fixing PvX discordway

Need more [Signet of Lost Souls]. Also good to be able to strip enchantments.

Other than that, the build is ok for a caster, need to bring [Splinter Weapon] if you are a physical class. Warrior would probably not be able to hold that much energy without caster equipment.

Not to mention that its too minion dependent, eh Daesu. Amirite?

Quote: Originally Posted by Super Igor View Post

Originally Posted by PvX Wiki

[build=;OAhjUwGYoSxMKgVBTODTSTjTXMA]
[build=;OAhkUoG4BGqTMzOgI2dDTpJ1+iB]
[build=;OANUUYD2qXSxMKgVBoB1DBEGNTfA]
The only un-improvement that i notice is the 3 minion skills with 3 heroes, I wouldnt run 3 minion masters unless i was using 6 heroes. Simply because with only 3 heroes you only have 21 skills to build around [discord] and there are better options than the second copy of [animate shambling horror] like what daseau suggested [signet of lost souls] which really should be stapled to each hero IMHO.

Also the lack of [[putrid bile] which is a very nice skill which causes 90 armor ignoring AoE damage when the enemy dies. The more enemies that are hexed with [[putrid bile] when they die, means mobs die a whole lot faster. Simply because armor ignoring AoE damage is probably the sexiest form of damage in the whole game. There is not too much speed increase when used in the easier HM areas, but when you go to places like Urgoz or DoA, mobs die almost twice as fast. Which is awesome in my book. Add that with minion explosions and you have an offense like no other.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

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A/W

11 Feb 2009 at 19:08 - 203

Need more [Signet of Lost Souls]. Also good to be able to strip enchantments.

You dont need [signet of lost souls] with Discordway because when you kill extremely fast, have huge minion wall and [ebon vanguard assain support] there are no energy issues.

(and yes I have actually tested sols bit)

Quote:

Other than that, the build is ok for a caster, need to bring [Splinter Weapon] if you are a physical class. Warrior would probably not be able to hold that much energy without caster equipment. Im not a caster [splinter weapon] would requre you to horribly HORRIBLY rape attribs on N/Rt's which doesnt pay off because only melee you have are minions and they wont score enough hits before target dies.

Quote: Originally Posted by daze

Not to mention that its too minion dependent, eh Daesu. Amirite? How is it minion dependent? o_O I have extra minion animates on separate chars so I wont spend ages waiting for a single MM to raise an army because unlike with Sabway, Discordway kills much faster and just one animate spell cant cope with all incoming corpses efficiently so after you kill the mob there are still unexploited corpses you will need to wait for you single MM to eploit (animate spell recharge is 5 sec minimum + energy cost). IMO running any necroway that cant cope with minion wall efficiently is retarded.

In my version by the time the mob is killed all of corpses are exploited and you can move on right away saving you alot of time not to mention stronger minion wall.

What is more your 6-man setup has 2 shambles and 1 minion too so are you just shittin' as usual or what?

Quote: Then it looks to be less generic than sabway and it is more dependent on minions for energy than sabway.

But it is a slight improvement over its near identical wiki counterpart.

The only un-improvement that i notice is the 3 minion skills with 3 heroes, I wouldnt run 3 minion masters unless i was using 6 heroes. Simply because with only 3 heroes you only have 21 skills to build around and there are better options than the second copy of Signet of Lost Souls like what daseau suggested which really should be stapled to each hero IMHO. Also the lack of Putrid Bile which is a very nice skill which causes 90 armor ignoring AoE damage when the enemy dies. The more enemies that are hexed with Putrid Bile when they die, means mobs die a whole lot faster. Simply because armor ignoring AoE damage is probably the sexiest form of damage in the whole game. There is not too much speed increase when used in the easier HM areas, but when you go to places like Urgoz or DoA, mobs die almost twice as fast. Which is awesome in my book. Add that with minion explosions and you have an offense like no other. To bolded bit 1:

Yes it is! Because that wiki "counterpart" was submitted by me aswell and is nothing more than an older version of D-Way I run now.

While all of you have been shittin' here about nothing related to the problem, you with with your delusions of grendeur and horrible 6-man discord version I would never even touched and Upier who has never vanquished(!) arguing about his prot > heal crap and all the QQ somehow converging on me I just simply went to PvX and changed their D-Way to my liking because I have recieved positive reviews for it, simples!

I must say it was a great improvement to the dreaded version they had at the time and you're right I will update it again to further improved version when I'm not lazy.

To bolded bit 2:
I find no convincing explanation to why run "three MM's" on 6-hero but not 3-hero. I have explained why my setup is effective above and why [signet of lost souls] results in a wasted skill slot, I would much rather be more efficient and faster on the minion wall than having a signet my heroes never use because they are full of energy.

You cant even imagine what I did with my three Discord heroes before coming up with this actually testing even the maddest of ideas so honestly I would much appriciate if you start listening to my suggestions instead constantly making unsopported arguments and misleading comments.

