The Madness That Is Ether Renewal

Complete non sequitur

The crime remains illegal, however, if the actions that constitute the crime are not undertaken, no crime is committed, thus no illegality has occurred.

I searched and did not find it invalidiated in any sense. So be so kind and present this to me in logical fashion.

That's funny, because every time that argument is used, someone turns into a carebear.

I suppose you'll still use the same argument again if this skill actually gets implimented. Which it won't.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=257

I hate to have to quote myself from the same thread, but it was easier than searching for it being said elsewhere.

The 'refutation' is nothing of the sort. Let me rephrase: "If you don't like the game, you don't have to play it". It's ANet's game and they are free to do with it whatever they well wish, including completely redesigning it, and it's your choice to either (a) play the game as it is or (b) not play the game because it doesn't meet your criteria of a good game or (c) create a better game yourself, or finally (d) be a pathetic loser and whine here when ANet's vision doesn't coincide with yours.

It doesn't matter anymore. Whatever A-net does, you'll QQ. Nerf this, nerf that; new cookie builds that everyone wants to use will come up, so you'll QQ that you're gimping yourself if you don't use those builds. Then what? More nerfs and the cycle continues. I believe this applies to both pvp and pve.

I believe you'll find that almost all of the good players have accepted your terms.

I suppose your next stop is to tell every movie critic that Star Wars was fantastic, is George Lucas's to develop freely, and saying that the later versions are utter crap compared to the older ones is to be a pathetic loser.

It may come as a shock that players can address the game from the perspective of a customer wishing to see the product improved. A product that is generally agreed was better in the older times. It may also interest you to consider the fact that the developers are just people - they have to make decisions to develop the game, and I'll bet you whatever you like that the developers are not as good at, or as experienced in the play of their own game as portions of the playerbase. This is why intelligent playerbase response is important, because if the devs spend all their time playtesting they don't get anything done promptly.

It doesn't take a genius to see where ANet makes design mistakes that have led to greater problems. The issue of profession imbalance in PvE was highlighted years ago, due to the deviation of PvE design into boosting numbers. This has since been the subject of immense work in producing band-aid fixes. This is time that could have gone into fixing the root problem, and making the game better overall. ArenaNet did one thing right - start afresh in GW2 and fix everything from the ground up.

When ANet makes changes that seem ridiculous, it diminishes the trust players have that ANet will use GW2 to fix the old mistakes that blighted their unique and original game design. It diminishes the trust players have that ANet will continue with an original vision that filled a niche in the market. Most importantly, it decreases the will of players to want to put up with the terrible community relations and development blunders yet again in a new product.

Either contribute to the discussion, or get out.

Not matter how you put it, it is basically "Shut up" argument. "Ad silencium" where you claim that discussion object is resolved by not discussing it or by ignoring it.

Example:
Mary: Abortion laws in Poland are outrageous.
Jezslo: You are not polish, they don't effect you.

Example:
John: Death sentence is wrong because innocent can be convicted for crimes he didn't commit and be executed.
Jerry: Don't commit homicide then.

It does not state anything of value, and you might as well use "STFU, GFTO" instead of it.

@ all QQ-ers about how "imba" skills ruin the PvE game:

How on earth is it NOT valid??? I truly TRULY fail to see how person X using whatever build, imbalanced or not, affects the enjoyment of person Y's gameplay. The statement: "Don't like it, don't use it" is perfectly valid imho. I will admit I like ursan and SF just like many players (who also post here), and I will surely try this ether renewal build too. It looks like fun to me. But that doesn't mean I use them ALL the time! I like to be able to change my builds. I like to try stuff, but I also like to do something the "easy" way from time to time. I don't always have the time to play the "hard way" with balanced builds (I have a life you know). I like the fact Anet made this possible for PvE players. What do YOU care how I choose to play??? please please please do explain that to me. With a GOOD argument please. Anet never forced anyone to play with me or any other player who likes to use these "imba" skills. Furthermore, in ALL my playing years in GW, I have NEVER heard ANYONE complain to me in my party about me using ursan or whatever. So how come people complain on and on and on on Guru?

