The Madness That Is Ether Renewal

And GW2 would then be what?? The successor of that boring game from the company, that doesn´t care for the majority?? They want to sell GW2 to that majority, because catering to the very small crowd, that cares about "vision" or "integrity" doesn´t keep you in business.

BTW I just read an interview with Jeff Strain, where he states, among other things (like "skill>time"):

"We give every player a great time, be it players, that like to fight against others, against AI or that like to mix it." (really bad translation from me!)

So I don´t see how the game was "directed towards loftier goals".

No, I am not! I am quoting a community relations manager, who said that before the release of Nightfalls!

In PvP skill over time is very much still true. But in PvE the majority didn´t accept that and ANet listened.


If your vision is rejected by the masses of your customers, the worst thing you can do is try to press it.

In fact let´s put a reality check in here: " ANet wants to stay in business, nothing else matters, not vision or integrity! Listening to the majority will keep the company running, even if it means to throw away the vision!"

PvP characters where included a months or two after release! At a point in time, where noone could have said, if the transition to PvP were accepted by the players or not. They listened to the majorly/pure PvP players back then. Which at the start may or may not have been the majority of the playerbase, but today the majority are the PvE players.

Leaving the vision gave us the PvE skills, that many PvE players wanted, which was one of the major selling points of GWEN.

I know that. The majority is currently happily playing the game, without caring for integrity or the opinion of the forum people. Everyone that posts on this forum is part of a minority, compared to the amount of players that have bought Guild Wars.

But that is my point, the perceived problem is only a problem to such a small insignificant part of the playerbase, that the whole discussion here is just ridiculous.

I am so not talking to you personally. It is more a general view on those minority.

The majority would clearly buy Guild Wars 2 because it has no monthly fee, just like they did with Guild Wars. That's what keeps ANet in business, not their choice of which player types to cater to. So, ANet can make Guild Wars 2 a decent game and not care about people who want it to be a WoW clone - it will still sell.

The vision that ANet once had did not just matter to some players, it mattered to them. I have a small slither of hope that this vision may be revived with Guild Wars 2.

Apparently you didn't take in the part in which he stated other things (like "skill>time"). Those were the loftier goals of the game. It can still be fun for different types of players, but ANet doesn't have to 'cater' to any of them specifically for this to be true.

But they shouldn't have listened, because there was no need to.

Those masses already bought the game despite disagreeing with ANet's vision, therefore they should have no effect on whether ANet continue to pursue it or not.

I didn't say that ANet introduced PvP characters because players weren't progressing from PvE into PvP; I said ANet did this to reinforce the skill > time principle. Naturally, this meant that they left the idea of progression from PvE to PvP, which wasn't going to work anyway, by the wayside.

PvE skills aren't even mentioned on the EotN box, so clearly ANet didn't think they were a major selling point. Perhaps you'd like to bring forward some evidence that PvE skills improved ANet's sales? I've already got my evidence that the game was doing well without them:
Forum posters may be a minority, but unlike the 'uncaring' majority, they offer ANet valuable criticism and ideas for the game's improvement. This is especially true of the distinct few who have large amounts of knowledge/expertise in the game.

Don't like it, don't read it.

This post is epic. Very epic indeed. So epic, in fact, that it makes me want to High-Five you in Real Life.

The "Don't Like, Don't Use" argument is pretty weak, however...

1) Nerf skill bars, and the next most popular and potent will arise. If Anet unbuffs these skills, it would just be a waste of their time, and would take away what some folks did some serious grinding for.

2) Player discrimination has always been around, whether it is rank, skill bar ping, or profession discrimination. There isn't anyway to change this, except suck it up and get a better rank, or join groups that don't care about rank. A team with a Mo/E with Flare doesn't stand a very good chance in HM DoA, however a supported conset r10/10 Ursan does. It doesn't make me elitist to prefer one over the other, it just makes me practical.

fixed

agree though

...If there is one thing Ensign and I agree on....Back to the topic at hand. I do not want a trend of overpowered skills destroying the integrity of builds, HM play or anything else. The question before us now--whether we wanted the split or not--remains one of balance. Just throwing overpowered skills and builds at the problem will not solve it. Games become boring that way, and people who do not like this trend will obviously complain. Nerfs to previously overpowered PvE only skills should also be addressed, since the umbrella of PvP protection has now ceased to exist. Simply put: we won't need them; they should be relegated to elite status and not to godhood.

