The Madness That Is Ether Renewal

Knowing and/or caring more about a franchise than its producers is a hallmark of fanboyism gone overboard. It's just a game

A.net doesn't consider it a "problem".
If you do - that makes you wrong.

So ... how did it ruin the game for YOU?

Yeah, it's not like they are trying to sell a product.

So I guess A.Net can have the cake and eat it too.

lol wut?

"I know you just proved me wrong but THIS ISN'T NAZISM."

Wellllll NO SHIT SHERLOCK. The hitler comparison is a good one because whether its a historical fact or not there are people who have the opinion I stated. yes! there are actually people who have the opinion that the Holocaust never happened, and deny history. Amazing how people have different opinions about it....

(p.s.: you're not a mod, don't tell me what I can or can not do.)

Of course according to you, these people who say Nazism is alright, Hitler is the best man on the planet, and the Holocaust never happened, are perfectly alright...which makes me wonder what kind of person you really could be? Or are you willing to admit opinions can be wrong, as a fact?

You know, those are some pretty epic fanboys considering I think half that list doesn't even play anymore.

Screw it, I'll just pick up an example of "Don't like it don't use it".

Me: Hey mum, I'm smoking weed now and it feels good!
Mum: What?! Stop that RIGHT now!
Me: Don't like it don't use it, it doesn't affect you!

Or even then, don't like Ursan, don't PuG.

Ermmm...exactly. How did it affect me then? Oh, in that case it didn't need fixing.

By the way, Ursan isn't working as intended. Slap on a Zealous weapon, and maybe a focus with the "Live for Today" inscription and find out for yourself. Even then, it's against build creation. Yes, along with Raven and Volfen.

That's not so fair Tmak, because it was you who originally took the point out of context and interjected the developers into your challenge. The original idea was that a strong vocal minority such as forum posters can be just as important if not more so than the more casual/silent majority, as driving forces in the community (lending to free self-promotion and better critique for improvement).

This was in the context of questioning A-net's attempt to appease the casual majority at the cost of alienating the more hardcore/elite fanbase, when arguably that casual majority was drawn to simpler aspects like no monthly fee rather than specific design choices.

Sorry m8, that's a bad example. Technically, that is working as intended. It says "You have -2 energy degeneration", and therefore nothing can raise/lower that. Environmental effects won't change it, etc.

They've never stated it wasn't a problem. Likewise, they never stated it was. Regarding how it "ruined the game", I think doing a complete u-turn from what makes your game unique is a pretty good way to have it lose its edge.

Which they've been doing thus fine with so far, even without dumbing down the entire game.

As stated: Depends. Seeing the complete 180 that GW1 has taken in terms of design I'm going to be very wary about purchasing GW2. I don't want another free-to-play MMO sans additional content.

@Tmak: If we want to go on about what the "original context" was, then we'd probably want to go back even further:

oh, btw, Regina said they are discussing Ursan Blessing on her journal, and some think its a problem, and some don't, so being dumb and putting the entire team as being one universal thought is kind of lol.

I will say for 100% certainty that Ensign, JR, Black Mischief, as well as others that started as players and now work for anet/different game companies (not mentioning names atm) know more about this game than the origional developers, yes.

And I can guarentee from their knowledge posted/shared vs the knowledge I have personally gotten from devs/design team that I am right.

Your origional response was to a comment about posting a list of 10 or more people that have contributed to the community more than anyone else has, so I did. So therefore my list wasn't as off as you liked it to be

You didn't go back far enough. The discussion started with perceived problems with the game, not with the community (which, admittedly, has its own problems). Even if some people might have conceptual difficulties in telling them apart, they are, however, completely separate entities. I am the first to appreciate community work - the entire guild I happen to belong to is a strongly community oriented one - but GW is not an open source project. Therefore community work gives you zero credit in calling the shots with the actual game. It is a product, you vote with your dollar and hence DLDU.

A completely different thing is that in my opinion there is one issue that violates the original design far worse than anything else, and that is consumables. Compared to that everything else is peanuts but as long as PvE is not balanced around them I couldn't care less. All of PvE can be completed without PvE skills, consumables or the recently splitted PvE versions of common skills. You can still play GW the same way as when it first came out, nothing has been taken away.