Putrid Bile bit:

Lack? I has Putrid Bile on Bone Minion guy actually. If youre talking about multiple copies then you have rez slots drop fomf and put biles there but honestly I stopped running multiple copies of them because nyou Discord heroes are always locked on same target and it is simply not worth the effort/time spreading Putrid Bile around. You kill efficiently enough with just one.

One note though: it is pretty much a different story with 6-hero D-way as you can afford to spread out more and have much more availible skill slots.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

11 Feb 2009 at 20:56 - 204

I would say its more dependent on fast killing than anything else.

Im not a caster [splinter weapon] would requre you to horribly HORRIBLY rape attribs on N/Rt's which doesnt pay off because only melee you have are minions and they wont score enough hits before target dies. If you are not playing as a caster, then you should really bring [[splinter weapon (pve)]. It helps to kill mobs even faster through armor ignoring AoE attacks than just relying on the single targeting of discord.

Strife17

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jul 2008

Mo/

11 Feb 2009 at 21:17 - 205

what would be good bar for healer caller?

i use
assassins promise
you move like a dwarf
seef of life
aegis
prot spirit
rebirth
pain inverter
and something else

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

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A/W

11 Feb 2009 at 21:36 - 206

Then it looks to be less generic than sabway and it is more dependent on minions for energy than sabway.

You are not going to killing all that fast without energy, in an area with lots of elementals. Sabway would probably perform better there.

If you are not playing as a caster, then you should really bring [[splinter weapon (pve)]. It helps to kill mobs even faster through armor ignoring AoE attacks than just relying on the single targeting of discord. I have explained that no? It rapes the attribute spread on my hero bars there is no way I can fit 10 channeling magic on any of the n/rt without loosing out discord's damage or healing power and requres me to drop waepon of warding which sucks. IMO its not worth it, minions can live (*cough*) well enough without splinter.

If you are a physical which isnt a caller then its a completely different story but you shouldnt really do that in the first place because caller helps alot.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

11 Feb 2009 at 23:22 - 207

I would say its more dependent on fast killing than anything else.

Thats some serious logic fail you have here, every monster corporeal or not triggers soul reaping bonus. You have full energy when ingaging in combat which is more than enough to kill your target after which it is replenished from it dieing. You simply cant push [signet of lost souls] into there, if you can or run out of mana before anything dies then your discord fails coz it doesnt kill fast enoough.

I vanquished those Elemental things in gwen and tyria and had no problem with energy, from what I noticed everything that doesnt leave an exploitable corpse also has low hp/armor so one caller chain + 3x Discord leaves them either dead or at like 1% hp lmao now go fit half a second cast spell into there.

I have explained that no? It rapes the attribute spread on my hero bars there is no way I can fit 10 channeling magic on any of the n/rt without loosing out discord's damage or healing power and requres me to drop waepon of warding which sucks. IMO its not worth it, minions can live (*cough*) well enough without splinter.

If you are a physical which isnt a caller then its a completely different story but you shouldnt really do that in the first place because caller helps alot. This is the other thing sabway and other discordway variants have that yours dont.

Splinter Weapon is godly to physical attackers and you dont need so much healing. With a stronger offensive, I can make do with just 2 healers on my team (including Mhenlo) and still clear faster.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

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12 Feb 2009 at 15:47 - 208

You are not going to killing all that fast without energy, in an area with lots of elementals. Sabway would probably perform better there.

This is the other thing sabway and other discordway variants have that yours dont.

Splinter Weapon is godly to physical attackers and you dont need so much healing. With a stronger offensive, I can make do with just 2 healers on my team (including Mhenlo) and still clear faster. ......youre not listening.

Why should you use Splinter when only physical you have are Minions who wont benefit from it much anyway, heck heroes dont even prioritise it over Discord much when you meet Discord condition with the caller nor I want them to do it. You are contradicting yourself, first you say being too Minion dependent is bad and now youre asking me to become minion dependent with Splinter wtf? Also, if you watch you Discord closely you would notice that at least half the mob is well gone before you minion wall gets into range an starts to exlode also hero splintering almost dead minion which is going to assplode is fun.

So, you asking me now to either destroy my 12 specced resto or even worse lose out another spirit and pwk so when life gets killed I will sit there with no condition removal, weaker partyheal and one more squishy (note pwk armor bonus) for some small damage bonus I dont need, I have enough offense with up to 26 minions, nova, bile and discord for f ucks sake to kill my defense youre much better off with invulnerability to aoe and two 70AL necroes <3

Your comparisson to Sabway also isnt right because you missing the point on how it works. First it killed much slower so your minions actually had something to attack and sols had a point, it relied on minion damage combined with curses primerely so Splinter triggering MoP was godly there alongside SS, minion explosions ect. it could also get away with one spirit because it had WoR which is another condition removal and sab's minion wall is more reliable due to Jagged Bones respawining every from nowhere bleh you couldnt afford to take more resto tbh.

