New Books, Retroactive?

Blah, blah, blah. Stop your whining kids. Get over it.

I know you have an ugly face.

Am I as mature as you already?

No, I am just illustrating that we vets had more opportunities on getting near-free stuff, starting with those who were there during trader price reset. Getting book rewards might be right thing to do, but it is hardly necessary or huge concern.

While you basically tell us "shut up cuz i don't like you", (again) we give reasons and facts to support our argument.
If you just tell us to stop without anything to support your claim, YOU are the one who's whining, kid.

Very good point (like most you've brought so far ). If people really want fairness, they should stop talking only about things that benefit them. It reminds me of these "veteran stories" of the kind "I remember when +30hp sword was 100k", which imply that now people can't get the 95k+ difference and it's unfair to them. Similarly for those that would want to grind through HFFF or any other farm that was nerfed.

It doesn't seem "fair" that people claim that Anet explanation of "retroactive book rewards will screw the economy", while they have no good explanation for this, because they no nothing about the real numbers. You can distrust this explanation, you can ask for a clarification, but claiming it's false is unfair.

Fair is not "good", which is something that everyone can assess relative to itw own situation. Fair is about the greater good, the good of a big group, when a majority feels that something is good. It's never, ever perfect in a world with such diversity.

What "greater good" comes from not making the books retroactive?

The EotN books were introduced retroactive. Veterans were happy to have been compensated for stuff they had already done. New players were happy to have another way to gain reputation. All the other options getting rep were still on the table. Needless grind was reduced. Anet gained good will by giving people more options and a little recognition at the same time. That was basically a win-win all the way around.

I sort of don't understand the people arguing in favor of what Anet did. In most debates on Guru, there are two sides with arguments for and against a specific thing that has been done. People for loot scaling argue about the effects of gold inflation. People against it complain about how much harder it is to get gold. People arguing against Ursan complain about dumbing down of builds. People arguing for it talk about how it brings players of all skill levels together to have fun in otherwise difficult areas. There are reasonable arguments for and reasonable arguments against.

In this case, there are good arguments against what Anet did. They created a perception of treating different parts of the community differently. They subtracted less grind than the easily could have. They poorly communicated the news in the update notes creating a false impression of a gain that never materialized.

The only good argument for the decision they made was the potential impact on the economy - something Anet easily could have mitigated. Nearly all of the other arguments I've read, I am sorry to say, are ad hominem. They are criticizing the complainers for being ungrateful. That is simply not an argument in support of what Anet has done. It is a personal attack. That isn't to say that the complainers haven't done the same thing, but sprinkled throughout the QQ'ing are valid arguments against.

I wish the "pro" side would offer why what Anet did was a good idea. Saying the complainers are "greedy" or "lazy" or deficient in some other way is getting old.

@ hallomik

Very good post, and I agreed with most of what you said. However, I think the one problem in the comparison between the EotN rep books and the new books is that the EotN books were introduced almost immediately, while many people still had a reasonable amount still to be completed, whereas these new books are coming several years later, when almost everyone has completed the requirements.

I would say that the point of the update was to not so much meant to reduce the grind, but more to provide alternatives and new modes in which the grind may be more enjoyable. To make these books retroactive would have been giving a LOT of free points. Handouts were not part of the update.

The idea of not making them retroactive fits the goal of reducing and/or making the grind more enjoyable, while avoiding "freebies".

It's more like when they increased the rewards on the books and gave everyone who'd turned one in already the chance to fill out another (for the usual fee) and turn it in for the new reward. And that's exactly what people expected from these books, I think (I know I was)...

I was under the impression that was the whole idea...

See? you said it yourself! But they havent reduced the grind. They only offered more ways to grind for the titles. Still grind imo.

whining gets things done. if the americans didnt whine about britian, there would have been no revolution. whining about bush got us obama instead of mccain. whining in a democracy is necessary.

Excellent post my friend.

Simply put, the greater good comes from players not only looking at what benefits them, but what would benefit others. (remember this oldie ) And btw I'm in favor of retroactive books (only if the whole range of rewards is changed so as to not make the gains unbalanced, but we don't have the numbers and Anet should give an explanation on this point), but to talk about fairness without mentioning the tons of things that "veterans" got and that new players will never get is not right.

