Level cap - GW2

Warhammer is just having a drop in server population because PEOPLE'S 30 DAY TRIAL HAS ENDED. Everyone who bought the game right when it came out just haven't bothered renewing yet.

It has nothing to do with content (trust me, there's PLENTY of that), but everything to do with the fact that you can't compare a game with non-monthly fees to one with monthly fees. And you can't compare any game to WoW because its had years to build up a fan base.
Warhammer, although having less players now then when it was first released, is far from a failure. It still has plenty of potential to draw back old players if it fixes a few class balance issues, deals with lag, release new professions with the next big patch, and most importantly merges servers so there are more people (PLEASE). It is still to early to pass final judgement on that.


And I agree that anybody going "OMG GW is dead" is a moron when you look at just how many people are playing this game.

I can't get why people scream in this thread and the million similar ones that high level means lots of grind. Do normal offline rpgs have lots of grind just because the level cap is 99? No because the games aren't meant to keeping you paying a monthly fee. That is what Guild Wars is, a normal RPG except that you have to play it online. Guild Wars 2 will take elements of normal MMOs but it won't become one because they aren't trying to milk you of every monthly payment they can. What I think it will be more like is say Oblivion or Fallout 3 taken completely online. Huge open world, lots of quests to do, lots of people running around but it doesn't take you 3-4 hours of slow tedious combat to gain one level in the newbie area. You know, it's funny. I said something very similar, and I don't remember if it was on this forum or another, and got ripped to shreds and now you say it and it gets ignored.

Because there aren't many, if at all, WAR fanboys here. Just some people don't see that:

1. WAR's pve is more limited than GW.
2. PvP is as of this day only scenarios and ORvR if you are really lucky to be on a high popularity server.
3. ORvR is usually:

One side attacks, takes the keep. The other side waits till the people stop defending, takes over the keep. The other side leaves, then attacks when nobody's home. Why? Because people waste time defending the keep. They don't get anything for 30-60 minutes.
4. Melee, except for Stealth and Marauders, is really gimped, as RDPS just cakewalk over them.
5. Healers are already hard to play, yet Mythic gives less and less rewards for playing them... Lowered renown hurts the most.

People aren't renewing because the game is boring as hell, not because they "forgot" or "haven't bothered". You say there's a lot of content but all the complaints I've read say the game gets really grindish in the mid twenties or something. Its not too early to judge, WAR sucks bad.

I disagree notskorn. I find the game a lot of fun, as do apparently a large number of people who still play it. It definately has more content then GW. The only people complaining about "lack of content" are the people who are trying to compare it to WoW (which is really unfair considering how much time WoW has had to add new content to it's game since launch).

The same people who post and whine about how WAR sucks are the same people who post and complain about how GW sucks. It has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with learning to ignore the opinions of people who post on game forums, who are usually a masocistic minority of the community who spend their time complaining on a forum. People who enjoy the game spend more time playing it.

WAR could be a big hit if enough people keep joining the game over the next few months and they condense the severs down. It does have problems. ORvR is a joke and there needs to be rewards for defending keeps/more of a point in zone ownership. None of these problems are "gamebreaking" and can fixed.

Really, I just think its still to early to judge WAR either way. Its not a success, but its far from a complete failure... yet. At least wait enough time for the casual gamer to reach tier 4 before complaining.

Indeed, there is a whole lot to enjoy in WAR. Classes are fun (gogo Marauder), open RvR is pretty sweet, scenarios are interesting, mods are growing, and all centered around action points.

They really need to focus on fixing the keep crashes (all that effort for it to go boom? no thanks), performance issues, and class balance concerns. After that it's a pretty solid game.

Hmm, tbh I'd prefer a "no level" system rather than an "infinite level, power capped" system.

What, some of you might say, no attribute points or heath/mana increases. Quest for it. As long as a PvP character system exists like it does now with PvP only characters with maxed attributes, then I see no reason to bother with levels at all.

An "infinite level, power capped" system would encourage elitism. Yes e-peen means nothing, but it does make the game unfriendly at times.

Leave e-peen for the titles that are a choice to chase rather than an infinte grind to show xp and get in a group to do x-mission which possible from lvl20 but no one would accept anything less than a lvl100.

I'm more afraid that ridiculously high levels result in a new level of elitism for players.