In short: Izzy, you have not made your job easier. You just made it twice as hard or more. But Anet still better do it, and do it well. For the integrity of PvE play, imbalanced skills cannot be allowed to remain. I—and others here from the look of many posts—expect proper PvE balance out of this skill split, not tossing overpowered garbage into our lap, hoping we will accept the cookie and not ask for bread.

Guild Wars was a game of substance. Be it perceived as vision, or in any other form, the idea of a game that presented a challenge to play was the draw for me. I don't want a no monthly fee WoW. I want the intelligent design that GW's skill makeup can—and in the past did—give me.

Balance the damn skills. Don't break them worse.

GGs

I'm gonna use it whenever I can when someone jumps out with "omg another ursan qq thread" or something like that.

So you guys wouldnt care if they made the skill "Invulnerability"
"invulnerability":
for 1...78..341874 seconds youre completely invulnerable. Ends prematurely if you get laggs. End effect: all monsters die, and drops endless stacks of ectos. [Norn title track]

Please see the bigger perspective. please.

/Bow

Couldn't agree anymore with what you said.

Some people in this game enjoy dropping the stone on their own foot. Why, I will never understand that.

I couldnt disagree more.
The reason why alot of people "QQ" over PvE changes, is that theyre completely ridiculous. Before, they nerfed something in PvP and by that they made something completely useless in PvP.
That problem kinda got solved when they split PvE and PvP.
Oh.. but wait - did they just buff shadow form? And made ER stronger than it was before the original nerf?
Call me a QQ'er, i dont care. What i care for is this game.

They're called blind fanboi for a reason you know.

King Symeon addressed many of the points I was going to make, but I'll respond a little more.

They should sell GW2 to the majority that will buy a game designed with the loftier goals in mind. The majority will buy the game regardless just as they did with GW1 (at least Prophecies and maybe Factions).

Blizzard is a genius at this type of marketing. This is something the Anet founders should know. For example take Starcraft 2. Blizzard is marketing the PvE side of the game. They know that making the game look flashy and nice with a cool story and good PvE will capture a ton of people. But the true video game fans know that the loftier goals of PvP will decide if the game is a success or not. Tons of people will buy the game regardless.

That is the path Guild Wars was taking and should still be on...but it isn't. Now it has been pushed into mediocrity, and people are just hoping that GW2 will somehow ressurect those loftier goals. It is even worse with Guild Wars because the game was MARKETED with loftier goals in mind, so many people bought the game for that reason.

That translation is bad I agree. If you can't see how the game was directed towards loftier goals then there is nothing I can say. Maybe this video will help a little.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnEWvo1Ugw


Show me the quote where he said nobody plays PvP...

Anet listened to the whining majority who wanted super overpowered garbage, even though it destroyed their game. PvE is utterly destroyed right now balance wise. It is a bloody joke for Gods sake! Anybody sane can see it. PvP is not far behind.

You STILL didn't respond to the point either. Anet either doesn't know how to balance or doesn't care about balance. Since this thread is about balance, you have to pick one of the two.

The masses still bought the game based on the vision, and will still buy the game in the future. King Symeon explained it very well.

Watering down the game just ruins the quality of the product and lies to the consumer who bought the product.

It was? Show me on the box. King Symeon already showed that sales were huge long before GWEN.

By your logic, you are the minority...your opinion is the minority.

Inbalance of the game is clearly a problem. Whether or not the majority sees it is irrelevent. Inbalance is still a major problem. The future direction of the game is still a major problem.

To be fair, we are all here kinda FanDumb

Zwei2stein wins the thread

Although the particular subspecies that is most abundantly vocal in this thread is not explicitly listed in the linked article, the comparison is uncanny.

That's so funny, but hey do people actually really belive this ?

Yes?

Do I really have to name 10+ people on these forums who have basically contributed more to the community than anyone else with their expertise?

I would be impressed to see a list of names of 10+ people on these forums who have contributed more to the game than anybody else (including the devs).

On one hand, there are people who had a vision and created an actual game that is the best selling product in its particular niche. On the other hand, there are people who say that the first group succeeded just by accident, and it's these self-proclaimed experts who know better how to run the business. Guess which of the two gets my respect?

