Cry of Pain/Ray of Judgment

/signed for both,
no scatter for [ray of judgment] is ridiculous, the AB and JQ npcs just sit there like "duh AoE damage and burning i think i'll stay in it"
mostly /signed for the 1...3...5 foes in area for [cry of pain]

Tbh, RoJ is an elite skill! It causes scatter as soon as you cast it twice because you've been in their aggro range for too long (and if you don't cast it twice/member then you're doing something wrong and need to improve your team-build). That's why the tanks have grasping earth! It also takes up your ELITE skill. It is a bit overpowered in PvP areas as it does 40+14(burning) armor ignoring AoE damage every second, but it's far from over-powered. The fact that people are running it with shutdown such as "Tease-Gwen's" and the like is what's making it over-powered... Synergy people, SYNERGY! People combine skills on the same team build for a reason! So other than maybe increasing the recharge by about 10 seconds for a PvP-only version, I can't see anything that's wrong with RoJ atm...
/unsigned for RoJ nerf, long live the lazers


For CoP, I've seen a lot of posts saying how it's as simple as "1,2,3 profit".
To be honest, any number of things can hinder your spike:
Your tank or tanks making a single mistake = finished
Not taking a quest at the proper time = done
Drawing un-necessary aggro or spending too long spiking = aggro + wipe

You actually need experienced people who know what they're doing to complete and "breeze through" these elite areas. (Trust me, it's not easy breezy). If you actually had an idea of how much stress one of these tanks are going through, if your HB doenst infuse 5 times in 4 seconds or you put spirits in the wrong place, 1 person doesn't cry, you wipe, your whole party dies, and it's game over. No rewards for you.

Now... with Ursan Blessing... you can (could have done) do anything you want! Just run up into a mob with your 110+ armor and 900+ hp and spam all your insanely powerful attack skills and knocklock with no effort whatsoever. It requires no co-ordination, and you don't even need to know where you're going or what you're doing, you just mass-wipe everything with insane amounts of damage and knock-downs. This was all fine and dandy until A-Net realized that people were only taking warriors as Ursans because of their insane base armor, signet of stamina, and ability to take mantras, etc... A-Net didn't like the fact that only Warriors were being taken as Ursans, so now Ursan blessing functions the same for every class.
With Cry of Pain being a PvE-Only skill, anyone can use it; there's no profession discrimination. You don't have groups of "7+warriors with 1 HB monk and every single other profession is useless" teams running around, you actually form groups of eles, mesmers (which are FINALLY seeing some use in PvE), necros, dervishes, sins, monks, rangers, etc.. Anything that has enough energy to echo and hit CoP twice (hell even paragons can do it) is being accepted into these groups, because they don't need to re-make and spend time grinding a new character just to get into 1 farm team!
/Unsigned for CoP nerf, it's fine the way it is.

I think Cry of Pain should be changed to this:
If target foe is hexed, interrupt target foe. If target foe was using a spell all foes in the area take 100 damage.

Ok I'm going to be honest, I really like Ray of Judgment as it is now. At the same time I realise you people got a point.

With much pain in the heart I /sign. (would appreciate if it would stay untouched in pve though)

Beautiful songs don't last long. Still have some vanquishing to do, so I hope I can drag myself in there and get over with it before the nerf arrives.

And they readily move out of [Savannah Heat]? To be honest, if it's about NPCs/heroes not moving to avoid damage, then we need a complete change in the AI.

If RoJ is really highly overpowered in PvP, lower the damage, increase recharge, or burning on each "pulse" change to first or last pulse. Whatever it is, this should be a PvP/PvE split skill. Fixing scatter is one thing, nerfing the skill itself is another.

As for CoP, it's really no more substantial than any other coordinated team spike/pressure has ever been.

Overall, /notsigned

just play the game and stop QQ'ing about skills?

/flameshield

I agree with the above. It does 40...100 *FC spec* damage on a single enemy, but if it removes a hex it does 30...100 *FC spec* damage in an adjacent radius. Removes 1...3 *title spec* enchantment from all nearby foes.