So that. Again, if I run my Discord without a caller as a melee its a different story but I stopped doing that because Discordway performs much beter when you run a caller and rely on using Discord to maximum efficiency.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

12 Feb 2009 at 16:17 - 209

1. Simply relying on SR without minions (since you cant make them) doesn't guarantee that you will not run out of energy.

2. Killing 1 target is typically not going to max out your energy bar. If you have death, curse, and restoration. How many points do you have to pump your SR?

3. SR only triggers 3 times in 15s after the nerf.

Quote:

Why should you use Splinter when only physical you have are Minions who wont benefit from it much anyway, I am comparing this with sabway which doesn't impose any build requirement on the character, unlike your discordway variant. I am not even convinced that yours will kill faster than sabway overloaded with so many heals and the lack of armor ignoring AoE attacks.

In theory, discordway can kill faster but not all discordway variants are better than sabway.

Super Igor

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12 Feb 2009 at 23:34 - 210

27 net energy gain every 15 seconds. Good enough for me when it takes 3 secs to blow up a mob.

Quote:

Discord doesn't care about armor. And sabway still has better energy management period.
Ebon Sin

I am comparing this with sabway which doesn't impose any build requirement on the character, unlike your discordway variant. I am not even convinced that yours will kill faster than sabway overloaded with so many heals and the lack of armor ignoring AoE attacks.

In theory, discordway can kill faster but not all discordway variants are better than sabway. Lol any every Discord build requres a caller because its the fastest way to meet Discord's condition. You're funny.

And what do you mean "lack of AoE armor ignoring attacks" isn't 16 spec [death nova] and [putrid bile enough for you? Oh yes guru mentality of moar of everything, no ty I dont want my heroes spend three hours hexing stuff and throwing [splinter weapon] on Mhenlo instead of Discordin'.

There is no healing overload, it completely proportional to the offensive capabilities of my build. I provided you with fair reasons to why it is effective and you keep shittin' wtf? I would even add another benefit you get from thsi setup, running two restos reduces the load on the main resto so it can discord more often which is great.

Also, screw your theory, Caller + three heroes who only have Discord equipped and nothing else kill faster than Sabway.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

13 Feb 2009 at 03:54 - 211

27 net energy gain every 15 seconds. Good enough for me when it takes 3 secs to blow up a mob.

That is just not going to happen most of the time.

Ebon Sin

Also, screw your theory, Caller + three heroes who only have Discord equipped and nothing else kill faster than Sabway. You are not going to convince anyone just by flaming.

I dont need to dedicate 2 heroes to healing because the monk hench does fine most of the time. And the purpose of Splinter Weapon is to have it on for AoE attacks, while your heroes are discording away at a single target.

I dont understand why you are defending your dual restore hero build to the bitter end when you could have used one of them for even more damage when they are with a physical damage character instead.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

15 Feb 2009 at 04:16 - 212

That is just not going to happen most of the time.

Actually it does happen most of the time

You are not going to convince anyone just by flaming.

Didnt look like flaming to me, dont be butthurt?

Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

I dont need to dedicate 2 heroes to healing because the monk hench does fine most of the time. And the purpose of Splinter Weapon is to have it on for AoE attacks, while your heroes are discording away at a single target.

I dont understand why you are defending your dual restore hero build to the bitter end when you could have used one of them for even more damage when they are with a physical damage character instead. Now i am usually the last person to take Igor's side on things, but his point which he already explained made perfect sense. 2 restore heroes, one with [[life] and the other with [[recovery] is a perfect set up for balancing damage and support. You probably didnt notice that these 2 heroes are not exclusively defensive. In case you didnt notice, they also can bring things like [discord] or [putrid bile] which is armor ignoring and, although conditional, the condition is met 99 times out of 100.

Maybe if Igor gave you a scenario, you would see more clearly. Lets say Master of Whispers has restore build A, and Livia has restore build B. And lets say that Livia starts casting the 2 second discord on an enemy, while at the same time, You are in need of a quick heal spike. If it was just livia, then you would have to wait 3 seconds for livia to finish casting her discord and then to drop her ashes and cast [spirit light]. Good thing master of whispers is available to heal you while Livia is taking an offensive.

[discord][death nova][putrid bile] is all the damaging skills you need on your heroes. ANYTHING else is all optional. If you start throwing in too many other offensive skills, then you start failing because those 3 skills are as spammable as spammable can get.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Ebon Sin

and how does that relate to the discussion anyway? Point was that as Dyou cant use sols while casting something else it leaves you with casting sols after you finish with Discord that means you wont because that thing is dead. That is not entirely true, it is very rare when heroes all cast discord at the same time. usually its a chain thing or 2 cast at once then 1 a second later.
Also when using the 3 hero discord team, the initial discord spike wont normally kill the enemy. Usually it takes me casting [assassins promise][finish him] to clean the map. which is enough time for heroes to use [[signet of lost souls]. I know you mentioned that i dont keep my hero skill bars open while in battle, but i do and i have noticed [[signet of lost souls] being used very regularly.