Would have been a lot more constructive had you provided the link, but okay, so I've searched for it, and didn't find anything that would permanently and definitively invalidate the argument...

I did read this one:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...nce+a rgument

In this thread someone said:

SO WHAT? Are you a bad player? I don't think you see yourself as a bad player now do you? So do YOU use skills that blow stuff up quick and easily? Probably not, because if you did, you'd be a "bad player" by your own statement. So there you go: You don't like skills that go "boom", so you don't use them. Otherwise you'd be a "bad" player.
I think calling people bad players just because they like to use skillbars that make the game easier to beat total nonsense. Isn't that the WHOLE POINT of creating builds? Isn't that what GW is all about??? This is a game that lets you create a skillbar, combining skills to beat the game as efficiently as possible. That's the whole idea! It doens't make people bad players! Doesn't everyone create new and effective builds? Don't YOU? Does this make you a bad player as well then? Of course not! So saying others are bad because they use a build that might be overpowered is hypocracy, because everybody tries to make builds as efficient as possible. That's the purpose of the game. Imho it makes people BETTER players if they manage to think of builds that are more efficient.


THAT was an exploit/glitch, not a skill. Therefore this is not a valid argument.

The exaggerated example stated above by the OP is total BS. I shall explain why:
* because a skill like that would instantly kill all enemies in range, and THAT would obviously spoil the fun for others in the party. true. But NONE of the (in your eyes) "imba" skills make the PvE experience too easy for the entire GW player base.
* And it is also NOT what people are asking for. Nobody ASKED for any of these skills. Anet just created them and people use them. Your example is overly exagerated and therefore not valid.

Sure enough the existing "overpowered" skills will make things easier for players who read these forums and are experienced enough to know how to combine these skills to take maximum advantage of them, but trust me, not everyone reads these forums, and not everyone sees these advantages. And even if they did, what of it??? How could that possibly ruin YOUR gameplay?

If you feel that you're all too leet to play the imba skills, then do it your way. Play the "hard" way. I'm fine with that. Couldn't care less! Cookies for you for being leet enough not to need overpowered skills. But please stop QQ-ing about how OTHERS choose to play. I like doing things the easy way once in a while, as do many others. Stop giving people a hard time about it! Leave them alone! ...sheesh!!!

Comparing abortion and death sentances with skills in a game... And you want to be taken seriously?

explain why? I have never ever kicked a person from any party because he/she didn't use an overpowered skill. If you think you've got a fine build, use it by all means! I might learn from your tactics even. All the better. I really don't think every single GW player will not want to play with you just because you dislike using ursan for example. There are millions of players, so you'll never have to play alone. Saying you do because of a few overpowered skills exist is not a very valid statement imho.

</rant>

to quote Savio:
That's so true, thankfully. And it seems all complaining players are here, at guru, busy complaining instead of playing ^^

"Don't like it, don't use it" works great.... if you like playing online games alone.

Nobody gives a damn about person X's gameplay, or what effect it will have. The issue, as has been stated repeatedly, is that is shows ANet is willing to destroy the depth of its game to sell out to the lowest common denominator rather than making a quality product with actual depth and challenge.

This is an issue with the Developers, not an issue with others' play.

Actually that's flawed.
Same way as is this:
The state decides if an action is illegal.
Same thing here - A.Net decides if something is actually a problem.

PvE only skills essentially go against the original premise of the game, and that's why some players do not like them. Furthermore, they were implemented into the game badly (linked to title tracks), which essentially "forces" grind to achieve maximum benefit from the skills, even though the way they have been implemented has given an "incentive" to grind titles.