Just play the game and stop "QQing" about people "QQing" about skills? This is a place for discussing suggestions, not "stop changing shit".

/signed for RoJ causing the normal amount of scatter, though I must admit...the way it is now makes Smiting...dare I say it...FUN!

/not signed for CoP. People just want to complain about the newest team build. If CoP was nerfed, all the QQers would just move on the the next team build that emerges.

Once again...

If there was a skill that killed everything in the entire map which was 1 energy, 1 recharge and 1/4 cast, would you say the same thing? People would move onto something powerful, but no spike is even half as powerful as a CoP spike.

I do, however find it ironic that you support a nerf for RoJ, which is a lot weaker than CoP in terms of dealing damage when used by more than one person.

Would just like to quickly point out that the Deep isn't the best of testing sites; especially considering the time completion differences of a 'normal' group and what we consider a 'gimmick' group is minimal. Testing what is OP and what is not should be done in an environment where the difference between the 2 times of a 'balanced' group and 'cry' group are significant (i.e. Urgoz, FoW).

Regardless, making RoJ cause scatter seems to be the best route for a fix. As far as CoP goes I don't have much of an opinion on what the best way to change it would be.

No. if there was a skill like that, I would not say the same thing. Good thing that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, and there are no skills like that, huh?

I "support" the nerf to RoJ because it's only natural that an AoE spell should cause scattering. Doesn't really take much thinking to figure that out, lol. It's a glitch or oversight in the mechanics, that is causing its "problem". ^^

The CoP whining, on the other hand, is a bit different. It gives me the feeling that people cry about things like these just to have something to whine about (whatever seems to be the most powerful skill/build atm). Which is why I didn't sign this part (and I have the right not to. No real reason to argue with me about it, honestly.) There, I explained my reasoning (even though I didn't have to). And just to make sure things are clear, when I said "all the QQers would move on to the next thing that emerges", I meant the complainers...whatever is next in line as most powerful would be next to be targetted with "oh muh gawd...2 strong, KILL IT!". But whatever floats everyone's boat. I'll just restate what I said and go back to playing, WITHOUT worrying about how others play. ^^ "RoJ = signed. CoP = Not Signed."

I never used "cryway", in case you have that in your head for some reason, lol. I use the skill on my mesmer, to do normal PvE with heros/hench.

To put it simply, and to avoid any other wild assumptions, I'll put it this way. If AoE wasn't SUPPOSED to cause scattering, I wouldn't /sign a nerf for either of them.

I'm arguing with your disagreement and its reasoning - think about it, no game will be perfectly balanced and there will always be flaws in the concept of balance. As long as there are multiple variables, there will be inbalance, but with one variable being a lot higher in power than the rest, it's incredibly inbalanced compared to the rest - skill level required to do this is also something to look at.



The main power of Cry of Pain is that its a single skill causing a lot of armour ignoring damage wit a short recharge, low skill slot requirement and the low energy requirement for the performance. Multiply this and you've got trouble. I'm not assuming anything, I'm agreeing to a nerf because in one field of usage, it's stupid powerful. RoJ is also another incredibly powerful skill, but lesser in terms of dealing damage compared to CoP - if you feel the way you do, why not just support a buff to all AoE removing the AI's ability to move out and kite?

My Version of these skills:

CoP: For each mesmer hex on target foe, one additional foe is struck.

RoJ: As already stated, add scatter effect.

/notsigned for either for a few reasons:
1. the game is ending soon; it's obviously dying and people wanna get rich and farm some money to finish up their HoM's. Why the hell must people must constantly complain about an economy and broken skills in PVE when it doesn't hurt the people not using the skill. Hopefully GW2 will fix these problems

2. There's going to be another build made then. People thought nerfing ursan was the end of SC PVE until someone found out a new way to easily 1/2 the time of most SC's with CoP. Who's to say a faster build won't come out eventually?

