An Open Letter to ANet - Part 2 - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Airstu

Academy Page

Join Date: Jun 2007

BC, eh

Liars Cheats and thieves [liar]

12 Jun 2008 at 10:20 - 321

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety
PvP and PvE have essentially grown into two different games branded with the same franchise name....

Ill sign that post (its been quoted enough, no need to quote it again), ty for phrasing it so well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi
There are too many followers in this thread. Someone yells, "witch," and the rest of the villagers are making a bonfire with a stake because they are so easily lead by someone with an ounce of authority.

Use your own brains.

Well put also. I enjoy my GW experience, I play my way and have fun doing it. The OP and the zealots to the (for lack of a better term) anti-ursan crusade don't speak for me no matter how many times they claim they do.

Symeon

Forge Runner

Join Date: Jul 2005

12 Jun 2008 at 10:22 - 322

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

There are too many followers in this thread. Someone yells, "witch," and the rest of the villagers are making a bonfire with a stake because they are so easily lead by someone with an ounce of authority.

Use your own brains.

Funnily enough, some people use their brains and happen to have similar opinions. Just because a lot of people agree with Avarre doesn't make them all 'followers'. For some people, his post probably sums up their opinion better than they ever could themselves.

arcanemacabre

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Feb 2006

North Kryta Province

Angel Sharks [As]

12 Jun 2008 at 10:35 - 323

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Funnily enough, some people use their brains and happen to have similar opinions. Just because a lot of people agree with Avarre doesn't make them all 'followers'. For some people, his post probably sums up their opinion better than they ever could themselves.

Exactly. While Avarre and I differ on many things, even some relating to the topic (I actually like the PvE/PvP split, just wish it was done a lot differently and with balance/challenge in mind), the overall direction the game is going in is greatly saddening for us both. If the game continues down this current path, it will become a joke. And I don't mean just a joke to 'vets' or this 'elitist minority,' but to a greater majority that extends to other competing games. The very image of Guild Wars will be that of a free online game any mentally handicapped chimpanzee can mash buttons to victory.

As I said before, though, I just don't care enough for it to bother me that much (to the point of making a thread like this), and I actually still enjoy the game from time-to-time as a fun little escape. Still, I suppose if the devs want their game to be only a fun little escape, then they are on the right track.

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

12 Jun 2008 at 10:43 - 324

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I'd like to try to propagate some mutual understanding between different groups of people here.

...

Goal-oriented skilled people should see the difference between goal-oriented unskilled people and process-oriented people and not treat both with the same amount of contempt. Process-oriented people should understand that goal-oriented people are not spoiled crybabies - the game is getting completely trashed for them.

Okay, what about process-oriented people who like process itself to have some meaning. And require/reward skill. I couldn't care less about Goals, i used to have respect for them, but that is about year and half ago. I like to do stuff that requires skill. Hell, i am quite likely to just log off after killing most dangerous mobs in hm area, not caring about that +1 on title. I was content that arenanet didn't really recognize my gameplay: after all, GWs was best in this direction of other similar games. But now it got destroyed?

Because when you peel away all those titles and statues, core gameplay remains. Goals are just things that make you do stuff. And thats what makes or kills game: Good or bad core gameplay. Which in GWs is good or bad skill system.

This is what i don't understand: Gameplay of GWs was good enough to gather impressive following. Without artificial goals of titles back in prophecies days. It served game well over all chapters until expansion Why kill that? Why do U-turn on that?

What is so damn important at making everybody do everything even at cost of joke gameplay?

Whats with all this socialism of achievement? Why does game have to suffer because of that, why is it desirable to begin with?

And as they are enabling "goals" to masses while they kill gameplay, why remove grandest goal of all: Become Good Player? Why remove gameplay that supported and propelled people towards this?

Why everything one does in game that earns you some recognition is so .... degenerate?

Mad King Corn

Banned

Join Date: Dec 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 11:00 - 325

Quote:

If I were told in 2004 that GW will change the entire game to please handicapped people a few years later, I wouldn't have bothered with it.

GW did not change to please the handicapped, it changed to meet the demands of its users. Alot of us were sick and tired of PVP nerfs ruining the gamplay for PVE. This was not a small percentage of players, it was a huge number. Take a peek back through the forums and you will see what I mean.
I can't count the times, my builds were nerfed to death in the name of PVP. My Ritualist ruined, My paragon ruined, my Mesmer etc... Soul Reaping nerf , stacking armor nerf. Pets without exploitable corpses etc... This ruined the fun and gameplay for many people, not just us people with handicaps.

Guild Wars in its current state is enjoyable to me as well as a lot of other people. Im sure Anet just needs to look at the daily logs to realize that there are many people still playing the game. We do not wish to have our game butchered so that a few of you elite people can have your way. U have a choice to use the skills or leave them, if they are removed or nerfed, what choice does the rest of us have? GW1 needs to remain as it is, if Anet decides to design GW2 around you elite players, then I hope you enjoy GW2...by yourself!