Depending on ANet's vision V2.0 I may or may not support it, and either way it won't be a big deal. My point, when it comes to it, is that for some people here the direction of this game seems to mean terribly lot, and to me it looks pretty surreal, like watching two true fans argue over which hair spray Marge Simpson uses.

I never got that guy ; waisting his life with finding glitches in a game Oo

aah well his choice ; ..


Even though we all know these persons , they didn't came up with that knowlegde all by them selfs . Even they were using meteor shower on a warrior in the beginning . The knowledge of a game grew by multiple people helping each other . Some people [ like the list you named ] are better than most Guildwarsgamers but still ; their guides and comments grew out of other things . Like the common sabway named after Sab ofc ; grew out of other little builds made up by the casual gamer . They just enhanced the knowlegde they got and told it to other people , and that their way of helping the community but it's quite harsh to say that ONLY THEY did the 99% of the helping of the community . Guildwars is a game to play in teams ; knowlegde comes by working in teams .


Your right ; i know i'm not a complete retard but i would never find the things he did ; me beeing uninterested in these things might be the cause of that ; but to find those things he found .. you must be quite dedicated.

One could say they don't get you, wasting your life on a game.


Ghaha ; lets blame them now for bad balances =)

Don't underestimate the intellectual challenge. I'm a theoretical physicist by profession and I get to find glitches in the fabric of reality. That's pretty cool stuff Pretty much all revolutionary scientific progress happens when something doesn't work as expected.

One could say they don't get you, wasting your life on a game.

Finding important glitches is important too dude! Anet can't catch anything because they aren't perfect and omnipotent. Which is why they listen to feedback (like say Izzy, who has talked to pretty much most of the people on Yichi's list at some point for skill balancing feedback).

... I am wasting my life arguing an inconsequential point on a video game fansite forum.

Don't you have grant proposals to write? Stop slacking off.

From personally knowing everyone of those people on that list, you're wrong on this point.
Provide proof of these said "little" builds that these were evolved from and you would have had a point here, but you don't. Because the Builds, Guides, and Strategies these people have produced, as well as other knowledge that has been given has all come from personal expierence and testing themselves, not anyone else's testing. Their knowledge came from trial and error, and learning from their mistakes. A common thing most people can't seem to do which is why they go no where, even if it is only a game.
Ok granted the 99% is a little harsh. I'll drop it down to 85% but still, name me another group of people that has given more to the community as far as learning, information on helping new players and giving them the correct advice to get them started, strategy guides on general playstyle wether it be PvE or PvP, and general knowledgable information about the game and you'll have a leg to stand on in this discussion.

But since I guarentee you that you cannot, its kind of pointless to argue against.

The contributors to the original GuildWiki, which intersects the above group of 10 GW rockstars not at all.

Huh...?

OK, this is just wrong.

I understand that the above is written in jest but think about it ... we didn't have these kinds of things when I was a young'un and now that my kids have grown up and I have an entrenced position in my institute which means that I don't have to work 80 hours a week to stay in the threadmill (I still do on occasion when something interesting pops up) I suddenly have a decent amount of free time to use as I see fit, and call me perverted but discussion has always been the game I derive most pleasure from doing. And GW is good mindless fun as well (if you suggest that there's more than an almost imperceptible change of difficulty between running a bear and a 'real' build then I'd be happy to introduce you to some real mindbenders ).

Communities, especially for online games, are a central driving force in terms of game direction. A good example of this is WoW: Without the test realm and player input, large and often drastic changes of the game would drive through into the real and live version, and they're usually not perceived through open arms. If there was no protest regarding Life Tap, many Warlocks would be highly unhappy (not just a "waah i ain't op no more" but to a point that it voided warlock gear pointless). If raiders did not have a huge ass thread about T6 itemization, Stamina would've been absent from the high-end gear (which is vital for many classes). Regarding major community contributers, I believe every Warrior needs to hand Ciderhelm a major set of props, even going so far to own the domain of www.readthesticky.com.