Quote: In most cases, the hero AI balances it out. On one extreme end, we know that the hero wouldn't try to heal if everyone is already fully healed, this means the only spells she would cast are the offensive spells On the other extreme end, if most members of the party suddenly drop below 50% health, she drops her PwK, and starts healing instead of casting her offensive spells.

Two restore healer heroes are not needed in sabway because Mhenlo already does a decent job. And the more offense you bring, the faster you clear the mob, and the less healing/protection you need. Having Splinter on a caster is not the end of the world since its recharge is only 5s, but the hero AI has a preference to cast it on melee, so bringing melee henchies help.

Originally Posted by Super Igor

Lol any every Discord build requres a caller because its the fastest way to meet Discord's condition. You're funny. This is entirely true. Any argument saying otherwise is born from either ignorance or stubbornness or both.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

16 Feb 2009 at 05:54 - 213

Originally Posted by daze

[discord][death nova][putrid bile] is all the damaging skills you need on your heroes. ANYTHING else is all optional. If you start throwing in too many other offensive skills, then you start failing because those 3 skills are as spammable as spammable can get. I am looking for something with a much higher damage output than just discord, death nova, and putrid, for example splinter weapon, which is also spammable. Discord is ok, but single target damage is too slow. The rest dont even come close to the damage output of splinter weapon.

It is up to him if he prefers 2 restore healer heroes instead but I dont usually need that much healing. I tried 2 restore healer heroes before too, then after I have switched one of them to splinter weapon for my warrior, like in sabway, I never turned back.

I also have no problem using discordway with my melee warrior so I am not sure why you guys keep insisting that I should have a problem. Perhaps my discordway works better for a melee warrior than yours would.

I did try out Igor's discordway on my assassin but I dont like because it kills slower than mine and mine also doesn't need my assassin to change her build to a caster.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

16 Feb 2009 at 11:07 - 214

Ya, i see what you mean.
if you run mele. i suppose a splinter weapon on a hero would be beneficial. I mean Why not? Right?
Id just make sure to keep it disabled to keep SW off of your casters.

You dont always rely on discord to do single target spikes though. as stated earlier, [[putrid bile] and [[death nova] dish out tons of massive Armor ignoring AoE damage.

And the reason i can see that having only one restore necro on a sabway team would be good, is because that hero is strictly heals. no offense.

But if a hero has to switch between offense and defense like in discordway, then it would be more beneficial to add another hero with the defense skills just to increase the chance of getting heals when you need them.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

16 Feb 2009 at 16:22 - 215

And the reason i can see that having only one restore necro on a sabway team would be good, is because that hero is strictly heals. no offense.

But if a hero has to switch between offense and defense like in discordway, then it would be more beneficial to add another hero with the defense skills just to increase the chance of getting heals when you need them.

Lets say Master of Whispers has restore build A, and Livia has restore build B. And lets say that Livia starts casting the 2 second discord on an enemy, while at the same time, You are in need of a quick heal spike. If it was just livia, then you would have to wait 3 seconds for livia to finish casting her discord and then to drop her ashes and cast Spirit Light. Good thing master of whispers is available to heal you while Livia is taking an offensive. If MoW and Livia has the exact same AI then if they are presented with the same situation they would behave in the exact same way, all other things being equal (same skill bar, etc.). This mean if one of them decides to heal, chances are the other would probably be doing the same thing. This means both Livia and MoW can drop their PwK at the same time and you can have a case of over healing. Besides, discord is a 1s cast, not 3s.

Putrid Bile and Death Nova are nice. But I can bring both of them and still have my Splinter Weapon too. I never have a problem with more damage.

Super Igor

Banned

Join Date: Mar 2008

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16 Feb 2009 at 21:09 - 216

I am looking for something with a much higher damage output than just discord, death nova, and putrid, for example splinter weapon, which is also spammable. Discord is ok, but single target damage is too slow. The rest dont even come close to the damage output of splinter weapon.

You must be kidding me....

Quote:

It is up to him if he prefers 2 restore healer heroes instead but I dont usually need that much healing. I tried 2 restore healer heroes before too, then after I have switched one of them to splinter weapon for my warrior, like in sabway, I never turned back.

Quote:

I also have no problem using discordway with my melee warrior so I am not sure why you guys keep insisting that I should have a problem. Perhaps my discordway works better for a melee warrior than yours would.

I did try out Igor's discordway on my assassin but I dont like because it kills slower than mine and mine also doesn't need my assassin to change her build to a caster. Sure! Everything Igor runs would outomatically be worse than what you run but tbh after

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

27 net energy gain every 15 seconds. Good enough for me when it takes 3 secs to blow up a mob. That is just not going to happen most of the time.

I doubt that.