Supermarkets were not always built with handicapped people in mind either, but these companies do realize that handicapped people are people too and would bring in increased revenue, so most businesses now serve the handicapped, and I an very happy that Anet has chosen to do so.

makosi

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

"Pre-nerf" is incorrect. It's pre-buff.

Requirement Begins With R [notQ]

Me/

12 Jun 2008 at 11:29 - 326

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

Funnily enough, some people use their brains and happen to have similar opinions. Just because a lot of people agree with Avarre doesn't make them all 'followers'. For some people, his post probably sums up their opinion better than they ever could themselves.

That's true, which is why i never said everybody was a follower. I agree with a fair bit of the OP but many people are jumping on the bandwagon wielding pitchforks and torches... hating for the sake of hating.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

12 Jun 2008 at 11:52 - 327

I'm going to give you guys a quote I felt was relevant. This was said by DJWheat, host of Weapon of Choice, in episode 43 which was released shortly after the Nightfall PvP preview weekend. I don't know how many of you listened to WoC, but I think this equally important regarding some of the issues then and now. The discussion here is based largely around how the two new classes and skills turned the PvP weekend into one of the worst gimmick-fests of all time.

PS: I know ANet probably listened to a few of these at least, especially Izzy, but this is for you to check out too if you happen to skim the forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WoC 43

Kestrel: 'If PvE is your main focus, why are you busting out all these new skills and classes, why not just do what WoW does and offer brand new areas, and open up a whole 'nother map, another continent, another set of quests?'

<He talks a bit about how the he feels PvE players are more concerned just with playing through PvE, and you don't need to constantly add new classes and skills to appease them as a playerbase when you can add new content to explore and play through>

DJWheat: '[ANet's] model relies on additional content. That is one of the benefits to being a non-monthly subscriber to Guild Wars, you have the option to purchase content and get it and that is ultimately where the money is made. Unfortunately, and I'm sure they never realized this, and maybe they did, I don't know, when they're creating these games, when they're putting these together, who would have known they had a hit on their hands, and they had an inherent flaw with the way they were going to add content and that is going to decimate the competitive community. Now, I shouldn't say that it's going to decimate it, there's always going to be people that play it, right? There's always going to be people playing the competitive side."

Kestrel: 'Well, the good people are gonna leave'.

DJWheat: You're right, this current generation is going to leave, new folks are going to leave, and the reason why is because in this day and age gamers want a game that is ageless. They want a game that they can... and Counter Strike 1.6 is a great example. That game looks like shit, it's older than my Gramma, and there are still a crapload of people that play it like CRAZY. When Source came out people were like 'Oh Source is going to decimate 1.6 it's got better graphics, its got a better engine,' and what did they prove? That you don't need great graphics, you don't need the most amazing friggin' physics engine that you can see peoples' eyeballs rolling down the stairs the same way they would in real life, you don't need that crap. What you need is good solid gameplay. That's what Prophecies had and that's what is slowly but surely being eaten away by the new content of Guild Wars.'

Kestrel: 'Well, you can't develop skill if you're changing the rules every ten minutes. You're not going to find the best Counter-Strike player if every three months they add two new weapons...."

<Skipping ahead slightly, past talk on the two new classes in Nightfall>

DJWheat: 'It's the same reason why StarCraft... they had their expansion pack, Brood Wars. They're like 'if we add anything else, we're going to completely jack this game.' And they left it as it is. Which is why, still to this day, nobody says 'God it would be great if the Zerg had one more unit.' NO. IT WOULDN'T BE. THE GAME'S ALREADY OK. DON'T CHANGE IT ANYMORE!'

Kestrel: 'The problem... the truth is ANet is just greedy. Instead of being happy with what they've produced, and letting it be popular and grow, and working on another game, and trying to make that popular, the way Blizzard went from StarCraft to WarCraft to whatever, they're saying 'lets make as much off of this one title, the one we managed to make any money off of', they've decided of instead of paying once, and letting it be huge like StarCraft, they've made one game that works and milked it.

Now, I'm not saying these people are masters of the game (although they do, or did, have a lot of experience). But the points they raise are prevalent. ANet's continual changes are destructive to the game as a whole, and they are this way because instead of just adding content to keep people playing, they're changing the gameplay itself every time new content comes out. That is not a good way to develop a game. PvE could be expanded with new zones, PvP could be given balance tweaks and new maps, but warping the gameplay with no clear focus is just ridiculous.

Why did Guild Wars gameplay need changes made to it? Why did the mechanics need changing, when it was already clear the game worked and was popular? This is my issue, I do not understand why you would take a popular, growing game and experiment freely with it rather than making a new game to test new concepts with. It's a disservice to your previous playerbase.

This also shows something else, for those of you who are maybe newer to the issue. The problem of ANet doing things like this isn't new. It's not a PvE skill issue, or an Ursan issue, or even a PvE issue. The PvP game was first on the chopping block of experimentation, and it was going on since the release of Factions itself. If you listen to the entire episode (which isn't expected, hence why I'm drawing quotes), DJWheat talks about how if this is what ANet is doing, and it's clear the game is being driven to absurdity, why are we playing at all? I'll let the large numbers of the older players who left the game speak for themselves.

