skills distributed badly? are you serious?
Yeah, too many minion spells, weak healing, weaken armor on a resto...lolwut...sols, you should be killing fast enough to have enough energy, its health gain is zzzz.
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overkill on minions? o hi my name is barbs and i get placed on targets with the potential of having 19 minions hitting me + two warriors. and guess what, my minions will stay alive longer than yours with the potential of popping more death novas....
Barbs doesnt prove the need to have bone minions and shambling horrors, just an ovekill knowing that you can slot many skills in there. I end up with full 18 minion army that takes advantage of barbs that get replcing rip just fine, why replace rip? Because I play a sin ofcourse.
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no dwaynas sorrow? i used to run with that b4, but i felt it was too ineffective. if i have a partner with me, ill have him slot it, but i dont need it, and again, im a primary monk and im most likely going to use lod.
DS is ossum, especially with high ammount of minions, neglecting it is stupid.
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you dont need hex removal when you have sooo many minions
Yea bacuase minions remove hexes, sure.
19 Nov 2008 at 14:48 - 123
I've been following this thread with great interest, as a dispassionate observer who does not yet have three necros to his name and hopes to learn a thing or two about necro builds from the debate. But, given that the thread has now reached several pages without a proposal that everyone agrees upon, do you really think you can fix PvX? Just asking.
19 Nov 2008 at 16:56 - 124
Well, the only person who actually started to do anything on pvx discord is me.
20 Nov 2008 at 01:14 - 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daesu
With 6 Discords you are already pumped up in the damage department, I would rather work on my defensive capabilities with those skill slots than to waste them on extra DNs. Not having enough damage should be the least your worries with 6 discords. Surviving in a tough area when your minions are all dead would be more useful.
Well, I don't know about you but 1 extra death nova makes enemies drop quicker, which results in a better defense. The best defense is a strong offense. If I can kill even 1 extra monster (generally it's more like 2-4 extra monsters) quicker with 1 extra death nova, then that means there are less monsters able to attack or cast harmful spells. If more than 1 death nova is not your cup of tea don't run it, but in the areas where I have run it it was a lot more effective in providing extra damage and a stronger defense through quicker kills. It did more for my party than a hex remover or a heal would have done in the same spot.
Minions don't remove hexes, but they absorb hexes just like damage. In pve, a minion wall is best at taking aoe hexes and spells away from party members. I would rather have a single minion spell in slot over a single hex remover as long as I can actually use it.
A minion has the potential to prevent/ absorb hundreds of damage and multiple hexes and spells. A hex remover has the potential to remove x amount of super harmful hexes and may have a slight heal. However heroes can't use hex removers worth a damn, so they usually end up spamming it on any hex you receive.
This is all personal preference, so if you share my preference then feel free to use my ideas. If you don't, then don't use them. I don't want to defend my choices any more, I just stated my opinions as to my ways of using the skills and if you don't agree that's fine.
I just want to keep this thread clear of arguments and on track by giving people multiple ways of using their discords.
The best defense is a strong offense.
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I have a friend who says the same thing. I cant seem to remember his name....
Oh yeah his name is LEEEEROOOY JENKINS the mending wammo with [frenzy][healing signet]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight
Minions don't remove hexes, but they absorb hexes just like damage. In pve, a minion wall is best at taking aoe hexes and spells away from party members. I would rather have a single minion spell in slot over a single hex remover as long as I can actually use it.
A minion has the potential to prevent/ absorb hundreds of damage and multiple hexes and spells. A hex remover has the potential to remove x amount of super harmful hexes and may have a slight heal. However heroes can't use hex removers worth a damn, so they usually end up spamming it on any hex you receive.
In my experience, minions do more melee blocking than spell absorbing. Simply because minions don't initiate aggro. You do. The first person that spell casters usually lock on to is whoever catches their attention first. In fact, minions usually don't even move in front of the minion master until after a few seconds. Its a good theory to say that minions absorb the majority of hexes or spells, Or at least it would be a good theory if you didn't have common sense to get in your way.
