

StormDragonZ

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2008

New York

W/R

21 May 2008 at 22:18 - 128

Makes me wonder how it will be now for the mission The Eternal Grove... now that the Afflicted Assassin boss who uses Shadow Form got a big hug.

PvE change to Warrior and Ranger is the only thing that will help my characters. My heroes are unaffected...

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

21 May 2008 at 22:28 - 129

Hooray for the PvE version of Ancestor's!
Henshin a Go-Go Baby!

Thanks babez!

Zinger314

Debbie Downer

Join Date: May 2006

N/Me

21 May 2008 at 22:37 - 130

Considering how hyped the PvE/PvP split was, the amount of changes is incredibly dissappointing. Most of the skills buffed (LoD, etc.) people used anyways. (albeit Ether Renewal is a surprise, and Ritual Lord with <10 sec recharge spirits might make me want to play my Ritualist.)

PS; What's with Discord? Now it's just an elite Necrosis...

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

21 May 2008 at 22:39 - 131

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackSephir

"Hai guise, with pve skills and eotn we gave you the ability to steamroll elite areas in hm with just pressing 1-2-3 keys. We feel that to fix this, we have to make steamrolling everything even easier so we're buffing stuff, so you can choose- should I steamroll this area with ursan or some newly buffed skills? THE CHOICE IS YOURS!!!1"

I think Anet should give us GWAMM and all PvE titles upon completing all 3 campaigns and the expansion while they're doing this.

If they're giving us this sort of power, they might as well.

Meh, I'm going to cry now...QQ

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

21 May 2008 at 22:46 - 132

i may have missed something but: how the hell is buffing E-denial skills helping pve player mesmers?

on the other hand it does help pve mobs...maybe that was the aim?

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

21 May 2008 at 22:50 - 133

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

yeah brilliant idea to have a game balance that gives a skill nerf to useful things like bsurge and wards in a physical heavy meta 2 days before the monthly. Absolutely RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing brilliant...

Haha QFT. I'm relieved I don't even bother with PvP these days because this patch will be stoo-ped. The PvE changes are welcome though.

I'm off to play some balanced PvP...

...on Mario Kart Wii.

DutchSmurf

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2006

21 May 2008 at 22:52 - 134

For PvE, only a few skill changes actually matter. Considering the hype, this is really disappointing. Also because the Imbagon and Ursan still stand.
For PvP, this update is done for a meta that was the complete opposite of the one we have now. Doing nerfs aimed at blockway in a pressure heavy meta is just hilarious.

In other words, Anet has no idea what is happening in its own game.

SerenitySilverstar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

21 May 2008 at 22:53 - 135

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Considering how hyped the PvE/PvP split was

Actually, the only hype came from the community. Anet released a few paragraphs of info in the dev update. The community has spend page upon page in threads going ape.

Quote: "We will do this as sparingly as possible and start with very few skills. So that we don't confuse players, we intend to keep as many skills unchanged as we can."

For those saying "this is bigger than they said it would be" quote: "We've decided to release our next skill balance update simultaneously with these changes."

Magikarp

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2007

[HAWK]

21 May 2008 at 23:11 - 136

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zinger314

Considering how hyped the PvE/PvP split was, the amount of changes is incredibly dissappointing. Most of the skills buffed (LoD, etc.) people used anyways. (albeit Ether Renewal is a surprise, and Ritual Lord with <10 sec recharge spirits might make me want to play my Ritualist.)

PS; What's with Discord? Now it's just an elite Necrosis...

the hype was the fault of the community, not to mention, this is a preview of the final (Jesus..) results, which we can only assume will be.. a lot more... i might need a hug before this is all said and done with...

... or a new game

Esan

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2007

Wars

21 May 2008 at 23:14 - 137

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

yeah brilliant idea to have a game balance that gives a skill nerf to useful things like bsurge and wards in a physical heavy meta 2 days before the monthly.

Oh be fair. When has the GvG meta not been physical heavy in recent memory?

Antheus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jan 2006

21 May 2008 at 23:14 - 138

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

Makes me wonder how it will be now for the mission The Eternal Grove... now that the Afflicted Assassin boss who uses Shadow Form got a big hug.

If only there were some AoE enchant removal skill that works against shadow form.....

But who am I kidding - just use Ursan.

Dr Strangelove

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Dec 2005

Wasting away again in Margaritaville

[HOTR]

21 May 2008 at 23:16 - 139

I find it minorly amusing that most of the reversions for PvE are completely insignificant.