My whole point about [splinter weapon] you just didnt want to understand was that when you are not using a physical based build yourself it is no longer worth it and whith Discordway you never play a physical character because nothing can apply Discord's condition faster (3/4 sec) and also provide you with an unconditional q-knock, extra armor ignoring damage and instant dw+bleeding.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

16 Feb 2009 at 23:18 - 217

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor View Post

You must be kidding me....

I kid you not.

Splinter Weapon can potentially deal more damage than discord. Would you like to see the math to prove this?

Quote:

because nothing can apply Discord's condition faster (3/4 sec) and also provide you with an unconditional q-knock, extra armor ignoring damage and instant dw+bleeding. All nice and fun but instead of AP I can use asuran scan, and as long as I have ways of applying a condition, I am still set for discord plus splinter weapon for AoE damage.

Super Igor

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17 Feb 2009 at 01:42 - 218

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

I kid you not.

Splinter Weapon can potentially deal more damage than discord. Would you like to see the math to prove this?

No, I prefer to see things on practice. Anyway your math is trash you dont take variables into account like attack speed, foes moving, your target dies faster than other foes so you trigger splinter on three foes 2 time max ect.

Quote:

All nice and fun but instead of AP I can use asuran scan, and as long as I have ways of applying a condition, I am still set for discord plus splinter weapon for AoE damage. lol Asuran Scan doesnt have zero racharge and none of your condition options have 0 recharge, can kd, interrupt, be cast from full range and deal 80 armor ignoring damage all at the same time.

fireflyry

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

New Zealand

A/D

17 Feb 2009 at 04:10 - 219

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

Ya, i see what you mean.
if you run mele. i suppose a splinter weapon on a hero would be beneficial. I mean Why not? Right? If your melee Sabway is vastly superior, unless you like running melee with a generic caller bar or enjoy micro.

It's really that simple imo.

Omgopolis

Academy Page

Join Date: May 2007

17 Feb 2009 at 04:20 - 220

If you're doing a discord necro team you shouldn't have to apply every condition and hex for each target. Enfeebling blood and suffering or meekness should probably be spread amongst several enemies at any time.

I'm used to running with a paragon though, so I didn't need to have my skillbars loaded up with prots and heals that monk henchmen could provide. One copy of prot was kaoli, life, and wow was enough for most vanquishes I think.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

17 Feb 2009 at 05:18 - 221

Originally Posted by Super Igor

lol Asuran Scan doesnt have zero recharge and none of your condition options have 0 recharge, can kd, interrupt, be cast from full range and deal 80 armor ignoring damage all at the same time. I dont think that Daseu is dense enough to claim that using discord on a Mele character can match up to the potential of discord on a caster. He was just saying that Doscordway works with [Asuran scan], which it does. The obvious reasons are obvious. Asuran scan is second best to AP. Thats just a fact. While using Asuran scan and other melee conditions on enemies is perfectly feasible and efficient enough to run discordway, it would take a moron to claim that melee can run it as fast as a caster can.

1. Casters dont have to run up to the enemy and chase it down to apply conditions. Which means you prime the enemy IMMEDIATELY.
2. Casters have a bigger energy management system which allows for more spammage of the best condition causing skills, PvE skills. [you move like a dwarf][finish him]
3. Casters can make better use of [[assassins promise] which is the MOST spammable hex in the game.

Now while it is the purest definition or cookie cutter, It works for most characters in most areas better than most other builds. This is why sabway is favored more by the melee crowd while discordway is symbiotic to casters.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

17 Feb 2009 at 05:42 - 222

17 Feb 2009 at 06:36 - 223

lol Asuran Scan doesnt have zero racharge and none of your condition options have 0 recharge, can kd, interrupt, be cast from full range and deal 80 armor ignoring damage all at the same time. Sure asuran scan doesn't have zero recharge, it has a 5s recharge, 0s cast time, and costing only 5e. Even if it is removed, you are also not screwed, unlike AP.

80 armor ignoring damage is nothing, Splinter Weapon can potentially deal up to 420 AoE armor ignoring damage per cast at level 10 for only 5e, and 5s recharge.

Besides, if you look at many of the discordway builds offered by posters here, many of them DO support physical damage characters and splinter weapon:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10321473

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0315920&page=3

Are you saying we are all wrong and only you are right?

I dont think any of you are dense enough to claim that a support caster character with those skills can out damage a buffed up physical character do you? Otherwise we can settle this once and for all at the Master of Damage.

Without Splinter Weapon and needing to force physical characters to play like a caster, I wonder how you can claim that your discordway kills faster than sabway.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

I dont think any of you are dense enough to claim that a support caster character with those skills can out damage a buffed up physical character do you? Otherwise we can settle this once and for all at the Master of Damage. Master of damage would not give an accurate reflection as to the efficiency of real-time battle. It doesnt take in to account target priority or enemy kiting.

Dont think that im saying that Casters now put out more DPS than Melee, because im not. If you took out the 600hp armor ignoring spikes with the multiple Armor ignoring 100hp AoE explosions, then melee would be able to show off by doing what they do best, DPS.