20 Nov 2008 at 04:31 - 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by daze
I have a friend who says the same thing. I cant seem to remember his name....
Oh yeah his name is LEEEEROOOY JENKINS
In my experience, minions do more melee blocking than spell absorbing. Simply because minions don't initiate aggro. You do. The first person that spell casters usually lock on to is whoever catches their attention first. In fact, minions usually don't even move in front of the minion master until after a few seconds. Its a good theory to say that minions absorb the majority of hexes or spells, Or at least it would be a good theory if you didn't have common sense to get in your way.
Leeroy jenkins remark has nothing to do with that, so thanks for making absolutely no sense and having no effective counter as to why you disagreed with me
If you could instant kill a whole mob you'd never need a healer. The faster you kill the less healing you'll need is generally a true fact. The stronger and quicker the damage, the less damage you'll end up taking.
Your experience with minions getting stuck on melee is because your most likely only running 2-3 minion spells correct? My guess would be 1 bone minions and shambling horror on your bomber (with death nova on a different character) and then 1 shambling horror by itself?
With me, I have 4 different characters with their own minions. That means when melee rushes into range, usually the 4-6 shamblings/jaggeds from my 2 cursers go block them, then the 12-16+ bone minions each aggro seperately which results in casters and melee being death nova'd and attacked. So I guess that's another advantage about having more than 2 characters with minions, they don't all clump up and focus on melee only at least when I ran around vanquishing all the kurzick areas I noticed that they didn't clump up like that.
So, what I wrote worked for me, but if it doesn't work for you when you run less minions and 1 death nova, then please try not to state how it fails or doesn't work because that would be dependant on the build your running and doesn't pertain to using more minions and an extra death nova.
I do understand we initiate aggro, but were also knocking down enemies (with an ap nuker) and resulting in interrupts and summoning vanguard sins (again a generic pve skill for most discordways) which results in another "minion" who's attacking and taking away monsters attention.)
If you truly need hex removers with the exception of very difficult hex areas (such as fow) then I would suggest trying to find another way to keep you alive without relying on dumb hero ai in prioritizing hex removal. Because they are never reliable, unless you plan to micro every single hex remover you bring.
28 Nov 2008 at 12:53 - 130
This is the one I made a few days ago.
[build=OAhjUwGYoSxMVBKgNbTOUbDTVVA] 16 Death, 9 Soul, 10 Rest
[build=OAhkUsG5BFqTMjdaHa2Tux5wUAA] 13 Death, 10 Soul, 10 Rest, 4 Curses
[build=OANDUslfSxMVBHVKgoBBE1DVVA] 16 Death, 10 Soul, 9 Prot
This is the one I made a few days ago.
[build=OAhjUwGYoSxMVBKgNbTOUbDTVVA] 16 Death, 9 Soul, 10 Rest
[build=OAhkUsG5BFqTMjdaHa2Tux5wUAA] 13 Death, 10 Soul, 10 Rest, 4 Curses
[build=OANDUslfSxMVBHVKgoBBE1DVVA] 16 Death, 10 Soul, 9 Prot
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Prettty horrible tbh. Sup rune overkill, no condition removal, no barbs, meekness, no sorrow.
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It really is, dont be bad.
MoP will be cast on a foe that is going to be killed in a matter of seconds before MoP could do any significant harm making it a waste of skill slot with d-way.
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It's there for the same reason as the others, to provide AoE cover hexes that still have some use.
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MoP is not aoe hex.
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[Mark of pain] is there for scattering mobs;
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Why the phuck?
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[weaken armor] is there because I usually have [ebon vanguard assassin support] on my bar
Weaken armor is pointless when you deal armor ignoring damage. Might be useful to raise minion damage but no way to make EVAS hit harder.
On a side note, EVAS is crap.
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[reckless haste] is there to take some pressure off healers.
[shadow of fear]
Aoe hex, fast recharge, reduces dps almost the same, lower energy cost.
See no point taking RH without SS in pve.
