An Open Letter to ANet - Part 2 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

12 Jun 2008 at 04:59 - 281

Excellent reply to an excellent thread. Good work Avarre.

I might point out firstly that Sha 'mysteriously' disappearing, was him rage-quitting Guild Wars after the major let-down that Eye of the North turned out to be. Sha and I have played together on various occasions since, but it usually ends in us stopping due to the game either being too easy, or being unenjoyable to play due to monsters seemingly catering for an Ursan or Para-way strength team.

What disappointed me in this thread, was the reply from our "Community Relations" dev. Building a relationship with your community is not going to be easy if you suggest everyone post on the Official wiki in order to suggest things, considering that for the last 3 years we have been doing that on this and various other fansites.

I feel that the CR team are taking the easy route, and expecting people to come to them with suggestions. This is why your game has been declining in terms of activity and popularity on fansites. Your job is to communicate with the community, yet you do not do this. You expect us to communicate with you. How do you expect us to take CR seriously if all of our suggestions and ideas fall on deaf ears.

The fact that Regina actually replied to this thread is at least a step towards the right path, but even then the reply itself lacked substance and didn't actually address the issues at all. Even more disappointingly, Sha's thread was never replied to in the first place. This is a major problem in the eyes of myself and many other members of the community. The fact that the CR team ignore threads and suggestions that are important to us, shows that they are not serious about improving the game.

I would like to direct your attention to this quote, which applies quite well here;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Truly, the primary problem with your game design, in my opinion, is that you have no real way of judging how happy or upset the community is; they buy the game, then it stops mattering what you do it. The money is in your pocket. You can delete all the skills in the game and your subscriptions won't go away because there aren't any; if everyone stopped playing right now, today, you could look at the sales figures and claim the whole thing was a huge success, and completely ignore the millions of enraged players who would be wondering just how badly they've been duped.

This seems to come true when you look at how poorly the CR team manage the relationship they have with the community. Yes they have our money. Yes the game is a 'success' in ANet's eyes. But no, that does not mean that they can just sit back and expect the game to continue running smoothly as it did when it was first released. Things have changed since then, and GW has become less attractive to play, due to the continued ignorance of what the community KNOW would be good for the game.

The game will continue down the path that it is on now if the CR team refuse to do their jobs properly. We don't expect you to be on guru 24 hours a day, but at least regularly enough to understand the issues we have with the game. Clearly this is not being done. Either improve this, or you will find yourselves with a failed game on the release of GW2.

You know it is the truth. We know it is the truth. Look at the Ursan complaints. More importantly, look at the complaints with accounts being hacked. What has been done to resolve these? Nothing. With issues this big on the forum, there should be at least communication with players as to how it should be resolved. And yet we are ignored, and the game is changed as though we never existed.

This is your second chance Anet. Your first chance was wasted when Sha posted his thread. If this opportunity to improve things is wasted, I have a feeling a lot of the community will not give you the time of day, let alone consider buying GW2. Stop ignoring what is blatantly being displayed here. Your CR team is doing a very poor job, and you are making bad decisions in the game that are affecting the community.

- Fenix

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

12 Jun 2008 at 05:05 - 282

Regina, I read your reply, and I'll let it speak for itself. However, there's a few parts I will reply to directly. (By the way, my 'challenge' of sorts still remains open. I just want to hear that one statement, if it's true or not.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

There are reasons behind each design decision, though some players in the community may not agree with them. As you admitted, one of the things ArenaNet needs to do is try and please everyone. With the number of different perspectives and play styles out there, this is a monumental task and we do our best.

This is exactly what I mentioned myself. There's a 'reason' behind everything, I want to know why that reason exists and what it is. I don't want to know 'we thought this would encourage blah blah blah', I want to know why exactly changes to the game design were made, the reasons behind the overall shift. Saying there is a reason behind everything is basically just saying 'god moves in mysterious ways', which is exactly the problem I mentioned in terms of CR response being empty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Another point you made is regarding the collection and organization of community feedback. The design team does regularly consult with and solicits feedback from experienced and knowledgable players. I and other members of the team are accessible through our wiki pages and through PMs on the forums as well. I and the other members of the community team have been communicating with players through email, forum PMs, in-game, on the wiki, and in the forums at large. However these discussions are dispersed through many different mediums and there is no single, unified place where feedback is visibly given and read.

Forums can be a great place for discussion, they are not necessarily the best place for organizing feedback in such a way that people (players and devs) can easily find it, search for suggestions that are the most popular, or figure out which pieces of feedback rank highly in terms of importance to the community.

The collection of information and the organization of such to present to the devs is the job and responsibility of the community relations department. Community Relations is there to collect the raw data opinions of everyone who responds, select the important parts, and present them to the devs. It is not the responsibility of the community to order its feedback in 3,000+ word posts. I don't want to be told that forums are too big for effective feedback to be easily found by the developers, because I don't expect the developers to be reading them anyways. I do expect the Community Relations department to be going through every bit of the forum feedback, because that is their job - and if it isn't written explicitly in the job description, it should be.

Ugly_Jim

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2005

12 Jun 2008 at 05:09 - 283

Most of the points are just things that the serious GW crowd (the GW community) wants. Anet has no reason to make amends or communicate at all with the vocal minority, much less change the game because we want it done. And I'm probably as active if not more so in GW as anyone here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taki

OP is too long, too verbose, and employs an inappropriate style/tone that defeats it's own purpose.