The Meth

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

R/

12 Jun 2008 at 12:01 - 328

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Anet, stop screwing up your game

I agree with this message.

Lagg

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jun 2005

W/

12 Jun 2008 at 12:01 - 329

It should not have come to this.

At least, his voice will be heard over those of the common people who have been demanding explanations for months.

queen glory

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2007

Norway, Originally dutch.

We Praise The Stifmeister [oYes]

Mo/

12 Jun 2008 at 12:06 - 330

I am also A veteran Player (plated from day 1 to around Feb. '08)
All players from that time (first few months) know where Avarre is talking about, the game in those days is a much diffrent game than that we're playing now, and yes I do think that this is the Dev's fault *pointing at updates, but mostly at NF and EotN*

The points that Avarre gives us are true, ofcourse not everybody can agree, but the veterans know that the game is never going to be the same as it once was.

/signed for this Epic post
* and Avarre, you should think about writhing a book (:

* Votes for Sticky!!

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 12:08 - 331

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

GW did not change to please the handicapped, it changed to meet the demands of its users. Alot of us were sick and tired of PVP nerfs ruining the gamplay for PVE. This was not a small percentage of players, it was a huge number. Take a peek back through the forums and you will see what I mean.

These games get balanced a lot, and PvP balance is inherently more important than PvE balance because PvP involves players, and gives irl prizes. Sooo, I'm going to take a look at what you complained about.

Quote:

I can't count the times, my builds were nerfed to death in the name of PVP.

OK.

Quote:

My Ritualist ruined

uh...when?? I'm pretty sure they gave Rits a really helpful PvE skill, and they still rule. Splinter Weapon pretty much rapes everything.

Quote:

My paragon ruined

Is still the most broken class in the game, even in PvE.

Quote:

my Mesmer

Is still rly good tho Mesmers only kinda suck in PvE because of how the mobs are made.

Quote:

Soul Reaping nerf

Still the best primary attribute in the game.

Quote:

stacking armor nerf

Doesn't matter thanks to [Save Yourselves].

Quote:

Pets without exploitable corpses etc

Who cares.

I'm pretty sure your entirely complaint is your failure to adapt and do what the entire point of the game is, which is to build skill bars and use them. If a skill bar goes away, make a new one.

o wait there's Ursan now so no one has to anyways except Monks. rite.

Quote:

Guild Wars in its current state is enjoyable to me as well as a lot of other people. Im sure Anet just needs to look at the daily logs to realize that there are many people still playing the game. We do not wish to have our game butchered so that a few of you elite people can have your way. U have a choice to use the skills or leave them, if they are removed or nerfed, what choice does the rest of us have? GW1 needs to remain as it is, if Anet decides to design GW2 around you elite players, then I hope you enjoy GW2...by yourself!

Use your skills or leave them, if they are removed or nerfed.

Quote:

Supermarkets were not always built with handicapped people in mind either, but these companies do realize that handicapped people are people too and would bring in increased revenue, so most businesses now serve the handicapped, and I an very happy that Anet has chosen to do so.

I find this pretty offensive, being a semi-handicapped person myself and knowing many handicapped people too (note: supermarkets aren't build for all handicapped people, but I'm assuming you mean paraplegics? I'm not that tho.) How dare you say that supermarkets did that crap just to bring people like me in for more cash.

That's just wrong. Maybe it's because, I dunnno, they were actually decent human beings?

Oh, but that'd be crazy.

EDIT:
QFT with the WoC + Avarre post. It's insanely hard to balance anything when new stuff is added.

We might get there 16 years from now now that they've decided to stop with 1200 skills and 10 classes.

Argentino

Academy Page

Join Date: Mar 2007

Gmt+1

N/

12 Jun 2008 at 12:34 - 332

This open letter represents the thoughts of all veteran players i think, it doesn't speak just for u but for all of us.
I hope Anet reads, double reads and triple reads this, but i'm afraid they will continue the chosen path... but maybe, just maybe they can learn a lesson here.
It does amaze me that they aren't aware of this themselves (anet must have employees who play gw like we do (also veterans)) or are they doin this with a reason ...?

As for me ... after doin everything 3-4 times, it's all getting ... how shall i put this ... a bit boring, after grinding fow/uw/doa for the xth time, after completing all games, even in Hm... what is left to do? I don't want to go to another game, basically i'm waiting for gw2, but that's still a long time away.

/signed!

PowerSurge

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Feb 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 12:55 - 333

/signed

CHARSCHARSCHARSCHARSCHARSCHARSCHARS

Evil Genius

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Australia

Mo/

12 Jun 2008 at 12:57 - 334

/signed

It raises most/all major points well. This should be a must read for GW's PR. There's like 4? PR people, and all of them will be to scared to post and face the truth. Or maybe they just don't do anything. I don't know.

Prove me wrong GW staff.