To simply dismiss community work, be it from a major head or a voice altogether, is always going to lead into faulty waters. A large community is always the driving force of a game. It's just knowing who to listen to that can become difficult. But to simply ignore and dismiss *all* player feedback is a terrible decision.

When you're not using the best tools handed to you, you're purposely creating self-inflicted penalties, i.e. "gimping yourself", something that I and many others have penned numerous times. When I have to gimp myself to have a challenge, it means the game is no longer challenging. And rarely is self-imposed challenge enjoyed, easily shown by difficulty settings having survived for so many years.

New tools were added into the game, all of which make the game slightly to drastically easier. By not using these tools I am not being given a challenge but creating my own, and that sucks.

Ack, another interesting comment I totally missed:

Problem is, the "fanboys" should never be caring more about the game than the devs, because the developers should be loving it more than anyone else.

For all of you saying, "Don't like it, don't use it." Let me explain something, and you must understand it.

ArenaNet is a company. It is a business. People are trying to make money. How do you make money? Sales of a product. How do you sell a product? You design a product that people like. 'Don't like it?' K I WON'T BUY IT THEN.


When Broodwar for Starcraft first came out, Disruption Web on the Corsairs was insanely broken. It had the most indiscriminantly long duration, and with it, you could blanket entire bases/armies while your forces faceraped. Top players demanded a nerf or they'd quit. Blizzard took action accordingly.

ArenaNet is digging themselves into a hole here. At this point, I really do believe that their skill-balancing department has gone rogue, as has their Community Relations department. I have no clue what ANet thinks its doing, but I can tell you it's bad for business.

Or you could look at it as good for business. Overpowered skills like Ursan are from the last chapter, EotN. Many groups now look only for Ursans. The result? People must buy EotN in order to compete with the strength of others, attracting more sales. It's cruel, but profitable.

I never said you proved me wrong. on the contrary. don't put words in my mouth.
I never contradicted the fact that there aren't people who share your opinion.
Try to read. And there's no need for sarcasm, I haven't talked down to you, now have I? Keep it up and I'll report you for being rude repeatedly and uncalled for.

I also never stated that thinking nazism is great is perfectly alright. Where the hell did you read that??? I said... oh forget it, just read my posts better or I won't even bother responding to you anymore.

I'm more than willing to admit opinions can be wrong, but not as a fact. Saying someone's opinion is wrong is also an opinion in itself. Of course most people think WWII and everything that happened then is bad, because that's humane. Only twisted / discriminating people think it was great. So that creates a widely shared opinion of a great majority of people who think straight (thankfully). And the majority would then make that opinion so wide-spread, that it becomes a generally accepted "fact".

But this discussion doesn't have a majority of people saying this is wrong or right. And that's because it's about a GAME, not WWII. NOW do yuo see what I'm trying to tell you? If not, don't bother responding to my posts anymore, cuz I won't repsond to yours any longer.

So, you're telling us Ursan is bad for your health and illegal, and that there are NO PUGs in the whole wide game that like to go balanced? You need to find a better guild my friend. Please at least try to find some better comparisons people, lol.

Many people feel GW has taken a complete 180 turn. I just don't feel that way. That's my only point. And all I'm trying to do is explain why I think DL-DU is valid, so people might still enjoy GW. But hey, if you really want to whine about it and quit GW, be my guest. I don't think it's worth all the fuss. (I do like discussions though ^^)

The DL-DU argument is valid to a certian point. I can say that if you prefer using a blue pen over a black one then the don't like it, dont use it argument can be applied.

The origional argument here is that with the recent skill seperation, title grind, etc. that has been added to the game has shifted the origional focus of the game away from it's main selling point the game origionally had and the origonal design of the game. Just because you have the choice of wether or not to use it, does not mean that it hasn't effected the game in a way that was completely 180 degrees away from the origonal design and concept of the game. When you can prove this otherwise, the DL-DU argument might have a leg to stand on in this discussion, but atm it is nothing more than a huge falacy.