3. Why not nerf everything in PVE that allows us to be faster...Nerf cons, nerf physicalway, nerf orders, nerf critical sins, eliminate all PVE skills, eliminate anything that changed this game from prophecies. Make no elite area completable within 3 hours and watch the population drop....and then we wait 2 years when GW2 comes out and see within a few months its in the clearance section of Wal-Mart because frankly no one will care about the game anymore.

/sign the 1..3..5 effect for CoP, it would make it still as effective in normal PvE play, but not in Cryway.

Umm there's a very simple fix for Cry of Pain that makes much more sense rather than restricting it to a certain number of foes...

Make the damage occur only when you interrupt a skill.

Bye-bye to 1-2-3 spikes...


Also /signed for RoJ scatter. Although I can see groups circumventing this easily by throwing Churning Earth into the mob. But meh, that's still better than what we have right now.

These are my thoughts as well. If you make CoP 'eat' the feeder hex, this means it's still available for one or two Mesmers in a balanced group to provide some reliable damage assist. However, it would make the multi-person-echo-spike more difficult to pull off - the standard 5-person cryway team would need to either hit a different target each (and even then you'd need two AoE mesmer hexes at minimum) or stack 10 hexes on the spike target... and I don't think there are that many cheap, fast-casting Mesmer feeder hexes in the game.

And this is the other side of what I was going to say. Making targets move out of RoJ when they don't move out of other AoEDoTs seems a little strange. Personally, I'd be inclined to make NPCs in PvP scatter under any AOE effect that does more than a certain amount of damage in a single pulse.

For general use... I do note that RoJ is significantly more effective than similar skills even given its elite nature (~40 damage/pulse plus burning cf ~25 damage/pulse for the likes of Symbol of Wrath and Balthazar's Aura). This might indicate that it could afford a paring back of the pulsed damage.

nerfstick awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

/signed

QFT. Why the double standard, y'all?

/notsigned

cry of pain is only overpowered when used as some mass spike, on a single mesmer its good, but not omgwtfbbq good. probably the best skill on a mesmers bar, but then mesmer skills/class are weaker in pve than most.

no more tastey than critical agility

Nah...its probably just because its not that popular at the moment. The moment CoP/RoJ get whacked (hopefully not) a new bandwagon will come in for all the elitists to jump on. And then they'll keep going down the list of PvE only skills and the better normal skills trying to make everyone play "balanced"...

If they stand in SH and Maelstrom, why shouldn't they stand in RoJ? Not only does it deal damage, it's way prettier.

/notsigned for both

I honestly think the lack of scatter for [[Ray of Judgment] was an oversight. Compare it to [[Balthazar's Aura], [[Symbol of Wrath]/[[Kirin's Wrath]. I fully expect to see "Fixed bug with AI and RoJ" or some such in a future update. Anyone who says RoJ should not cause scatter must also want all scatter removed again, just like the game was back in '05.

Basically, anyone defending it's current form is asking for a double standard, or wants scatter to be reverted altogether.

lol [[Cry of Pain]

Ok, before I start my comments on RoJ and CoP first something about this one.

Look at the state of the elite areas before those gimmic builds.
FoW, UW, Deep, Urgoz's and DoA were only accessible by guild teams or specific team builds. There was no crowd there because people could not play there without either a guild or a profession with the wanted profession and build.
And remember, the PuG builds didn't involve too many thinking from most members. Kinda like 123. Why? Because that would mean failure, PuG builds are made to be fail-safe.
Only a few roles were critical. In Deep you need an experienced tank to aggro and KD, the rest is doable. I played Urgoz's as only experienced player, think we could have finished by reading wiki. FoW is easy as long as one player knows the quests and the rest listens, same for UW as long as the team can split. DoA needs only one or two experienced players in the old Kaiz' build. The rest is hardly more than pressing 123, even more retarted if you look at the BiP involved in some of the teams.
So elite areas with PuGs would mean playing some kind of 123 game.