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All of it's secondary but it keeps condition/hex removers busy. he already had enfeebling-- which is the only really necessary curse aoe condition dealer imo-- but at 4 spec. Doesn't feel like enough to me.
Well your suggestions are kind of bad for making condition/hex removers busy.
04 Dec 2008 at 03:16 - 135
Actually, Igor, I wouldn't say EVAS is crap but only because with Assassin's Promise, you can recharge it rather quickly and have multiple assassins out (I've had about four out at once as my record). Four Assassins can pile up damage on your non-targetted foes. However, in place of EVAS, there are better PvE skills to use.
Since "You Move Like a Dwarf" is one of the standard skills, that's 1 out of 3. "Finish Him!" is also great to nail down onto the bar as pointed out by other people already. That's 2 out of 3.
My pick would probably remain as Pain Inverter mostly because some bosses (anything with Searing Flames for example) just plain rape you if you don't cast that thing on them. Discordway doesn't kill fast enough to prevent them from hitting your party and grandma with 400 points of damage and then burning. :V
06 Dec 2008 at 21:54 - 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
MoP is not aoe hex.
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Oops- fixed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocketmancer
Actually, Igor, I wouldn't say EVAS is crap but only because with Assassin's Promise, you can recharge it rather quickly and have multiple assassins out (I've had about four out at once as my record). Four Assassins can pile up damage on your non-targetted foes.
what he said. also having multiple sins out makes for a great meat shield.
06 Dec 2008 at 22:03 - 137
Also seconding what Pocketmancer said. EVAS + minions makes for one of the best meat shields. Good for soaking up plenty of damage.
08 Dec 2008 at 07:28 - 138
Here's my variation on sabway...and yes I still call it sabway because despite the fact that the elite's on all the nec hero's is discord the principle of the build is based on effective synergy and the absurd e-management of soul reaping.
[build=OAhkUwG4hGKTMDRMGsDfidXVN5C] 12 Death, 10+2(12) Curses, 8+1(9) Soul Reaping
Shadow of Fear/Meakness for an AoE hex and Parasitic Bond (Which is essentially a useless curse) but has a quick recharge making it easy to spam. Enfeeble Blood is very useful for two obvious reasons, anti-melee as well as it's AoE. Weaken Armor like Parasitic bond isn't really that great but has a fairly quick recharge making it easy to spread conditions around. Finally, rip enchantment for those times you need to remove a key enchantment.
This hero is the one that people can play around with the most; you can throw on whatever curses you like as long as you make sure that you can satisfy the conditions for discord.
[build=OAhjUsGWIPxsMm0cyNMHnV1kLA] 11+1(12) Death, 6+3(9) Soul Reaping, 12 Rest
Basically, the sabway healer with discord added on. I see very little reason to change any skills on this bar as it's pretty good.
[build=OANDUslfOxsqAeAN86CI1jqK] 12+4(16) Death, 9+1(10) Soul Reaping, 9 Protection Prayers
Again, this is basically the sabway minion bomber but with discord as it's elite.
What's good about this build is that you as the leader of the party don't necessarily need to bring along hexes or conditions the heroes will spread hexes and conditions themselves allowing you do run whatever you want. The only real weakness of the build that I see is the lack of hex removal, but like sab I tend to believe most hex's are weak and it's easier to just heal through them. In times where I absolutely want to bring hex removal I generally add it to the curse nec's bar.
08 Dec 2008 at 07:49 - 139
I use defile instead of pbond on my curse nec. But I use weaken armor and enfeebling also. 2 aoe condies ftw. and both are really useful.
I would also say putrid bile is really good on all 3 necs. Those things popping one after another, reminds me almost of edge bombing. It's really good if you're playing a warrior who knows how to pull and tank so they're all balled up nice for you.
Putrid flesh is also really nice for another aoe condy that spreads itself and does good degen damage. To be honest, I replaced botm with putrid bile and ext. with putrid flesh. Foulfeast on my healer necro makes ext kinda dumb. Also, Dwayna's > protspirit/aegis for me, but that's my personal preference. I also put bloodsong on my curse necro for another spirit that does minimal damage, lasts a long time, and drops another condy every mbos cast. It's pretty ok for me.
