This Argument can be skipped if you feel like the whole MM being overpowered is pointless to discuss (you have been forewarned). Thank you Mods for letting me to express my opinion for the last time on this particular topic.
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Originally Posted by upier
Oki I didn't want to bother but ...
1. Monsters do not have inherently "unlimited energy cap".
2. If you feel that SR was "nerfed into the ground" you are simply bad. SR is one of the most overpowered concepts in GW PvE.
Which, like I said - makes you wrong.
And like I said - the fact that monsters run around with super-duper buffed up skills which combined with what C said (and what I was referring to - but I figured I didn't have to say it because it's pretty darn obvious) - that minions will soak up the damage that would be otherwise thrown at your party - that makes minions super duper sweet.
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1. No, you don’t know if monsters do not have unlimited energy cap and maybe I was over exaggerate the issue by stating that they do. In fact, we do know certain monsters have already a health re-gen ability that’s not tied into the skills they are using during combat. However, we don’t know if certain monsters have a higher tier of a energy re-gen ability/pool because we can’t see their energy bar. Nevertheless, certain monsters that have exhaustion spell(s) can keep spamming that same spell (sometimes high-energy cost) for hours on end. This probably means they have some way to counter produce the exhaustion, or have some type of high-end level of energy. For instance, there was a
thread around here that showed that a lightning drake was spamming Mind Shock (exhaustion spell) and Lighting Orb even though they should have no energy left.
The monster AI in Guild Wars is not like the
Ninja Gaiden killer AI, but they do cheat to make up the difference. As I have stated before they are higher levels of normal PC players (level 30 monster vs. level 18 minion), which mean superior health, attribute levels, armor, and even energy. Finally, certain monster skills can slice through minions (e.g.
Spectral Agony to
Impossible Odds), which makes the allied party still vulnerable to attack since these skills recharge pretty fast.
2. Let me say first of all that SR is not completely unusable in it’s current state. In fact, as SR was taking a hit after hit in the nerf department, I promoted the idea that people should take Signet of Lost Souls as a new energy management skill. It still works even today. Second you did not counter the argument again you simply said SR “was overpowered” before the nerf. I can agree with the fact it was overpowered to the state it was in before the first nerf. This makes you wonder why A-net did not touch it until 2 years latter. However you’re talking about it in past tense (using words like “was”) and not it’s current state of ability.
3. Let’s talk about your supposed “wall of death” which you said gives the MM an obvious "god like" ability. True minions do take away damage (initial damage) from the other party members, which makes it effective not "god like." Since it seems you have put minions in the same category of a Warrior/Tank it’s the perfect comparison of what you’re trying present that makes minions so effective.
A one man/woman Tank whether it’s a hero or the PC (because a henchman tank is just silly) can take so much damage because it is meant to do so. Of course a MM cannot steps out into the explore-able area, to which he/she can initially tank or even create a minion(s) out there (not unless there are corpses around). However, the tank can initially go out there and do what it does best: “Tank.” Okay let’s say now we have 10 minions versus the one tank, which is more effective in deducting damage? Well certainly in low-end areas the minion master kind of rules in this situation, but so can the tank given a certain amount of time. However, high-end areas like even in the Ring of Fire Island Chain (DoA, don’t make me laugh) it is not viable to bring a MM.
Now let us look at the minion(s) problem. They can take Holy Damage (doubles damage against undead), suffers from some conditions, takes AoE spells (which minions will not run away from at times), and can be damaged in general from hex spells to melee weapons. They even have skills specifically made for crippling and killing the MM/Minions ability; like Verata's Aura, Verata's Gaze, or even Unnatural Signet. If the MM dies in the heat of battle the minion(s) can turn on it’s allied party members. Finally they have an automatic build up of a 10 health de-gen (not immortal) and they usually have a low level cap at 18 (unless it’s 1 Flesh Golem or consumables to raise the attribute level).
As for the tank, he/she does have to deal with some of the problem I have stated from above, but with many differences. Holy Damage does seem to cut through a tank armor but it does not do double damage to that particular tank. AoE spells can initially hit the tank but the tank has the ability to move out of the way. The tank can take conditions and even hexes, which can cripple it. However, if for example there is a monk standing by, they can take off those problems with certain skills. If the tank dies then it’s dead and does not come back to life to strangle it’s party of allies to death. Finally the tank does not have an automatic de-gen ability (unless he/she is caring a vamp weapon) and can customize itself even though it’s stays at level 20.
Taken from the Official Guild Wars Wiki:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minions
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Originally Posted by Minion A.I.
- Although minions will attack foes in their Danger Zone, they will not attack ones outside this range unless their master attacks a target. Spells will not count as attacks in this regard.
-Minions do not follow target calls.
-Minions do not flee from AoE damage.
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http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tank
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Originally Posted by Warrior/Tank
A Warrior with high armor and defensive stances. The first kind of tank introduced in the game and still one of the most popular in game, the warriors have the benefit of an unconditional strong defense provided by their armor, as well as being the only profession in the game with access to a Rune of Absorption. Their stances can also be hard to remove, as few PvE enemies have stance-removing skills. Like a big block of meat standing in the front line to bear the brunt of the damage, they are often called meat shields. Their weakness, elemental damage, which is usually dealt through spells, is usually countered with spell-counters such as Obsidian Flesh. In high-level areas with appropriate environment (such as The Deep), sometimes several warriors are coordinated to build a wall between enemies and their party.
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Originally Posted by Necro/MM/Tank
A Necromancer with a vast army of minions who specialize in melee attacks. Here the necromancer himself does not tank – rather, he creates a large number of minions that act as meatshields for the party, hopefully being picked as targets by the enemies. This method often is not considered real tanking – while the minions do sometimes draw the enemies' attention and they have the ability to body block enemy melee attackers, they may not be controlled by the necromancer, so many of the hardest parts of tanking are impossible with them.
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(Sarcasm) “OMG the tank is overpowered” (/End Sarcasm). In my personal opinion though you seem to have a “tunnel vision” about all the positive aspect(s) of the MM but none of it’s faults (which makes it look “god like” to you). I will say the MM is effective in it’s current state, but saying it’s “godly” is an overstatement of it’s ability. If a MM had no minion cap or even if it was had the abilities what this
Monster Boss MM can do then I would agree with you. I don’t mean to insult you, but if that’s what you want to believe then so be it.
Anyways I am stopping this pointless argument because I know I can go on forever (I think the Mods know it too). Moreover, I believe that we have de-railed this thread long enough already. However, thank you Mods for letting me get my point across.
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Yeah, there still seems to be some problems with the AI by doing a few things they did not normally do before the update. For instance, Masters does heal his minions but he now lags behind while he does it; so it’s more overly frequent then occasionally now.