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

12 Jun 2008 at 13:16 - 335

Quote:

DJWheat: You're right, this current generation is going to leave, new folks are going to leave, and the reason why is because in this day and age gamers want a game that is ageless. They want a game that they can... and Counter Strike 1.6 is a great example. That game looks like shit, it's older than my Gramma, and there are still a crapload of people that play it like CRAZY. When Source came out people were like 'Oh Source is going to decimate 1.6 it's got better graphics, its got a better engine,' and what did they prove? That you don't need great graphics, you don't need the most amazing friggin' physics engine that you can see peoples' eyeballs rolling down the stairs the same way they would in real life, you don't need that crap. What you need is good solid gameplay. That's what Prophecies had and that's what is slowly but surely being eaten away by the new content of Guild Wars.'

It would be a vaild point if GW had a possibililty of being such an ageless game, maybe in pvp it had a high chance, but from pve perspective ... no i don't belive this could ever happen. People strive for a new content and in my opinion giving new campagins,areas and quest wouldnt be enough and i think that new profesions and skills, even these pve skilles from EOTN had not only sold thi snew content but alos made people play gw for longer then they would without it.

My general opinion now :
These days (with my age,work,life issues) i am very fastidious when it comes to games i choose to play. I spend 700 hours now on playing gw, in my meaning even if it will be completly ruined by devs ( and many people think that it happend ) i will never said bad word about this game, if i spend 700 hours playing computer game it has to be exeptionally good or better said a truly fantastic title.

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 13:43 - 336

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

It would be a vaild point if GW had a possibililty of being such an ageless game, maybe in pvp it had a high chance, but from pve perspective ... no i don't belive this could ever happen. People strive for a new content and in my opinion giving new campagins,areas and quest wouldnt be enough and i think that new profesions and skills, even these pve skilles from EOTN had not only sold thi snew content but alos made people play gw for longer then they would without it.

Counterstrike and Starcraft are not known for their "1 player mode".

They are ageless because of their PvP.

Guild Wars had that same exact potential.

Its a completely valid point.

PvE can never be ageless, You will eventually be able to finish it, since theres an endpoint, if you just spend enough time, you will finish it.

antialias02

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

Eastern Iowa

Forsaken Wanderers [FW]

Me/E

12 Jun 2008 at 13:45 - 337

I like the game ANet made, and I'm sure I'll like the game ANet will make. You guys can postulate and pontificate all you want about what ArenaNet "should do," because clearly everyone who plays the game has "the answer to the problem." And only people who frequent forums at all even think there's a problem to be solved.

8 out of 10 of my friends who play Guild Wars could care less about Guru or GWO, and they continue to think that, 3 years later, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the game.

I know, my post is already tl;dr (still nowhere near Avarre's diatribe), but suffice to say that coming on guru and posting, in effect, "GW sucks, try again" is going to solve absolutely nothing, no matter how important you think you are or how long of a post you write.

This entire thread is content that people have been repeating for the past 6 months. There is nothing here that hasn't been beaten to death already, here or in GWO or QQ. ArenaNet knows what you think.

Nice block of text, though. Great for decoration and appearances, and for the community to pat itself on the back and tell itself what a fantastic job it's doing of telling ArenaNet how to do its job.

sixofone

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

P/

12 Jun 2008 at 13:47 - 338

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad King Corn

I can't tell you how many times I have been so frustrated with a mission or a quest that I just wanted to quit GW forever and not look back. I can honestly say that without certain PVE skills and consumables, Guild Wars would be unplayable and therefore un-enjoyable for me. I believe that Anet created these things for handicapped players like myself, as well as players that simply may lack the ability to create a viable build in areas where there are level 28-30 mobs with almost unlimited energy and health with monster skills that are far more overpowered than the PVE skills that we have at our disposal.

You put your finger on exactly where ANet went "wrong": uber-mobs, and "balancing" that with imba skills, and eventually consumables.

The frustration of the player base is like the scene in Monty Python & the Holy Grail where Michael Palin wants the guard to stay and watch his son so he doesn't escape:

"Right - you stay 'ere and make sure 'e doesn't leave."
"So - we go with you?"

Avarre and others have, time and again, suggested, hinted, begged, and outright demanded, that ANet not continue down that path. And every time, ANet did exactly the thing they, and others, were complaining were killing the game.

Had ANet not made lvl28-30 mobs with uber-monster skills, chances are you would not have been quite so frustrated. (A semi-intelligent henchman AI, as well as decent builds, would have helped, too.) Heroes are a god-send due to the horrible builds and AI of the henchmen, granting a better degree of control though by no means a replacement for a thinking human. But, granting us imba PvE skills and consumables to "compensate"? Not good.

It also further made changes to PvP affect PvE, and vice versa. On the other hand, had PvE been as close to PvP as possible - smarter AI, and an even playing field in terms of health & energy - you would have had the same chance as anyone else, regardless of your physical challenges. The PvP vs PvE split would not be as necessary, and PvE would actually have served what (as I understood it when I first started) was to be a "training ground" for PvP.

