The Madness That Is Ether Renewal

The problem is that what people on forums consider a "problem" is probably a "fix" for the majority of players. Most people I know in game finds Ursan Blessing "barely sufficient" and Ether Renewal "impossible to use, checking enchantments is too complicated".

So, you're saying the majority of players are bad at the game if they actually believe that Ursan is "barely sufficient" and Ether Renewal is "impossible to use". Clearly, Ursan is more than sufficient if it is used practically everywhere, including Elite missions that are designed to be more difficult than any other area in the game. Furthermore, maintaining enchantmetns is hardly anything "too complex"; keeping up energy should not be a problem unless you're being denied of it. If that is the case, something is wrong with you.

Call me ethnocentric or elitist if you will, but some people are just more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes.

I think anet decided to dumb GW to the level of 5 year-year old children because they think they can still sell a few copies to that group. Don't blame them, they have to make money somehow. But I wonder how many GW2 customers they are losing with these dumb modifications.

Some people called for an easier PvE game.

http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=...UserId=5380397

They got it. Why would that change?

I would agree. I would say that the designers "are more qualified to make good, rational decisions and changes" than you or Avarre or Yichi et al.. And I would say that changing the game to keep the majority happy is a much more rational and good change than listening to the very, very, very small number of idiotic "elitists", that apparently can not understand that GW would most likely have been shut down a long time ago, without that majority.

Or to put it bluntly: YOU, ELITISTS, ARE NOT IMPORTANT FOR THE SUCCESS OF GUILD WARS, NEITHER IS PVP! And at the end of the day, I rather have ANet continue business, because they changed their naive vision, then fail by sticking to it.

Roughly 1855 people online in the forum. 10 care about the vision.
Roughly 1200000 players, which mean roughly 7000 cry about the deviation from the vision. I think ANet will survive, if you leave.

Why should anyone stick to a vision that failed?

No monthly fee and a fun combat system, that made the game fun for most players. But not their idiotic vision!!!! Please, stop being such an arrogant idiot. You sound like a die hard fanboy of DnD 2nd ed., that cries because they changed it into DnD 3rd ed.. I don´t care for your theoretical problem, that they left their vision.

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/f...splay.php?f=19

Look through some of the pre-Ursan skill ideas if you can still find them. Sorry to burst any bubbles, but the "PvEers never asked for imab skills" argument stands up about as well as a wet noodle in a rainstorm. Most considered them joke threads. The OPs...best to ask them.

But I do not equate such requests only to PvEers. PvPers have the same problematic portion of their sect. Its endemic in life and video games. I call them The Gimmies. They don't want to earn anything, don't want to put forth effort that others have, don't like to sweat. They want it given to them. You can tell them easily by their cry: "Gimmie Gimmie Gimmie". They come in all ages, all ranges of society...and they appear to breed prolifically as their numbers grow so fast, a surprising fact since human sexual relations requires at least some physical exertion. Then again, we now have in vitro too. That could explain the seemingly sudden rise.

I'm making a point, believe it or not. And the point is, simply, that people who want to put forth the least amount of effort to get "everything" have no business playing games, online or otherwise. You put them on a basketball court, their laziness shines; ask them to run track and cramps abound.

Stick them in a tactical game requiring area and situational awareness and its no surprise that they flounder, want "their money's worth", and want the game watered down to accommodate them. Its no surprise that heads will butt when Anet caters to them. The competitive natured folks, the ones who did not buy this game just to do everything in a flower garden want-to-waltz-along-mash-a-button-pick-a-daisy style of play, do not like having the challenge of it toned down. Saying to them "just don't use that imba stuff then" is like saying "tie your hand behind your back for me". They are after all, if attracted to the original GW's play and not simply because it was without monthly fees, strategically minded competitive players.

I'm not saying all "casual" players are like that. But the numbers are growing. Was a time when I was very casual. I did not profess to want FOW, Did not waste energy on Urgoz, and avoided enviously leering at someone who had a Tormented shield because...they'd earned it. I didn't want to put forth the effort to get that item, it served no purpose other than looking pretty, and my character's capabilities did not suffer. So I went without. Happily.

There used to be quite a few people out there like me. They accepted the limits of their time, played the game, had fun, and didn't let elite weapon sets bother them. That's what we're really talking about here: making your doll look pretty. Because if it was in any way a question of wanting a "challenge" then, quite obviously, you would step up to that task instead of asking Anet to give you step ladders.

