Level cap - GW2

In general that sounds good however it would require an extremely complicated set of rules to keep people from abusing it.

Any game that I have seen where skills/items improve with use it has been very easy to simply sit in a low area and lvl up the skills/items before moving through the game.

That being said I have seen at least one game that had a very cool method of lvling. You gain EXP for each unique kill, then some miniscule amount for duplicate kills. Skills used to achieve the unique kill lvl up but have no effect(do not lvl up) for repeat kills. This means you constantly had to move to new areas and face new foes to lvl up your char and its skills. Something like this might work for GW2.

As I said a few pages ago, high level =/= high amount of grind. Games like WAR and WoW and other MMOs intentionally make it take forever to level up to keep the monthly fee coming in. The level cap could be 5 in an MMO and it would take you a month per level. Since there is no monthly fee for guild wars, there is no reason for them to draw out the leveling process with "grind."

That was brilliant.

On a side note: Anet should not try to cater Guild Wars 2 to everybody. I think they did that too much in the original Guild Wars, and that was an underlying core reason why it fell apart. (Don't get me wrong; Guild Wars is still a playable game, but it's nothing compared to what it was.) Anet should focus one type of game, like the groundwork and ideas behind the first game, and not throw in elements from other games like World of Warcraft to appease and satisfy the people who might not like the style of game that Guild Wars is.

I would much rather have a rich storyline in a game than have grind-attained titles and levels whose only purpose is for the player to show off. Even if the game is shorter because of it, I think it's better to have a short and meaningful campaign than a long and 'meh' one.

Guild Wars tried to be an MMO, and at it's core, it was not, at least not completely. Guild Wars is somewhat of an awkward mixture between MMOs and Diablo-esque RPGs done relatively well. One of the problems was appealing to players on either side of the spectrum, as well as appealing to those who were happy with the in-between.

Back to the point: Guild Wars shouldn't focus on things that are meant just to draw in people from other games. They should focus on their own thing and have some integrity for their own work, and then put it out into the market.

Unfortunately, I doubt this will happen: it's all about making money.

No...people like GW so much because of no monthly fees.

There is a perfect reason...because people like and want it.

If a game is good, I'll play it. If a game keeps being good, I'll continue to play it.
If a game is bad, I won't play it. If a game keeps being bad, I'll continue to not play it.
Simple as that.

Really, I don't care what kind of leveling system they have, as long as its well implemented to fit a fun game that will have a strong story component and that will stand its own over time. A game can be remembered apart from other games. That's all I really ask for in a game like Guild Wars.

[QUOTE=DreamWind;4389270]No...people like GW so much because of no monthly fees.[QUOTE]


This is why you are dumb. Dont get me wrong, the no monthly fees are awesome...But not everyone goes into a store, looking for a new game, and they say to themselves "I want a game that has no monthly fees, that's what makes a game for me"

Like other ppl have said, GW has a very unique and awesome PvP system. And other then that, well GW is unique in ways that says "Skill over happy finger" and a cool 8 skill build system.

We dont play GW for the same reason obviously...lol

Actually I like GW because there isn't compulsory grind.
I played L2 for a while and I had a love-hate relationship with it. I love character development (such as it is in rpgs) but I hated the fact that if I wanted a new character I'd have to spend a LOT of time doing that "development".

GW is different in that I can change the branch of the development tree I'm on in a jiffy. GW is different in that to have max armour and max weapons I don't need to kill x monster 500 times till it drops, or be x level in order to do that.

Character development does not require levels. It really, really doesn't. You can have skills and attribute points and health and mana without having levels. Just like you can have 100 levels but have everything capped at lvl20. It seems to me what people don't seem to get is that all that giving players higher levels (and power) does is push up the level of the enemies. The game isn't harder, better, or more emersive. Character development isn't any better simply because there are more levels.

GW has done things other MMOs did not. Now a lot of that may stem from the fact that the final goal was PvP fun, but regardless it is a GOOD thing. There are plenty of MMOs out there with lvl grind. If people want that they should be playing that. Those who are here complaining GW should have 100 levels and skill trees and this and that, well they are the people I fear DreamWind is right about. They are playing GW because it was a 1 time only purchase and has no Pay-by-the-month fees attached.