I had a very similar thought.

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

12 Jun 2008 at 05:11 - 284

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

From what I gathered, you feel that developers should place more importance on balancing a game for existing players rather than new players, hence the criticism that making the game "too easy" is bad for players as a whole, and that GW:EN and the introduction of PvE-only skills contributed to this. Your opinion is that Guild Wars has strayed too far from its original vision and now lacks depth, which it once had.

These changes have been made over a relatively long period of time and can't be addressed all at once. There are reasons behind each design decision, though some players in the community may not agree with them.

Regina, I understand that the developers, the community relations group, etal have been trying to communicate more to the playerbase to give the rationale for their decisions.

However, the core of what Avarre posted (which you nicely summarized above) has never been directly addressed by the developers (as far as I've read). In short, is it the developers' view that the majority of the playerbase does not care about balance in PvE, and would rather have very powerful skills to "blow up stuff" quickly?

There's an isolated quote from Isaiah that people like to quote on the site, and many of us would like to know if that is the true "vision" the developers have for PvE.

Carinae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jun 2005

Inside

Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]

12 Jun 2008 at 05:18 - 285

Excellent post Avarre.

Anet lost its vision with Nightfall, although they were already on the slippery road with Factions. GW:EN completely destroyed that vision entirely.

Too much focus on the 'new' playerbase, no attention at all to the respected, senior players in either PvP or PvE. These people know the game very, very well and have given their advice repeatedly in many, many posts on this and other forums...to no avail.

Instead we get things like "Concise Skill Descriptions". Who was calling for THAT update? Why were resources wasted on THAT? That update probably took a month or more for a programmer (or two) at a time when the forums are filled with legitimate problems and intelligent solutions. It signifies a total disconnect between the developers and the playerbase, as well as a total lack of management of the Anet developers.

It's representative of the total lack of direction, call it a loss of vision if you want, on the part of Anet. They HAD a vision of GuildWars that was unique and inventive. They lost it. However, they didn't replace it with ANYTHING. They are just floundering around now aimlessly, implementing unneeded (see above), and sometimes contradictory changes, while remaining oblivious to the real problems. Management lost it's vision.

ArenaNET needs to listen to the forums, and to do so as an active participant. They need to know the difference between a stupid post and an intelligent one. Not all posts should be weighted the same; especially coming from a unique game like GuildWars, there are going to be a LOT of posts by people coming from WoW and D2 wanting things that don't belong here. Don't change GuildWars around these peoples wishes. They don't understand how the game works, they are approaching it from the wrong mindset. I know, I did it too when I started. I know better now. Three years in, and the developers should also.

Monster-skills
PvE skills (and their allegiance ranks)
Heroes
Consumables (of all types)
Stupid PvE titles (especially one that affect things in PvE)
Seperating PvE and PvP

These are some of the additions to the game that destroyed PvE. These are the root causes of much of the problems. It's a co-operative game, decreasing the need for co-operation bleeds the game. GuildWars. Emphasis on Guild.

People are leaving not because there are problems. They are leaving because it's become clear ArenaNET doesn't understand those problems, and/or care about them. They are leaving in despair. The true problem is management. They have either lost their vision, or don't have a clue. There is despair in that realization because, it's not a problem that can be solved on our side (the playerbase) of the conversation. And frankly, at this point, only radical changes can save GuildWars, and I don't see that happening.

Basically, the senior playerbase is wrapping up the last few titles/achievements on beloved characters and then going on hiatus. It's just too disheartening to continue.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

12 Jun 2008 at 05:21 - 286

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

This is exactly what I mentioned myself. There's a 'reason' behind everything, I want to know why that reason exists and what it is. I don't want to know 'we thought this would encourage blah blah blah', I want to know why exactly changes to the game design were made, the reasons behind the overall shift. Saying there is a reason behind everything is basically just saying 'god moves in mysterious ways', which is exactly the problem I mentioned in terms of CR response being empty.

Pretty much agree.

I think the void of CR response is due to the overall 'greedy' reasons behind the changes. I, for the life of me, cannot remember who said it, but I truly believe this: Ursan, and all the other imba PvE crap, exists to encourage people to title farm and fill their HoM. This way, very few people will feel 'left out' by the time GW2 comes around, and will actually have more incentive to purchase it. It is a relatively intelligent marketing trap, and admitting to it will do nothing but piss everyone off.

Plain and simple, any other answer will likely not be the truth, so it's better they not answer at all. Better for all of us, actually. Really, what other reason could there be?

Edge Martinez

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

NC

DKL

12 Jun 2008 at 05:24 - 287

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Dear A-Net,

First, I would like to clarify that this isn't a flame, or a rant, but rather a collection of warranted complaints and questions that need real answers.

Holy flashbacks. That sounded like me ex-girlfriend right before I dumped her.

Otherwise, /signed.

EDIT: Sara, that you? :/

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

12 Jun 2008 at 05:30 - 288

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

There's a 'reason' behind everything, I want to know why that reason exists and what it is. I don't want to know 'we thought this would encourage blah blah blah', I want to know why exactly changes to the game design were made, the reasons behind the overall shift.