The only necro that has energy problems for me is the mm. Spamming death nova, discord, and minions all the time really drains him. Plus putrid flesh/bile are 10 energy each and he uses them constantly. Meh.
14 Dec 2008 at 11:07 - 143
I expirienced it running around like crazy after making first hit or two and many other people expirienced that as well as far as I know.
Maybe, it was changed in a recent update but I didnt really check.
Thing I like about EVAS though is that it doesnt shadow step but teleports so you can force it thru walls. x)
Also, some people like upier say that if you give your d-way heroes resto spells they stop discording pretty much....complete BS. Done some testing yesterday and my heroes were spamming discord more often having heals on their bars that they were having prots :P !
15 Dec 2008 at 21:10 - 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
Pretty weak imo.
No dwayna's sorrow, weak attribute spreads, low on hexes, skills destributed badly, overkill on minions, lol, who would ever run two copies of bone minions and shamblings? Weak heal, no protection or hex removal at all, sols that you dont need killing stuff this fast.
I run this:
[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][spirit light][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][recovery][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Rt box][discord][enfeebling blood][shadow of fear][rip enchantment][protective was kaolai][mend body and soul][life][flesh of my flesh][/build]
[build prof=N/Mo box][discord][animate bone minions][putrid bile][death nova][dwayna's sorrow][aegis][protective spirit][cure hex][/build]
-It has never failed me, +24 armor on two of the guys, strong party-wide healing to power through degen and pressure, two restos allow lower restoration spec that means all of these guys have 14 spec discords, dwayna's sorow, hex removal, near immunity to conditions, sufficient prot.
I have been reading this long thread now and I am still not sure what builds actually work. Sounds to me like most of them will and its just user preference.
That said I have some questions about the quoted post:
1) If Discord is the main damage dealing spell and you are relying on your heroes to cast the crap out of it...well how are they casting it if they are busy casting heals and other things to keep the party alive?
2) If you're using Monk henchmen do you need all the heals on your necros? Can you switch the /RT to another secondary or go full necro skills?
Also someone had posted an MM with Foul Feast and Infuse Condition. Some people said this was stupid for hex removal. But would the ability to suck up conditions and then transfer them to minions make the minions expire faster, thus triggering Death Novas? So its really not about hex removal its about making your minions die faster. Am I right on this or just way off base? I'm new to this 3 necro hero thing.
15 Dec 2008 at 21:15 - 145
just mod up ur sabway to run hybrid discord elites. two people, 6 necros, shit dies. If in HM, may loook into a real person being monk if u have any trouble with healing.
15 Dec 2008 at 21:27 - 146
so Discordway is only for 6 hero team?
1) If Discord is the main damage dealing spell and you are relying on your heroes to cast the crap out of it...well how are they casting it if they are busy casting heals and other things to keep the party alive?
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Absolutely no problem with it! I actually noticed that they used discord more often than they did when I packed them with prots and other less spammable spells or just offense. In first case they spam prots in other they just run around...
Maybe its the cause of party staying more healthy thanks to ability to heal alot of damage party wide or bringing an ally to full hp quickly.
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2) If you're using Monk henchmen do you need all the heals on your necros? Can you switch the /RT to another secondary or go full necro skills?
I think you do, at least thats what I noticed. Monk henchmen are retarded! Heal they can give is usually not enough unless you run in some uber easy area and always run out of energy. They will just stand there do nothing when someone is under 50% health and make your discorders panic thats all.
I know there that trend going on guru made by upier and other such people (who in reality never vanquish and hate it) thats monk henchies are enough, but no, in any fairly harder vamnquish area they will suck with their runeless heals, bad build, low energy and health pool, poor AI and fact of being unable to control them.
Quote:
Also someone had posted an MM with Foul Feast and Infuse Condition. Some people said this was stupid for hex removal. But would the ability to suck up conditions and then transfer them to minions make the minions expire faster, thus triggering Death Novas? So its really not about hex removal its about making your minions die faster. Am I right on this or just way off base? I'm new to this 3 necro hero thing.