It's the right of players to come here and complain/criticise, even saying that they don't want to play the game anymore (because they've played it too much before) but still get new rewards (which is the most difficult bit to accept for someone actually playing the game, if they'd be willing to play the game, they'd get the books like everyone else). But I find it much more healthy in a global sense to thank Anet for getting people to play the game again, rather than push the envelope of fairness such that players can do nothing (not play) and still get something (just have to log in to get free faction, which all veterans did but they want more).

As much as I don't want to tell people how to play and have fun, it's difficult to defend a position where you don't want to play but still want cookies for having played (or for the number of months that the command /age returns, which can also be very unfair because many people would have been "veterans" if they knew about GW long before, it's not like veterans have an inner ability that is intrinsically syperior to newer players, whatever veterans/new players means anyway...).

NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY
NOBODY WANTS THE MONEY

We want only Faction. Faction doesn't ruin the economy. There is no reason not to give people with Protectors/Guardians Faction, because they did missions + bonuses. Right now people don't need bonus or master to get the book.

We STILL would have done more than they, it would be a bit more fair.

*sigh* They HAVE reduced the grind.

They didn't only offer more ways to grind for the titles: they also offered ways to grind titles that are faster than the previous fastest methods

Faster gains = Less grind

Yes, if you want max titles, they don't come free - you grind for them. That's never going to change. But you grind less now, and you have more choices.

I do. Thats the only reason i want retroactivity.

I'm greedy.

1 - Sorry, but the book system hasn't brought any "fun" in this game. As Linsey herself said, it was just meant to make "grinding feeling less like grinding", and it failed miserably in the task in my opinion, since rewards are mostly minor and not really worth the time spent doing books over and over. Sure, people might have fun repeating missions hundred of times (I probably will do it myself), but saying this suddenly made the game "fun" again is a bit far-fetched in my opinion.

2 - People are not asking for "cookies". They're asking for the very same reward awarded to new players for doing half the job. Just once, for having played the whole game without the book system - which is easily demonstrated by the progression track in the game, not just Protectors or Guardians titles - , which should have been introduced much earlier to make any sense. BTW, I don't see anyone who wants "free" rewards while not willing to play. I WANT to play. Problem is I've ALSO played a lot before. It's not like people complaining are asking for enough faction to max all the titles. Even if we get a retroactive book, we'll still need to complete a lot more books in most cases.

3 - What's so "unfair" in the response of the /age command? You don't think the age of your account/characters makes them "superior" in any way, do you?

4 - People getting the game now don't have this "superior return" when typing /age, whatever that is (other players can't even see how old your characters are...). Yet they get a much cheaper game, 3 years of bugfixes and updates, improved gameplay. The games have also been tuned to be more welcoming and easier for newcomers. I don't think this is an advantage, but for some new player it is. So they get enough advantages for getting the game so late. Taking care about new players is good, but it's not a good reason to make older players upset tough.

5 - What the heck are you saying? It's not about "superiority", the only one talking about superiority it's YOU, by thinking tha /age makes "veterans" superior in any way, and by saying getting factions could make them feel even more superior than they supposedly are. If we ever get those books retroactive, nobody is gonna notice. So "veterans" have no way to make "new players" feel any superiority thanks to a modest increase in their rep titles. I really hope you were kidding about this...

6 - I'm getting sick of people thinking that older players are unpleasant and greedy. That's a stupid generalization.

BTW... It's actually very simple. Much simpler than this whole "superiority" business.

Requirement for the book reward: doing missions to be recorded in the book.

Anyone playing before 13th November probably fullfills this requirement. Yet Anet made this just a problem of timing. A friend of mine joined my guild yesterday. He got the game almost a month ago. I'm helping him and he's now playing in the Maguuma Jungle. He's a new player. Guess what? He has three or four missions accomplished before the update, which he has to do AGAIN for them to be recorded in the book. Hadn't I helped him to learn the basics, he would have probably been stuck in the pre-searing still. So is it my fault for being an helpful and pleasant "veteran"... and screwing up his first book? See if it's just a matter of age now.

He doesn't have to repeat them if he doesn't want to. A partially complete book still gives a nice benefit that wouldn't exist if A-Net hadn't added the books at all. Of course, if he wants MORE benefit from the book, he can choose to repeat those three of four missions.