Elitism isn't necessarily related to high levels. Just goto Ascalons PVP arena sometimes and take a gander at level 8's or 9's in there with their Droknar's armor and a handful of elites from around that area in the snow Mineral Falls I think it were. Most elitism is formed at a certain point in the game where a major portion of the population has crossed over and from that point on these are the ones that dictate the prices and the builds and the rules of engagement and the team builds etc. etc. in most all mmo's. Doesn't have to be maximum level for elitism to begin though.
When GW was new it was a great game. Just about anyone would group with everyone, people were happy just to get to play in a group. Now all you read is PUGS suk this and PUGS suk that and PUGS suk in general. All these now elitists that used to be those ignorant pug players don't want to help or allow anyone new coming into the game to grow as they did, leeching off of others as they did, trying to learn the game like they did when they were idiots. See, that's how elitism works.

After reading that I'm at a loss for words, and not in a good way.

Actually, I dislike WAR because of following stuff:

1. I play on US server, but now I'm glad because GoA fails.
2. There is no ORvR on my server, at least up to 18th there was nothing.
3. Scenarios are boring, more boring than RA/TA.
4. ...And they are usually as chaotic/luck dependant as AB's.
5. They promised buffs. Cool, my level 21 eng after 1.05 is the weakest class. At least we had lame Magnet, now we have got NOTHING to make people take us.
6. Horrible performance.

regardless of the reasoning though, gw was alot better in the beginning.

cap skill gain at level 20. the level cap itself will be unlimited, probably just to serve as a title. or promote rank discrimination.

First off, can ppl stop trying to separate Levels from character growth? Please?
If you don't want levels to give you more skills, attribute point, etc - then what's the point?

Second, I want to address some concerns/complaints I've seen from other posters:

1. Grind: GW is an RPG, ALL RPGs, be they JRPGs or American RPGS, have some sort of grind. GW2 will be a RPG, so it WILL have grind. You have to EARN your skills some way. If you want everything available to within the first few days of playing, then go play an online game that is NOT an MMO.

2. Elitism: Okay, this confuses me. Games, by definition, are competitive, and competitiveness breeds elitism, END OF STORY. You don't want any elitism, then don't play games! There will always be ppl who are better, more experienced players than others.

Now, with those out of the story - I'm going to give an idea I have about the level system. I WANT to hear some feedback, too. Anyway, here goes:

I don't see a problem with an high/unlimited level cap. How bout we have it work in a similar way to SP RPGs that are usually found on consoles. The Level cap is high, but NEVER required to get all the REGULAR in-game and all PvP content, but Elite/Special content that are more appealing to the hardcore will require significantly higher levels to access/complete. These would offer the rewards such as high-end armor, uniques, etc.

Next, how bout Anet add in an Attribute system like 99% of ALL other RPGs (both MMO and SP) in that every character has a set of base Attributes they all share: Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Endurance, etc - you get the idea. When you create your character, then you're given somewhere between 10-20 points to put into those attributes, but after that they grow a little bit per level based on your profession, to keep, say, an ele from becoming an uber warrior-mage type character. Also, the attributes would have starting values that would highly separate the profs, and done in a way so that when you put your attribute points in at the beginning you can't "make" your toon uber powerful at the beginning.

Now, this "new" attribute system would NOT replace the old, but add to it. Each profession would still have those points that they put into their character at each level to improve the effectiveness of the skills related to said, let's call em "perks" instead of attributes. Now, keep in mind that the Attributes that you modify at character creation CANNOT be changed after that & increase automatically based on primary and secondary prof. so you would NOT have to try and manage both.

Finally, make the changes at each level small enough that players up to 5-7 levels apart can still play together and have fun. One game that has done this fairly well is FFXI (though the grind w/ that particular MMO is too much for me) in that ppl up to 5 levels away can play together and still get the benefits of a party at the same level.

So far, everything I've talked about would affect ONLY PvE characters. I suggest that PvP remain similar to it is now and that PvP characters start at a "maxed" out setting & PvE characters that do PvP are limited to specific stat limitations that provide as much equal ground as possible. That's the best PvP solution I can come up with, though in my experience competitive games - from sports to video games - rarely have ppl on equal ground as you always have someone w/ more experience or natural skill or something else that gives thema n advantage over the other person/team.

But that's all I've got, feel free to tear apart or add to my suggestions, but PLEASE, keep it clean.

I don't really see a point to it. Guild Wars attribute system is simple, effective, easy to change, and uncluttered. While it makes sense to me why you are suggesting cross-profession "perks", it is another level of complexity that just adds to the elitism/grind (all elementalists need max intelligence, all warriors need max strength etc.) that already plagues all of these RPGs including GW to some extent, and if you "screw up" your character creation (spec inappropriately), you have to reroll to be competitive.

