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Originally Posted by sindex
1. No, you don’t know if monsters do not have unlimited energy cap and maybe I was over exaggerate the issue by stating that they do. In fact, we do know certain monsters have already a health re-gen ability that’s not tied into the skills they are using during combat. However, we don’t know if certain monsters have a higher tier of a energy re-gen ability/pool because we can’t see their energy bar. Nevertheless, certain monsters that have exhaustion spell(s) can keep spamming that same spell (sometimes high-energy cost) for hours on end. This probably means they have some way to counter produce the exhaustion, or have some type of high-end level of energy. For instance, there was a thread around here that showed that a lightning drake was spamming Mind Shock (exhaustion spell) and Lighting Orb even though they should have no energy left.
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We KNOW that the monsters don't have unlimited energy.
Also - if I am not mistaken it was Izzy (I am to lazy to find the quote - it was on his wiki site though) who said that monsters have an inherent +1 e-regen bonus so that the fights aren't to easy. I did some testing with the Minos in the desert (which are of the warrior primary) and they had 3 pips of e-regen (Panic+Well Of Weariness caused the minos to stop taking damage from Famine - which means their energy didn't rise and drop like it does if the e-regen isn't completely negated).
You are wrong.
There is no general unlimited energy and there is no unlimited e-regen.
End of discussion.
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Originally Posted by sindex
2. Let me say first of all that SR is not completely unusable in it’s current state. In fact, as SR was taking a hit after hit in the nerf department, I promoted the idea that people should take Signet of Lost Souls as a new energy management skill. It still works even today. Second you did not counter the argument again you simply said SR “was overpowered” before the nerf. I can agree with the fact it was overpowered to the state it was in before the first nerf. This makes you wonder why A-net did not touch it until 2 years latter. However you’re talking about it in past tense (using words like “was”) and not it’s current state of ability.
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PvE still allows e-gains that are similar to the ones that pushed SR to get nerfed.
PvE has PvE only skills.
SR IS insanely overpowered in PvE - but A.Net just doesn't care enough about balance in PvE so it can stay around.
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Originally Posted by sindex
3. Let’s talk about your supposed “wall of death” which you said gives the MM an obvious "god like" ability. True minions do take away damage (initial damage) from the other party members, which makes it effective not "god like." Since it seems you have put minions in the same category of a Warrior/Tank it’s the perfect comparison of what you’re trying present that makes minions so effective.
A one man/woman Tank whether it’s a hero or the PC (because a henchman tank is just silly) can take so much damage because it is meant to do so. Of course a MM cannot steps out into the explore-able area, to which he/she can initially tank or even create a minion(s) out there (not unless there are corpses around). However, the tank can initially go out there and do what it does best: “Tank.” Okay let’s say now we have 10 minions versus the one tank, which is more effective in deducting damage? Well certainly in low-end areas the minion master kind of rules in this situation, but so can the tank given a certain amount of time. However, high-end areas like even in the Ring of Fire Island Chain (DoA, don’t make me laugh) it is not viable to bring a MM. Now let us look at the minion(s) problem. They can take Holy Damage (doubles damage against undead), suffers from some conditions, takes AoE spells (which minions will not run away from at times), and can be damaged in general from hex spells to melee weapons. They even have skills specifically made for crippling and killing the MM/Minions ability; like Verata's Aura, Verata's Gaze, or even Unnatural Signet. If the MM dies in the heat of battle the minion(s) can turn on it’s allied party members. Finally they have an automatic build up of a 10 health de-gen (not immortal) and they usually have a low level cap at 18 (unless it’s 1 Flesh Golem or consumables to raise the attribute level). As for the tank, he/she does have to deal with some of the problem I have stated from above, but with many differences. Holy Damage does seem to cut through a tank armor but it does not do double damage to that particular tank. AoE spells can initially hit the tank but the tank has the ability to move out of the way. The tank can take conditions and even hexes, which can cripple it. However, if for example there is a monk standing by, they can take off those problems with certain skills. If the tank dies then it’s dead and does not come back to life to strangle it’s party of allies to death. Finally the tank does not have an automatic de-gen ability (unless he/she is caring a vamp weapon) and can customize itself even though it’s stays at level 20. Taken from the Official Guild Wars Wiki: http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Minions http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Tank (Sarcasm) “OMG the tank is overpowered” (/End Sarcasm). In my personal opinion though you seem to have a “tunnel vision” about all the positive aspect(s) of the MM but none of it’s faults (which makes it look “god like” to you). I will say the MM is effective in it’s current state, but saying it’s “godly” is an overstatement of it’s ability. If a MM had no minion cap or even if it was had the abilities what this Monster Boss MM can do then I would agree with you. I don’t mean to insult you, but if that’s what you want to believe then so be it. Anyways I am stopping this pointless argument because I know I can go on forever (I think the Mods know it too). Moreover, I believe that we have de-railed this thread long enough already. However, thank you Mods for letting me get my point across. |
Don't get me wrong - the MMs don't work everywhere.
(They do actually work even in DoA though - my guildies and I ran Sabway there and it worked. We were lazy so we just took the easy route.)
The problem is that the places where minions do not work represent probably some 5% of the game.
So what we have is a party member that can double the party size, cause some serious body blocking, combined with silly monster AI that will end up targeting minions and all that can be achieved on a hero with 2 skills.
No need to learn how to gather and hold aggro, no need to worry about dying, no need to worry about other team mates being dumb enough breaking aggro, no need to micro-manage the hero, no need for overpowered PvE skills.
The result achieved with a MM doesn't match the low level of skill needed to play it.
That's why it's so good.
(It's the same thing as running a resto necro. Heroes are as dumb as all the players that aren't able to manage their energy. Give them SR and they succeed where they should have failed.)
Vereta's skills/Unnatural/MM dying/holy damage is just pushing it. It's either bad play or counters that are present to everything and aren't very common. I mean - based on that logic:
1. THE BUILD (!!) Shock War sucks because if it's played by bad players it doesn't work.
2. Ursan isn't completely out there because when you are fighting Kunny you can't reach her.
(The only reason why I bothered replying here instead of sending you a PM is because I am bored of people screaming and yelling about unlimited PvE monster energy. If you want to continue debating this - PM me.)
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So to actually add something to this thread that fits the title:
Played around with the heroes yesterday and they seemed back to their normal stupid pre-update self.
Nice work and thanks for the fixes!