[QUOTE=KoleAurow 23;4389426][QUOTE=DreamWind;4389270]No...people like GW so much because of no monthly fees.First Off, ANYONE who tries to say they know why everyone else, besides themselves, is playing a game is dumb. Don't assume that just b/c there are a lot of posters here that dislike the idea of a high level cap means that's automatically what the majority of GW players play the game for. Only ppl who do official studies for Anet/NCsoft or for academic reasons have a right to make the HYPOTHESIS of what the majority is.

There is way too much "I'm right, you're wrong" going on in this thread and not enough discussion.

IMHO, ANet will end up doing something w/ GW2 that will encompass the interests of as many GW fans as they can, but they're also looking for ways to bring new players into GW2 that either didn't hear of GW or didn't find GW1 enjoyable. Let's face it guys, ANet is a business not a fan service and they are going to make a game that makes them the most money, not that makes their fans happy.

As for my opinion, I feel GW NEEDS a more complex character development system. It's nice to have something simple, but there is such a thing as too simple. As much as I'd hate to admit it - I play GW for the no monthly fee. Don't get me wrong it's fun, but when I log on I simply have too few options of thing to do - Farm, missions, PvP - that's it. Anyone know WHY the most popular MMO is WoW? B/C they achieved the simplicity that made GW fun, but didn't sacrifice complex character development. Don't misunderstand me, I don't want GW to be WoW, but WoW, like many other MMOs, have done things with their games that ANet can learn from, just like ANet has done things w/ GW that Blizzard and other companies can learn from.

Sorry buddy but you're wrong. No monthly fees is a gigantic reason why people play this game. I'd easily argue it is the number 1 reason for people playing and mostly for people STAYING. Just look at Warhammer Online...game was populated as hell then once people's free trials ran out the game population plummeted. Guild War's population is already plummeting. Imagine how many people would still be playing Guild Wars if there was a monthly fee. Try almost zero.

And you are right about the PvP being unique and could have been big, but as we all know, PvE is the major selling point of the game nowadays, so you clearly do not know what the hell you are talking about.

Also your "skill over happy finger" comment is stupid. We all know how much the skill level of this game has gone down the shithole, and many people apparently like it (or Anet wouldn't have done it), and anybody who has played this game since the beginning knows that. Now welcome to GW2.

The pitch is what sells the game to the players, not keeps them. And besides, what point in there is staying for a game with no monthly fee - which is no great feat, since I can count a couple thousand that feature the same thing - when your game sucks?

Having no monthly doesn't add to gameplay.

That's actually not a good reason at all, since that was one of the chief pieces of evidence used by those pro-Ursan.

I agree that having no monthly fee doesn't add to gameplay (hell some would argue it takes away from gameplay), but it absolutely keeps players. The ability for people to pick up and play whenever forever is a keeper. You also can't compare no monthly fee Guild Wars to no monthly fee other games, as Guild Wars is a high quality mmo game, and those don't usually come free.

Yes, but we know that the majority of players don't give a crap. The majority just want to jump in game and roll monsters and experience "character development" also known as leveling. Honestly, Ursan was bad for the game, but the only reason it was nerfed was because it was TOO bad, not because the majority disliked it or even cared.

No monthly fee was the main reason I purchased GW, the lvl cap had nothing to do with it and every game I have ever played had grind of some kind.

Same here No Monthy Fee is the first reason I purchased the game next to it being an online something or other. I really didn't care that it was online I could just as well have as much fun with it offline, but, I wouldn't be able to play PVP that way. So, the only real selling point of the game other than No Monthly Fee is the PVP ability and the unique skill system which really I don't like as much now as i used to because it stifles so many builds I could make if say I had 9 or 10 slots. Even Magic the Gathering has more cards you can play per battle and this game is patterned after that type of game in the skills used.

OT: No monthly fees and realistic graphics were the main reasons I went for GW. I also liked the idea that you wouldn't have to grind months to be competitive with others.

Since when did GW become "high quality" for you?