I doubt either of them care.

Yet, accidental successes are not unheard of in popular media, or we would not have such a term as "one hit wonder". A better measure of Anet's business acumen would be the success of GW2.

Even if we limited ourselves to GW1, each release subsequent to the original Guild Wars has received lower critical ratings, with EotN receiving some downright hostile reviews. It's hard to say which campaign had the most first sales because that figure is never released by Anet, but I would wager that Prophecies brought the most new players to Guild Wars. One might see a trend over four releases and validly extrapolate to the future, even though I myself don't find this torment-in-a-teacup du jour all that compelling. In all honesty, I find these Johnny-come-lately complainers amusing; I myself became jaded at Factions' release when I saw the genesis of the ridiculous faction-farming mechanic that continues to plague the game today even though its essential nature has changed a bit.

So if I understand correctly - everyone that is so completely and utterly disgusted by the current state of PvE will NOT buy GW2 BECAUSE of the same reason (=the current state of PvE in GW1)? (And just because of that!)
Right?

Why should anyone, especially anet, care?

Tons of EQers are patiently waiting for GW2 expecting it to be second coming or something. In fact, Lots of fan sites of other MMOs carry threads full of people excited about GW2 as possible replacement for their current MMO (which sucks because noob can have epics and stuff).

Anyway, speaking for myself, i have no desire to buy GW2. But i didn't like vision behind it even back before PvE was butchered.

read this, this and this before responding with something that has been said 1671 pages ago. And don't call people with a different opinion than yours retards please. You're getting personal, and I don't like it.

I'll even quote the part that's been done, so we can put aside such ridiculous overpowered skill arguments:

Avarre then clarified:

And, well, the developers do whatever their marketing wants them to do, and that's sell the game to as many people as possible. That's why there are PvE skills. If you feel this has ruined your way of gameplay, go play something else. I still feel it's a choice which skills you use. There is no problem imo.

Way to miss the obvious buddy. Why would I buy GW 2 when they already f-d up their previous title? GW went downhill and from what I'm seeing AN cares too much about casuals, inexperienced, pure idiots and simply bad players. A game that is for that kind of people won't be entertaining for me.

So we (currently) have 2 people - who are anti-current state - and will not be supporting them any longer.
So ... why should they cater to your wishes and views instead of the people who might actually support them?

Who says they should? I won't buy it, I don't care.

They don't need to cater to anyone. Try reading the last few pages again.

...
Also, having no monthly fees is what sells the game to most people.

i dunno man GW2 from the PvP side shows a lot of promise.

Actually that IS a problem. People using inbalanced crap has ruined the gameplay for a lot of other players even if they aren't using the inbalanced crap. Just because it hasn't ruined it for you doesn't mean the problem isn't there.

Don't like Don't use = Garbage.

It shows it could have a lot of promise. GW1 had that for a while... Then factions came out.
edit:
Ensign
JR
Black Mischief
Avarre
Divine Ambassador
Racthoh
Sab
Tommy Rommo aka Tommy Equals Ftw
Arkantos
Savio

Theres 10 right there that have given more information and more learning expierence in this game than 99% of the game's community combined, and it only took about 2 minutes to come up with the list. (and no I wasn't even counting myself to be fair.)

Depends on if they make GW2 in the same fashion that GW1 currently is in.

And I wouldn't say "just because of that", because I consider overpowered-as-shit skills to be quite a problem.

I think what they mean is they won't buy another Anet game after they made so many mistakes with this one, and keep making worse ones on a regular basis. Who is to say the exact same thing won't happen with GW2?

Regarding GW2: Personally I'd give them a chance and try out the beta. But I won't be as optimistic as I was for GW1; I won't look at something similar to Temple of Ages and think "Hmmm, clearly we'll get more content from other statues in retail version", or expect so much more content in retail version than what there is during the beta.

I don't really have much faith in them anymore, if you can't tell.

You are claiming, with a straight face, that these people have contributed to the game more than the devs of ANet combined? That the game is the way it is now mostly thanks to these people, not thanks to ANet? That without these people, there wouldn't probably even be a game?

Gosh. Looks like I've been doing alpha testing for all the wrong people.

