The Madness That Is Ether Renewal

The original design was that people play PvE, stop playing PvE and start playing PvP! That design was first violated with the introduction of PvP characters and completly destroyed with Balthasar points.

But even then the vision was, to get people to play PvP.
And with the introduction of Nightfalls it was clear that the original vision complete and utterly failed, most people don´t want to play PvP. In fact it crashed so hard, that I am questioning the intelligence of the designers of AION, who try the same vision.

There was a bug with prot bond that crashed the servers. That was the reason for the nerf.

So people are totally not going to buy it for the new armors, new weapons, new campaign, and new dungeons?

The original vision of the game, as a whole, was highly questionable and a bit naive. So in that sense it's very understandable of why it would change. But once you change the entire premise of PvE - no longer sticking to it being about "skill>time" - things will get iffy.

If Anet Nerfs EP, Ursan, or whatever, the next strongest builds are just going to take their place.

...Which would actually be a good step in the right direction.

Best post I have seen describing the way any PvE player I have ever talked to really felt about skills and nerfs. Even the people who didn't farm stuff, who were just trying to vanquish or guardian or help friends through missions, they would get fed up with xyz useful skill being way crappier or even worthless after a PvP balance update, and then have that process repeat itself again and again every time they got comfortable with new skills.

Everyone I know who has quit this game has basically said Every time I start to get good, or finally figure out how to beat something that was difficult, some dumb skill nerf makes me have to start over with testing builds. I'm tired of getting my cookie taken away every time I start to eat it. I don't have time for this shit, if it didn't break so often I wouldn't even care.


I don't know how Please stop making stuff suck so bad for PvE usage when you fix PvP problems, it makes the game less fun. got translated at ANet to ZOMG I want overpowered uber skills that always has epic win. Sure, being practically unstoppable can be fun at certain times, but that's not what the majority of PvE was asking to get.

No, the original design was to configure your own skill bar to reach it's maximum potential.

Why do you think there is only room for 8 skills, with 1 elite?
Why do you think there are so many choices of skills?

Having to put together new builds has never been much of a problem for me, since I knew how well to play my class(es). Not to mention it added some variety to PvE. But that's just me.

PvP and Magic of Gathering.

____________________________ or _______________________. And ________________________, though ___________________.
If __________________________________________, then ____________________________________, else____________________.But ___________________________________, or maybe __________________________.

Fill in the blanks.

Wow. Excellent post. This should be like split off into its own thread or something.

It's PvE! Monster should have stronger weaknesses and strengths! You can make ALL Prophecies and factions with the same Fire magic build, regardless of updates, without problems at all, without consumables or PVE skills, in both hard and normal mode.

Make Nightmares immune to dark damage and shadow arts skills.
Make elemenals immune to their own element.
Make some creatures immujne to certain types of physical damage...

That way people will have to change!

And there you go. Yes, it's to balance the game a little, but it also means you have to be smart about your skill selection. Not being smart about your skill selection will have it's downfall.

i'm kind of new here, if anyone could explain a few things for me, it'd be deeply appreciated.

the 'dont like it dont use it(dldu)' argument is not accepted, because it is refuted by the argument 'the problem is still there'. which is then refuted by the argument that 'if the problem doesnt affect you, its technically not a problem'. is that the argument so far?

the few examples simply confused me. if there Was a button that killed all monsters and gave you max everything. . . the orginal dldu still stands. if i don't party with these people, i literally won't use it, and it literally won't affect me. there is no problem unless i choose to take interest in the behavior of others and Make it my problem. unless i can benefit from taking interest in others' behavior, there is no reason to take an interest in others, and therefore it begs the question, why do people mind what others do? this is different than ignoring a problem, since a problem will have consequences whether it is ignored or not (by definition), right?

the same logic follows for the abortion laws in poland. they in fact, do not affect me. more extreme, but the point still stands; it's not my problem, a bit cold hearted to be truthful, but still valid nonetheless. unless of course, polish abortions affect their economy and there is some major economical link to polish economies, etc.

the death setence example is confusing. don't commit homicide is exactly what the innocent person did. and yet he's still paying the price as if he had. the death penalty is being imposed on the innocent - whereas there is nothing being imposed on anyone in the dldu statement.

so are all the posts agreeing that dldu holds?

ursan is disfavored because players 'spam' skills, however, does anyone have a build that requires player skill to execute? doesn't parsimony favor ursan, from a purely logical standpoint?

..And call it "Ludicrous Mode".

Whammo:*control+click 'Ludicrous Mode'* "We've gone plaid!"

Seriously, though, that'd be pretty fun, just as long as they don't dumb it down at all once it's implemented.

Thats more what pve should be. Make skill choices based on the mobs you encounter. It doesnt beat giving mobs decent skillbars and better AI but is much more practical to do.