Without Splinter Weapon and needing to force physical characters to play like a caster, I wonder how you can claim that your discordway kills faster than sabway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daze

1. Casters dont have to run up to the enemy and chase it down to apply conditions. Which means you prime the enemy IMMEDIATELY. When i play discordway with my roommate, he runs melee and i run AP caller. 7 times out of 10 i kill the enemy before he has a chance to run up to the enemy and hit it once with his scythe. Which means Casters are faster than melee in discordway. If im constantly erasing enemies before my melee partner even has a chance to get in a single strike, then i think it is safe to say that im faster.

Please keep in mind that im killing enemies faster than it takes him to even catch the enemy, let alone killing faster than it takes him to get off a few attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

17 Feb 2009 at 07:08 - 224

Yes it is! Because that wiki "counterpart" was submitted by me aswell and is nothing more than an older version of D-Way I run now. If even many years old sabway can beat that, then why even have this? It obviously requires change but despite this thread the authors seem to be very resistant to enabling this build for physical characters despite the fact that they "claim" to support physical characters.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Discord_Spam

The first 5 skills on that bar alone already cost a total of 40e. Good luck getting the W/A warrior to go with that. And with the recommended skill, [[counterattack]? And please dont get me started on the other warrior recommended skill, [[signet of stamina] to go with it.

When i play discordway with my roommate, he runs melee and i run AP caller. 7 times out of 10 i kill the enemy before he has a chance to run up to the enemy and hit it once with his scythe. Which means Casters are faster than melee in discordway. If im constantly erasing enemies before my melee partner even has a chance to get in a single strike, then i think it is safe to say that im faster.

Asuran Scan is not melee range either.

Quote:

Please keep in mind that im killing enemies faster than it takes him to even catch the enemy, let alone killing faster than it takes him to get off a few attack skills. Be thankful that your friend is keeping the enemies at bay while you keep casting to support him from behind, all the time remembering that he is the main damage dealer.

I have played both a caster (even one with the AP+PvE skills build), and a scythe assassin and the verdict is, the scythe assassin kills so much faster than the caster there is just no comparison. If I am not that confident that my buffed-up assassin kills faster, I wouldn't be challenging anyone.

Quote:

Master of damage would not give an accurate reflection as to the efficiency of real-time battle. It doesnt take in to account target priority or enemy kiting. It goes to show the difference is damage is so great, that the choice is obvious even in a typical PvE setting. In fact, I wouldn't even be surprised if my assassin kills faster with sabway than your caster does with your discordway.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

17 Feb 2009 at 07:43 - 225

Personally, discordway does not fit my play style. Generally when I play I flag my heroes 1.5 aggro bubble away while I rush in and aggro as much as possible that I estimate I could take. Ex. I routinely take on 10+ afflicted monsters in factions, and if the monster is crap/composed mostly of physicals I usually aggro around 15 at once since enfeebling blood + aegis renders them mostly useless anyways. With sabway the aoe from SS, splinter, death nova, and mark of pain kills the mob far faster than I've been able to with discordway.

Another reason I don't like discordway is that the heroes are slower to react unless I call every single target, and there are always a few casters in the back that get missed by the aoe hex/condition that the heroes will slowly try to apply, forcing me to be completely a hex/condition bot, which is boring as hell. With sabway I can be nearly everything I want and still be extremely effective.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

17 Feb 2009 at 07:57 - 226

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen View Post

That's right. That is how I like to play too.

With aggro like that and Splinter Weapon, you clear the mobs much faster even with sabway than to use Igor's discordway that requires even the physical damage characters to play like casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry View Post

Exactly.

In saying this is'nt a Sab vs Discord thread but one to improve the PvX Discordway build, which is pretty crap by all accounts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super Igor

brigsaz

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2007

Arizona

Mo/

17 Feb 2009 at 14:58 - 227

That's right. That is how I like to play too.

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Discord_Spam

The first 5 skills on that bar alone already cost a total of 40e. Good luck getting the W/A warrior to go with that. And with the recommended skill, [[counterattack]? And please dont get me started on the other warrior recommended skill, [[signet of stamina] to go with it. As a physical character, wouldnt you only need to focus on conditions? This would eliminate any need for the high energy skills. YMLD is pretty much all you need to get discord moving. The heros will apply the hexes.

fireflyry

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Jan 2007

New Zealand

A/D

17 Feb 2009 at 23:58 - 228

The first 5 skills on that bar alone already cost a total of 40e. Good luck getting the W/A warrior to go with that. I agree it's to much for my liking although your assuming it's implementation as well, of course you would adapt the build and play style if your a Warrior.

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]"You Move Like a Dwarf!"[/skill][skill]"Finish Him!"[/skill] are all that's really needed to be effective.

A cover hex is situational imho and [skill]Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support[/skill] is just there if you can afford it as stated:

It obviously requires change but despite this thread the authors seem to be very resistant to enabling this build for physical characters despite the fact that they "claim" to support physical characters.