When looked at as it is, GW's model isn't terribly groundbreaking. Multiplayer RPG's (not MMO's) have existed for years. I find it interesting when people say "you can pick up and play whenever you feel like!" as if it's something revolutionary in the gaming industry (I've been doing it since I picked up Mario, thanks). But it's when the add they phrase "...as opposed to WoW/EQ/genericMMO" at the end that pisses me off, since that's how all the expectations and misconceptions roll right in.

The only things that set GW apart from other free-to-play games is its PvP, the fact that it's online only, and it's wonderful optimization. The fact that all of it's expansion packs are stand-alone is also rather uncommon.

You're still missing the point. "People like and want it" is nearly just as shitless as the "don't like, don't use" argument, except much more drastic in this scenario because it's concerning the leveling process (something that affects the *entire* playerbase). Like DL;DU it can be used to defend god mode, cheat codes, and any other overpowered facet you can imagine.

Either way, I think you're going to have a hard time finding many being all for grind. It is indeed a very subjective term, but I don't know of anyone who'd want their time to be needlessly drawn out.

As I stated earlier, the only gain from adding grind to your games is to milk out the players' subscription fees as much as they can. It's "understandable" in p2p MMO's because it's an effective way to make more money.

The most obvious reasoning for this "cap" on the number of skills you can bring is easily compensated by the near hundreds of other variables that can take place in a real-time battlefield, something M:TG doesn't have to take into consideration.

id like to see a higher level cap, dont mind which, but i get no sense of accomplishment for getting to level 20. once im there, thats it, done. everything in the game you need to be level 20 pretty much.

in GW2 id like to see maybe a level 50 skill cap, with various things opening up as you progress, dungeons, armour etc

lol, my "skill over happy finger" comment was not stupid. In a game like WoW, ppl find the most effective WAY (singular) to hit your skils for a mage, and whoever hits first wins in a dual. And you are right, the skill required has gone down. But still the game IS "skill over happy finger"

And did I say PvP was the selling point? Nope, I didnt. So now you are just ranting about what I did not even say to try to prove your point.

Lets get back to what this thread is about please. It WAS going well...
Dont want it to get closed.

Thanks

GW has changed a great deal from when it first came out. At its release point most people were only lvl 15-18 when they reached the desert and ascended.

In fact none of Prophicies required you to be lvl 20, even FoW or UW were accessable to characters of lower levels.

Later on they added the need to be ascended and lvl 20 to enter Elite Zones. Most games of this nature seam to use the level system as a means of limiting the players access to content. ei. you must be lvl X in order to use certain weapons or open certain doors.

That is one aspect of leveling that I wouldn't object to seeing in GW2, as long as its done correctly. It would have been much nicer if they had restricted entry into Droknar's Forge to level 15+ chars as a means of stopping the run rather than dump a tonne of ubber foes along the route.

I agree with that and always have said something should have been done by level about being able to wear max gear from Droks. Level 16+ would have been my choice since people were also doing the run to Droks when they got to Yaks bend pvp arena. But that's another discussion and arguement. Even in Nightfall they still allow the damn bypassing of the armor content and you can get a lift to the docks to get your max level armor at level 1 or 2 in Kamadan. The only chapter that helped to prevent this was Factions which had the gate locks to just about every extention of the game you had to do before you could move onto the next part of the story or area. I would like to see that come back myself. By letting all these players bypass the content to max gear it takes away from the resources that could have been sold to players to buy their mid game/level gear around Lions Arch and Maguuma Jungle area and also force them to fight those areas/missions with the armor/gear designed for those levels/areas. Most people could plow through the early missions from Ascalon to Maguuma Jungle and even to the desert area with little or no challenge at all wearing their droks armor and having elite skills from the surrounding area before they should have.

For me that will be another reason to buy or not to buy GW2. If they allow running through the content as they have in Prophecies and Nightfall I'm just not going to buy it because if pretty much forces everyone to run the content if they want to stay up with everyone in the loot and value content of the game. If I don't run it an others do they will be to the high end content long before i will and be farming and making more profits off of it long before I will as well. By the time I get there everything will have flooded the market and my drops will be worthless.