We saw it a bit with destryers immunity to burning, but i think gw has always downsized the importance too much.

Other games accomplish is by making their weapons have differnet levles of effectiveness against foes. As gw is skill not equip based it would be nice to have skills vary in effects based on the foe they are used against.

Personally i think fire damage should heal destroyers, and refert the bug fix on winter so people can't have an easy way out.

The original vision is what brought a lot of people to buy the game in the first place and give Anet money. The fact that the vision did a 180 is the reason so many people are frustrated now. The fact that PvE is ridiculously easy and grindy is just another part of that 180.

This is hillarious to me. For the longest time all I heard from pve'rs was to seperate pve skills from pvp skills because they were sick of their skills being nerfed for balance reasons.

Now they get their wish, and they complain they want balance! LOL

The simple fact is, that in pve you dont have to use these over powered skills if you dont want to. Make a group and use normal skills, or make a guild that uses normal skills.

The point here is that its not going to hurt you if you do so, your not going to meet up with another pve group durring the instance who destroys your team b/c they are ursan, or who steals all the kills b/c they can kill faster.

Its up to you, if you dont like the skills b/c they are borring and too powerful then dont use them. It wont hurt you. Its that simple.

Or come to pvp where you have to use regular skills (like you claim you want to) and you have to use your brain (like you claim u want to).

Impeccable post my friend. I am personally interested in knowing where some individuals got the idea that the community asked/wanted/wished for all these imba "PvE skills".

Well I can tell you now that it was a bad concept to begin with.

You can't argue the "dldu" argument for this simple fact: as said before, the PvE grind skills make "elite" areas normal, as any group with mediocre skill and these skills can complete these areas. It makes HM a joke. How is it harder when you and your friends can sweep through it? That is my beef with it. PvE used to have harder areas that rewarded pve players who gained skill and learned the game. HM was supposed to be an addition to this. After a bit, between bad(not newbie, but those who are too lazy or don't care to learn the game) players crying they wanted HM too, and Anet mistaking complaints about nerfs as wanting a win button or five, Ursan, SY, et al made HM their bitch. This changed the game meta,the same meta that got people interested in this "skill>time played" game in the first place. You can "ignore" it all you want. The game was changed, and for many potential GW2 players, it makes them wonder if they want to board another ship made by this yard.

The problem with "elite" areas is that without Ursan et al., they take too long. Lordhelmos (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=282) mentioned 4-6 hours without being able to safe your progress. So for casual players those areas were impossible to beat, because of "time" not "skill". If you only play an hour, no matter how good you are, you will never be able to complete those areas.
So where are the cries from Dr. Strangelove, SkyyHigh, Yichi et al. about that?

That is the unwanted side effect. But I don´t think, they will ever change that.


Wrong! PvE had areas that took so RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing long, that casual players could never beat them, no matter their player skills. PvE had areas where "time" became more important than "skill". It is ironic that they fixed this by making the game even more about "time", but this time your progress is safed every little step. So even casual players can finish that and then be able to beat the "elite" areas.

I would gladly lose ursan and pve skills IF:
Monsters lose their monster only skills
Enviromental effects are removed
Monsters are given good bars(in HM and elite areas).
The buffs to monsters in HM should be smaller(only more hp and energy).
If you want build wars that's how it should be : my build and skill versus monsters build and AI , right now it's my build and skill versus monsters build , their AI and moster only skills which compared to normal skills are overpowered.

And more important I see people talking about how guild wars should be played or the vision of GW. Only the devs know that , we can only guess

They should take longer because they give you better rewards and are harder. Yes, they should have a save system like WoW's instances do, but they don't because Anet is silly.

The devs have no more idea than we do, if not less. Why do you think there are continual band-aid patches to try to fix their gaping design holes they don't recognize until much later? They don't play the game as much as the community, and it shows, because the community usually identifies flaws and presents ideas how to fix them much faster and much better than the devs do.

Look at Nightfall - both of the new classes they introduced were so dramatically flawed they had to both be significantly overhauled. You can't hope to argue the devs knew clearly what they were doing when they introduced them. Guild Wars was, to me, an accidental success and developers aren't exactly sure what to do with the game now - so they took a logical route of milking it for profit while they try to apply what they learned through trial and error development into Guild Wars 2.

The devs seem to have trouble grasping exactly what it is that makes their game fun and unique, and are rampaging around wildly trying to amplify that unknown like a blind porcupine in a balloon store.

You know, you call yourself a "casual" player, yet you desire to have the things that "elitist snobs" get. Need I go on?

Oh my god, it actually happened!

Okay, well, I understand that, and I agree too. But I get the feeling not everyone in this topic has the same vision. Some people are actually calling it a problem when players use "imba" skills. As you explained that isn't the issue, I also don't think that CAN be a problem. I just replied to the "DL-DU" argument being called non-valid. If this whole discussion is really about the developers, then the whole "DL-DU" argument isn't important here like you said, but people still keep on discussing it, so I was under the impression that some do think it's a problem when players like to use ursan or whatever.