Personally, I like the Prophecies design of: different builds for different areas. One has to adapt, depending on where you are adventuring. But, back on topic - this is at the heart of what Avarre has grown frustrated with, and why he has uttered one last demand: "Tell me - what teh Hell you were thinking?" GW offered one thing, that set it apart, and then began to go in entirely another direction. They're free to do so, but at least give a straight answer about it. It will appeal to some and not to others. Fine! So be it. Just be honest about it.

antialias02

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2005

Eastern Iowa

Forsaken Wanderers [FW]

Me/E

12 Jun 2008 at 13:49 - 339

Quote:

Originally Posted by sixofone

You put your finger on exactly where ANet went "wrong": uber-mobs, and "balancing" that with imba skills, and eventually consumables.

The frustration of the player base is like the scene in Monty Python & the Holy Grail where Michael Palin wants the guard to stay and watch his son so he doesn't escape:

"Right - you stay 'ere and make sure 'e doesn't leave."
"So - we go with you?"

Avarre and others have, time and again, suggested, hinted, begged, and outright demanded, that ANet not continue down that path. And every time, ANet did exactly the thing they, and others, were complaining were killing the game.

Had ANet not made lvl28-30 mobs with uber-monster skills, chances are you would not have been quite so frustrated. (A semi-intelligent henchman AI, as well as decent builds, would have helped, too.) Heroes are a god-send due to the horrible builds and AI of the henchmen, granting a better degree of control though by no means a replacement for a thinking human. But, granting us imba PvE skills and consumables to "compensate"? Not good.

It also further made changes to PvP affect PvE, and vice versa. On the other hand, had PvE been as close to PvP as possible - smarter AI, and an even playing field in terms of health & energy - you would have had the same chance as anyone else, regardless of your physical challenges. The PvP vs PvE split would not be as necessary, and PvE would actually have served what (as I understood it when I first started) was to be a "training ground" for PvP.

Personally, I like the Prophecies design of: different builds for different areas. One has to adapt, depending on where you are adventuring. But, back on topic - this is at the heart of what Avarre has grown frustrated with, and why he has uttered one last demand: "Tell me - what teh Hell you were thinking?" GW offered one thing, that set it apart, and then began to go in entirely another direction. They're free to do so, but at least give a straight answer about it. It will appeal to some and not to others. Fine! So be it. Just be honest about it.

You do realize there are players who like the very thing you dislike, right? Just saying.

DarkNecrid

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 13:56 - 340

Quote:

PvE can never be ageless, You will eventually be able to finish it, since theres an endpoint, if you just spend enough time, you will finish it.

I wouldn't say that. Games like Super Mario Bros. are played endlessly because they are fun, still a bit of a challenge, and can be timed.

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 13:57 - 341

This just boils down to the two player types

A) Players who care about balance and challenge and skill based gameplay.
B) Players who dont care about balance and challenge or skill based gameplay.

and Anet created a game for the first type, then turned it into a game for the second type as they added new chapters.

Who wouldnt feel betrayed?

edit:
Dark necrid, Mario is ageless because its gameplay, level design and challenge scale is very good.
Same with other games like Tetris.

The same cannot be said about GW PvE.

sixofone

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

P/

12 Jun 2008 at 13:58 - 342

Yeah, I know. Just pointing out the frustration stemming from seeing the opposite things happen from what you expect (or want). ANet can do whatever they want, and it does feel a lot like experimenting - testing things out before GW2. Which is probably a good thing!

But, my experience of this game has changed as they change the direction of it. And as it is going, so, too, is my interest in GW2. I very well may be in the minority, I don't know. I'm not a leet player, just someone who got hooked on creating characters. I can always go back to Oblivion and Morrowind - lol

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 14:03 - 343

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

This just boils down to the two player types

A) Players who care about balance and challenge and skill based gameplay.
B) Players who dont care about balance and challenge or skill based gameplay.

and Anet created a game for the first type, then turned it into a game for the second type as they added new chapters.

Who wouldnt feel betrayed?

edit:
Dark necrid, Mario is ageless because its gameplay, level design and challenge scale is very good.
Same with other games like Tetris.

The same cannot be said about GW PvE.

And the best part about A is that it's what made GW unique. Not so much with B.

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

12 Jun 2008 at 14:06 - 344

Quote:

and PvE would actually have served what (as I understood it when I first started) was to be a "training ground" for PvP.

but it turned out faster that anything about GW that it will never happen and what can be frustrating for some that pve content became if not major then certainly very important selling point for gw franchise. Expectations fail to meet with reality, it happens pretty often.

Ravious

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Servants of Fortuna

N/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 14:22 - 345

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Where Avarre quotes Weapon of Choice.

And on the other hand TF2 is adding new mechanics to the classes. There is no perfect, right way despite the fact that StarCraft is an enshrined god of PvP. There are good ways for sure.... just helping to find the middle here.

I think A.Net has realized that 1000 skills is not the best way. They talked about emergent complexity skills for GW2, and with the fact that Structured PvP is going to have all their skills unlocked and we now have PvP only skills... I think that they are going to go the simpler route instead of the buy new skills route.