I would rather have Armor limited by a players level than locked doors all over the place as exploring is a big plus for me when it comes to enjoying the game.

yes exploring is the best part of the game i love it
but i fear that its looked on as grind bye a lot of players these days

GW's model isn't groundbreaking in a MMO sense, but it is groundbreaking in a PvP MMO sense. You can't compare Mario to any MMO, but the fact of the matter is EVERY MMO from here on out has to be compared to WoW or EQ whether anybody likes it or not.

You see this is what is so ridiculous to me about the entire thing. PvP is what made Guild Wars unique as you stated (and the level system went along with that). The fact that thread even exists is an indicator that people want the entire Guild Wars franchise to be something its not. It is almost as if people bought the game expecting one thing, got something else, and now want it to be that something else they were expecting but with no monthly fees instead.

Guild Wars started as a game where level meant NOTHING (particularly because of PvP), and that was one of the major points of the game. Now it seems as if people want a completely new level system to make it more like one of those other MMOs. They want what a P2P game has without actually having to P2P, instead of wanting Guild Wars for what it is.

I agree with you about DLDU being dumb, but YOU are missing the point here. Personally I think "people like and want it" is stupid too, but the fact of the matter is MOST PEOPLE DON'T CARE. They just want to have fun, they don't give a damn about balance.

Think about it...DLDU is probably the most common argument in any thread dealing with overpowered crap, because the majority just don't give a crap. It doesn't affect them in the slightest. Balance issues have always been pushed by the minority (usually the hardcores or PvP players) in any game ever made.

I think you underestimate how much many people really enjoy grind. We say grind as if it is a bad thing, and to some people it is. But a surprising number of people are willing to put a LOT of time into it to achieve something. Why do you think all these people are PAYING for P2P grind games? Do you think they are just giving their money out of generousity?

Which leads to my point that Anet will put this into Guild Wars 2 if that is what the majority wants. They want the majority buying the expansions, and giving them what they want is the way to do it, even if that is grind.

Yea...it was going well until you entered it and started trolling.

Actually I think people want Guild Wars to be more like normal RPGs, that just so happens to have the online part mandatory. My warrior hit level 20 in the Southern Shiverpeaks 34 months ago, since then I have gotten all the protector titles, made some progress on Guardian titles, got all elite skills, did a whole lot of Faction farming for all the faction titles in every many possible, and he has over six million experience from it all, and he is still level twenty, and he still has to have h/h with him in the Maguuma Jungle. If this was a normal RPG, those guys in the jungle would still be their same level, I would probably be level seventy or eighty or something, and I could just wander through the jungle enjoying the place by myself instead of having to get h/h and fight every mob or else I die.

I also believe a cap of 50 would be perfect, I've played this game for a long time, at first 20 was fine but after 2 or more chars I found that 20 came too fast and too easy.

Official Guild Wars website, GW2 FAQ:

"How will character progression work? Will you be raising the level cap?

Guild Wars 2 will have the kind of extensive character advancement appropriate to a persistent world RPG. It is our priority to avoid forcing players into the grind-based gameplay that too often accompanies a high level cap...

...Players will be able to engage in organized, balanced PvP (similar to GvG in the original Guild Wars) without needing to first level up characters, find equipment, or unlock skills. While inside the organized PvP area, all characters will be the same power level and will have access to the same equipment."

Nothing else to say.

You left out something. And actually, this does not answer at all if there will be a cap or how many levels there will be.

Now we can speculate what "appropriate" means...^^

http://www.guildwars.com/products/guildwars2/gw2faq/

"Also, to allow players the freedom to play together even if their friends are at a much higher (or lower) level, we are planning to implement a strong sidekicking system, similar to that used in City of Heroes."

The sidekick system hints at levels being important, and quite a lot of levels and not just max level 20 after 2 days.

You're reading the wrong sentence, the second one is important. And as I've said, it makes no difference whether there's level cap 20 or 100 as long as there is no grinding for level.

There have been people like this since day one, and quite honestly I don't care if ANet caters to them under the one condition that the core of the game remains intact.

Examples? Allow mounts but keep fast-travel. Allow higher levels but still make the numbers and stats meaningless (well on their way with this already with sidekicking). Whether or not one has faith in them doing this is not part of the discussion.

Not only that but this thread simply asked what others would like the level cap to be. Few have been talking about a drastically changed system.