Exactly. I feel that way too.

All right, I'll give you that. But be honest: the required 10.000 faction could easily be gotten from quest rewards. You didn't have to "grind" for it, you only needed to do the quests. It's account wide, so you could fill your faction bars with multiple characters and just keep them filled untill your characters had passed HzH and Cavalon.
Same with EotN reputation points: although this isn't account-wide, just playing through EotN can get you to R5 easily. That's all you need to be able to buy armor, which, mind you, isn't required to finish the game.[/quote]

That answer is a lot clearer to me after I read Avarre's reply. I can understand what you're saying, and I can relate to you, but I don't know if all these changes really changed the game that much...

So to summarize, I think that the developers are just trying to keep the game alive by:
a- implementing changes from time to time
b- trying to listen to the community's wishes

But that will always result in a part of the community loving the changes, and others hating them. That's just logical.

So my conclusion would be: we all understand Anet cannot possibly keep everybody happy. So there will always be complaints. But even with grind titles and grind skills and PvE skills that can make PvE a lot easier (or too easy) for some, and a lot more fun for others, I still feel players can still simply choose to use these new skills or to persue these new titles. They don't have to... I still feel the basis of the game is still the same. All this stuff is just topping on the GW-cake. Lots of people love it and use it, others hate it.
I'm sorry, but even after reading, and understanding, your explanations (and thanks for that, these were the first clear anwers I got here), I don't think it's that big of a problem as people make it to be... You can still do the same things in GW you did 3 years ago, while others enjoy the new stuff.

Well, I think "violated" is a bit dramatic, don't you think? GW is still good ol' GW imho. Anet just added stuff to please people and keep it interesting. If others think this is violating the original game, well, I can understand you're upset, but is it really that bad? MMORPG's change. Developers want to keep the game alive. I just don't feel it's that bad at all.

Hey, I would actually like that, but only in HM But I'm afraid it's too late for that now...

This is actually the most valid "pro-PvE-skills"-point. I admit that without Ursan i would've probably never even entered DoA. I simply have no desire to go stand around taking a beating as obs tank, cause it's boring, and not something i want to do for 4 hours for the sake of finishing a zone.

You can QQ all you want about the PvE updates, but putting out all content in reach of a larger playerbase is a good thing when your game is 3 years old and on it's way of getting replaced by a next-gen title.

soooo

make more content that's accessible to everyone? removing the eliteness of an elite area isn't the way to go man.

WoW has tons of non-raiding content, plus raiding content, plus high end raiding content....there's stuff to keep any kind of player casual/hardcore/the inbetween, busy.

a) Anet isn't going to add new content, you know that. They're working on GW2. Imho it's great they still bother with Gw1 at all.
b) the "eliteness" isn't toned down, they just implemented PvE skills for those who do not have time to play it the hard way, or just aren't that good at elite missions. These people can now choose to use ursan or w/e and play DoA, whilst before only the elite with well-balanced skillbars and lots of time could do it. And these elitists still can do it the way they want. So the eliteness is only removed if you choose to take imba skills. (Besides, I think it's still hard enough xD )

Gw also had TONS of stuff to do to keep you busy. If you've already done them all, well, then you're finished aren't you? So, just like with any other game that you've played through, you move on to a new game. (WoW?) OR you can create a new character and start over ^^.

I should know better than to wade into a 25 page thread but I guess I'm just not a quick learner

Over the top PvE skills change the game by their very existence, whether you choose to use them or not - that is the problem. The harder areas of the game are enjoyable simply because they are hard - They are the "mountains" of the game that you can aim at conquering. What skills like ER/SY/TNTF/Ursan etc do is turn the mountains into hills - the challenge that they once posed has now been eroded into meaninglessness. Simply pretending that these options do not exist doesn't turn the hill back into a mountain - it ties your hands and feet together. While pulling yourself up a big hill with your teeth might be as difficult as scaling a mountain, it certainly is not as rewarding.

If you're loving the PvE skills and you feel that others are just elitists trying to impose their gaming style on you, you're fooling yourself. The other side of the fence is simply trying get back the enjoyable passtime that has been taken away from them.

The longest area of DoA is foundry which takes just over 90 minutes with a 6 hero balanced party. If they wanted to make these areas more accessible to casual players, they'd add henchmen to the as that is arguably the largest obstacle preventing casual players from finishing elite zones.

I swear to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing god, the next person who brings up Don't Like it Don't use it, I'm just gonna straight up report for trolling. Seriously. :/

Or I could PvP! Hey that's an excellent idea.