Avarre

Bubblegum Patrol

Join Date: Dec 2005

Singapore Armed Forces

12 Jun 2008 at 14:28 - 346

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

And on the other hand TF2 is adding new mechanics to the classes. There is no perfect, right way despite the fact that StarCraft is an enshrined god of PvP. There are good ways for sure.... just helping to find the middle here.

Sure, I'm not saying adding mechanics is a bad thing. I don't play TF2, so I can't make any statements on it, but if you look at StarCraft there were a lot of mechanic changes introduced by BroodWar, many of which are used heavily in progaming today. At some point, you have to consider 'does the game need any new mechanics', and really, Guild Wars was pretty much set out from Prophecies. Every class added since then has been an overlap on the role of something else.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 14:29 - 347

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

And on the other hand TF2 is adding new mechanics to the classes...

Valve's focus for TF2 has always been just for fun, not to be taken seriously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

I think A.Net has realized that 1000 skills is not the best way. They talked about emergent complexity skills for GW2, and with the fact that Structured PvP is going to have all their skills unlocked and we now have PvP only skills... I think that they are going to go the simpler route instead of the buy new skills route.

True that to death. I remember people saying how "perfectly balanced TF2" was (save for the Pyro but leave him out of this! (and Lyra knows who I'm talkin' about ; ) ). The reasoning for that is because there aren't as many variables as in Guild Wars. Is this a bad thing? Well as you can observe in the clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO that is GW PvP, no. The scales can only take so much. I think ANet learned this, and in GW2 they aren't going to fill it up with so many possibilities than they can handle.

lyra_song

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Oct 2005

R/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 14:38 - 348

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravious

And on the other hand TF2 is adding new mechanics to the classes. There is no perfect, right way despite the fact that StarCraft is an enshrined god of PvP. There are good ways for sure.... just helping to find the middle here.

Ya, they added new weapons and achievements.

Its being called World of Team Fortresscraft 2.

Because you have to grind for achievements to get the new weapons, you end up with matches with 200000 medics.

Oh and when the new Pyro thing comes out, guess what, everyone's gonna be a Pyro.

Not exactly the best thing to do.

TF2 is more easily balanced because theres only a few classes, and they have limited weapons and balancing within this is much easier than Guild Wars skills/class synergies and Starcraft's multi unit/tactics.

Quote:

I think A.Net has realized that 1000 skills is not the best way. They talked about emergent complexity skills for GW2, and with the fact that Structured PvP is going to have all their skills unlocked and we now have PvP only skills... I think that they are going to go the simpler route instead of the buy new skills route.

The constant addition of new skills has ALWAYS been a burden to balance.

This is why Magic and other TCGs have "forbidden" and "restricted" cards and rules constantly change. These cards get cycled to make sure that tournaments remain fair, even with additions of new expansion sets that might be exploiting existing cards, or synergize too well.

This is why skills got nerfed and buffed.

sixofone

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2007

P/

12 Jun 2008 at 14:54 - 349

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

The constant addition of new skills has ALWAYS been a burden to balance.

This is why Magic and other TCGs have "forbidden" and "restricted" cards and rules constantly change. These cards get cycled to make sure that tournaments remain fair, even with additions of new expansion sets that might be exploiting existing cards, or synergize too well.

This is why skills got nerfed and buffed.

Add on top of that: whenever a new campaign is designed with the new skills (and extra bells and whistles), mobs were created to be a challenge for that! Which only further exacerbated the PvP/PvE split, and having new skills that completely wanked PvP play... it became a vicious circle. To the point where, now, PvE and PvP are officially split. And some skills have 2 sets of values, and uses. From a design point of view: ugh!

Lopezus

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2007

MDD

D/W

12 Jun 2008 at 15:01 - 350

Quote:

Sure, I'm not saying adding mechanics is a bad thing. I don't play TF2, so I can't make any statements on it, but if you look at StarCraft there were a lot of mechanic changes introduced by BroodWar, many of which are used heavily in progaming today. At some point, you have to consider 'does the game need any new mechanics', and really, Guild Wars was pretty much set out from Prophecies. Every class added since then has been an overlap on the role of something else.

Guild Wars couldn't step into Starcraft shous because it turned out that Gw PvE alone is succes and PvE players strive for a new content. EoTN is just the example: okey maybe pve players didn't ask for owerpowerd skills but wanted something new in skills department for sure, i think that if devs could easily add new profesion(s) exlusivly for PvE, it will be make appearaence in EoTN. Can people be blamed that they want something new with each expansion,chapter or developers that want to give it to their customers ?

Rocky Raccoon

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2007

Massachusetts, USA

Guardians of the Cosmos

R/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 15:30 - 351

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

And this, right here, is the most unreasonable demand in your entire letter, and an indication of a wrongful sense of entitlement. Did you sign the NDA? I did, and even I don't expect to be privy to internal decisions of ANet.