No. Yichi said at the bottom of his post:

While it's not "what you asked for" he did clarify what he was referring to.

While I do greatly appreciate ANet for giving us the game, I appreciate in equal measure those who have guided their hand.

That's an interesting mode of discussion for sure. "Since I cannot answer your question I'll answer a completely different question of my own choosing as if it was what you asked in the first place."

Oh well, whatever. It doesn't matter anyway

No. But I can say with a straight face that those people probably know more (or care more) about balance than the devs.

Heres a mind blowing concept: If you think PvE is too easy w/ all these overpowered skills DONT USE THEM. If you want a challenge make it for yourself...Anet obviously wont do it for you.

Quit QQ'in, suck it up, deal with it and play the game, or if you dont like the game: dont play.

i want to add glitch finder Pablo to your list Thank you...
He probably has benefitted from these glitches but he deserves it

Here's a mind blowing concept: If your friend is drowning and you are afraid of water DON'T SAVE HIM.

Even if I ignore my friend drowning, or ignore the overpowered skills, they still exist/are happening, and ergo, are a problem.

UAX from the start is enough to for me to be interested in it. Anything they can do to make it more accessible is good!

And still no explanation on HOW that ruined it for you. But that's OK. I probably can't help you anyway. I didn't let all this ruin my game. You did. I only ask why because I wonder why it's such a big deal to you, just to understand this whole discussion. But meh.

I'm sorry you feel that way, because it's ruining your game obviously. I just find it strange that after reading thise whole thread, it's still not clear to me why people would want to make such a big deal out of it and let it ruin their game, which IMHO is still very much fun ideed.

So is Volfen and Raven. It's innovative PvE. I agree it's against build creation, but fortunately there are loads of people who are still creative dispite ursan, as this whole Ether Renewal thread proves. So I don't see a real problem.
Ermm... exactly. How did it affect you then? Because some people that used it got banned? They did a bad thing and got punished. If you didn't use it, you're fine.

I'm not sure if I understand you here... If I don't want to play in an ursan party, then I find a non-ursan party. Usually that means asking my alliance who wants to play non-ursan. So yes, I ask them not to use ursan, and they indeed don't. So it doens't affect my gameplay negatively indeed. That is correct... I think that's not just my logic.

You know my answer...

The thread was about Ether Renewal, remember? Same goes for Shadow Form, and all other imba skillbars people come up with here. You keep fencing with ursan. It's not just about ursan here.

Again you use the same old ursan argument. isn't it clear by now lots of people like ursan?

Generalizations fail. not even bothering to discuss that.

Look, I'll admit that ursan has become a part of GW that's hard to ignore, but heavens, it's just one skill! I feel sorry for you if you are letting this ruin the game for you. Same goes for other skills that can result in extremely powerfull skillbars. I for one still love the game, and intend to buy GW2 as well.

skill>time still stands. Nobody is forcing you to grind for titles or PvE skills. I've never reached a higher rank as 2 in the kurzick ladder, and 0 in the luxon ladder. That doesn't change the game for me one bit. My ursan rank isn't maxxed, I've never grinded for it. It's now R8 by just playing the game, doing quests and such, yet I can still play just fine, with or without ursan or w/e.

QFT.

Opinions are only wrong in other people's opinions. Opinions cannot be wrong by definition. The Hitler comparison is not really a good one is it? And the Holocaust is a historical fact, not an opinion. Please stay reasonable here, or refrain from posting. Such exaggerated comparisons aren't helping the discussion. We're not discussing Nazism here, we're discussing a game, and people have different opinions about it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, so who are you to call someones opinion wrong? Sure, you might not agree, but that doesn't mean someone else is wrong per definition. I'm sorry, but your posts just don't contribute to this discussion in my opinion. Some might agree with my opinion, some might not, but it's NOT wrong. ^^

casuals is fine, inexperienced even. pure idiots? why are the casual players pure idiots? I fail to see that logic. simply bad players? Now you're just insulting. Get off your high horse lest you fall from it.
Why do people have to be so elitist and insulting too? What bothers me about this thread isn't that there are different opinions on the way the game has become, but the fact that people are getting personal and insulting too. It's an open discussion, expect different opinions. No need to get rude. please.
The good part is that all QQers here won't be buying GW2, so perhaps we'll see less QQ then :P

Hear hear!