That's wiki for you.

In saying I personally think the build does "support" physical players, it's just not made specifically for melee, works better with casters, and can obviously be optimized and tweaked if physical classes want to use it.

I don't see them not wanting to post every unsaid variation or possibility as valid criticism.

Wiki builds are often basic core ideas that don't cover all the bases but I don't think we should expect them too.The player shouldn't have to be spoon feed logical adaption of generic builds to suit their individual needs or play style.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Try not to cast Support if you do not have enough energy to do so, you will not recover it fully from AP on some professions It sucks if your going to 12345 spam every time a mob drops but then, especially as a Warrior, your playing badly anyway.

Also don't discount that any physical who uses Discordway extensively would be foolish to stand around in their standard gear, holding an unused weapon, with 20-30 energy if they decide on using a caller build like the example given.

A cheap suit of max armor modded out and a +15 staff easily nets over 40 energy on any class, just switch it out.

Integrate [skill]Blood Ritual[/skill] on one of the heroes if your still struggling and your good to go.

Not overly practical imo but it works.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

18 Feb 2009 at 03:55 - 229

And the moral of this thread is.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by fireflyry View Post

That's wiki for you.

In saying I personally think the build does "support" physical players, it's just not made specifically for melee, works better with casters, and can obviously be optimized and tweaked if physical classes want to use it.

I don't see them wanting to post every unsaid variation or possibility as valid criticism.

Wiki builds are often basic core ideas that don't cover all the bases but I don't think we should expect them too.The player shouldn't have to be spoon feed logical adaption of generic builds to suit their individual needs or play style.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

18 Feb 2009 at 04:14 - 230

I agree it's to much for my liking although your assuming it's implementation as well, of course you would adapt the build and play style if your a Warrior.

[skill]Assassin's Promise[/skill][skill]"You Move Like a Dwarf!"[/skill][skill]"Finish Him!"[/skill] are all that's really needed to be effective.

A cover hex is situational imho and [skill]Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support[/skill] is just there if you can afford it as stated:

It sucks if your going to 12345 spam every time a mob drops but then, especially as a Warrior, your playing badly anyway.

Also don't discount that any physical who uses Discordway extensively would be foolish to stand around in their standard gear, holding an unused weapon, with 20-30 energy if they decide on using a caller build like the example given.

A cheap suit of max armor modded out and a +15 staff easily nets over 40 energy on any class, just switch it out.

Integrate [skill]Blood Ritual[/skill] on one of the heroes if your still struggling and your good to go.

Not overly practical imo but it works. It is just not worth it, even with your changes there are still big issues. Just go with the already more effective build called sabway, kill faster, no fuss, problem solved.

It's wiki, where it will always be political, no wonder sab avoided posting her build there and someone had to post it there for her. Let them suck all they want. This thread serves no purpose.

Originally Posted by fireflyry View Post

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

18 Feb 2009 at 04:28 - 231

This thread serves no purpose.

Agreed, especially with false claims like this.

Quote:

sabway, kill faster, no fuss, problem solved. Sabway offers a bit more survivability and comfort to the most noobish of players. But in no way can it kill faster then a well built Discordway team.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

18 Feb 2009 at 04:49 - 232

Originally Posted by daze

But in no way can it kill faster then a well built Discordway team. Sure it does, it kills faster than Igor's discordway-for-noobs wiki build. We can continue this back and forth for a few more posts before someone finally gives up and closes it.

There is no point in continuing this since you turned down my in-game damage challenge. Also, even though I proved that sabway has more damage through math, you rejected it outright saying it is not practical. So what is there more to say in this thread, except to go around in circles again.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

18 Feb 2009 at 05:05 - 233

Sure it does, it kills faster than your discordway-for-noobs build. We can continue this back and forth for a few more posts before someone finally gives up and closes it.

I didnt say that sabway was noobish. I said that it is perfect for noobs. meaining it works at its fullest potential while you have GW minimized. Discord you actually have to be calling targets to make it 100%

Quote:

There is no point in continuing this since you turned down my damage challenge. Even though I can prove that sabway has more damage using math, you rejected it outright.
I prefer the real time challenge. FoW run, My discordway, to your sabway. And you are the ONLY person who is claiming that sabway actually kills faster than discordway. So far there is the majority of the GW community saying that discordway kills faster than sabway. Then you have you standing along with a silly troll of a claim that sabway actually stomps through mobs faster.

if you are so sure that sabway kills faster, then try to find someone in here to back up your words. I would wager all my ectos that most people would say the same thing as Igor, Firefly, and Me.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

18 Feb 2009 at 05:09 - 234

I prefer the real time challenge. FoW run, My discordway, to your sabway. And you are the ONLY person who is claiming that sabway actually kills faster than discordway. So far there is the majority of the GW community saying that discordway kills faster than sabway. Then you have you standing along with a silly troll of a claim that sabway actually stomps through mobs faster.