@OP: ER is imba. /votefornerf

GGs

EDIT: Do keep in mind, that I point no fingers at anyone, even though I pulled few punches precisely because so many Gimmies seem to have flocked to this thread. If you take offense at something posted above, look in a mirror to discuss your problems with their source, not to me.

I do not know how to argue with these assertions because they blatantly disagree with logic and reality.

"Wtf @ welfare epix"

Yhalothar.

I don't know whether to laugh at you for calling Avarre an arrogant idiot or to laugh at your blatantly poor analogy.

I think I'll do both.

a) Avarre is one of the smartest people on these forums. (HEEEY he's a mod too... . ..)

and

b) the difference is, I can still keep playing 2nd Edition D&D, I can't play original Guild Wars anymore.

you're still probably running ursan, shut up.

I guess that if anyone will have children and they will start smoking cigarettes/weed, they will say "Don't like it, don't use it, ma'/pa'!". And I guess it will be okay, eh?

Because, well, it's the same situation.

YOU ARE A SELLA, YOU ARE A SELLA, SELLA LOLOLOL SELLA LOLOL.

Halve, minus 50k banned, minus 50k not playing/bored and retired/never played more than 50 hours, minut Chinese bots.

Not really seeing any evidence that GW would have failed if they stuck to their original vision. or that it has failed at all. they have simply drifted away from it.

As for ANET being better decision makers on whats best for the game, most if not all changes have been taken from player input.
Most patches show evidence of little testing at all, and are only fixed cause we are the beta testers for them. stupid ideas like a caster class having 80 armor shows that ANET isn't the be all and end all for GW knowledge and understanding. It also sounds "elitist" (if we must go with that term) to say so.

People are just too stupid to have PvE success without skills like Ursan Blessing, "Save Yourselves", and recently buffed Ether Renewal so A.net guys have to boost some skills thru the roof so that people can actually go out and hunt there stupid titles.

Made me LOL.

You have it partly right it should read "the designers SHOULD BE more qualified to make good, rational decisions." But if thats the case why are so many people leaving the game? I know quite a few people who have switched over to other MMO's.

Being in the minority doesn't make you an elitist, get off your high horse lest you fall from it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, get used to it. Changing the game just make people happy does NOT mean its a good change. It might be smart from a business perspective but if you ruin the game in the process, well lets just say thats not "smart".

You want a failed vision? How about, "Can I stop mashing 3 buttons and actually play the game yet?" I don't hate people who use Ursan. I could personally care less, but I refuse to use it. I don't enjoy the mind-numbing sensation of pressing the same three buttons over and over and over and over, with no thought to tactics or anything else. It is the very definition of a "failed vision" I actually recommend people DON'T buy this game because of it. Wow, when your player base is discouraging others from purchasing your game it doesn't get anymore "failed" than that.

First, the no monthly fee rocks and will always be a major selling point, but hey guess what? IT WAS PART OF THEIR ORIGINAL "VISION." *gasp* The combat system used to be fun, until you had resort to 3 buttons to get a group for anything. And once again everyone is entitled to their opinions whether you care for them or not. But I admire your commitment of riding that high horse out! By all means stick with your belief that everyone who disagrees with Anet and apparently you by association is an elitist. But last time I checked elitist generally meant someone who bragged about how great they were at the game and did everything they could to keep the little guy down.

Y'know, I don't suppose that amongst all the rants, arguements, claims and counterclaims, accusations of heresy etc etc etc. anyone has stopped to consider a shocking and disturbing scenario........

Could it actually be that there are thousands of PvE players who are happily using these "imba" skills and actually ENJOY playing the game with them?????.

I would offer the following thought. Classical symphonic music is the highest and best form of the art, therefore no-one should be allowed to listen to any other "debased" form of music despite any protestation to the contrary or assertions from anyone that they don't enjoy classical music and prefer another genre.

Pace

The problem with that Mouse is, right now everyone can choose to listen to what they want. In GW you can't choose which nerfs, buffs, or anything else apply to your account. And there will always be people happy and unhappy with it. As I've stated it matters naught to me I've moved on, this game doesn't work for me because of the changes so I found one, several really, that do. If GW wants to create several servers that give people a choice on how to play (of course they won't and I'm not suggesting they should) then everyone can be happy. A server with no UB, a server with no nerf on SR, etc, etc.

So those who want it to change or be nerfed aren't really any different from those who are happy with it the way it is now. The only difference is whose doing the complaining. If things change then all the dissenters will be blissfully quite while all those happy now will start complaining. Its lose/lose in this case

@Melody Cross, very good post actually enjoyed reading it. Hit the issue square on the head with that one.

Sadly I wouldn't when it comes to balance (which is what this thread is about). Nightfall is proof of that.