I have to agree here. Some players think because they have played so long they have some sort of entitlement to know reason for all ANET does. Their only real entitlement is to play the game as it is presented to them or not play the game. That is not to say people can't care about the game but we really have no control and have no right to demand change.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 15:38 - 352

Quote:

Originally Posted by Risky Ranger

I have to agree here. Some players think because they have played so long they have some sort of entitlement to know reason for all ANET does. Their only real entitlement is to play the game as it is presented to them or not play the game. That is not to say people can't care about the game but we really have no control and have no right to demand change.

In an online centric and always-changing game like Guild Wars, you have to maintain a good communication with your players. This isn't to say every single one, but just as long as you're provided input. Anarkii gave a good example in his post here.

That said, the reason we'd like to know what ANet is up to is because all of these changes, both PvE and PvP, have hurt things more than helped in the long run.

phan

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2006

phantasmagoria

12 Jun 2008 at 15:45 - 353

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

-Snip-

I'm sorry Regina , but this time you disappoint me .
I normally like your short and hard style of answering but now ; Well you sound like me on my oral exams . I basically say the question 10 times in different ways with short answers in between and the teacher thinks i did great because i answered him fluently without actually giving firm responses .

You didn't really answer any of Avarre's or Nolan's questions .

I know it's hard to please all people with responses but please next time ; skip the intellectual fooling around the questions and give us real answers .

Friendly greets , Alex

Sleeper Service

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Dec 2005

CULT

12 Jun 2008 at 16:13 - 354

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Well, you just failed to see the issue from your opponent's point of view. The thing that is stopping these goal-oriented people from attaining their goals is that the goals have been devalued to null and void by some changes to the game.

Would you pursue a university diploma from an online university who sends you one provided that you send them your name, address and some moolah?

no i can see where these people are coming from just fine. These people have already "achieved" their goals yet want everyone else to "do it the hard way" when...it wasnt hard to begin with.
Gaming is a futile endevour made to entertain not educate.
They feel that their "goal" is now worthless? well maybe their goal was worthless to begin with.

even so, their own goals have not been invalidated, after all they achieved it in their own way. A game is a personal experience a personal adventure. However once i've played it who am i to decide how OTHER people should play it?
So they want to achieve the same goals they/we achieved years ago when everyone was a scrub? we CAN'T. even if we had the exact same skills and environment, unless someone came up and wiped our collective memories we still would find it "easy".

show me these NEW players who hate this "newfangled" fashion of playing the game? Nope. its just "vets". jaded. old. vets. transformed into diehard "hardcore" fanboys and their clique.

much like a book, movie or even music... you use it, enjoy it (or not) and should come out of it entertained, maybe a little wiser, a little changed...but going up to someone and saying "You! when you use this you have to do it like i did! and if you dont then youre not doing it right!" is just wrong.

i mean christ, look at that giant "ether renewal" whine fest thread. nobody used it post nerf, then it gets buffed (because hey anet can do that now) and hot damn look at the resulting storm about how its gonna destroy the game yadda yadda.

Well ive been pugging the past few weeks looking for these so called broken mechanic abusers (something tha most of these people wouldnt touch with a ten foot pole...by their own admission), just waiting for some random EL to stick 11 enchants on me and make me invincible in pve....and nope. not happened. Seen a lot of bad builds, bad players, the occasional bear...but nothing that different from "ye olden days".

People dont PLAY the way these guys play its a little point they all seem to miss.
Dont get me wrong, people could play like that and you would see nothing but imbagons, ursans, 55's, ER.Els and "sabway" teams...but no thats not reality...it might be their "reality" but its not the one most people share.

It does become an issue when you hit the "elite" areas of the game but now we can hope to enter a pug using a variety of overpowered skills rather than just bear.
the problem lies more within the design choices of these elite areas than anything else imo.

you cant force people to play a certain way when theres so many options, many will choose the path of least resistance but...its their choice and it affects other players only as much as they are willing to be affected.

These are not goal oriented people, these are Vanity driven bandwagon fanboys.

Enix

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2005

I am in a transitional period.

GRE

12 Jun 2008 at 16:15 - 355

Very nice post.

I agree wholeheartedly. It seems Anet has given up on skill>time and has implemented grindable superiority in PvE. It saddens me as I am a loyal PvE player (and I spend money - all chapters, two collecters, 3 extra slots, mission pack, GoTY Ed).

I liked the PvE skill split, but it was somewhat underwhelming. I am still waiting for rebuffs to skills that were nurfed 3 years ago (i.e. chain lightning), and AoE buffs to Mesmers (single target degen is silly against a level 30).

Plz Anet - make the game challenging and fun again. :`(

kostolomac

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

Serbia

Me/

12 Jun 2008 at 16:37 - 356

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enix

Plz Anet - make the game challenging and fun again. :`(

You do realize that what you sad can't be more subjective?
@Avarre : Great post , nicely written, but i tend to disagree more than i agree with you so: /notsigned
I agree more with Sleeper Service , when i read those forums , it seems that when i play pve will be full of ursans , exploiters , bad pugs and whatnot. I rarely see ursans other than elite areas (i see more and more non ursan groups btw). Pugs are mostly ok.
Also , your achievement won't be made lesser if someone does it faster/better.