Skills like [skill]Ursan Blessing[/skill] can affect my gameplay regardless if I'm actually using it at the time or not. Particularly, this is self evident if you play in PUGs, who often require players to have a high norn rank along with ursan. I however, have avoided the problem of ursan by simply playing the game almost entirely with heroes and henchmen.
Furthermore, saying something like "Don't like [ursan]? Don't use it!" is a pretty stupid argument since that argument really doesn't solve any problem; it just avoids it. Players who PuG frequently will not have the choice of not being able to use a skill such as ursan blessing if they actually want to get shit done. So yeah, it can ruin my seemly personal gameplay.

Non sequitur? Even the original three were all muppet show crap to begin with, and a good watch for the kid that I was when they came out. Since then I grew up and couldn't care a flying fornication about Lucas's later creations, which he is of course absolutely free to develop and advertise. A person is indeed a pathetic loser if s/he gets his/her knickers in a knot over something so absurdly insignificant as a bad sequel to a cheesy fantasy movie

It may come as a shock that all the whiners in this thread constitute a group that is utterly insignificant to the greater scheme of things. Does it burn that Joe Casual is more important for the well-being of the game than the self-proclaimed important people?

Sometimes i wonder if the problem is more with the balance of power ( money), rather than skill balance in PvE. I've seen many posts about how A-net caters to inexperienced, QQ after QQ on Ursan and other skills that allow the "inexperienced" to get into higher level or "leet" dungeons. And it makes me wonder if people are really upset about how Anet chooses to run their game, or if they are pissed because now everyone can gain entry to these areas and get the good loot relativly easy, when they used to have to work for hours to do it. If you cant find groups because of Ursan, get a better guild. I'm seeing more QQs on having to Grind for titles. With no new content and GW2 still away off, what else can they do to give you something to occupy your time.
This is a world filled with instant gratification guys its tough to swallow but oh so true

I don't care about loot or titles, but the integrity of the game. I don't mind people seeing all the content as long as the difficult portions still remain difficult.

Thing is, why does Guild Wars have to follow this route in order to sell? In God of War you weren't given the rest of the bonuses until you did the Challenge of the Gods and beat the game on God Mode. In Mass Effect you didn't get the "Insanity Completion" achievement for beating the game on Normal, nor was the Insanity difficulty made as simple as the Easy difficulty.

Whether or not these new additions actually help Joe Casual is more of a concern.

And Ursan is against build creation. Slap 1 skill on your bar, done.



Yet, because I didn't use it, by your logic, it doesn't affect me.



But if you tell them not to use it and they don't, it's not affecting your gameplay by your logic.

People didn't ask for Ursan. And yes, it is exagerated, but does that stop Ursan being overpowered?

Last time I checked there's no such thing as combining skills with Ursan.


Wait, if this game is about creating builds for the strongest possible ones, then what about Ursan? You're just slapping a pre-made build on your bar that's all in one skill.

But your argument is exectly presented from perspective of the player, yours to be precise. First i don't see any of violation of original game desgin, second
if SY or ER remove challenge and depth from game, and logically that means removing them will bring back the challange and depth to guildwars, so how come simply not using them won't make game deep and challanging for you ?


That has nothing to do with balance of the game but it has all to do with PUG mentality and there is nothing ANET can do about it: nerfing, balancing, adding or removing skills won't help with that. There will alwayes be some specific :build,proffesion etc that PUGS will try to enoforce in order "to get the shit done "

Because I'm not using the best tools given to me. A challenge is when you're using the best of the best, be it from your skill and otherwise, and it is difficult. When you have to impose challenges on yourself, it is not satisfying. Self-imposed challenge is not terribly enjoyable, evidenced by the fact that difficulty settings haven't died years ago.

That has be refuted a very long time ago. "Works as intended" and "doesn´t work as intended"! Look it up!

But if it doesn't affect anyone, why is there such an urgency to fix it?

PS: Hi Ryker. Am I in before close?