Quote:

Assassin's Remedy: 5 Energy cost (PvE) vs. 10 Energy cost (PvP).

Who runs shattering assault sins and the like in PvE?

Quote:

Energy Drain: 20 sec recharge (PvE) vs. 25 sec recharge (PvP)
Energy Tap: 20 sec recharge, 2 sec cast (PvE) vs. 25 sec recharge, 3 sec cast (PvP)

5 seconds is pretty meaningless when most other energy management options are stronger. When these were nerfed way back when, the energy return per cast was hit, playing with the recharges doesn't matter much.

Quote:

Discord: 1 sec cast (PvE) vs. 2 sec cast (PvP)

Necrosis exists.

Quote:

Enfeeble: 5 sec recharge (PvE) vs. 10 sec recharge (PvP).

Everyone uses enfeebling blood in PvE.

Quote:

Ritual Lord: 15..75% reduces spirit recharge (PvE) vs. 15..51% (PvP)

Energy issues stemming from an increase to the costs of communing spirits and a nerf to boon of creation killed this build. Rit lord doesn't matter much if you can't spam 25e spirits every few seconds.

Quote:

Ancestors' Rage: 0.25 sec cast (PvE) vs. 1 sec cast (PvP)

Right, 1/4 second matters in PvE

Quote:

Flesh of My Flesh: 4 sec recharge (PvE) vs. 10 sec recharge (PvP)

Right, rez chains happen in the middle of combat in PvE

Quote:

Penetrating/Sundering Attack: 5..25 damage (PvE) vs. 3..9 damage (PvP)

Recharge is still nerfed

Quote:

"Incoming!": 1..5 sec duration (PvE) vs. 1..3 sec duration (PvP)

5 seconds still sucks. This lasted 10ish seconds when everyone used it.

Quote:

Defensive Anthem: 1 sec cast (PvE) vs. 2 sec cast (PvP)

Yeah, that 1 second was the killer in PvE, not the duration or recharge.

Quote:

Harrier's Toss: 0.5 sec activation (PvE) vs. 1 sec activation (PvP)

Awesome, now my PvE spikes against moving targets are half a second faster.

Quote:

Mystic Sweep: 0.75 sec activation (PvE) vs. 1 sec activation (PvP)
Eremite's Attack: 0.75 sec activation (PvE) vs. 1 sec activation (PvP)

Recharge is still nerfed.

Tyla

Emo Goth Italics

Join Date: Sep 2006

21 May 2008 at 23:17 - 140

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

Oh be fair. When has the GvG meta not been physical heavy in recent memory?

Yeah, it's only Conjure + Strength and Honour being stacked with 3 frontliners.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

21 May 2008 at 23:23 - 141

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I find it minorly amusing that most of the reversions for PvE are completely insignificant.

Who runs shattering assault sins and the like in PvE?

5 seconds is pretty meaningless when most other energy management options are stronger. When these were nerfed way back when, the energy return per cast was hit, playing with the recharges doesn't matter much.

Necrosis exists.

Everyone uses enfeebling blood in PvE.

Energy issues stemming from an increase to the costs of communing spirits and a nerf to boon of creation killed this build. Rit lord doesn't matter much if you can't spam 25e spirits every few seconds.

Right, 1/4 second matters in PvE

Right, rez chains happen in the middle of combat in PvE

Recharge is still nerfed

5 seconds still sucks. This lasted 10ish seconds when everyone used it.

Yeah, that 1 second was the killer in PvE, not the duration or recharge.

Awesome, now my PvE spikes against moving targets are half a second faster.

Recharge is still nerfed.

PvP nerfs. They're just reverting stuff for PvE.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

21 May 2008 at 23:25 - 142

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Actually, the only hype came from the community. Anet released a few paragraphs of info in the dev update. The community has spend page upon page in threads going ape.

Quote: "We will do this as sparingly as possible and start with very few skills. So that we don't confuse players, we intend to keep as many skills unchanged as we can."

For those saying "this is bigger than they said it would be" quote: "We've decided to release our next skill balance update simultaneously with these changes."