Here is a version of the argument that IMHO better shows the "fair" side of things:

Grind was introduced in the game and many (most?) players don't like it at all. Despite this update slightly reducing grind and/or making it less painful/boring to play the game (depending on your style of play), the Factions Allegiance titles are still very difficult to attain (and it's everyone's right to want to get them). While it may be slightly better now for "newer" player who are not bored of redoing the game's content, there would have been an easy way to simplify it for "older" players who have (possibly extensively) played the game at a time when these titles didn't exist. In effect, retroactively granting protectors/guardians the corresponding NM and HM books without money rewards would put these players back on the track to these titles, which are after all more a matter of time than skill. And because they've spent more time, they should get more progress towards these grindy titles, it's only fair.

(possible consequence: if these retroactive book rewards are granted by Anet, and the sudden increase in players in-game is stopped, the community will have lost an opportunity to get together again, newer and older players alike, pugging to have fun)

I ONLY want the money. I couldn't give two shits about faction.

Spot on. But why can't he get full benefit, just for having done a couple of missions two days before the update? Why does he need to do them again to get the full reward?

Don't tell me you wouldn't even care if that happened to you. I won't believe it.

Actually it has happened to me, I have a newish character that I've just taken through Nightfall and EotN, and only recently started in Tyria. And no, I don't care.

So many things have been added to the game over the years, many came too late for me to take advantage of (oh well), many did not (cool!), many stopped me doing certain things (it was good while it lasted).

Each time, take what you can get, ask nicely/beg if you want changes (but don't start with the "I am ENTITLED to..." nonsense), complain if there is REALLY something to complain about (rare)... and ultimately move on, get back to playing the game.

Do I not care because I am a jaded "veteran"? I don't think so - in the early days, when GW was all shiny and new, I repeated missions again and again - because I failed them... or missed the bonus... or to help someone else... or to cap an Elite... or just because it was fun. I often learned something when I repeated stuff. So even as a noob, I didn't think anything of it - I was in no particular hurry, and I wasn't like "omg wtf anet is making me grind!"

Why do you think anyone stopped playing the game because of this update?

I did not. Actually, I got my 13th Protector of Tyria just yesterday - and I was able to fill in just 5 or 6 missions in the book, since I was halfway through when the update went live. I started my 15th PvE character and I'm gonna do the missions again. I have fun doing them. I would have done them even without books. This doesn't prevent me and players like me to move criticism about this whole operation tough. Having fun doing something doesn't mean you can't think about what you've done already.

As I've said before, I didn't mean to comment about the retroactivity of books. As soon as I realized that books weren't retroactive I moved on. I thought about how nice it could have been for me, but that was it.

What pushed me into this discussion is this "Life is unfair, this is none of my business, doesn't affect me directly, stop whining" feeling you get in this thread. I've given up, but not because "life is unfair" and so we should get a grip... I've given up just because I think there's no point anymore, since developers will hardly care about it.

I still think most of the detractors here are just as selfish and childish as they say complainers are. They're just gloating over a disadvantage hitting category they clearly despise, that's it.

No, I'd be amazed if anybody quit the game because of this update. Sure, they could have made books retroactive, and I'd benefit from that as much as anybody. But who would quit the game because of that, when we still got stuff for free, and there were so many great improvements?

Agree with most of the rest of your post.

Personally I have no problem with people lobbying for retroactive books. It amounts to "I want more please" or "I want a piece of that", but that's fine in itself if people are honest about it.

What irks me is when they start blowing things out of all proportion and pretending it's NOT "I want more". Since "I am greedy" is not likely to persuade Anet, they try to justify their requests with talk of "entitlement", "unfairness", failure to deliver on what they perceive as the "purpose" of the update (or not delivering enough of it), A-net is "forcing me to grind" etc etc. Which is all rubbish in my opinion.

Well, I agree...

Speaking personally, I admitedly "would have liked more" (mind you I don't WANT it, if I don't get it I won't die), yet I would have liked something that it seems pretty reasonable and fair to ask to me, nothing more.

I don't think anyone ever pretended it was nothing but this - scroll pages and you'll see the thread is full of "All we want is factions!" posts -, but I still think there's really nothing wrong with it.

Talking about "greed" is just a bit far-fetched. Greedy would be a player asking for credit for ANYTHING he/she has done in the past. Look, I could max all of the rep titles with most of my characters if I was to get a entry in a book for any time I've cleared a mission to help someone. See if I ever dare asking anything like that!

This is a game, we play for fun, but games have objectives and tasks, and getting them accomplished is what makes the game fun. Are we to blame for this? Because we'd like to get something we could have got if this update was introduced when it actually would have made sense? I don't think so.