And this, right here, is the most unreasonable demand in your entire letter, and an indication of a wrongful sense of entitlement. Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

xarchitect

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2006

E/

12 Jun 2008 at 05:31 - 289

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

As you admitted, one of the things ArenaNet needs to do is try and please everyone. With the number of different perspectives and play styles out there, this is a monumental task and we do our best.

I can assure you that our team has a strong goal for what we want to accomplish with Guild Wars 2, and hopefully we can get this across in future communications.

Thank you for responding Regina. I do want to throw out a caution to the development team as you consider these two comments that I perceive are the critical points moving forward.

As an architect, I will use the example of a house. An architect who needs to design a house that will please everyone will ultimately find himself building a boring tract house with white siding and a two car garage. Sure, the house is fine to live in. Nobody loves it though and any other architect could also design the same house so why would anyone hire you specifically to do it? If you design the best house that you can, you will create a masterpiece (if you are good) and everyone will want to live there because it is beautiful. Look up Fallingwater or Villa Savoye and tell me that you would pick bland suburbia over these.

This is esentially what you achieved when you released Phophecies. You did not yet have a fan community filled with suggestions so you were able to concentrate on doing the game the right way. The developers had a strong design objective and they very successfully executed it. After it was released, you unfortunately fell into the trap of listening to those who don't know any better.

I don't think at this point you can "fix" Guild Wars 1, because what someone thinks is an improvement, another will say ruined the game and will quit. But what is clear is that it does not have the integrity of the fresh-from-the-box Prophecies game. And it is the integrity of that first released version that is responsible for nearly all of your sales. You have developers with talent, just keep their ears away from anyone who has only played the game for a limited time and could not possibly get the depth of the game as eloquently described by Avarre.

So as you develop GW2, my advice is that you DO NOT attempt to please anyone. The developers of the game need to establish a vision and maintain the integrity of that vision throughout the life of the game.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

12 Jun 2008 at 05:39 - 290

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

And this, right here, is the most unreasonable demand in your entire letter, and an indication of a wrongful sense of entitlement. Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

Well, firstly, the part you quoted isn't even in my letter. Mainly because I don't expect it.

Personally however, I'd rather go with a company that I know the development goals of. StarCraft 2, for example, is clearly set out as a game being developed for competitive multiplayer, and therefore I know what to expect and what to anticipate. Guild Wars... I don't even know. I don't think anyone does. It's not giving away corporate secrets to at least give us a goal statement.

Cacheelma

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Ascalon Union

Me/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 05:42 - 291

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

You did? YOU?

Am I the only one feeling sad after reading that?

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

12 Jun 2008 at 05:42 - 292

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

And this, right here, is the most unreasonable demand in your entire letter, and an indication of a wrongful sense of entitlement. Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

unfortunately for anet and your argument, anet cannot AFFORD to keep everything hidden. doing so will cause them serious problems down the road. with their ability to execute and manage a game with a clear, strong vision current in question, the last thing they should do is to hide everything behind closed doors.

Mad King Corn

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 05:46 - 293

I think the BEST things Anet has done for Guild wars is:

PVE Skills
Heroes
Consumables

and finally the separation of PVE from PVP, that should have been separate from day one.

I am disabled, and the availability of Consumables, PVE skills etc has helped my enjoyment of the game drastically. If it was not for these things, I would have left guild wars long ago. I understand that some people may possess skill and are a bit more mobile than I am, so those people can easily breeze through areas of the game that stop my progress dead in my tracks. I can't tell you how many times I have been so frustrated with a mission or a quest that I just wanted to quit GW forever and not look back. I can honestly say that without certain PVE skills and consumables, Guild Wars would be unplayable and therefore un-enjoyable for me. I believe that Anet created these things for handicapped players like myself, as well as players that simply may lack the ability to create a viable build in areas where there are level 28-30 mobs with almost unlimited energy and health with monster skills that are far more overpowered than the PVE skills that we have at our disposal.
That is why they need to be in the game. Not all of us are gods or elitists at Guild Wars, I just wish more people would try and remember that.

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

12 Jun 2008 at 05:51 - 294

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Well, firstly, the part you quoted isn't even in my letter. Mainly because I don't expect it.

I could have quoted the OP as well, in which you wrote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The first problem is this. I don’t know who’s making changes to PvE. I don’t know why these changes are being made. ... (snip snip) ... because this is not good for the game.

The first problem with the game is that you don't get to know who calls the shots and why?

Cacheelma

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jun 2005

The Ascalon Union

Me/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 05:51 - 295

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

I am disabled, and the availability of Consumables, PVE skills etc has helped my enjoyment of the game drastically. If it was not for these things, I would have left guild wars long ago.

If I were told in 2004 that GW will change the entire game to please handicapped people a few years later, I wouldn't have bothered with it.

Am I alone in this?

darkangel921

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2005

Dragon Lance [TAS]

Mo/

12 Jun 2008 at 06:00 - 296

/signed
BRAVO Avarre, I have been playing since 3/19/05 and and I share every thought and observation in your letter.

moriz

??ber t??k-n??sh'??n

Join Date: Jan 2006

Canada

R/

12 Jun 2008 at 06:02 - 297

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cacheelma

If I were told in 2004 that GW will change the entire game to please handicapped people a few years later, I wouldn't have bothered with it.