The quote "We will do this as sparingly as possible" implies that they wouldn't make useless trash changes just for the heck of it. 80% of these changes fall under that category. 2 of the changes are even worse, they are pretty much universally agreed on to be bad (ether renewal and shadow form). Seriously, infinite energy on any caster class and promoting invulnerability? Shameful.

snaek

Forge Runner

Join Date: Mar 2006

N/

21 May 2008 at 23:34 - 143

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Something tells me little thought went into this buff.

do the skill balancers even play teh dam game?

jhu

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jun 2007

21 May 2008 at 23:36 - 144

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

If only there were some AoE enchant removal skill that works against shadow form.....

But who am I kidding - just use Ursan.

or even a signet, a mesmer signet...

but yeah, just use ursan, hehe

SerenitySilverstar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

21 May 2008 at 23:52 - 145

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

80% of these changes fall under that category.

Opinion, not fact.

Quote:

universally agreed on

Through anecdotal evidence.

Armchair critics abound - you have no clue what goes in to balancing skills. Instead of LOLing your head off at the Devs, read that recent article, especially where Izzy talks about how hard it is to balance the skills, not only against each other, but in all forms of play. This has been said over and over again in the life span of the game.

"Because I said so" is not a reason for them to insitute your opinions on what constitutes skill balance.

Giga_Gaia

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Sep 2006

Travelling around Tyria, Cantha, and Elona

P/W

21 May 2008 at 23:53 - 146

Man, so much negativity... at least they're trying, and I applaud the effort. As others have said, they've made the effort to at least un-nerf the ever popular LoD and WY! Since this is only the initial phase, let's not jump to conclusions yet shall we?

uby

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

P/

22 May 2008 at 00:01 - 147

as has been stated in the past, i hope this is an all-or-nothing effort. changing 25 skills in the game doesn't seem to be worth developer time, nor the added confusion for players.

if many or most of the skills have varied stats, then that would be something to always look for. by making it the rule and not the exception, it makes it easier to deal with. if it's the exception rather than the rule, then it seems to just become a burden to remember what skills are different.

most of these changes seem inconsequential, and some seem unbalanced. i hope that whoever is in charge of skill balancing seeks help from the community if they are overwhelmed -- we can provide a vast body of rapid and informed feedback that a handful of developers can't.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

22 May 2008 at 00:14 - 148

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Opinion, not fact.

Fact: E-Denial is useless in PvE, and there are better ways for mesmers to gain energy then energy drain/tap
Fact: Discord is elite Necrosis, with an extra condition to meet.
Fact: Spirit Lord builds can't even use the elites increased recharge, spirits are far too expensive and too short lasting.
Fact: Incoming is an underpowered version of save yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Through anecdotal evidence.

Ether renewal + aura of restoration + any other long lasting enchant = every spell returns 12 energy and will heal the user for between 70 and 100 health. Every Single Cast. If you don't think that is an overpowered skill you have been playing too much ursan. In fact, if you are playing ursan there is a good chance you will see E/Mo healers in those groups. Heal Party costs them 3 energy. Ether Renewal was nerfed FOR A REASON.

Shadow form buff is just retarded, end of story.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Armchair critics abound - you have no clue what goes in to balancing skills. Instead of LOLing your head off at the Devs, read that recent article, especially where Izzy talks about how hard it is to balance the skills, not only against each other, but in all forms of play. This has been said over and over again in the life span of the game.

"Because I said so" is not a reason for them to insitute your opinions on what constitutes skill balance.

Umm, the whole point of the PvE/PvP split was that it would be far easier to balance PvP and PvE separately. Point me to ANY one PvE area where some of these trash buffs have a positive effect. The good part of this update is strictly WY and LoD

Lhim

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Rt/

22 May 2008 at 00:15 - 149

Quote:

Originally Posted by Longasc

Shadow Form has one use in PvE, farming.

They care for Farmers and buff all skills to heaven.

What did I actually expect from a balancer that basically said pve is for idiots and that people like imba skills.

My thoughts exactly.

SerenitySilverstar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

22 May 2008 at 00:24 - 150

A Fact is: The sky is blue
An Opinion is: E-denial is useless.

The difference is emotive language, based on your subjective experience.

Everything, EVERYTHING, you do in this game is subjective. Therefore, NOTHING you say is a fact.

Uby - "rapid"? Yes, there is that. There's also "overwhelmingly subjective". "Informed"? No, only what we PERSONALLY want from the game.

When 3 million players have 3 million opinions on what should be in the game, the mind simply boggles.

This new split system is only just beginning. Let's give it some time to see how it works.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

22 May 2008 at 00:26 - 151

Quote:

An Opinion is: E-denial is useless.

