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Mad H/H behavior after the update?
Koudelka
Shursh
in response to the OP, i did have a problem like that.
yesterday i was grouped with two guildies and Mehnlo. we were doing the quest that is right before you get to Gate of Madness in NF. we were AT LEAST 1.5 aggro bubbles away from the nearest mob. Mehnlo runs toward the mob, casts some healing spell, then aggros it (i believe it was a single monolith). insane, never seen a henchie aggro something so far away - we weren't even engaged in combat at the time, just standing there for a minute or two.
anyway, that was my experience.
yesterday i was grouped with two guildies and Mehnlo. we were doing the quest that is right before you get to Gate of Madness in NF. we were AT LEAST 1.5 aggro bubbles away from the nearest mob. Mehnlo runs toward the mob, casts some healing spell, then aggros it (i believe it was a single monolith). insane, never seen a henchie aggro something so far away - we weren't even engaged in combat at the time, just standing there for a minute or two.
anyway, that was my experience.
Kushiels_Scion
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Kushiels_Scion
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Originally Posted by Koudelka
Ah, I know why that is happening. As you have flagged your heroes out of range, only the defensive ones will come and keep you alive. You'll have to move closer to them before the offensive ones attack. I have noticed this for a long time, I think before the update.
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Scythe O F Glory
Yep my Zhed on guard with a nuking build decided to run almost off my radar and wand people, casting no spells (none disabled)
Draikin
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Originally Posted by Kushiels_Scion
Sorry for the double post but i had to add, the heroes are NOT out of range. They are in exact range to cast spells on the enemy. If healers are close enough while flagged there to heal, the necro is PLENTY close to target the enemies surrounding the tank. I should know, i have done what they are doing in that picture many times with no issues.... BEFORE the AI that is... Now i can't do it anymore. Makes pulling things in certain places next to impossible.
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Kushiels_Scion
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Originally Posted by Draikin
Try setting your casters to aggressive in that case, since that will now approximate the original aggro circle of heroes wielding a staff/wand that were set to "Defend" before the update.
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Not to mention, of course I have tried it. It was really really stupid thing to do. the simple answer if for Anet to correct the mistakes because no PERSON is doing anything wrong.
cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Koudelka
Ah, I know why that is happening. As you have flagged your heroes out of range, only the defensive ones will come and keep you alive. You'll have to move closer to them before the offensive ones attack. I have noticed this for a long time, I think before the update.
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Changing the range of defensive heroes back to what it was is the better solution. It wasn't broken before and the change has caused nothing but problems.
Widowmaker
lol, well the new AI certainly makes DD a whole new challenge, babysitting a group of demented heroes/henchmen that run around like headless chickens certainly is... fun?
No, wait...
Annoying, yes, that's the word I was looking for. Annoying.
Lina especially is doing a sterling job of emulating Kilroy.
No, wait...
Annoying, yes, that's the word I was looking for. Annoying.
Lina especially is doing a sterling job of emulating Kilroy.
Nude Nira
Anet too busy playing TF2.
AOD_EaSyKiLL
No, they are downloading the Warhammer Online Preview Weekend beta
Draikin
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
Changing the range of defensive heroes back to what it was is the better solution. It wasn't broken before and the change has caused nothing but problems.
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cellardweller
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Originally Posted by Draikin
It was broken, in fact the current defensive range of caster heroes is the same range that melee heroes had all along. The old AI caused casters on "Defend" to rush into battle while your melee heroes/henchmen were still standing idle (remember the complaints about monk henchmen rushing into the frontline). The only issue here is that this defensive range may be too defensive for most people since they're not used to working with it, so a possible solution for that is to extend the aggro range of "Defend" for all heroes to something like 1.7 or 1.75 times normal aggro range instead of 1.5. Anything more than that and they'll start acting like Devona and other melee henchmen which currently have double the normal aggro range.
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Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by Draikin
The old AI caused casters on "Defend" to rush into battle while your melee heroes/henchmen were still standing idle (remember the complaints about monk henchmen rushing into the frontline).
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A simple work-around was to remove touch skills and PBAoE spells from caster heroes, but a better solution would have been for ANet to smarten up the AI so casters would run out of melee range after having run in to use touch skills/PBAoE spells.