Am I alone in this?

nope. computer games, as callous of me to say, are, and will never be, developed with disabled people in mind. at least, games that are aimed at the general public won't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The first problem with the game is that you don't get to know who calls the shots and why?

i personally would be very pissed off if i live in a country don't have a clearly defined "leader", and if it never tells me why it manages the country in a certain way. the same holds true for gaming communities.

Chthon

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Apr 2007

12 Jun 2008 at 06:07 - 298

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1 up and 2 down

Actually she is doing her job perfectly, think about it. Anet probably plans on not doing anything about ursan or doing anything significant to PvE balance anytime soon. So would you rather that Regina out right say "We aren't going to do anything about GW1 because we just don't care anymore"? Or should she lie and say "Yes we will fix everything". No she shouldn't because either way lots of people will be pissed when they read the first quote or find out she/devs lied about fixing the game. It's better that she just side steps the main question, that way there will be less anger among the community because they don't know what the devs plan on doing.

Honestly would be a better policy. If the truth is "we aren't going to do anything about GW1 because we just don't care anymore," then say it. First of all, as a moral matter, one ought to be honest, even in business. Even lawyers are honest, well most of them at least. Second, your customers have got to be pretty dumb to fall for that for very long. It's not hard to draw the negative inference from a refusal to answer the question. Third, even the wammos and ursans are eventually going to figure it out, and then you're going to lose more respect and more customers who feel like they were tricked and strung along than if you had just told them the trusth in the first place.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

12 Jun 2008 at 06:08 - 299

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

The first problem with the game is that you don't get to know who calls the shots and why?

The problem is when they put through changes that none of us want, and don't explain why. Time and time again players like Ensign have posted up VERY large and popular threads on the exact changes that should be put through, and time and time again Anet put through completely different changes, that don't help anyone at all. We just want to know WHY they put through their changes, rather than the ones the community want, as a starting point.

That doesn't require breaking NDA, right?

Laylat

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/

12 Jun 2008 at 06:30 - 300

Great Post

/Signed

P.S.: Can someone please tell me what QFT stands for? Thanks!

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

12 Jun 2008 at 06:35 - 301

QFT = Quoted for Truth.

Kyp Jade

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2006

USA

Lack of Talent [Luck]

P/

12 Jun 2008 at 06:46 - 302

OP was very well put out. It is for reasons as those that I have put Guild Wars aside. Before the last twenty or so horrible design decisions that make Anet look exactly like Blizzard. I have no faith GW2 will have the originality GW did. None at all. I see a clone of every other MMO, just with different lore.

Funny, since GW2 is going to be a poor mans wow, I figure I might as well play a better game thats pay to play. Definatly not wow, but I am looking for something. Currently trying my hand in Age of Conan, but thats besides the point, and the devs there are horrible at communicating with the playerbase. WHile it might seem anet are holding to much back. You guys really need to give credit where credit is due. Anet staff are AMAZING at telling us what is going on compared to other companies out there.

That being said, Anet shot themselves in the foot in the begining I think.
They tried hard to make the game skill over time. But then they had to cater to teh casual players, whom they also said the game was for. Thats two very different design paths to take. And in my humble opinon, they took the wrong path.

Casual gamers can still enjoy something that hardcore gamers get a kick out of. Hardcore gamers absolutly despise dumbed down button mash fests that youve turned the game in to.

Zesbeer

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

LLJK

12 Jun 2008 at 06:59 - 303

well this tread has been a fire storm of sorts. and also got an interesting reply from anet. i feel like it was a week reply.

i for one go back to one point i have been making on regina's wiki page and that is look at other game commpanis like blizzard, ea (bad example they have got the worst forums ever.) and just look and see what kinds of ways that they try and communicate with the community. one big way those companys do it is by a podcast or video interviews.

sorry to one and all but im not going to spend my time reading all 304 posts + seeing as i am just now joining the conversation so if this stuff was already discused sorry.

WNL

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2008

12 Jun 2008 at 07:21 - 304

I agree on the part that design emphasis on PvE skills have lead to regular GW skill being push to the side, but I think it's not a great idea to write a block of text to get a few points across, this is not a composition competition, a clear concise and better attitude from OP would have a better reception and readership from devs (if he/she intend to get the point across).

But I don't agree on some parts, particularly on the "easier for newbies", players left for [insert reasons here] kind of statements.

Spangly_boy

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2006

Plymouth Uk

Imperium Legionis

E/Me

12 Jun 2008 at 07:24 - 305

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina

We're addressing the transparency issue with more frequent and visible Dev Updates. Do you have additional suggestions on how devs can improve this? One of the ideas someone proposed was to have devs participate in forums personally. This is pretty hot topic at ArenaNet, and until we can come to some sort of agreement on how we would like this to work, the Dev Updates and wiki pages are the main tools for the developers to use.
I communicate with tons of people from the community each week. This wiki and the visible areas of the internet, like the forums, are not the only methods I have been using to get feedback and answer questions. For example, people PM me on the forums regularly and I have instant message conversations on Xfire. I personally answer questions and have dialogue with individuals on email. I actually participated in an ad hoc, informal chat on Xfire other day with members of a Guild Wars group in that community. I am accessible and people do take their concerns to me, but just because you don't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.
You say you want to know what's going on, and when I tell you that these issues are being discussed and debated, it's not a satisfactory answer. Game design decisions are not made by one person. They are made through discussions and collaboration, so unfortunately you cannot have immediate results. The dev team is currently split between two huge projects: maintaining GW1 and developing GW2. There are staffing issues here. We're actually recruiting for more developers so that we can work on both games. The recruiting process is taking a while because we want to get the right people on board, but the goal is to have one designer and one programmer dedicated exclusively to GW1 so that we can work on these GW1 issues that are so pressing. This is a positive thing, because it will take the work load off of those who need to work on GW2. I'm sorry that we are making slow progress on the issues that you've brought to our attention recently, but the reality is that we don't currently have the resources to work on everything in GW1 that needs attention, however we are addressing it through recruiting efforts and exploring ways that we can more efficiently collect feedback. --Regina Buenaobra 01:25, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

The messages are getting across.