@OP: I want there to be no level cap. BUT, I want there to be a "power level" system with a cap at 20-30. In GW1, at every level you get more health and more attribute points. What I am suggesting is that there be more levels in between each of these steps in health/stats. For example, levels 1-5 would be under power level 1, levels 6-10 power level 2, and so on. At each of the normal levels, you maybe get a skill or reputation points (depending where you are) or money or access to a new area. At each of the power levels, you get to increase your health and attributes. Now lets say 5 levels for each power level, making the max power level occur at level 100. Any level after 100 is then pure vanity, so then the super-nice armors (like Obsidian) and elite PvE areas would be available to those who have gone past that. Level 100's would be regarded as level 20's currently in GW1, as all would have the same stats (200 att points, 500 base health, etc.)

The reason for suggesting this is simply make the GW level system slightly better. I started a new character recently, and got him to level 20 easily in 8 hours. While it is nice not to have to worry about leveling in GW, it really takes the fun out of creating the character to have him at max level so quickly. I would make the time it takes to reach level 100 in GW2 at least 30 hours, if not 50. But that really depends on the amount of content after max level, which I hope is the biggest thing ANet delivers on (elite PvE content).

I have a question for all of those who want unlimited cap: Just straight up why?

Is it because you like to grind?
Is it because you want to look good at higher levels?
Is it because you want to continue to get better however long you play?

I personally dont mind unlimited cap under ONE condition: After a certain point, levels dont mean squat. All they become is numbers, you dont gain anything...But it shows that you are willing to go above and beyond because you enjoy playing that character so much.

Heres why I dont think you should continue to gain power...
ANET IS GOING TO USE WORLD PVP. Now hear me out. Lets say they let a lvl 106 fight a lvl 28 that just roams around. ouchy...lol That would be BS and you all know it. You would have lvl 100's running around in lvl 30 places just to piss off ppl trying to lvl or have fun.
And secondly, what if ANET says in world PvP "If you are 10 levels apart, you cant fight." Well then now your fav character who you are just casually playing on is now a very high level and "Oh shit, I cant find anyone to fight when i want to mess around in the world PvP system because there are too many people of a low level. Damn."

BUT if you have a level where gaining any more levels doesnt matter, you can look prestigous and have more freedom in the PvE world PvP system in GW2...

comments on this please? lol

I think thats the best i can say it...

I like not having to be so focused on level. I would go for max 50 as well.

I understand your concern with World PvP, but if ANet takes the right measures, then it won't matter. A good example of a game that's handled it very well is EVE, there are several measures in place that prevent/reduce any gain you have for attacking "weaker"/newer players. I.E. Uber powerful NPC chars fly around enforcing rules in certain areas, such at aggression w/out the rights results in the attacking player getting destroyed by the NPC "police". Does the victim still die and possibly lose equipment - yes, but so does the attacker.

In addition, many MMOs have areas that are progressively more difficult requiring Higher level/skill characters to be in and as such those are the types of players you'll find there.

Frankly I don't care what the level cap is. I care about the speed of progress, remember the level cap could be as low as 20 or even 10 but the experience required could be insane like in some MMOs. Or it could be 100 or more, but you could gain levels at a very fast speed. I do hope it stays at about where Prophecies was, quests give GOOD experience but not enough to fill more than half your bar, unless it's a very important quest or enemy you just killed.

If they raised the level cap I would not mind, as a level cap helps people set goals and really feel as if they are growing in the game, but when it takes a long time to get there it punishes people after a while, so this is something that you cannot simply toss together in a game.

For some reason level 30 comes to mind as a comfortable level cap. But no matter how high the cap is, as long as there are plentiful and interesting quests to do, I'm sure nobody will care what the cap is.

90 or 100... it gets annoying having no character progression and it kills the atmosphere for me. Characters should be getting stronger as they go.

Asl long as it's as easy to gain levels now they can bump it up a good amount. If it takes a week and a half they need to keep it low lol.

I liked the level 20 cap.
I liked that GW was different.

I say 9001.....

so that it's OVER 9000!!!!

You never know they might make it really really high. That way they'll still be different lol.

Played 2months or so WAR and here is what I don't like(or what GW is better imo):
(I played no WoW before, just GW & WAR)

1) [email protected] isn't that high but still need some grind there, which is not quite my style.

2) separate server as usual MMO. However, I think GW's international gameplay is the best.

3) Classes not so balanced. As melee DPS and has caster armors, easily get killed within 5 secs.

4) The story not so clear. only some random quest like what you find in GW town, which I don't care much and just do the objectives.
GW's main missions are gd to bring out the story imo.