You are implying that the majority wasn't happy originally. You are also implying that changing the vision was required to keep the majority. Both are false.

LOL. I'm not even going to touch that one.

LOL. Prove to us it failed.

The things you mentioned were PART of their vision. Making PvE easy grind mode and destroying PvP were not.

There were many thousands who liked Guild Wars a lot more how it used to be too. Personally I would have no problem with people who want to use inbalanced crap...if I had a choice to go back to the old days of Guild Wars.

Using your analogy...it is like all the new genres killed classical, and classical no longer exists. If classical still existed, people like me would be happy and wouldn't be raging at the morons who like rap (inbalanced garbage).

No one is using the "because it's fun" argument because it's a terrible argument. One could use the exact same argument to argue the contrary with the same strength: If you say imba skills are fun, then I say imba skills are not fun.

The obvious conclusion is that the pro-classical group should not determine what everybody else listens to.

However, this analogy is just a disguised form of the "because it's fun" argument - one could equally say a "debased" form of music is superior and offer the same assertions.

I bet you keep telling yourself "It's free. It's free. It's free." repeatedly while playing Guild Wars.

Does it really help make the game fun, though?

Really?

For real?

It doesn't seem to work for me, though.

They could have tried forcing people to play PvP, that was their idea to make a PvE game, that you finish once and then you start with PvP, which should be about "skill" and not equipment.
But the "crushing majority" never started PvP! They didn´t share the vision of ANet and therefore it failed.

You personal logic and reality doesn´t count! Remember "crushing majority" that does not play PvP!!!

I don´t know for how long those people have played the game, but I myself took a one year long break from the game, because it got boring. So it doesn´t necessarily mean that the game is bad.

I know, but being in the minority and believing that YOUR way to play, is the only right one, does!

I don´t see how you can say the game was ruined, if a huge number of players still enjoy playing it? Oh, it was ruined for the small minority, my bad. I don´t care.


Not so much the vision, more like the business modell, but close enough, so touché.

I don´t play with other players and I very much still enjoy the combat system. You need a better guild/alliance.

that's because they were uneducated idiots who failed to notice basic advertisizing.

ps: you're still wrong, a huge majority of people PvP'd back then. There used to be more distracts in Heroes Ascent than Lion's Arch at times.

You don't seem to notice that if that's true, then the crushing majority bought the game anyway even if the content was directed at loftier goals. A-net should have taken their money, continued to put out this online RPG without a monthly-fee (obviously what enticed people who didn't care about pvp or quality competitive gameplay), and kept their vision for quality. Instead they raced to the bottom to try to appease the whining masses (the crushing majority that bought the game even without understanding or caring for the original design goals), moving the brand toward mediocrity in the process.

Guild wars would have been a financial success regardless of direction. What changed is its perception by the higher level playerbase (people who post on forums, run community sites, etc.) as WoW-lite after the A-net management got dollar signs in the eyes.

I think you are strongly underestimating the amount of people who PvP or used to PvP. But that isn't the point.

The idea was never to FORCE people to play PvP. The idea was to BLEND the two sides in a way that you could easily go from PvE to PvP. The idea was not to split the two sides completely. The vision NEVER meant you had to quit PvE.

When people talk about the original vision, they are talking about skill>time and being a competitive game (with no monthly fees). Both of those are advertised on the original game and stated many times by the Anet founders, and both of those are all but gone today.

It isn't bad, but you never responded to the point. Anet has shown us that they either don't know much or don't care about balance, and things like Nightfall/UB/EP prove it.

It wasn't ruined, it just got worse than it used to be. I bet if you took a large poll you'd find that most people liked Guild Wars better in the old days. That isn't just PvP players...that would be from everybody PvE included. All the changes made to the game are starting to make it feel like "just another MMORPG" to me. Anet should have pressed what was unique for them (their original vision). They would have had just as many players if not more.

The only difference of Guild Wars for me today is no monthly fee, and if you tacked a monthly fee on to Guild Wars, I bet almost nobody would play it. That says a lot.

Excellent post.

I don't think ANet ever wanted to "force" players into PvP, but they hoped players would naturally progress from PvE into PvP. That part may not have worked out, but it didn't mean the whole original vision failed. In fact, they moved away from this idea to strengthen the main part of that vision, skill > time, with the introduction of PvP characters.

Now try arguing with the bolded part, or even, provide evidence that moving away from the original vision actually brought the game any more success.

You'd have to make that poll for people who started before any of the new Chapters, because anyone who started later wouldn't know what 'the old days' were actually like.