Actually, Ursan is bad for your skill and is illegal (imbalanced - any other MMORPG and other would have it nerfed super-fast). There are no pugs. 3 months ago, maybe there were, now none. Pug =/= guild, but we can't go with guild all the time (since guild isn't going for what I want all the time, sometimes they go somewhere where I'm not needed/I don't have a char, like Cryway in Deep/Urgoz or Monk there).

Oh, and Tyla is a nub, but he is in a good alliance and plays balanced alliance teams often.

Then you are living in a denial. I know it's sweet, but still... You can pretend Nazi's are okay, holocaust was ,,clearing space in the World'' and Hitler was a good German. But it's still living in denial.

Yeah, and expect GW2 will be successful with how A.Net is ignoring customers. You think Blizzard's WoW would be successful it they didn't support Diablo 2/Starcraft/Warcraft 3 after three-four years? Of course not. Maybe they would be lucky, but... yeah. Poland could have won against Germany yesterday if we were lucky, but we weren't ;d

The fact you're restricted from PuGs still stands.

And the fact that Ursan, much like other blessings are against the original game design.

And why should you join a guild JUST to be able to play with real players now?

Whatever, Abedus. (Notice the spelling, fool.)

I'd point out the irony of finding a guild to join PUGs but I have a feeling you wouldn't get it.

Oh, didnt see all the arguments that were identical to mine. Sorry about that. And also that i got a little carried away, sorry "DL-DU"-guys.
But i still stand by my opinion. And i still think that my example, along with all the other examples like that are very valid.

Can you not get it through your head and stop comparing Anet to Blizzard? D2 was the fastest selling pc game of all time. Ofcourse blizz are going to support it and other popular games. That gets its customers to buy more of their products such as wow. Having 10,000,000 subscribers giving you roughly $15/£8 a month means you have the money to support such games. Anet are poor. Simple as that. They do not have a stable income and i'm pretty sure the liquidity of their assets is going down the shithole.

Pay Anet monthly, and then you will see improvement. Until then, for god's sake stop comparing two companies with a different selling strategy.

Because customer loyalty is a two way street. Much of the "vision" argument that people are using to say Anet has betrayed their fans stems from a feeling of abandonment by the company. Its not a "You didn't support me, so I won't support you" argument. Its a "Why have you abandoned us" question, met with anger and threats to leave.

Arenanet was singular in its concept when GW was introduced as a CORPG, not an MMO. Not only did they have a supiorior PvP platform than many tactical game then and now, they had an excellent PvE package that--with effort and skill--players could transition to.

The more this changes, the more people will cry out.

People are leaving the game over this. Friends and guildies, I'm seeing the same creeping exodus that befell HA a year ago. While EQers and WoW players may champion GW2's list of ever ending changes to GW1's design, I frankly doubt that GW will maintain the clout to draw them from their platforms, especially if their once most staunch supporters deride them for "selling out". Entertainment companies with dirty reputations, I have observed from past experience, are less likely to draw more business...and the people they do get will be of considerably less caliber to those they may be losing over this.

Anet appears to be taking a dump on balance, a staple of game play and one they once excelled at (over the competition; hardcore PvPers may feel free to argue that point, but they were still better than WoW or EQ2 in that department!). Pre-EotN, GW had a name synonymous with challenging PvE and PvP. Now their greatest draw will be "no monthly fees, but read the small print". Even that wellspring will be dry up once users realize that--as with the BMP--they can insert whatever they want into the game and force you to buy it to remain an effective team member. If you've ever played other Korean designed "no monthly fee" MMOs then you know what I'm describing.

So...if this trend continues from Anet we'll not simply be left with a purchasing system that can screw us at whim, but also broken game mechanics that many players left MMOs for in the first place...and bought GW because they were "different".

What, I ask, is going to separate GW2 from those other MMOs? The games millions of players leave because they don't like the way they worked.

The answer, if these trends continue, is that nothing will separate GW from the competition. Other than name, they'll be the same crappy game that we all left and flocked to Anet to avoid; they'll be the same garbage we didn't want to play before...and didn't.