On second thoughts, dont forget that most places in PVE nowadays have plenty of enchant removal, which furthur makes this skill less usefull.

HAY GUIZE SIGNET OF GHOSTLY MIGHT WAS TOTALLY BALANCED AMIRITE?

Because, shock as it is, Ursan being overpowered does affect my gameplay. If I want to play with other people (this being an MMORPG AND ALL) I am forced to spend time grinding Norn rank, even when I have other, more constructive things, to do with my time (revise, eat, sleep, run around LA spamming trades in local chat, etc etc).

The real problem with don't like it don't use it is that I am artificially limiting my choices, and that's not fun. A well designed game should allow you to barely complete it, after struggling a lot, using everything given to you. If I have to manually not use a skill because with it the game is too easy, the game reeks of bad development.

Would it affect your gameplay? YOU DONT HAVE TO USE IT YOU KNOW.

Overpowered skills are there as measure against overpowered monsters. DoA isn't challenging , it's simply hard. Instead A-Net giving some good builds to the monsters and making their HP , energy and damage a bit above ours , the only thing to counter would be the build. Right now it's only one thing , damage , either us or them , whoever heals or prots the most damage while inflicting more wins. That's why ursan is "in" right now.

Overpowered mob? No. Mobs are not overpowered (except for stupidly hard with pve-only skills like Molotov), they have higher hp (HAI ARMOR-IGNORING DMG), higher level (lul so what?), higher dmg (HAI PROT SPIRIT/SPIRIT BOND) and sometimes more spells (HAI MESMER). But they are IDIOTS. Use it.

Actually - no.
A.Net considered it to be a bug/problem.
That's why it was fixed.
What we thought of it - is quite irrelevant.

(The biggest issue of course being obtaining everything insanely fast.
And I don't mean Ursan-fast. I mean split second fast.
This causes a problem because:
1. player that invest insane amount of time into the game - feel cheated
2. players get everything what they want in seconds (literary!)
which means that both groups lose all interest in the game. And considering that GW2 is still a year away - those players might be gone forever!)

They don't consider Ursan to be a problem.
That's why, anyone that has a different opinion is ... simply said ... wrong.

Whilst I agree with most of your post, I don't think its down to bad development.
Anet now has 3 years of proof that MOST players aren't very skilled at this game. Just look at the intense whine fest that happened when monsters started kiting when you hit on them.

So, when the small percentage of players that could play the game well wanted something more challenging Anet added hardmode. They then had 2 choices.
1) Make the monsters have bigger numbers, and
2) Give the monsters better AI and builds.

Had they gone with choice number 2, even with imba pve skills, the un-skilled majority would still be trying to figure out how to kill the first mob now.

So instead they went with option 1. The result being that unless you think quite hard about some areas they are really quite tricky (purely down to huge dmg numbers) to do without any PvE skills. And if they are tricky for the better players, that then leaves the majority with equally large problems that they would have had above. BUT, in this case, using imba PvE only skills to push their own numbers up can allow them to compete again.

And then finally, there is another class of gamer that Anet is all too well aware of that has the attention span of a particularly stupid goldfish and have no interest in anything that will be any sort of challenge at all. For some reason (that I have no idea what it is), some people only want to play if they can acheive the maximum with minimal effort. PvE skills in their current state cater to them perfectly. One of the best examples is in another thread right now. Searing Flames turns hardmode into easymode, and yet there is still a thread asking for a buff for it.

The end result is that the game caters for the majority and is in its current state.

The only influence you as a gamer can have really is to choose whether or not to use these skills. Theres loads of guilds out there, so finding one with some like-minded people shouldn't be impossible.

Not that the 'inexperienced' ever have Ursan, really, given how much playing you actually have to do to get the skill in the first place and then to get it to a level where it's worth using (r5 or so - in other words, playing through EotN). Well, maybe a few people without experience get it because they've gotten people to powerlevel and run them through the game. But who gives a crap about losers like that?