I said sabway kills faster than a poorly designed discordway. And you know henchies cant enter FoW so why bother when comparing with a triple necro build?

Many people actually prefer sabway after looking at that failed discordway build in the wiki. Just in case you dont know which specific build I am referring to:

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Discord_Spam

Not all discordway sucks but this one certainly does. Learn to read the title of this thread before responding.

Quote: Originally Posted by daze

if you are so sure that sabway kills faster, then try to find someone in here to back up your words. I would wager all my ectos that most people would say the same thing as Igor, Firefly, and Me. Except that most of us, including Firefly, thinks that build sucks. Go read the first page of this thread before you answer. Who else is supporting that build except you and the authors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by daze

My discordway, to your sabway. If your discordway is the same as what is on that wiki build, then it sucks too. Why dont you use that exact build and we will compare with sabway.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

18 Feb 2009 at 05:45 - 235

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

I said sabway kills faster than a poorly designed discordway from the wiki. And you know henchies cant enter FoW so why bother comparing with sabway?

Then obviously im speaking of 6 hero sab vs 6 hero discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Many people actually prefer sabway after looking at that failed discordway build in the wiki. Just in case you dont know which specific build I am referring to:

Im aware of that version of discordway, i wouldnt run it exactly how it is posted and i wouldnt expect anybody else to. It is a very weak version of discordway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Except that most of us, including Firefly, thinks that build sucks. Go read the first page of this thread before you answer. Already have read it, and it has been determined since the title of this thread that PvX discordway needs to be fixed. I have never debated the fact that PvX wiki needs to be fixed. And if you actually read earlier in this thread, i even offered some suggestions to fix the sloppy pvx build. But my point remains valid. A proper discord team is faster than a proper sab team.

If your discordway is the same as what is on that wiki build, then it sucks too. Why dont you use that build and we will compare? Once again, read the earlier pages of this thread before you post silly stuff like this. I have provided on multiple pages of this specific thread the precise discord team build that i use. And for the last time, i have never been debating that the PvX wiki build doesnt need to be changed. I already covered that point waaay earlier in this thread.

Daesu

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2008

18 Feb 2009 at 06:00 - 236

Then obviously im speaking of 6 hero sab vs 6 hero discord.

Then you just admitted to going OT. I dont think sab ever posted a 6 hero version of her build, and we are discussing that over the wiki build of course.

Quote:

Im aware of that version of discordway, i wouldnt run it exactly how it is posted and i wouldnt expect anybody else to.

That is what we are talking about isn't it? How to modify and improve on it.

Quote: It is a very weak version of discordway. Isn't that what we have been saying all along?

Quote:

A proper discord team is faster than a proper sab team. Maybe you just have not read my other posts in this forum supporting discordway over sabway.

Quote:

Once again, read the earlier pages of this thread before you post silly stuff like this. I have provided on multiple pages of this specific thread the precise discord team build that i use. And for the last time, i have never been debating that the PvX wiki build doesnt need to be changed. I already covered that point waaay earlier in this thread. Then why did you interject when I was debating with Igor (one of the authors)?

I still think that a good discordway does not need to force the warrior or physical damage character to play like a caster. A good discordway would synergize around the character's build rather than forcing the character into a particular build template/playstyle because each character class has its own strengths and weaknesses.

There are very few build authors that I respect in this forum, like Sab and Shaz, and it so happens all of them recognize the power of splinter weapon in their builds.

People have made splinter weapon discordway work with physical damage characters all along in this forum (e.g. http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10321473), until Igor posted his wiki build recommending warriors to hold staves to use discordway and confusing other's views on what discordway is.

daze

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2008

In my own mind

The Dragon Exchange

18 Feb 2009 at 06:16 - 237

Then why did you interject when I was debating with Igor (one of the authors)? The only thing that i didnt agree with was you saying that melee can call targets as fast as a caster.

Then you just admitted to going OT. I dont think sab ever posted a 6 hero version of her build, and we are discussing that over the wiki build of course.

Not Off topic. Suggesting the PvX implement a 6 hero version of the team is totally on topic. Earlier in this thread i made such a suggestion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

That is what we are talking about isn't it? How to modify and improve on it.

That has already been covered thoroughly in the first 10 pages of this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Isn't that what we have been saying all along? Well, then we are obviously arguing over the same side of an issue.

Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu View Post

Maybe you just have not read my other posts in this forum supporting discordway over sabway. maybe i should

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Quote: If you are worried about discord spam speed, just bind them to key presses and they would be spammed even when using a melee. Binding them to key presses is always faster anyway.

I still think that a good discordway does not need to force the warrior or physical damage character to play like a caster. A good discordway would synergize around the character's build rather than forcing the character into a particular build template/playstyle because each character class has its own strengths and weaknesses. Sure, that is why a good discordway is 6 heros big. That way its not so important that you pack your own bar full of hexes and conditions. 3 hero discord is nice but to make it work well, you really need to be able to mark targets.