Artdeux
A nerf to H/H is a buff to PUGS.
Go Anet go!
Go Anet go!
Draikin
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
You've described issues with the melee ai - the caster AI was functioning correctly. If melee ai is broken the solution is fixing them, not to make the caster just as broken.
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Originally Posted by cellardweller
But aggro range wasn't the problem, the problem was how they used touch skills and PBAoE skills.
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enter_the_zone
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Originally Posted by Artdeux
A nerf to H/H is a buff to PUGS.
Go Anet go! |
Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by Draikin
That's a different issue altogether, and you can disable those skills now to prevent them from running in.
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Basically heroes will use the highest-prioritized spell they've got, and will move to whatever distance (within range) they need to use it - but they won't move back to their original location afterwards. In other words, touch skills & PBAoE skills = tanking casters.
Draikin
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
I don't think it's a different issue at all, as heroes will not run to melee distance without such skills (provided they're armed with ranged weapons). Also I do know that Zhed would run in to melee range even when Lava Font was disabled, but when I removed it from his bar completely he stopped. That was however before the latest update, haven't tested since.
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Originally Posted by Update
Heroes with ranged weapons equipped will no longer move into melee range when a point-blank area-of-effect skill is equipped but disabled.
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Numa Pompilius
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Originally Posted by Draikin
It's a different issue because it has nothing to do with aggro range
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(But it's nice to see that they fixed the "will try to use disabled PBAoE skills" bug, even though it doesn't fix the "caster stays and tanks after having used PBAoE skills" problem)
Draikin
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Originally Posted by Numa Pompilius
What a coincidence as I'm saying that the problem with tanking casters has nothing to do with aggro range.
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sixofone
Kind of makes you wonder: do they even bother to test these things out before they go live?
Or do they simply let us be the live beta?
Or do they simply let us be the live beta?
Abedeus
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Originally Posted by sixofone
Kind of makes you wonder: do they even bother to test these things out before they go live?
Or do they simply let us be the live beta? |
Regina Buenaobra
The devs have been keeping an eye on the threads and all your comments and descriptions about overly aggressive Henchmen; they have been testing and evaluating some changes. Depending on the results, those changes may go live in an update this week.
upier
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Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
The devs have been keeping an eye on the threads and all your comments and descriptions about overly aggressive Henchmen; they have been testing and evaluating some changes. Depending on the results, those changes may go live in an update this week.
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Stolen Souls
Well at least we know they're looking at it now. Hopefully they'll be able to recreate/see the issues and fix them.
R.Shayne
I was in Rragar dungeon last night as a 600 / smite and I took dunk setup as a healer to keep Ogden alive. When I was at the ranger boss (Charr Warden) dunk ran away from his flag and passed me up and was almost to the locked door. I had him flagged at the entrance to the room and there was no one ahead of me for him to heal so I have no clue why he ran pass me.
The dungeon was pretty interesting, Dunk couldn’t decide between healing Ogden and healing me so he basically ran back and forth between the two of us.
The dungeon was pretty interesting, Dunk couldn’t decide between healing Ogden and healing me so he basically ran back and forth between the two of us.
Draikin
Good to hear they're looking into the issues, I hope they take into account the problems in Hero Battles as well. While the offensive range on casters was decreased, it's almost as if their defensive range was actually increased, causing healers to overextend more than they used to from their flag. They also seem to abandon the shrines they're supposed to guard when kiting from foes more easily.
Widowmaker
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Originally Posted by R.Shayne
The dungeon was pretty interesting, Dunk couldn’t decide between healing Ogden and healing me so he basically ran back and forth between the two of us.
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Maybe he did that before, I'm not sure, obviously now I'm consciously looking to see what they do.
But either way, I'm guessing he isn't supposed to be doing that.
Abedeus
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| defensive range was actually increased, causing healers to overextend more than they used to from their flag. |
No, wait. She didn't. She was kiting all the time, even if on she was on Guard all the time. I think Guard = More aggressive Avoid with overboosted range?
Rushin Roulette
You guys see this the wrong way. Anet did a great job in improving the H/H behaviour. They studied PUG players and programmed the heroes to act like every other overextendign warrior, leeroyign ele and healing touch monk.