As for "those who support them"...they already have games. Why would they leave theirs for one that is a carbon copy of what they already play? there will be a burst of people who buy it...and just as quickly stop playing it. The type of gamers they cater to right now are...a fickle breed. Banking on their support is ill advised.

From my chair anyway.

I hope this answers your question.

GGs

EDIT:I know who created Anet and am well aware of the connection the founding designers have with the Battlenet project. What upsets me is that they left Blizzard to persue a different kind of game and it was successful. So now that they have succeeded, they wish to clone the game they left.

Its not Anet that I blame for this, though. not directly. I put it on their shoulders, because they may have a chance to get away...from NCSoft and its cantankerous titles. Make no mistake, its NCSoft playing a factor in the design of the next cake that worries me so much. And while I fear Anet will get it, and eat it, they won't long enjoy it.

I expect them to end up choking on it.

Because this subject still erks me, I will take one more go at it.

Forum posters are a minority...of players who represent many facets of the majority. PvPers, PvEers, PvPvEers, they are individual from their respective groups when they come here and share their views. This does not make them better or worse, by any definition. In this very thread we have posters from many diverse groups. From top 10 GvGers, to retired PvPers or stone cold noobs; From the 24/7 dungeon tromping fanatics to the casual, once a week "when I can" PvEer.

And, unfortunate IMHO, but every voice is out there, we do have plenty of Gimmies in the crowd tonight.

It is this diversity of players that makes one look to the forums for guidance and suggestion. Sometimes, it is successful. Sometimes...we get this mess...

So, yes. Forum posters are a minority. But that does not make their varying in-game experiences any less a representation of the majority when taken as the whole. It is when individuals try to speak for the majority that I would take issue.

This thread is getting ridiculously boring with people continually posting the same garbage.

The players typically WILL know more about the game than the devs. The devs don't play the game as much, they just develop it. It is usually a good idea for the devs to listen to input from their game's biggest fans.

If Anet doesn't consider it a problem, then they are simply a bad company. The game was SOLD TO PEOPLE based on the idea that overpowered crap that let you breeze through the game would not be made. Skill>time and competitive. If they take your money for a certain product then completely change the product after you bought it, that is a problem.

What other ways does it ruin the game for people? Many ways. Too many to list.

Then some are bad and some aren't. Simple as that. Inbalance is one of the biggest problems in Guild Wars and always has been. Anybody who works at Anet and doesn't understand this should be instafired.

Truth.

Truth.

I'll be honest. This thread is still open because I find it amusing.

It can keep going, I suppose.

What the PVE community wants. . .

Now that alone is a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed statement. The community is split into a multitude of clusters:
hardcore/old school players
the casual/old schoolers
the new comers
the old/mature players
the youngsters
the RPG players
the skill > time players
if i leave out a cluster, I apologize. we know you are there.
people can actually fall into multiple clusters and the clusters seldom see "eye to eye".

people will complain that they need to have a button that gives them god mode and when they get it, it breaks the game. noone wants to feel like the character they have played for the last 2 weeks or more is worthless, this is human nature.

Noone wanted to glitch myllax in the door and have the necro SoS him to death but that was how it was done. Only the trinity plus a necro would ever be allowed to do it. This made all the other people that loved there other classes really mad. so we got a button. now we complain that the game is mindless , because it is. there is no possible way for the devs to possibly win in this senerio.

another fine example.
remember ToPK, when it came out? if you were not a monk or a necro or a ranger well, you did not get into a pug.

These are design flaws with the game. If the classes were truly balanced noone would care what class you were. so instead of actually redesigning the "elite" areas, the classes and the skills, we got a button.

another problem is with each new expansion the majority of the player base moved, it became thinner and thinner. noone wanted this.

my guild is in shambles, many have moved to a new game or are "taking a break" from gw.

Looking back at where I started playing this game and where I am now is 2 totally different games. I will not be the 1st person out the door on gw2 if that game flops or does not meet my expectations, ill sell my account on e-bay or just shelf it for the sake of the "good old days". I am already planning on getting a more adult game with better graphics than gw, that is more to my tastes.