Next to the skills.
Adding shatter to RoJ is kind of obvious, but hey, it's an elite.
And the shatter is easily solved by adding some ele spells in the team.
In competitive arenas RoJ could be somewhat of a problem, but you know it's going to be played, so just counter it. It's not that hard.
So adding shatter doesn't change anything in my opinion.

Next CoP.
It's been argued over and over again.
My solution is easy. Keep it the way it is but make the skill remove one mesmer hex from each target that took damage from by CoP.
If you want to take 5 cryers in the team, you need to bring 5 different AoE mesmer hexes and stack those before unleasing CoP. Would make it somewhat less 123 while still very playable with some coordination.
Linking it to Fast Casting sounds like a nice solution but would not really change much. People would just bring a mesmer to farm instead of some other character.

Or, let's say both skills are completely nerfed.
No more 123 crowds in elite areas. Yay for not being able to play those areas as PuG again. I don't care, I play then with guild anyway. But others might not be so lucky and just shouting that they should find another guild is not fair. For example, for over a year I was in a guild with real life friends and it was not easy to team up with them for elite areas (two of them live in the US, several others and I live in Europe). Find another guild and abandon real life friends just because I can't play elite areas without a guild?
Sound kinda harsh to be honest....

It seems people don't understand why [[Ursan blessing] was different from the [[CoP].

All you need for Ursan was ursans (with good levels of grinding) and some [[healer's boon]+[[heal party].

No build required, no professions required other than monk, no counters to ursan strike, aoe knockdown touch skill!!!!!, grinding required.

Those full HM DoA runs still take con sets, other consumables, tanks and what not. Nerf them if you want, but who cares what happens in places that have permanent 50% chance to miss attacks anyway?!?!?!? What the hell is that?!?!

RoJ just needs scatter nothing more, I like that smiters don't absolutely suck now. But I vanquished several areas i elona with a monk + heroes that weren't even properly runed yet :P. Now that's a little bit too much.

Just don't destroy the skill.

n.3 leave the skill as it is, but scale damage:
damage done is 25...50hp + 10hp for each 2 points in the Fast Casting attribute.

(much like TNTF)

Similar threads about CoP exist already in Sardelac.
One is about PvE skills (It is in the first page of Sardelac atm):
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10351072

while CoP is already discussed here in the thread "About Cry Of Pain"
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10343934

people never understand that


- asking for a nerf to what they don't want to play will not make pugs turn into what they want them to be


- it's totally arrogant to think they are smarter than the average pve crowd and the nerfs they're asking for will enlighten the stupid masses


- if you were less lazy, you'd find a decent pve guild and play the way you like without ever having to worry about what pugs use, as it has absolutely no influence on your game experience


I agree that RoJ should make mobs scatter like any other dotaoe, but I don't care whether they add it

/not signed for both

Agreed.
Stop finding every possible reason to ruin the fun for others.
If a skill is above-par, why nerf it?

"123 ursan builds durfhurf"
Anet actually didn't mind ursan at first. The reason it took so long to nerf is because they were UNSURE. But because 100% groups were running it, and because you were forced to grind to get it to usefulness, that's why it was nerfed.

RoJ and CoP on the other hand, aren't really used much outside of specialized team builds. Most of the time I see people running balanced with imbagon and I only ever find successful cry and ray way teams within my alliance.
Actually play elite areas and look at what groups are being formed before QQing

Do you even understand the reason(s) for nerf(s) or nerf requests?

are you actually serious? You really believe that A-net nerfed Ursan because of the grind that was required???

A-net nerfed Ursan because it was incredibly OP when run as a group, thus enabling you to defeat any area in the game with minimal effort and given that 99% of PUGs were doing nothing but run Ursan.

The "specialized team build" is called Cryway and it is used in every single area it can be used and by PUG as well as alliance or guild groups. (you actually alluded to this yourself in the later sentence)

Running balanced with a PUG??? LMAO I dont think I have seen a PUG running balance since before EOTN even then it was fairly rare as each area had a specific team.