It's not an opinion. It's actually useless in PvE, other than hardcore energy denial in farming. Enemies have a massive amount of energy and god knows how many pips of energy regen. Really, it's useless.

Quote:

This new split system is only just beginning. Let's give it some time to see how it works.

Don't mean to insult ANet, but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say don't get your hopes up on any update they make.

sph0nz

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

none.

W/

22 May 2008 at 00:28 - 152

This is stupid; pretty useless PvE buffs, especially Shadow Form. Ugh. I don't really like this update, but it's not terrible I guess. Also, I really don't see any problem with something like Assassin's Remedy being 10E for PvE as well as PvP. It's not as if that is going to actually matter in PvE.

Cathode_Reborn

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2006

22 May 2008 at 00:29 - 153

If a monster lived long enough to be competely E-denied, your team must be really really bad or using wand damage to kill stuff...

SerenitySilverstar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

22 May 2008 at 00:29 - 154

Just because two people have the same opinion, still doesn't make it a fact.

Arkantos

The Greatest

Join Date: Feb 2006

W/

22 May 2008 at 00:32 - 155

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Just because two people have the same opinion, still doesn't make it a fact.

Let's look at the facts:

Monsters in PvE have a massive amount of energy
Monsters in PvE have quite a few pips of energy regen
Most energy denial skills make your opponent lose 10 or less energy

Seems useless to me. But please, if this is a mere opinion, prove me wrong.

SerenitySilverstar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

22 May 2008 at 00:33 - 156

I agree about monster set up Arkantos, but one skill does not a monster kill.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

22 May 2008 at 00:38 - 157

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

A Fact is: The sky is blue
An Opinion is: E-denial is useless.
The difference is emotive language, based on your subjective experience.
Everything, EVERYTHING, you do in this game is subjective. Therefore, NOTHING you say is a fact.
Uby - "rapid"? Yes, there is that. There's also "overwhelmingly subjective". "Informed"? No, only what we PERSONALLY want from the game.
When 3 million players have 3 million opinions on what should be in the game, the mind simply boggles.
This new split system is only just beginning. Let's give it some time to see how it works.

Right. Give me your subjective experience in which you have found energy denial useful. Right now energy denial being useless is even more true then that the sky is blue (since it can assume multiple colors).

'Giving it some time to work' isn't what we want. Noone wants the hundreds of skills to have different PvE and PvP versions, that would be horribly complicated and impossible to figure out. We want a small amount of selected skills to have differences between PvE and PvP, ones in which the difference will produce a positive effect. Tell me how 20s vs 25s recharge on energy tap is positively effecting PvE? Its useless clutter and if further PvE changes are like this we will end up with every skill having different PvP and PvE differences just because we can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SerenitySilverstar

Just because two people have the same opinion, still doesn't make it a fact.

If there are no people that share any differing opinion's, then our opinion wins by default. If you want to give an example in which energy drain will somehow cause an enemy to lose all energy please present your case.

Ork Pride

Banned

Join Date: May 2005

22 May 2008 at 00:46 - 158

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing finally they separated the two.

SerenitySilverstar

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: May 2006

22 May 2008 at 00:47 - 159

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

Right. Give me your subjective experience in which you have found energy denial useful.

Ok. I don't play an edenial mes, but I run a warrior build that includes "Fear Me". It doesn't kill the monster, but it does slow them down, which is more the intention of most skills.

Quote:

what we want. Noone wants

Quit talking for me, and everyone else. You have no idea what we want or don't want, outside of a select few opinions in one thread in one small community.

Quote:

horribly complicated and impossible to figure out.

The devs have recognized this, and are not making it complicated. The only thing complicating the issue is the human inability to move with change.

Quote:

Tell me how 20s vs 25s recharge on energy tap is positively effecting PvE?

With this skill, and any other, I don't know until I've tried it. As I said before, one skill does not kill a monster, or makes a build, or makes a team.

Quote:

If there are no people that share any differing opinion's, then our opinion wins by default.

That you think you have to "win" a discussion shows you really don't know how informed debate really goes.

Quote:

If you want to give an example in which energy drain will somehow cause an enemy to lose all energy please present your case.

There isn't, and I never said there was. Broken record, but...a skill is only part of a build and a team.

shoyon456

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jul 2006

D/

22 May 2008 at 00:49 - 160

I know im going to get /flamed for this, but why no derv pve buffing with this new system?

Id expected Avatar of Melandru to change in some small way at least...