BTW, as much as this world is unfair, people in this world are greedy. Nobody does anything without expectations, anything else is pure utopia. So there's nothing surprising in people asking for more. This also applies to developers saying they "love their playerbase", confectioning an update to make them happy. That's just their job, they did what they get paid for and their interest is to keep the game alive for a while before GW2 is ready (if it will ever be, that's it...). While they're at it, they made the game even more welcoming for new players (who will probably be there ang get GW2 as well) by offering huge discounts on the campaigns when purchased alltogether and now by breathing new life into this game with the book system.

So there's really no ingratitude into all of this. It's a game of give and take, Anet is not a non-profit institution, and we're nothing but their customers. It's all of their interest to keep their customers satisfied.

You're over-generalising.

If Anet grants retroactive books with faction rewards only, for the sake of fairness, how could they then defend themselves in the future about, for example (suggested by Avarre on the other thread), not giving PvP players retroactive Zkeys for their Balth faction?

And I'm sure we can find other examples. So when does this stop? Obviously, when everyone is happy and not complaining/requesting anything. But there's no guarantee that people will stop and not start requesting more stuff (look at the Sardelac Sanitarium Guru subforum to convince yourself of that).

(so the next question is, given Anet's limited resources, how do we prioritise these changes? I mean each person would want the rewards that maximise their own game experience...)

P.S.: before anyone categorises me as "in favor" or "against", please read my previous messages.

Easy: Z-keys would give you an enourmous monetary boost, whereas faction only boosts a title. It would be unfair to hand out a lot of expensive keys in one big bang to this part of the playerbase and not give anything to the other part. If you earn it steadily, then np.
FACTION rewards from the retroactive books *without* the money won't give anyone advantages, except for a reduced need to grind for a title.

Why anyone would be against that is beyond me, except if they're elitist selfish snobs who don't want others to gain a title they earned "the hard way". This is a game, play nice kids! Don't be envious over a game, that's just sad.

So If Anet was not offering money for books then it would be much easier to make them retroactive. Both threads go to this conclusion but what about prophecies books? EXP only?

You're right, but people think that asking for more after this great update is exactly that (envy from veterans because new players get things they didn't get).

Regarding Zkeys, you could argue the same point: give them the corresponding Zkeys on their Zrank title, or unlock everything on their account, or ... . The point was not to show one example that people could agree or disagree with, but simply that the list can go on, and on, etc.

I have already vanquished every area, why on earth would I want to go and vanquish more?

Don't get me started on retrospective faction rewards for areas alread vanquished before the update.....

That's not envy I think, that's a feeling of unwillingness to have to grind VQ/missions they already finished. It has nothing to do with newer players getting it straight away. They'll have to do the same for the max title, they just haven't started yet. It's just people saying: "Look Anet, you're rewarding people for completing a campaign now, and that's really nice and all, and we wouldn't even care if it was just XP and gold rewards, but you're also rewarding FACTION which we need for a TITLE that takes a LOT of GRINDING. And you promised us to do something about all this grinding. And face it, we'll have to complete those books many many times to max those titles (L/K), so the 1 time we already did it won't matter that much to you perhaps, but it would surely reduce the grind for US, so could you pretty please grant us the faction gain from doing this campaign once in NM/HM?"

I realize you could just as easy turn this around and say: "okay well, what's doing Factions one time more or less if you need to do it 80 times to max the title?". But then I'd say: 1 time less is still 1 time less. No harm in asking is there? If not, well, then so be it.

I just don't see the harm in asking for the bit of extra faction for work already done. It's not like it'll give you instant max title. And even if it did, who cares? Only envious people with the title at max already would care :P (and I don't care 'bout them xD)

I wish developers could, for the sake of fairness. Yet they didn't just because they couldn't, since they haven't kept track of what players have done with Balthazar Faction in the past. Remember what Linsey said? Guess so, since you've been quoting her at least twice. That's about it.

There's no technical reason for those books not to be retroactive tough, they didn't just because they didn't want to (economy being the debatable answer), which is what it making people upset. It's a whole different story, comparison makes little to no sense.

The game does track how much Balthazar Faction you've accumulated, as someone has mentioned before.

Exactly what I was saying here. But this is not the way a few people have requested this. Honestly, I'm not sure whether there aren't greedy people using the excuse of fairness to get more (but I won't over-generalise and say that most people did).