Very well put.

Oh dear, I must have missed the memo that went round about the motivation for playing games. In that case I'll just carry on playing because I enjoy it until someone explains to me what other reason there should be for doing all this............................

The thing with saying "ANet did this to be more of a success", is that Guild Wars was doing just fine waaaay before all of this crap: 3 million mark, 4 million mark.

Regardless of "how fun it is," there's still an integrity that has to be maintained in the game. The "because it's fun" argument is rather weak because I can use that same argument to justify having five billion hit points.

If you actually read my post and tell me where I say its my way or the highway then I'll give you props. However if you actually read my posts you'll see that I state everyone is intended to their opinion. I don't care how Anet makes their game, if I don't like it I have no issue playing another game. What I find offensive is your "holier than thou" attitude. If you don't care about what anyone here thinks then why even bother posting? You are your own definition of elitist. You've done nothing but mock and label those who dislike the way the game is now as the elitist minority. So we dislike it, so what? Get over it. What are you afraid of that Anet might actually listen to us?

We dislike it and we state why. Did I say I know the perfect solution? Did I say I could solve all the problems if everyone plays the way I like to? No I did not.



The game is ruined for me personally. As I stated I have other games to play. I'd love for Anet to "fix" things, yes they would be "fixes" for me. Would everyone be happy, no. Do I expect or demand the changes? No. But I feel my dislikes of the game should be stated, and I have that right to post them.

Well I'm glad your single solo foray through Guild Wars should dictate how everyone else should play. Isn't that exactly what you've been preaching against? That the minority shouldn't rule. The majority of the players do in fact group up, maybe not always but they do. A decent number of players don't belong to a good guild/alliance. I'm done with your hypocrisy, and "I don't care what you think, but you should all listen to me attitude."

Seriously EPIC fail.

No - the true statement is should read "regardless of "how fun it is," in my opinion there's still an integrity that has to be maintained in the game."

Please admit the possibility there could be an equally valid contradictory opinion

I'm just going to mark you as "Idiot" for labeling people who PvP as "Elitists". And once you prove how the vision failed, because last time I checked, it didn't. My proof is the good reviews off players themselves, most of which are likely to have quit given the direction this game turned towards.

They were doing fine with sales before this big dynamic change. They still had over 2 million sales before the introduction of PvE skills, very good for the MMO field(yeah, I know it's a CORPG). As was said before, they new players aren't the ones that cried for change. Including that moron on 1up, they were players who had played the game for many months, yet were either too lazy to work on their game, or too bad at time management to do elite areas. There is nothing wrong with not getting the knack for a certain game. Hell, you could be great at this game and suck balls at Halo. However, it doesn't mean that Halo should be dumbed down for you, and neither does it mean that there should be a win button so you can access areas that are supposed to be for people who gained the skill to play the game well.

A lot of people who used to be great PvE players, and gave good advice on these and other forums, left the game because of this dynamic change in the meta. In an MMO, where a community can be important, this isn't a good thing. It's a sign that the game has been changed. If people are willing to leave a game that is free to play for subscription games(AoC, LotRO, WoW), that is a sign your formula isn't working.

So in your opinion (or an opinion that you say is valid) all the game's integrity can just be thrown out; everyone can have 5 billion hit points, 10 billion damage skills, and dupe items/gold freely? Ok, totally valid opinion.

You seem to be posting from some precieved belief that you--and you alone--are the best qualified voice for the majority on this thread. If I am incorrect about this, I appologize beforehand. However, this remains my preception after reading your posts.

Allow me to administer a reality check: you are not the majority. You are a single voice.

You may speak for your friends. You may speak for yourself, your guild, even your alliance if they so choose to let you. But you do not speak for me. You do not speak for my guild, or most of the guilds/alliances I have ever been in. Those guilds who might nod their heads at what you say, I tend to leave, and leave quickly.

The crushing majority speak for themselves, and its easy to hear them. You go to trade cities and count the districts. You go to newb areas and see how many characters are being created and leveled.

The crushing majority speak by remaining a majority of active players. When they dwindle, when they leave, I--and I would hope Anet as well--worry.

There are fewer districts in Kamadon than there used to be.

Beyond remaining aware of that trend, attempts to speak directly to the mob always end in failure. We are not Legion; we are a few million people with differing opinions about everything ranging from preffered in-game professions to political beliefs.

You are not the crushing majority. And you are not their champion. Speak for yourself or (I hesitate to say this because I believe that all have a voice, but by speaking for the majority, you presume to speak for me) shut the hell up.