Jetdoc

Hell's Protector

Join Date: Jul 2005

The Eyes of Texas [BEVO]

D/A

12 Jun 2008 at 16:38 - 357

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

the problem lies more within the design choices of these elite areas than anything else imo.

you cant force people to play a certain way when theres so many options, many will choose the path of least resistance but...its their choice and it affects other players only as much as they are willing to be affected.

These are not goal oriented people, these are Vanity driven bandwagon fanboys.

Your post actually had some good insight to it, before that completely ignorant parting shot.

The issue you describe above is the same issue that Avarre (and others) have been describing throughout this thread. Instead of correcting the poor design choices that were made related to "elite" areas and their ridiculous mobs, A-Net instead took the easier way out by overpowering skills and providing consumables.

What A-Net failed to realize (at least I hope they did) is that those overpowered skills and consumables would be used extensively through the non-elite areas, and that this would cause the agnst expressed by many posters in this thread.

Personally, I do not believe that A-Net consciously wanted to create a Staples "Easy Button" for most of PvE. Now that it exists, I believe that your point is completely valid - it's an option that exists and we cannot fault players for using it (and there would be very negative ramifications if it were taken away). It allows for a playstyle that previously did not exist in GW, and it's a style that many of the more "skilled" players (whether veteran or new to the game) have difficulty with.

Although I cannot speak for everyone in this thread, I believe that this design decision (and/or mistake) is the core of what this thread is all about. As I said in an earlier post, I simply would like some sort of confirmation from an A-Net representative as to whether this design decision was intentional or whether it has morphed into something that they did not intend, but it's "too late to take back." Either comment would be a breath of fresh air into the community, IMO.

DreamWind

Forge Runner

Join Date: Oct 2006

E/Mo

12 Jun 2008 at 16:38 - 358

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

I think the void of CR response is due to the overall 'greedy' reasons behind the changes. I, for the life of me, cannot remember who said it, but I truly believe this: Ursan, and all the other imba PvE crap, exists to encourage people to title farm and fill their HoM. This way, very few people will feel 'left out' by the time GW2 comes around, and will actually have more incentive to purchase it. It is a relatively intelligent marketing trap, and admitting to it will do nothing but piss everyone off.

This was actually a very solid post that brings up an interesting point that I'm surprised more people aren't discussing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJWheat

You're right, this current generation is going to leave, new folks are going to leave, and the reason why is because in this day and age gamers want a game that is ageless. They want a game that they can... and Counter Strike 1.6 is a great example. That game looks like shit, it's older than my Gramma, and there are still a crapload of people that play it like CRAZY. When Source came out people were like 'Oh Source is going to decimate 1.6 it's got better graphics, its got a better engine,' and what did they prove? That you don't need great graphics, you don't need the most amazing friggin' physics engine that you can see peoples' eyeballs rolling down the stairs the same way they would in real life, you don't need that crap. What you need is good solid gameplay. That's what Prophecies had and that's what is slowly but surely being eaten away by the new content of Guild Wars.

It's the same reason why StarCraft... they had their expansion pack, Brood Wars. They're like 'if we add anything else, we're going to completely jack this game.' And they left it as it is. Which is why, still to this day, nobody says 'God it would be great if the Zerg had one more unit.' NO. IT WOULDN'T BE. THE GAME'S ALREADY OK. DON'T CHANGE IT ANYMORE!

I listened to this live when it happened and it is as epic now as it was back then. People need to understand that Guild Wars had the potential to be in this category, but all the changes made to the game have killed that potential. I think this is truly the major tragedy of Guild Wars.

Bryant Again

Hall Hero

Join Date: Feb 2006

12 Jun 2008 at 16:41 - 359

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sleeper Service

you cant force people to play a certain way when theres so many options, many will choose the path of least resistance but...its their choice and it affects other players only as much as they are willing to be affected.

The problem? One path becomes more popular than the other. How will this affect my play? I don't care. What I do care about is why they considered appealing to the whiny MMO crowd a good idea, and what ANet's actions in GW1 will indicate of what to expect in GW2. If more of the same, then I'm not looking forward to it.

The fact that in your pugging you've seen very little of all of this "imbalance" is just further proof that these updates and additions don't appease to the majority player but to the "whiny" player - and if that's going to be ANet's target crowd in GW2 then, well, gg.

Yichi

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Sep 2005

Guild Hall, Vent, Guesting, PvE, or the occasional HA match...

Dark Alley [dR]

12 Jun 2008 at 16:44 - 360

Wow so many of you are completely missing the point. The point isn't about who gets titles the fastest, or that OMG you can farm 10 more mobs than I can...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

The issue you describe above is the same issue that Avarre (and others) have been describing throughout this thread. Instead of correcting the poor design choices that were made related to "elite" areas and their ridiculous mobs, A-Net instead took the easier way out by overpowering skills and providing consumables.

This is the point that this entire open letter to anet 1 & 2 are about, which is ANET's design choices and how rather than fixing a problem, they decide to bypass it completely with a whole new problem. Thus reverting their entire game concept in the first place.