I fear for the future of guild wars and anet. I am a gamer, not a button pusher. I like the new and unexpected not routine. "take me here", "fetch me a sandwich" or "kill X" quests get old. Do not get me wrong, I love this game but the luster is gone, my friends in-game are dwindling or gone as well. we still chat in our team speak but it is not the same...the sweet taste of victory of defeating a challenge has been replaced with the flavor of water, it is so . . . blan.

You sir, deserve a cookie. Couldn't have put it better myself.

People complain cause some skills are unusable and not worth it.
People STILL complain when the skills are buffed and now usable.

The way I see it, rather have an overused skill than a forgotten skill, and that's something ether renewal was a frickin dead skill. Now that it's buffed shut up and enjoy it. kthxbai said what I had to say.

Yes, it is very amusing.

If that topic wasn't locked, I'd totally point that one dude to this topic on mods not censoring...

EDIT: Plus I think its good every once and awhile to let these things go on, and get a bit out of hand personally, from my own modding experience. It let's people let off some steam and really talk to each other rather than just NOURSAN THREADS or whatever.

Agreed, but they don't want to hurt the precious PUGs who are so dumb they think Mesmers are completely worthless or whatever so they gave every class a bone.

It's just a bone that kills things pretty quickly and safely.

Fail.
First this not the right analogy it should be like:
Completly Anonymous Person A in country X: Hey , I'm smoking weed now and it feels good!
Completly Anonymous Person B in country Z: What?! Stop that RIGHT now!
Completly Anonymous Person A in country X: Don't like it don't use it, it doesn't affect you!

and now second failure, you ended your diaogue in moment where person B should provide some valid argument against person A but you didn't come up with any.
600 times it was only said that DLDU is not valid but that's not how arguments should be invalidiated or validiated, because even if you said that something is invalid 1 milion times it won't logically make it invalid.
That's not the case of game balance but of Pug mentality, which was the case long before any pve skills were introduced.

Thing is that there are so many diffrent opinions what PvE balance means, so it's hard to please everyone so i would opt for solution that is not enforced on everyone but is rather giving choice.

To be fair, mesmers are far from very useful must-have-in-party too.

Why? Imbalance.

Because anet designed and balanced that class primarily for PvP use, which left it lacking in PvE department. Sadly, anet repeated that mistake with assassin class.

Its like noone asked questions like:

* Does person lacking reflexes/good ping have enough important stuff to interrupt to benefit party? Enough important hexes and enchants to shatter?
* Wouldnt bosses with halved hex durations / halved cast times be too unfriendly mesmers?
* Why are we giving necromancers SS if it looks like elite domination skill?

( * Why are we giving monsters inherent death nova skill when facing newbie low-al meele class. Couldn't it kinda ... hurt class reputation?)

I can't believe "Don't like Don't use" is still coming up. I honestly can't believe it. I fear for the future of humanity.

"Don't like Dont use" has been invalidated numerous times over throughout this thread.

SIMPLIFIED INVALIDATION OF DLDU

1. A problem is affecting Guild Wars
2. Some people choose to ignore the problem
3. The problem is still affecting Guild Wars

DLDU IS garbage end of story. If you want to argue that Guild Wars doesn't HAVE a problem then you can argue that way, but saying "Don't like Don't use" does absolutely nothing for your argument and adds nothing to the thread (other than people laughing).

The problem becomes when the inbalance affects other people and the entire game in general (as in people bought the game expecting none of this crap would be in it). All of the changes made to Guild Wars have largely affected how many people can play Guild Wars (particularly in PvP but also in PvE).

This. And the main problem is that this issue has driven the thread wayyy off topic.

Any further mention of "Don't like it, don't use it" will have your post deleted because it does not contribute to the discussion.

1. With the introduction of overpowered skills (pve only or whatever), especially ones that are linked to title-grinding, GW as a game has changed into something different from what it's used to be. This isn't an opinion.

2. Some people choose to ignore it.

3. The game still has changed.

Some people may like the fact that it changed, some people might not; that's opinion.