But that's exactly what I was saying above: people may ask for the other 30 times they did complete this or that, but then Anet will simply say that it's not technically feasible (as they didn't record successive missions successes); then people may ask about the areas they VQ'd as Olof said; then it's going to give the feeling that asking for more is perfectly normal, because we all have to get something and this thing has to be of the same "value". It's a never-ending story, and I'm really even wondering whether anyone from Anet will read this argument (if not, it's just a matter of ourselves, GW players, changing the way we perceive things, not the things changing...)

It does.

But it doesn't keep track of what you've done with it, be it skill or upgrade unlocks or nothing at all.

How could they say?

And when they do, Linsey will tell them to stop asking, because it's not technically feasible. Period.

Yet ONE book is. Not only it's possible, it's absolutely REASONABLE, since that appened before with EotN books. Otherwise, books to me look just like a pitiful attempt to spin this out ("Veterans are quitting, let's give them a reason to play the same game over and over again!!"), a cheap way to "add content" to the game while GW2 gets increasingly vaporware-ish day by day.

Good post.

I am a veteran player who would benefit pretty handsomely if the books were made retroactive. And if Anet chose to do that, I'd accept the rewards gladly.

That said, I don't think their decision was unfair. And the reason is one that I think a lot of folks here are willing to overlook:

Every single mission I did pre-update had an advertised reward. After every mission, I received the advertised reward. There was no promise of future benefits whatsoever. And knowing all of this, I completed the missions. Last Wednesday, there was no thought in my head that the rewards I had gotten for completing these missions and titles were unfair. Why would that change Thursday?

Another thing to note is that this does not discriminate against veteran players. As a vet, I have every opportunity to earn the new rewards. No mission is locked to me. I might not have the desire to do missions again, but that is my perogative.

This, by the way, is a load of crap. Say what you mean to say: you want the reward that most benefits you.

I'm sure there are plenty of players, be they players without Factions/Nightfall, or players who aren't interested in Allegiance title tracks, or players who are just plain broke, who would very much like to have the money. Please don't presume to speak for them.

I find it funny that in the name of "fairness", some posters are willing to negotiate away the rewards that don't benefit them for the ones that do. Some players would be happy to get the experience and money, but not the faction. If that went down, would you concede that Anet had done the fair thing, made a fair compromise?

If not, then drop the "we don't want money, we just want what's fair" argument. That really is selfish.

I didn't get retroactively added faction when the faction screen displayed all gained faction, whereas previously it simply vanished when you were maxed (and you were maxed if you PvP'd at all). I didn't get retroactive chest title or wisdom points when Factions came out either. I certainly didn't get retroactive loot from clearing UW and FoW before the end chest changes, or from the change in style of the HoH chest.

I didn't get retroactive experience for all the Prophecies elites I capped before the xp bonus for elite capping was given either, removing a great number of potential skill points that I had theoretically 'earned' and forcing me to grind if I wanted to maintain uax in pve. And unlike the others, as some have argued, this one had clearly tracked stats at the point of implementation.

People are getting upset from the same old entitlement issues that encouraged stupid changes to PvE for years. It's not a necessary change, and for a game currently in the phase of trying to artificially extend gameplay through grind, there's certainly no incentive to give the players more.

A quality post, Trankle

One retroactive book for each mode would work for Factions and Nightfall, but I'm not sure what to do about Prophecies. To say that getting a retroactive book would require Protector/Guardian would be asking more than you really need to earn the book in the first place, and there are easy ways of beating Prophecies without playing all of the missions.

If an easy solution could be found, I wouldn't mind one retroactive book for each mode of full playthrough in any campaign. However, it shouldn't be that big a deal, because as far as gold and experience go, there are better ways of getting both, and there are probably also faster ways as well for gaining Kurzick/Luxon faction, although the books provide a unique way of being able to advance both titles at once.

The real reason that books were introduced was to remove a small portion of grind by making a few larger rewards that could be obtained through playing the game. If you've already played through the game a few times, you should be at a point where that end reward isn't really that beneficial, and so you shouldn't be whining over it anyways (save Shiro's Return for Kurzick/Luxon faction, but there are still other fast(er?) methods of getting that faction).

I think you answered yourself.

Except the last one, all those are technically impossible. The XP bonus for caps was introduced much earlier in the game and didn't impact as many players as this update is doing now. Even so, I would have supported this.

Some changes could have been retroactive but weren't, some of them were and some people could have argued about them as well (think about how useless did the Rune of Absorption got), so?

/threadwinner.

Absolutely true. IF they decide to make something retroactive I'd only be interested in the extra portion Luxon and Kurzicks faction. I'd gladly give up all the gold earnings for that.