0siris

Riding the Gravy Train

Join Date: Oct 2005

Chicago Area

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

W/

12 Jun 2008 at 07:40 - 306

epic thread...but you ppl need to summarize your posts

I could have read a good novel in the time it took me to read this thread

/signed to make it legit.

Anarkii

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

-None-

R/Me

12 Jun 2008 at 08:08 - 307

This post will probably get lost between the QFTs and /signed posts, but I'll go ahead anyway.

Look at what Gaile Gray did in her span as Community Manager, and go back and see what Sanya Thomas did for Mythic. In a recent article titled '10 most powerful people in MMOs' was the name of Sanya Thomas. She 'defined' what a Community Manager was for MMOs. A CM is not a moderator, is not a messenger, is not a spokesperson. It's way beyond that.

Devs *report* to Community Managers in the sense that they have to explain design and development decisions to the CM, and they have to logically convince the CM that it is beneficial to the game. A CM does not go requesting devs for tidbits of info, which he/she copy-pastes into 5 different places.

If you weren't around in the DAoC days, look at how WoW's community management has improved over the past 3 years. The lead designers give detailed interviews almost every month about the direction the game is heading.They have regular podcasts, newsletters outlining the recent changes and upcoming changes and why stuff is happening.

ANet took the completely wrong approach to Community Management. They employed a messenger instead of a community manager.

Zorgy

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Jun 2007

Paris, France

[any]

W/Me

12 Jun 2008 at 08:10 - 308

"....The problem is when they put through changes that none of us want, and don't explain why. Time and time again players like Ensign have posted up VERY large and popular threads on the exact changes that should be put through, and time and time again Anet put through completely different changes, that don't help anyone at all. We just want to know WHY they put through their changes, rather than the ones the community want, as a starting point..."

If you mean GWGURU community...it includes 0.001% of the whole players base.....

http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/

"...Pay close attention to complexity creep. Don’t assume that most of your players are reading your website and consuming information about your game. Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it’s important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so..."

Kashrlyyk

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

12 Jun 2008 at 08:21 - 309

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

PvP and PvE have essentially grown into two different games branded with the same franchise name. While PvE has introduced ways of making the game accessible, PvP remains a highly frustrating juggernaut. One might say that this will make winning to be more rewarding, but I know some people who do not play games for reasons of self-punishment, rather have a more laid back approach towards their free time and do not need competitive self-affirmation. Hence PvE and PvP became two different games. The alleged superior adaptability and skill of the PvP players is, however, very limited when it comes to accepting new game modes besides Team Deathmatch ganking. "Omg, we have to capture strategic locations, wtfbbq, this ain't PvP qq."

I also remember a flash flood of threads claiming that Nightfall was too hard. Big surprise, one year later it is too easy. Could it be that people actually get better? But make no mistake, nerfing Ursan will not bring back an elusive definition of skill based on failing at playing the game. It will only lead to the second dirtiest way of farming gold to be exclusively used. Because that is what Ursan boils down to. It's a gold farming skill used at areas of high revenue. It is an illusion to think that if Ursan did not exist, all of you would find a good Pugging group to raid the UW. No, the game would take a step back to two-man farming or groups of three smiting their way. That's not an improvement, that's another layer of the same thing and you would still not find a group. You would still be poor and you would still be frustrated with drops.

Inside well organized guilds Ursan is not annoying at all. It's a fun addition to the game. Remember when you asked for mounts to ride on that do extra heavy damage? Remember when Izzy shrugged that off? Now Ursan basically does what people always expected of riding a fiery dragon through town and suddenly it is wrong? The only thing Ursan hurts are the feeling of those that lived in the dreamland of exclusivity and representative vanity. But no, you are not the only ones in the world to own equipment X or have a few titles. And yes, those titles are dirt cheap even without Ursan, IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS! Each time Arenanet makes a step to keep the game playable, some players with very elitist attitudes ask for those measures to be removed and the game to be turned into an exercise of self-mutilation which only the forum masters can suffer though. But that's not gaming, that is the reason why Fury failed, that's the reason why many other games failed. Being too hardcore can be a bad thing.

So stop complaining the game is too easy and recognize the truth: dying at Thunderhead Keep were not the good old times of balance, it was your epic fail at playing the game. Even if Ursan forces players down the road where the build itself is no longer the issue, they still can screw up at every corner and they still pump themselves up with consumables. Is the proposed alternative really a game which only 5% of the players can complete? If that's the case, then GW would really be doomed. Tombs of the Hardcore is not a viable expansion. I remember the time when a FoW run took 4h. The build our "leet" team used then would now get us kicked from every group for being noob (even if Prophecies was still the only chapter). Who cares if there is a skill that cuts the completion time down to an hour even for the general public? After all, that's content they paid for and that's fun they are having. You are welcome to shoot your own foot before entering each raid, but don't expect to meet too many players who are on the same page about it.