I only brought up the comparison to show how retarded it is to pull a 180 and say something horribly subjective with little basis, but you do have a point. Unfortunately it doesn't apply here.

Ursan wouldn't be as big as a problem as *mandatory grind* (please emphasize if this is not what you're talking about) would be because UB only concerns itself with those whom 1. have access to GWEN, 2. have access to the harder content of the game. You are absolutely right when you say the majority doesn't care (you'd actually be quoting me there) when it's something that only applies to a minor few.

But mandatory grind is entirely different. It's not an optional choice in play, it's something you are going to hit should you wish to progress any further in the game ("to play or not play" is not, as a dev, something you want your players to be asking very much). It's why it's such a problem in WoW through levels 40-60: it is simply the grindiest and most boring leveling bracket, hence why it sees the least amount of population.

lol we don't play for the grind, we play through the grind because it's worth it for all of the content. Not to mention that the monthly fee brings along many many other benefits (GMs, frequent updates, more endgame, etc.)

I think that if the majority in WoW wanted things so grindy we wouldn't have seen such a drastic decrease in the leveling process.

Any change to the level system is a drastic change. Probably the major unique part of Guild Wars was the fact that levels meant nothing.

I don't think Ursan was bad for any grind based reasons. People used Ursan whether they were in harder content areas or not. I think it was bad because it was stupidly overpowered and thats it. They could put it back in Guild Wars 2, and most people still wouldn't care.

This is faulty logic to me. If people don't play for the grind, then why are people playing games that have a lot of grind...particularly P2P? Why would the devs put all this grind in their games...even in non P2P games? To some people, the grind is part of the content.

But this is beside the point. The point is that Guild Wars was built on a no grind no level skill system, and look what happened to it over the years. It has turned into a high grind game (particularly for titles) with people wanting a higher level system. Talk about progression.

ive played 36 other mmo's and quit them because they were a grind. Finally I stumbled on to guild wars, it all about showing your skills as an achievement, not level. So 20-40 would be good, I mean Unlimited? So the counters would just go on and on? Thats kind of retarded because players will then start competing with each other to see who can reach the highest level, always grinding grinding and grinding. No one wants that. SO I say 20-40 no more than 40.

126 - oldschool runescape had it right

I've got a crazy idea: make the cap 10. If people like 20 because it's quick to attain, then 10 is twice as good as 20.

With titles and all that, you don't really need a high level cap.

i.e. it's entirely impossible to increase the level number and still have it mean nothing.

...

Increasing the level cap could very well mean - holy shit! - increasing the level cap. It does not mean they won't change anything else. It does not mean they won't decrease character growth to make it as normalized as it was in GW1. The only thing we know is the number next to your character name will be bigger. Absolutely nothing else.

*yawn* Yes, we've been over this. UB - as bad as it was - was not as catastrophic as most made it out to be because it concerned itself only with a percentage of the population.

Grind is entirely different: It concerns itself with 100% of the game population.

Easy money for the developer. Welcome to MMO's, dude.. The more grind there is the longer you play the game. The longer you play the game the longer you are subscribed. Blizzard found out that a lot of people simply said "screw that I'm done", hence why there is far less grind. Overall, though, I think the fact that Blizzard made WoW feel a whole lot less drawn out kinda speaks for itself - that if ANet went and said "hay guyz most peeps want grind LOLS" that things would go in the shitter real fast.

In regards to those free MMO's, I'd suggest to see where Lineage I & II are most popular.

If a small portion of the entire playerbase enjoys a certain activity, it obviously means the rest of the playerbase will enjoy said activity.......no.

Its entirely possible, but that isn't what many people here are talking about and wanting. When people talk about increasing the level cap, they mean making it harder and longer to attain that cap. They mean making levels mean something, as opposed to meaning nothing as they do now.

I don't think this is the case. To me it WAS as catastrophic as it was made out to be. The problem is that most people didn't realize it or even care if they did realize it.