I already play WoW, however, unlike WoW, and well, every online game out there (note: not just MMO's), Anet refuses to add content now. That's gr8. It also makes me less likely to buy GW2 (well, I'll buy it since PvP is UAX, if the beta PvP is any good) since, whats the point since when GW3 comes out they'll just leave it in the dust too.

Why? because you don't want to admit it's true?
because you just don't want to place yuorself in other people's perspective?
I have, as you can read in my previous posts. I quoted people and explained my vision. My personal vision is very clear:
*I do NOT feel the game has changed.
*I do NOT think the game has become less fun to players, PvE-skill haters or not.
*I do still think players have a choice.
*I do not think these changes have affected the game.

That's just my opinion. Why would you report me for that? I'm entitled to post my opinion, I've even explained my opinion without insulting people.
So please be an adult about it and don't say nonsense like reporting people who happe to have a different opinion than yours. Kthxbai.

...Why is it so hard to understand the REASON there isn't going to be new content in GW1 is BECAUSE Anet's developers are working on GW2. If they spent their time on GW1, GW2 would be less good as it is going to be now. (of course I have no idea HOW good it's going to be, but by spending time on GW1 it would only get worse.) Would you rather have them spend their time on GW1 now, and screw up GW2? Not very logical...

No, because it's been refuted 5000 times already. Shut up.

i'd rather them spend their time on GW1, and make GW2 take longer. It doesn't "screw up GW2", are you kidding me? It just makes it take longer to come out, which is perfectly alright for me.

Right now, all they're doing is abandoning GW1, and if that's what they're gonna do, then why buy GW2 when they're just gonna abandon it 3 years down the road? Adding new content, even just a new area, is more than enough for awhile. The end-game area to Prophecies was very good! But give us something with enemies. :/

Then make the areas end quicker (i.e. make easier) in normal mode instead of making a widespread band-aid effect that renders the point of hard mode to uselessness. This is what they did for normal mode DoA and it was actually a very solid and good idea.

And why won't they change it? It's not a happy answer.

That's not a problem. You should make sure you have enough time on your hands if you're doing elite areas.

lol a mod deleted it. that's good! that means I can do the same vs the same stupid argument too.

Elite areas are no longer elite, and while this happens in other MMORPGs because of equipment going through progression, this happened because Anet likes to make everything easy.

Stuff is not meant to be equal. Players are not equal, they all have varying skill levels.

Elite areas are designed to be that: elite. Hard. Require masterful amounts of skill, and yes, time. With a big reward.

Opening up a game completely to a casual player, makes having a hard game completely impossible. Any good player will not gimp themselves, because gimping yourself is retarded.

If you didn't like the fact that Elite areas were long....either find the time to do them and get better, or don't do them. That's just the way it is. They are specifically structured to be a challenge. (though they aren't, anymore. Even to a new player who I had do it, it was easy. And he sucks at this game)

A ton of PvErs do the same for PvP content sooo.

Destroying a part of the game for the casual player, is terrible. If you're gonna do that, make NM easy, and casual, and short, and HM way harder and long. Or rather, add new content and make the older areas easier if need be. Either way, it's way better than making PvE a complete "roll face over keyboard to win" fest it has become now.

It hasn't been refuted once. People only disagreed. All this thread has done is strengthen the DLDU argument. Did I tell YOU to shut up? No. So be polite.

Might be allright for some, but Anet needs money. People want new games. Sure, a new GW1 chapter might have had the same result, but well, that's marketing for ya.

I think the strongest argument toward the DLDU argument, is that these skills do impact how people play, in terms of player elitism. Basically, if you don't have Rank X of Ursan, you can't make it into a certain DoA group.

If Anet spends resources on changing up EP and Ursan, then the next strongest builds are simply going to take their place.

Then what?

Folks will have something new to complain about, I guess.

PuG groups that desire efficiency will still want and use the easiest to form and easiest to run builds. It's natural to take the path of least resistance when the potential for frustration and failure is very real.

They could do it again, but it won't end and it won't help. The functional survival of PvE isn't based on the skill and monster balance, like it is in PvP, so changes to satisfy groups claiming that the game is now too easy would really be a waste of resources that could, instead, be used on GW2 and new, actual content.

It's the fact that the "don't like it don't use it" can be used to excuse any and every single overpowered thing in the game.

"Don't like the new skill that kills every enemy in the explorable? Well, don't use it!"
"You say it's silly that ANet introduced a button that gives you 10000k instantly? Well, don't use it!"

It doesn't excuse the problem, it blatantly ignores it.

Your posts are epic.

The game has undergone a complete and total change from its original vision. Many of the reasons why have been posted in this thread. Many others are posted in PvP forums. Nonetheless, it has definately happened. Getting into all the reasons why would take an extremely long post that I don't feel like making.

It has been refuted numerous times. Let me put it shortly. If you don't use it, the problem remains. The problem is affecting the entire game. Thus, ignoring the problem means the problem is still affecting the entire game. Thank you.