Kinda, yea but I dont think that its significant in making minions explode faster. That combo is good in condition heavy area when you have place to take it but really mbas works well in most cases to remove conditions from main characters and not that you run in uber condition heavy mobs that often.
Really, the build you quoted is pretty old. I have changed around what i run quite a bit since then (same idea but modified) and actually anded up tweaking my d-way quite a bit inbetween each area because when it works well in one it would suck at other. Example: one setup was pwning jade brotherhood hard but when I took it against gwen's charr it worked terrible.
Also, contrary to lot of people might say take sols, you have lower soul reaping usually and when you are stuck on a mob longer than you should be extra hp and enrgy is very hepful.
22 Dec 2008 at 13:04 - 149
Click
Thats ownage....i think.
crappy Pvx.
22 Dec 2008 at 17:27 - 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Igor
"If you're using Monk henchmen do you need all the heals on your necros? Can you switch the /RT to another secondary or go full necro skills?"
I think you do, at least thats what I noticed. Monk henchmen are retarded! Heal they can give is usually not enough unless you run in some uber easy area and always run out of energy. They will just stand there do nothing when someone is under 50% health and make your discorders panic thats all.
I know there that trend going on guru made by upier and other such people (who in reality never vanquish and hate it) thats monk henchies are enough, but no, in any fairly harder vamnquish area they will suck with their runeless heals, bad build, low energy and health pool, poor AI and fact of being unable to control them.
Well, I'm not one of the upier-such people and think the monk henchies will do most of the time.
I think I've played enough HM to make this statement.
However, you need to adjust your team to support this.
Discordway and Sabway are examples of generic builds that work about everywhere and with any profession for the human player. And even a retard can play and win with them.
This means their defensive power is way too high for a lot of areas or in the hands of experienced players.
But running Sab-/Discordway without the /Rt part would be somewhat foolish, since it relies on the one true weekness of healer AI: energy management.
The team build makes sure the healers have enough energy all the time.
I played Sabway and an altered version of Discord (run it since long before the craze began) and when I observer the teams health and deads it's too defensive.
The tradeoff is whether or not you want to waste precious controlable skillslots on something 'stupid' as healing.
You have 32 skillslots that you can control, are you sure you want to dedicate a fair portion of those to healing?
I still remember the comment of Bhavv who complained that we human players were inferior to his heroes and hench because he could not flag us in his wards. That's another way of handling things, just make sure the red bars don't go down so your bad AI healers waste less energy.
You can for example also achieve this with SY on a human warrior or paragon.
I know my choice. If I want a braindead team build I take my discord team.
If I want efficiency I take other far more offensive builds (depending on the area) and the monk hench. Because a dead foe isn't going to do any damage.
24 Dec 2008 at 11:59 - 151
Discordway is very far from generic in my expirience. Sometimes when facing foes that lack pressure but have huge damage spikes like jade bortherhood on hard mode or destroers which also have low defense you want to have prot to soak their damage on a protted target and then follow in with a kill on other hand with foes like gwen charrs on hm who dont have very huge damage but are great pressurers you need something which makes your red bars go up quickly.
Dunno whats more retarded, I think most retarded is believing that you would never need to even look at your hero bars when discording.
25 Dec 2008 at 13:33 - 153
You can run the one on the wiki with a 1 human, 3 hero and 4 hench (2 monk and 2 ele) anywhere. I changed it along the way, it was way worse when i first submitted it, but it is good enough for like anything now (almost all HM can be done with this)
As for changing stuff, you can bring extra hexes, but you don't need extra damage or something.
25 Dec 2008 at 20:16 - 154
Healer henchies can work if you already have sufficient protection from your character+heroes. This means you would not require as much heals from runeless Mhenlo as some other, more damage-inclined, builds do. So use healer hench if you want, they would balance out one way or another in tougher HM areas.