The same goes for the information policy. Three years of being nailed to an imaginary cross for every delay can do that to a developer, I guess. I remember how open the details about Factions were shared in advance. Like little children proudly presenting a drawing to their parents did the senior staff spill most the guts about Factions in advance to interviewers and podcasters. They even did an open beta which showed off large portions of the game. Boy did they get burned for that by the community. Until today, Factions has not recovered from the hate this open information policy caused. It is still considered the worst expansion, although all current major points of hate towards the game originate from NF or EotN. You might hate grinding, but what you really hate are people having something that you don't. That's called envy. To measure the hate towards grind type /favor in the game. To measure your envy towards other players look at your own suggestions. 99% of the times they are optimized to make your gaming style the measuring stick for all players. How sweet.

Now this is something I sign! Once again a great post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorgy

"....The problem is when they put through changes that none of us want, and don't explain why. Time and time again players like Ensign have posted up VERY large and popular threads on the exact changes that should be put through, and time and time again Anet put through completely different changes, that don't help anyone at all. We just want to know WHY they put through their changes, rather than the ones the community want, as a starting point..."

If you mean GWGURU community...it includes 0.001% of the whole players base.....

http://eu.guildwars.com/press/article/jeffgc2007/

"...Pay close attention to complexity creep. Don’t assume that most of your players are reading your website and consuming information about your game. Most of your players will never read your website, never visit fansites, and never participate in forum discussions. We are often immersed in the community forums and rants and raves posted to game fansites, and it is easy to lose perspective about the knowledge level of most of our players. Players who participate in fansites and send six-page emails to your community team are experts at your game – they probably know more about it than you do – so it’s important to realize that they do not represent the average player. The vast majority of your players are not digging into every detail of every spell or creating lists of animations so that they can react when they see the basilisk twitch its nose. They want to play, not study, so take care to create a game that allows them to do so..."

Thanks for that quote. That is what everyone on here has to realize: you are a minority of the GW playerbase. And the people having problems with Ursan or the new ER are a minority of that minority.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

12 Jun 2008 at 08:55 - 310

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

PvP and PvE have essentially grown into two different games branded with the same franchise name. While PvE has introduced ways of making the game accessible, PvP remains a highly frustrating juggernaut. One might say that this will make winning to be more rewarding, but I know some people who do not play games for reasons of self-punishment, rather have a more laid back approach towards their free time and do not need competitive self-affirmation. Hence PvE and PvP became two different games. The alleged superior adaptability and skill of the PvP players is, however, very limited when it comes to accepting new game modes besides Team Deathmatch ganking. "Omg, we have to capture strategic locations, wtfbbq, this ain't PvP qq."

I also remember a flash flood of threads claiming that Nightfall was too hard. Big surprise, one year later it is too easy. Could it be that people actually get better? But make no mistake, nerfing Ursan will not bring back an elusive definition of skill based on failing at playing the game. It will only lead to the second dirtiest way of farming gold to be exclusively used. Because that is what Ursan boils down to. It's a gold farming skill used at areas of high revenue. It is an illusion to think that if Ursan did not exist, all of you would find a good Pugging group to raid the UW. No, the game would take a step back to two-man farming or groups of three smiting their way. That's not an improvement, that's another layer of the same thing and you would still not find a group. You would still be poor and you would still be frustrated with drops.

Inside well organized guilds Ursan is not annoying at all. It's a fun addition to the game. Remember when you asked for mounts to ride on that do extra heavy damage? Remember when Izzy shrugged that off? Now Ursan basically does what people always expected of riding a fiery dragon through town and suddenly it is wrong? The only thing Ursan hurts are the feeling of those that lived in the dreamland of exclusivity and representative vanity. But no, you are not the only ones in the world to own equipment X or have a few titles. And yes, those titles are dirt cheap even without Ursan, IF YOU HAVE FRIENDS! Each time Arenanet makes a step to keep the game playable, some players with very elitist attitudes ask for those measures to be removed and the game to be turned into an exercise of self-mutilation which only the forum masters can suffer though. But that's not gaming, that is the reason why Fury failed, that's the reason why many other games failed. Being too hardcore can be a bad thing.

So stop complaining the game is too easy and recognize the truth: dying at Thunderhead Keep were not the good old times of balance, it was your epic fail at playing the game. Even if Ursan forces players down the road where the build itself is no longer the issue, they still can screw up at every corner and they still pump themselves up with consumables. Is the proposed alternative really a game which only 5% of the players can complete? If that's the case, then GW would really be doomed. Tombs of the Hardcore is not a viable expansion. I remember the time when a FoW run took 4h. The build our "leet" team used then would now get us kicked from every group for being noob (even if Prophecies was still the only chapter). Who cares if there is a skill that cuts the completion time down to an hour even for the general public? After all, that's content they paid for and that's fun they are having. You are welcome to shoot your own foot before entering each raid, but don't expect to meet too many players who are on the same page about it.