Might as well split PvE into two sections now...

Wtfpwned Mode: You can switch into wtfpwn mode in your log in screen where all skills do 200% more damage, All skills have instant recharge, All monsters are level 1. You can put 8 elites/pve only skills on your skill bar. With a minium of 3.

Normal Mode: You play with all overpowered skills balanceed.

PS. Once you go into Wtfpwned Mode, you are locked it there untill GW2.

Sounds like a good idea, amirite?

i lol'd.

true, but if it isnt too easy, your doing something wrong.

This ether renewal is insane. 2 of my alliance mates tried the renewal prot/heal builds and did a few vanq and HM mishs. Our party contain ursans and 1 mm bomber hero. They make awesome healers. Ive heard people say, "ele as healers, theres no divine attribute." But damn the heals kept on coming and the prot enchnts were almost always. The healers can even keep their distance with the constant heal party going off every second. Simply amazing, and I mean very simple. Finally another great alternative to the monk.

It's why they don't consider Ursan to be a problem that's the chief source of concern, since both points you've mentioned pointed to both parties being disappointed.

I am absolutely STUNNED that people are still using the stupid "if you don't like it don't use it" argument. Anybody still using this is ridiculous in my eyes.

IF YOU IGNORE A PROBLEM, THAT MEANS THE PROBLEM IS STILL THERE.

Are you the type of person who when faced with a problem, ignores it, and then claims the problem is solved? If so prepare for a failure of a life.

Not to mention, overpowered skills DO indirectly and directly affect the rest of the playerbase in Guild Wars on so many levels that you can't even comprehend at the moment. Changes to the game affect the ENTIRE GAME. Talking about the game as if it is your experience alone and not the entire population is stupid.

Smart people posting here are talking about balance in regards to HEALTH OF THE GAME, and not from these selfish perspectives.

Ether Renewal should be powerful, it wasn't even thought of before. I still don't think an ele spamming heal party on recharge is as powerful as an HB monk is. The only build I see this being an issue with is an ele that can maintain protective bond on themselves by constantly spamming spells to regain 20-28 energy on a 5 energy spell. However, even that isn't too much of a worry, considering the build would be very niche, and Shadow Form outclasses this for farming purposes.

Ether Renewal may see some limited use, which is great considering it has seen exactly ZERO use since its nerf many moons ago.

I'm not arguing around how it affects me as a player. I'm arguing over how it shows the overall game design shift.

The no-attribute skills that get more powerful when you grind didn't tip you off? You not being able to notice it doesn't mean it isn't there.

If you had been paying attention, you'd know these are not the entirety of the issue. They're one aspect of the long progression of PvE into its current state, along with mob and mission design.

Ether renewal isn't really a problem. They buffed a skill, that's fine. You still have to design a build to work with it and it still relies on mechanics like attributes and professions. If they made all PvE skills like this rather than the grinded versions they already implemented, I'd be a bit happier. Even some of the PvE skills have slight attribute requirements, which is logical. Allowing any profession to use any skill with no sacrifice for moving out of its own profession is just another step towards removing the complexities that made the game unique.

Let's do it. DoA ID1 for wtfpwnmode Mallyx.

To me it is real no big deal doesn't seem over powered although i haven't played with it much since the pve buff.

Never work. After a week or two, you would have people whining about how hard wtfpwned mode is, and A-tard would give Ursan a wtfpwned mode buff.

The view that the community have no say is not only boring and adds nothing to the discussion, but it's also incorrect. The community has a huge influence, and a lot of major improvements in the game were driven by these very forums. Unfortunately, the larger part of that community do not care for things like balance, that's why the game is getting shallower and shallower with each update.

And I remember Gaile saying that several community wanted changes were changed because of ANet intern discussions and not because of the wants of the community. There is no way of finding the truth there. Besides hadn´t Jeff said, that the forums are only a very small part of the community, which would mean that they can easily be ignored?