28 Dec 2008 at 21:59 - 155
[Discord MM;OANDUslfSxMVBoBKg4B1DBEVVA]
Actually has 16 Death 10 Soul 9 Prot & blood stained boots
uses Woe Spreader so Health = 570 e = 40
[Discord Hex/Condition;OABDUshnS2BMixM1BICIBVBVVA]
6th skill is Barbs don't know what happened
12 Death 10 Curses 8 Soul uses Woe Spreader
Health = 630 e = 42
Using conditions that don't require flesh is important imo.
[Discord Support/Prot;OANDUslfSxMfBoBKgaR1DBEVVA]
12 Death 11 Soul 9 Prot uses Prot Staff e+15 Ench+20% H+30 HSR 20%
Health = 620 e = 45
I just hh hm, with a slightly (in my opinion) worse triple discord hero build, Blood Washes Blood, Vanquished Arborstone (I have Vanquished Arborstone Sabway (great job Sab) many times this Discord build was IMO much better and faster) and Oola's Laboratory. As you know minions are worthless in Oola's lab but this build did great.
Disclaimers start here:
My main character is [HB monk;OwYT043AZKuKHUi43ZjAZ4jQmAA]
Healing 14 Divine 13 high wep set = +15 e +30 h ench + 20% HSR 20% staff low wep set = Rod +15 -1e HSR 20% Off hand +27 -1e +30 h
This build is for hh hm. I run with 1 healer 1 prot 1 ele and 1 warrior hench.
So if your main is not a healer you probably need the resto rit parts and sense I am a healer for me doupling up on prots is great.
Also if your main has some Hex/Condition stuff you may not need so many on the Hex/Condition necro.
I am interested in comments from people who have tried this build or variations of it and comparisons of different skills that could be used to make it better. imo it rocks right now but better is... well better.
29 Dec 2008 at 08:10 - 156
2 skills to inflict weakness and 2 putrid biles make me sad. You also have 2 minion spells, but why Putrid Explosion? That's counter-productive.
29 Dec 2008 at 22:05 - 157
I'm looking for a little more help if you can. I take it you would only use one copy of Putrid Bile. Why? What would you use in place of if it? I thought that Putrid Explosion would work on a minion corpse. In thinking about this and your comment it looks like I was wrong in which case it is a bad idea. Can anyone confirm whether Putrid Explosion does or does not work on a dead bone minion? I checked Wiki under minions, putrid explosion and corpse and could not find an answer. What would you take in place of Putrid Explosion? Any other ideas?
29 Dec 2008 at 23:23 - 158
Minions don't leave corpses when they die neither do vanguard sins. Wish that vanguards would leave exploitable corpses when they die, then you could have minions anywhere.
30 Dec 2008 at 18:46 - 159
I've seen some people using [weaken armor] in their discord builds. Do all enemies have armor?
Also, please some people who have been running discord builds post them and join the discussion about which hexes and conditions to use and why. Also what are reasons to prefer the ritualist healing skills to the monk ones? Thank you.
30 Dec 2008 at 22:41 - 160
Yes weaken armor works on all enemies but cracked armor can only bring it down to 60. But -20 armor doesn't really matter because the only physicals hitting them will be minions and sins (if your using 6 discord heroes anyway) however if you use more physicals then it should help more.
Monk heals are usually a bit weaker because they are supposed to be buffed by divine favor (which secondaries can't get). Also, depending on the protection skills you bring (prot spirit, aegis) your not going to need as many spike heals when you have spirit light and then party heals which is what usually causes deaths. Atleast for me, the only deaths I have seemed to receive is ones where the party is taking too much damage and the ai can't heal them all. Unfortunately multiple koali pots will be dropped at the same time and thus waste most of them.
Enfeebling blood is priority condition number one. Decent aoe and recharge, as well as a great condition to weaken the enemies. I run with 6 heroes with a friend and incase we split up or play alone I split the hex/ condition on each of them. So one can have suffering and weaken armor the other can have shadow of fear and enfeebling blood. Only really useful if your going into an area that has hex or condition removals so that you can still overload them and land the discords.
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