The same goes for the information policy. Three years of being nailed to an imaginary cross for every delay can do that to a developer, I guess. I remember how open the details about Factions were shared in advance. Like little children proudly presenting a drawing to their parents did the senior staff spill most the guts about Factions in advance to interviewers and podcasters. They even did an open beta which showed off large portions of the game. Boy did they get burned for that by the community. Until today, Factions has not recovered from the hate this open information policy caused. It is still considered the worst expansion, although all current major points of hate towards the game originate from NF or EotN. You might hate grinding, but what you really hate are people having something that you don't. That's called envy. To measure the hate towards grind type /favor in the game. To measure your envy towards other players look at your own suggestions. 99% of the times they are optimized to make your gaming style the measuring stick for all players. How sweet.

Best post of the entire thread.

I sometimes wonder how some members here fit any game time, not just for GW, in between their complaining about every design choice. If I love a product and a manufacturer no longer provides it, I'll move to the next best option. I certainly wouldn't do what could easily be seen as crying outside their window. Most of the negative outlooks on these forums are a minority, and justly should be treated as such by the developers. Know why there's such a resounding demand for nerfing? Because the people that don't want it are too busy playing the game to defend their play choice on a forum of elitists all day.

trialist

Core Guru

Join Date: Feb 2005

12 Jun 2008 at 09:02 - 311

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

I think the BEST things Anet has done for Guild wars is:

PVE Skills
Heroes
Consumables

and finally the separation of PVE from PVP, that should have been separate from day one.

I am disabled, and the availability of Consumables, PVE skills etc has helped my enjoyment of the game drastically. If it was not for these things, I would have left guild wars long ago. I understand that some people may possess skill and are a bit more mobile than I am, so those people can easily breeze through areas of the game that stop my progress dead in my tracks. I can't tell you how many times I have been so frustrated with a mission or a quest that I just wanted to quit GW forever and not look back. I can honestly say that without certain PVE skills and consumables, Guild Wars would be unplayable and therefore un-enjoyable for me. I believe that Anet created these things for handicapped players like myself, as well as players that simply may lack the ability to create a viable build in areas where there are level 28-30 mobs with almost unlimited energy and health with monster skills that are far more overpowered than the PVE skills that we have at our disposal.
That is why they need to be in the game. Not all of us are gods or elitists at Guild Wars, I just wish more people would try and remember that.

You do realize you just described the symptoms of the real problem and anet’s response being to solve the symptoms, not the root of the problem right? Ursan is merely a symptom of the root of the problem. The real problem is that Anet has no idea how to code an AI that is actually able to challenge a human being.

Instead anet goes the easy way out, that of increased mob levels and big wtf damage numbers, or instant AI spike along with imbalanced monster only skills. After going so far in that direction, they decided to "help out" the players by adding ursan and other pve skills to even things out, which really only serves to highlight the root of the problem, GW doesn't really have any competent AI.

Until anet designs pve with AI being a major factor and not using big numbers for the monsters to cover up their lack of intelligence, pve will never really be a challenge and will always be flawed and player skill will never really be a big factor. Fix a problem at its root and not its symptoms, something anet really needs to do, they seem to keep twitching the symptoms and missing too with that. Sigh.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 09:05 - 312

No one RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing cares about minoritys or majoritys. You say it as if it somehow invalidates the OP, yet it doesn't. Anet doesn't have to cater to anyone, because time and time again articles have been linked which show they've had 3/4 million sales before the stuff which reallly badly ruined their game and went against the standard design went live.

They can basically do whatever the hell they wanted and still have people, the problem is is they did listen to a very small minority.....of a minority. That of the people who want everything handed to them, which isn't good for the game. If you don't have the time for something...find time or don't. That was part of what made Guild Wars great originally, is once you got through the missions, if you couldn't do something you weren't really missing out.

You don't have to do DoA, because what does it give you? A bunch of different skins (that have the same stats as your shit you already have, ie: no benefit), a possible minipet (ie: no benefit), and XP (whoah can't get that anywhere else.)

There is literally 0 reason to do anything beyond the missions for a real tangible reward. The process to getting the reward is fun, but those can take time, and that should be respected, not lessened.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

12 Jun 2008 at 09:09 - 313

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

No one RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing cares about minoritys or majoritys.

I'd say Anet does.

Quote:

They can basically do whatever the hell they wanted and still have people, the problem is is they did listen to a very small minority.....of a minority.

You're basing that off...?

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

12 Jun 2008 at 09:18 - 314

I'd like to try to propagate some mutual understanding between different groups of people here.

Let's say that you have studied hard to graduate from a university and feel some pride over your achievement when you finally get your diploma. The next day, the university management decides that their challenging curriculum is too much for most students and starts to hand out diplomas to anybody who can write their name without too many mistakes. You are furious, since that decision changes your previously valuable diploma into toilet paper. This is a case where the goal is the primary reason to do something.

Now let's say that you go fishing. You get some quality time of your own, freedom to do things at your own pace and a chance to brush your skills. Your friend points out that if you want fish, there's plenty in the local mall and you're spared of walking to the lake, mosquito bites and an entire day wasted on something that you could acquire in five minutes. Your friend completely misses the point because in this case the goal is just coincidental and the process of doing something is its own reward.

Some people see the gameplay as primarily a goal-oriented activity. You are supposed to hone your skills and get rewards accordingly. ANet's revisions of the game may feel like a slap on the face to players who are skilled and goal-oriented, and their irateness is understandable in this light. Unskilled and goal-oriented people, on the other hand, will be delighted to get the rewards without doing the work for it.