They put the "I" back into AI (on the theory that PUGs are capable of real "I" )
They put the "I" back into AI (on the theory that PUGs are capable of real "I" )
upier
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Originally Posted by Rushin Roulette
You guys see this the wrong way. Anet did a great job in improving the H/H behaviour. They studied PUG players and programmed the heroes to act like every other overextendign warrior, leeroyign ele and healing touch monk.
They put the "I" back into AI (on the theory that PUGs are capable of real "I" ) |
Chthon
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Originally Posted by R.Shayne
I was in Rragar dungeon last night...
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Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
The devs have been keeping an eye on the threads and all your comments and descriptions about overly aggressive Henchmen; they have been testing and evaluating some changes. Depending on the results, those changes may go live in an update this week.
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While they're at it, any possibility of reverting Order of Undeath for PvE? The latest change was not a good one. In fact, it completely ruined what had been an excellent skill for PvE purposes. (I understand that it improved from awful to mediocre for low-end PvP purposes.)
-Makai-
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Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra
The devs have been keeping an eye on the threads and all your comments and descriptions about overly aggressive Henchmen; they have been testing and evaluating some changes. Depending on the results, those changes may go live in an update this week.
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Kook~NBK~
Thanks for fixing Devona, she seems to behaving much more rationally. HOWEVER: Your other changes to MMs and Heroes/hemchmen with support type builds makes me want to cry!
I tested out Olias as MM, and if there were no living enemies nearby, he wouldn't raise minions when corpses were available. HORRIBLE CHANGE!! That's just one symptom of the overall problem, though. It seems that the proximity of ememies determines whether H/H's use skills or not. This is a BAD THING, and here's some proof:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw400.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw401.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw402.jpg
Reverting H/H to the way they were before the update that caused all this ado would have been a much better solution!
I tested out Olias as MM, and if there were no living enemies nearby, he wouldn't raise minions when corpses were available. HORRIBLE CHANGE!! That's just one symptom of the overall problem, though. It seems that the proximity of ememies determines whether H/H's use skills or not. This is a BAD THING, and here's some proof:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw400.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw401.jpg
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw402.jpg
Reverting H/H to the way they were before the update that caused all this ado would have been a much better solution!
MercenaryKnight
Yep I watched my minion master sit there without casting summoning spells. Also if you go to isle of the nameless and stand at the top of the stairs just before the 60al/100al dummies with a hero with a hex removal, they will run 2 aggro bubbles to the master of magic guy who has the hexes/ enchants on him (by the torches) and start/ stop casting hex removal a dozen or so times.
mr_stealth
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Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~
It seems that the proximity of ememies determines whether H/H's use skills or not.
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Can be easily demonstrated with isle test dummies and 2 heroes (1 with res, 1 with sac/suicide). Kill the sac hero near the top of the steps, then slowly walk the other hero towards him. They won't start casting a res untill they are close enough to the dummies, even if that means being only a few feet away from the dead hero.
Kushiels_Scion
Have they been changed for the worse since todays most recent update or have they been fixed?
Draikin
There seems to be an undocumented update that changes the way they use skills that they used to maintain constantly (Divine Boon, Preparations, certain spirits,...). Now, they'll activate them when there are enemies in range. This works great for spirits like Life which they used to spam constantly before, but of course it's far from ideal for MM skills. I'm not sure if this particular change was actually intended to be released or not since it's not mentioned in the updates, in any case it's an interesting idea that still needs to be tweaked so that it's only used for skills that actually benefit from this change.
upier
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Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~
I tested out Olias as MM, and if there were no living enemies nearby, he wouldn't raise minions when corpses were available. HORRIBLE CHANGE!! That's just one symptom of the overall problem, though. It seems that the proximity of ememies determines whether H/H's use skills or not. This is a BAD THING, and here's some proof:
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw400.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw401.jpg http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...kNBK/gw402.jpg Reverting H/H to the way they were before the update that caused all this ado would have been a much better solution! |
I am very vocal that MMs are insanely overpowered - but trashing them by making the AI dumber is a Smiter's Boon approach to it.