5) single profession and unlimited skill slots. ppl in the same class have similar 3/4 builds. Less imagination of making new build.

Sry if off-topic so much.

I say 100. Period. Nice round number.

Reason being, without levels I found after a time the game started to get dull. I could make another character and do the same things over again. I could farm. I could simply play with other people doing random things just because I enjoyed playing with other people. I could join a guild and work towards some common things and help those within the guild. I could collect skins of weapons and/or armor.

Did all that and really enjoyed it, but honestly, I settled into a favorite character profession and then started to miss character progression. Titles came about to try and fill that role, but they offered no real value in my eyes. I pursued many and enjoyed that as well. It set a goal to activity and something to do with a good friend, but for me, beyond that, they didnt offer anything. I dont expect anything of real value from them in GW2 of similar value to the tons of hours I was investing into a character, which disillusioned me on titles and, ultimately, on playing at all.

I got my fair share of gaming from Guild Wars certainly. Loved it. So dont get me wrong. The concept was brilliant at the outset.

What I think I would try now is something like this:

Level cap at 100. Levels 1-20 are effectively just like Guild Wars is now. Granted, stats and all that may be different, but one plays though the game making major strides in ability and character development through to level 20. Level 20 is when you can PvP and its when more of the game opens up to you.

Beyond level 20 is higher character progression. Stat growth is slower, but there is some. This only has effect on PvE. PvP remains played at level 20 stats, with weapons that are capped stat-wise, as GW is now. There, however, remains within the PvE realm weapons that can go beyond the PvP limit, so there is value in seeking out rarer and potentially more powerful things in addition to skin types, instead of just skin types. Same applies for armor.

There would be no AI. No heroes or henchmen. One, however, can still solo. Groups would have the ability to move through an area faster, possibly getting a better exp rate. They could also enter tougher areas due to obviously more players with them. A lone player could enter any area solo. They wouldnt be able to take on larger mobs right away, but they could in easier areas, or take on smaller groups of tougher enemies. Thing is here they could eventually level up enough so that they could do what a lower level group could, at some point being very formidable on their own. The choice is there then to play how one wishes, but group play is also encouraged and has its benefits. What should not be lost of course is the ability of a creative build to further aid someone in soloing better than someone of the same level with a generic build. Strategy and construction of build as envisioned in GW remains.

A player who only wants to get to level 20 and then enjoy the game would never need to "grind." They could simply go off and solo whatever they like, within reason, or go with a group to areas they cant solo. There would be no level discrimination due to the buddy system that averages out player group levels in some fashion, so lower level players could join and be effective. The lower level player would then earn experience at a better rate simply by playing what they wish and it wouldnt be grinding. There would always be that element there though of level progression for those who enjoy it and those who wish to do high end soloing as a goal.

I'm not fond of skill packs for purchase. I met and helped many PvP players get through certain parts of the game to get certain skills back in Prophecies days. The mix within the game of player types was fun, rather then the almost complete segregation we have now. Other game elements in my opinion should stay: 8 skill slots or similar for creative and selective builds; many skills to find and try to put to use; ability to play solo or with others; ability to take PvE character into PvP.

It would require excellent balancing, which in the last year or more I havent seen as much of from Anet, so it remains to be seen if it could be pulled off well. It would seem to require more dynamic mobs, rather than static mob sets as we have now. It would certainly require more frequent content updates. Maybe sub-chapters about the size of Sorrow's Furnace - dungeons, hidden forests etc - optional areas that can be purchased in between the release of full chapters.

With no AI it would also require a huge improvement in communication features. Mail so you can leave a short message with someone that they can get when they log in. A true global party search and recruiting system. Possibly a hub city from which you can access main areas of the game so "in-person" group forming would have a place to go, rather than standing in a less populated mission area. Better incentives for replaying things you have already completed. Level progression is an obvious thing here and more experience in this system is an encouragement of its own, but there may be others. Possibly a boon to a higher level player adopting a "buddy" for a bit so the game doesnt eventually devolve into low level players doing their thing and high level players farming.

Really in this system though, one does not have to specifically grind out levels. One would sometimes presumably need to play with others, unless they steadfastly leveled on their own, which should be made possible, just not as fast. Thing is, here it would be as it was in Prophecies days and even better, since with no AI, everyone would need to be better at group play since that is where efficiency and speed lay, so there is self-policing. Just add to that better party controls for the group leader.