Other people see the gameplay as primarily a process-oriented activity. There isn't any imperative to get more skilled or anything, the game is good as long as it is fun, and the requirements for having fun differ from those of goal-oriented people. These players are largely indifferent to the issue of in-game reward/effort because for them the reward comes from doing something.

Goal-oriented skilled people should see the difference between goal-oriented unskilled people and process-oriented people and not treat both with the same amount of contempt. Process-oriented people should understand that goal-oriented people are not spoiled crybabies - the game is getting completely trashed for them.

Yang Whirlwind

~ Retired ~

Join Date: Nov 2005

Copenhagen, Denmark (GMT +1)

E/

12 Jun 2008 at 09:37 - 315

Dear Regina

By making the Ursans Blessing skill so overpowered and mind numbing easy to use you have opened Pandora's Box. You have created a situation for yourself in which it will be impossible to please everyone, as all the threads for and against the skill in it's present form clearly states.
You can either leave it as is or nerf it. If you do the first, every skillful challenge seeking member of the community will be disgruntled. If you nerf it, every one presently steam rolling every elite area with it will be outraged.

Those are your choices, and sadly I have a very strong inkling that you will choose the solution that generates the most profit and the least work: leaving the skill as is and the game broken.

I just hope you learn from the mistakes Avarre so eloquently outlined and endeavor not to make the same ones in GWII.

Angelic Upstart

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

South Coast UK

[SBS] [RETIRED]

W/E

12 Jun 2008 at 09:39 - 316

Probably one of the best posts i have seen that outlines what i have felt since EotN came out.

It for me epitomises all of the reasons, i had for leaving.
This should be stickied and i hope someone from Anet gets to read this, and not just a toothless CR officer.

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

12 Jun 2008 at 09:40 - 317

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I'd like to try to propagate some mutual understanding between different groups of people here.

Let's say that you have studied hard to graduate from a university and feel some pride over your achievement when you finally get your diploma. The next day, the university management decides that their challenging curriculum is too much for most students and starts to hand out diplomas to anybody who can write their name without too many mistakes. You are furious, since that decision changes your previously valuable diploma into toilet paper. This is a case where the goal is the primary reason to do something.

Now let's say that you go fishing. You get some quality time of your own, freedom to do things at your own pace and a chance to brush your skills. Your friend points out that if you want fish, there's plenty in the local mall and you're spared of walking to the lake, mosquito bites and an entire day wasted on something that you could acquire in five minutes. Your friend completely misses the point because in this case the goal is just coincidental and the process of doing something is its own reward.

Some people see the gameplay as primarily a goal-oriented activity. You are supposed to hone your skills and get rewards accordingly. ANet's revisions of the game may feel like a slap on the face to players who are skilled and goal-oriented, and their irateness is understandable in this light. Unskilled and goal-oriented people, on the other hand, will be delighted to get the rewards without doing the work for it.

Other people see the gameplay as primarily a process-oriented activity. There isn't any imperative to get more skilled or anything, the game is good as long as it is fun, and the requirements for having fun differ from those of goal-oriented people. These players are largely indifferent to the issue of in-game reward/effort because for them the reward comes from doing something.

Goal-oriented skilled people should see the difference between goal-oriented unskilled people and process-oriented people and not treat both with the same amount of contempt. Process-oriented people should understand that goal-oriented people are not spoiled crybabies - the game is getting completely trashed for them.

ah but thats just it,

Its a GAME and its purpose is to amuse. There is nothing stopping these "goal-oriented" people from attaining their goals is there?
Whats more the vast majority of these G.O players are self proclaimed pvpers no? whats the problem then, they can just pvp and screw pve (which is what they tell pve players day in day out).

It seems that all they want is to force people to play like ....well not even like they do... but like they think people should play.

arguing is impossible with them, when one says that Anet is listening to the majority the fanboys respond that the majority is a bunch of idiots who know nothing.

when one says that its a minority they respond that its a vocal minority that knows nothing.

In the end all their argumentation boils down to: "we know better cause i like played this game for thousands of hours and now i find it boring"

the games not hard enough? GIMP yourself try out different build! dont use 3 necro teams! dont use consumable or PVE skills!...."oh no that would be inefficient why should I".

sheesh.

tmakinen

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Nov 2005

www.mybearfriend.net

Servants of Fortuna [SoF]

E/

12 Jun 2008 at 09:52 - 318

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

Its a GAME and its purpose is to amuse. There is nothing stopping these "goal-oriented" people from attaining their goals is there?

Well, you just failed to see the issue from your opponent's point of view. The thing that is stopping these goal-oriented people from attaining their goals is that the goals have been devalued to null and void by some changes to the game.

Would you pursue a university diploma from an online university who sends you one provided that you send them your name, address and some moolah?

Chrono Re delle Ere

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jul 2006

The Land of Hyrule

[GoE]

W/

12 Jun 2008 at 10:09 - 319

Am I wrong, or Buenabora just answered the feedback question?

There were like thousands of other questions :l

And ofc the end of Buenabora's answer gently asked us to look forward GW2.

I laughed.

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

12 Jun 2008 at 10:15 - 320

There are too many followers in this thread. Someone yells, "witch," and the rest of the villagers are making a bonfire with a stake because they are so easily lead by someone with an ounce of authority.

Use your own brains.