That may be true, but you're acting as if ANet always makes the best decisions possible; appealing to authority isn't going to make your argument better. Furthermore, I do agree that businesses should generally act with a utilitarian ethic. However, in this case it is clear that the "majority" was ignorant, and catering to an ignorant majority is a bad decision. We are talking about a business that is essentially democratic in its decision making, which can be a good thing as long as the majority of players aren't ignorant.


I lol'd. Let me remind you that Guild Wars has one of the best PvP systems among MMOs (LOL GUILD WARS ISNT AN MMO). Furthermore, the original intention of ANet's plan was that PvErs would go play PvP at some point, but since that didn't happen they introduced meaningless titles. Oh wait, ANet gave them meaning when they created shitty PvE only skills and inherent title benefits (Reputation titles, Lightbringer), and made requirements on these titles for progressing through the game. Adding grind requirements to progress through the storyline exactly contradicts their original premise.

This game has degraded itself over time.

Did you actually fail to read my post, or did you intentionally quote it out of context because your argument fell apart?

I dont think that the game has really gotten worse over time its just that its a 3 year old game and we expect more is all, well the more will be GW2 hopefully so lets not be too worked up.

Also i hate the "they should force pvp more" argument. Some people just dont like pvp so forcing some one to do it isnt really going to help the game

Agreed 100%. I don't know why ANet changed from the skill>time advertisement that they were originally pushing. At the beginning when prophecies was just out it was easy to get max damage equipment and armor, even if they didn't have perfect damage modifiers. Then SF and greens were added and it became easier to have perfect gear; everyone was on a level playing field and could get items without much grind.

Fast forward to now, and the grind required for some titles is simply ridiculous. Take faction farming for example. To achieve the max title it takes 12,500 HFFF runs. Even at a good one run per minute that's 208 hours of constant running. What was ANet thinking? The only practical way to obtain this title is through HFFF running which is incredibly monotonous and "grindy." There's no skill involved. The only thing that matters for this title and the skills related to it are hours spent. Nevermind any of the other titles that give benefits for hours played over skill...

I'm not really frustrated at how much grind is required, but over how the direction of GW has changed so much from being a skill>time game to just a huge grindfest in PvE

Nope - I didn't quote you out of context because my arguement fell apart. I quoted one part of your response because, in my opinion it posited an opinion as a fact.

Speaking personally, this thread reminds me (sadly) of others I've seen on different boards where one faction sets itself up as the defenders of "orthodoxy" and condems all contrary viewpoints.

In my opinion if someone believes something to be the truth, then however much they try to convince me of the validity of their position, unless I'm personally swayed by their empirical evidence, I'll remain unconvinced/undecided.

Once again, in my opinion, this whole arguement is becoming circular. Personally speaking, I'll carry on playing as long as I enjoy it. When it stops being fun, I'll do something else. At the moment, playing this game is still enjoyable to me. I have only used Ursan three times in about 30 months and 3,500 hours of playtime. I've never used Ether Renewal at all. If other PvE players like those skills - so be it. As far as I can see, to date, their use of them does not affect me directly or make the game less enjoyable for me.

Ultimately the choice of whether to continue playing this game with or without Ursan, Ether Renewal or any other skill that has been introduced/nerfed/buffed since game inception is down to me.

Eventually I'll move on to something else, however, at the moment I'm happy enough with the product Anet is providing, so I'll continue.

That's my opinion and my choice. Everyone else is free to make their own.

Thank you and goodnight.

Opinions can be wrong, so I don't see why you have to bold it all the time, it means very little.




It's my opinion Adolf Hitler was the best guy to walk the earth and the Holocaust never happened.

See?

Completely wrong.

My entire post was a statement of fact because I did not inject any opinion into it. More specifically, I am stating as a *fact* that the argument "because it's fun" is a bad argument. If you happened to have read past the first sentence you would have seen my reason. I cannot help but think you intentionally cut off the rest to build yourself a nice straw man to beat down.

I did not even say which side I supported, for all you can tell from that post, I could very well find imbalanced skills fun and simply arguing to build a stronger case for our side.

While this is off the topic, sticking "in my opinion" in front of every sentence is redundant. Intelligent readers can assume subjective statements are opinion ("x" is fun), while objective statements are fact (ANet made "x" sales). This is only a problem when someone explicitly states an opinion as a fact or vice versa ("'x' is fun and that is a fact", or, "in your opinion ANet made 'x' sales"). Otherwise, calling people out for not using "imo" is like calling people out for misspellings. It adds nothing to the discussion, and it further suggests that one does not have much of an argument to begin with.