There's questions and issues that would need to be solved, sure, and possibly I didnt describe something well enough, but my point is simply I can envision a game that has level and character progression without requiring it, the ability to play alone while group play remains active, and a world that always has surprises to find as opposed to simply flatlining out into having been there and done that, while still being "free" (it simply uses chapters, but also more frequent sub-chapters - all optional).

Sort of wonder if it would ever happen, but I can envision it.

People seem to be under the impression that adding more levels will increase gameplay. I just really don't get where this notion comes from...whether the level cap is 20 or 100 the game content is still going to be the exact same. With the game we currently have we could have had a level cap of 50 (speaking only from prophecies) and reached it just before the end of the game, but as we reached 20 relatively early on we simply did the same content, but with a capped level. The gameplay would have been no different had we had higher levels or kept the way it is. Higher levels does not necessarily come with a longer game, or more content. I just really don't understand where the appeal to more levels lies other than to show off how high your numbers are...

Wrong. If health/energy/attribute points are related to level, then the game is going to be different. Instead of the game being about builds/skills, it's going to be about level, which is extremely lame for the casual and non-grinding players.

I can honestly say I hate grinding to get the most out of my character. I did it once back when I played MxO. At some point I kept doing mission after mission just to get my character to 50. It was boring as hell and I'll never do it again.

No, just no...

I don't get why you people QQ about the level cap so much. I'm pretty sure (and actually Anet has stated if memory serves) that there will be no grinding for level. What's the difference anyway whether the level caps at 20 or 100 as long as you get the max during storyline. Also, in GW1 at least in NF & Factions, you get max level within 2 or 3 first missions out of 14/20. Imo it's good thing that you play longer as non max level and get the max let's say after half of the storyline or so like in Prophecies. But no level cap is just meh, it's so damn stupid and will surely lead to grinding even tho there was no benefits for more levels.

I like the idea of no level cap, but a cap on player power.

Think of it like this. What if your lvl determined your HP/Energy but only up to a certain point. So from 1-25 your HP/E increase until you hit max at lvl 25.

Now for lvl 26+ your level will determine what skins your character can equip as far as armor and weapons. Talking purely cosmetic, all the same max stats as the basic armor.

If the game is balanced there is no reason to increase your lvl beyond a certain point other than to aquire cosmetic advantages, the same can be said of cash in game. Once you can purchase max armor and weapons you have 0 need for money.

Assuming you can still farm in GW2, wouldn't a higher level cap give certain professions an advantage over others? Even if we're talking pure cosmetics.

So a monk simply walks outside, puts a heavy weight on key '1', starts spamming a healing spell and then goes to bed. No, just no... They had a system like this in Fly for Fun and all though it does have it's advantage, it's also easily abused.

Make attribute rise only if healing actually heals damage.

/problem.

I'm sure there'll be spells that don't heal, like protection prayers. What about those? And would Spirit Light spamming add to the attribute, seeing as you sacrifice health first? Other than that, you can simply cast a sacrifice spell first and then heal the damage. What about creating spirits? Weapons spells? Or skills such as Warrior's Endurance or Lightning Reflexes? Aura of Restoration?

Then Protective Prayers will give exp when a foe is attacking and dealing damage (evade/block won't count) and it prevents damage taken.

Creating spirits - more like when they damage enemies. You will train the spirits themselves, while increasing the attribute.

Spirit Light - it's a healing spell, so only when it heals DAMAGE.

Sacrifice doesn't count as a damage. Besides, game has a way of checking who dealt the damage.

Weapon spells - using charges/attacking enemy with them.

WE - Gaining energy only when you don't have maximum already. LR after blocking. AoR healing when damaged by enemy.

Problem solved with a bit of thinking.

An entire new set of problems created with a bit of thinking.....

But Guardian gives an ally a 50% to block...

I think that could be fixed by assigning a level range to an area.

Bah, point being... Err... I'm sure there are ways to avoid abuse, but it would get to complicated in the end... Plus, I still believe there's a way to afk spam certain skills.

Just keep the damn level 20 cap! It's perfect for casual gamers and hardcore grinders since level in this game means shit. Just make it so that it takes a bit longer to get there.

You all want to play an RPG but don't want to train for levels?

That's why we like GW so much =3

How about they ditch the whole concept of RPG levels as we know it? From what I've been gathering, I think they might do a system like this with their "unlimited levels" approach. Your skills and stats get better if you use them, not with arbitrary attribute speccing.

20 is enough.
I played war for 2 months and 40 is tooo much for me really it is soo much grind ffs boring as hell.
OR they could do it with no lvls like in Darkfall and that would be epic imo