You are making my points for me. Blizzard is still wrestling with exactly how much grind their game should have, but they still know it has to be on the high end of things because of P2P and because the players continue to pay for it. The problem Anet found is that their game originally didn't have enough grind...it actually had almost none at all. Then they found out that the majority disliked this (!), so they added more grind in the form of titles and HoM and other such nonsense, and the majority liked it (!). Anet realized that they added too much grind in some places, so they lessened it some (just enough to get people off their back for a little), but it is still far more grind than the game began with.

Now for Guild Wars 2 the majority is asking for EVEN more grind. They don't want to admit this, but it is a fact. If you say increase the level cap, or change the level system, you are just plain asking for more grind, because any system that is different from the current leveling system is more grind. Any rebuttal saying "I want a higher level cap but I want to still able to max as fast and easy as I did in GW1" is a cop out. Saying you want a higher level cap means saying you want levels to mean more, which almost certainly means more grind to achieve those levels.

And you get this from where? A lot of people have simply stated that they want to see simply a higher level cap. They haven't given reasons.

Mhm.

Wall of text invalidated by a few things:
1. You keep on saying "the majority liekz it" when you don't have a single clue what the majority wants (in fact you'll likely never know).
2. Not only that but you assume the majority owns GW:EN.
2. You don't know if the majority likes it for the same reasons you blatantly assume.
3. You continue to assume people who play P2P games want and looooooove the grind (see: pre-BC PvP rewards, leveling decreases, badge gear, etc).
4. High levels do not automatically = GRIND. Ex: Oblivion.
5. Above all else, you're comparing optional (not to mention GW's only thing even marginally close to endg-game PvE content) to mandatory grind.

Realize and invalidate these things and 'gratz cookies for u! Until then, I'm going to assume most of this was pulled out the ass.

And have you thought about the reasons WHY they want a higher level cap? Or perhaps they just want to see a bigger number with no other differences to the gameplay?

Of course the majority likes it. Do you think Blizzard would add grind to their game if people didn't want to play it? Oh I know you'll respond with "thats just a P2P trick". Fine. Then why has Anet added more grind to THEIR game? Perhaps they spent all that time and effort because of the minority? Of course not...they added it because they wanted the most people possible to buy Guild Wars 2.

No, but Anet is catering to these people who they know are more willing to buy expansions.

See above.

Not love, but are ready and willing to play. There are a few that love though believe it or not.

So what does it mean? Saying you want the level cap to be 10000 is irrelevent unless you are talking about how much time is required and what in game methods are used to attain it. I could say I want level 9999999 and say it takes the same time as lv20 in Guild Wars and I would look stupid. You think all the people who want higher level caps just want levels to be as worthless as they are in Guild Wars 1?

I posted this earlier, but to me there is no difference. Grind is grind. Anet has found that people enjoy title grinding, so it will return. In fact, it is much more likely now that Anet found people enjoy it that it will reappear in the main game of Guild Wars 2. Of course that is speculation...but what is not speculation is that all these suggestions of increasing or changing the level cap is a way of increasing grind because the current level system is zero grind. There is no way around that fact.

*tips hat*

Dreamwind and Bryant are wrong most of the time, but, in this case Dreamwind is correct. Grind is here to stay, it will be in GW2, there will be a much higher level cap with a much higher skill and power system. There will be a persistant world so there will be gnawing and gnashing of teeth when people try or do kill steal other peoples spawns and there will be open pvp of some sort somewhere in the game cause it's been said there is going to be an open pvp system where everyone can participate at any level. Of course there will be organized pvp as well. There will be higher levels of soloing in GW2 as opposed to gimmick build soloing in GW1 now. There won't be 7 heroes or even 3 heroes it looks like as all that has been said is a sidekick or something of that nature you can bring on your adventures or you can leave it and get your solo self buffed up more. So, sounds like GW2 is really going to be even more of an offline rpg game that you play online as a soloist and you won't have to group for anything unless you feel like it and have the rank and the skills and the levels (as elitists will form and make it so) just like you do now in GW1. Can hardly wait.

guys lets just agree that every thing other than going from a to b can and is looked on as grind bye the lazy.

They don't have it any more omg!?!?! Agreed, would be epic.

I think you just described Heroes Ascent. For the longest time we didn't know what the top title was because it was so high, and yet people say they love this game because of the pvp and don't want it to continue turning into a pve game.