CRYWAY or CRYWAY+RoJ

CoP is abused by 99% of PUGs in all high end areas apart from UW (where they use the UWSC builds one of which is a cryer )

I think you need to actually go into these areas to see what people "play" then you will understand why ppl are asking for these nerfs.


My take on possible Nerfs

RoJ /signed (but...)
IMO RoJ scatter was simply overlooked when the skill was changed (though the Ion cannon effect is nice ) so I am expecting that scatter will be added
as a bug fix


CoP /signed

CoP requires either AoE removal/nerf or a nerf to the damage dealt and the AoE to remain in place (it should be not much higher damage than Cry of Frustration without the attribute tie imo)

The skill clearly cannot continue to deal the damage it does as it is at least as overpowered as Ursan was.

Noone wants to ruin the fun for others, it's just a little awkward that you only NEED one skill to win all areas while there's myriads of skills/builds in the game. If someone would turn my chass into tictactoe there would be screams yes, because I like chess and I hate tictactoe.

Although I never run a full cry team, it appears that u need to have some SF tanks, some hexers, some cops, some monks, some way to kill leftovers.

Still not that hard, but a far cry from no roles need other than heal ursan way.
Ursan way was killed because of the grind needed and the fact it killed profession variety, wasn't because people could do stuff.

On the other hand, must be fun to try to do DoA HM with a balanced team and no consumables with a 50% chance to miss all attacks.

A bit offtopic , but I tried getting a pug for DoA and guess what? Not everyone is asking for cryers , and not everyone is running them. Stop putting things out of proportion.

Also CoP is nowhere near as OP as UB , you didn't need anything else for UB the other skills were just there to fill the spots , and didn't have to watch aggro at all.

And I really like the double standard , CoP is OP but SY! is not. I was in a pug with an imbagon and a sin aggroed 4 groups of torment creatures and we kill them with only the sin dead because he was out of earshot range. And more info , we had no prot monks, only a HB monk and a N/Rt hero. Not overpowered at all!

hey, just because this thread is about CoP/RoJ it doesn't mean SY! isn't overpowered... If you want to suggest a nerf for it, feel free to make new thread about it.

I'm doubting a little anyways. Sure, PvE skills are overpowered, but when I look at the way HM was implemented it kinda makes sense. HM is ALSO overpowered :P. I wouldn't mind that pve skills get toned down a little bit (Kostolomac has a point about SY :P), but when you sometimes see the sick SPLUT damage certain monsters do.....lol

It's only that some players like to play tic-tac-toe on a chess board with pawns only. It's a limited game, but kids enjoy it. But the board is larger and you can add kings, queens, towers and the like. It makes the game more difficult, something many kids don't like. And to be honest, when I play chess I don't like to do that with or against those who can only play tic-tac-toe. It's no fun. So leave them with their tic-tac-toe so that they don't annoy me when I play chess.

I do like the skills changed but not for a silly 'there are numerous skills available' reason. That's limited to closed groups, PuGs don't know numerous skills, they only know fixed builds that 'work' (well, get the job done somehow). Say goodbye to 95% of the available skills and 30-50% of the available professions.

notsigned

PvE monsters are already raping my ass with [giant stomp] and other monster skills.
First people QQ about some proffessions not being viable in certain areas and we got ursan.
Then more QQ'ing started and ursan got nerfed. Then copway was invented and once again certain less used proff's were viable again and now you're QQ'ing again about being imba.

Monks finally got something to make them used in PvE next to being a healing machine (don't u get bored of healing after all that time?) and now they have roj so they can be used in an offensive way now. Srsly gtfo

there are more imba skills that need to be nerfed like [peace and harmony]

edit: just made some calculations
at 16 smite [ray of judgment] is good for around 338 damage
at 16 fire magic [savannah heat] packs 315 fire damage
compare recharge and energy cost and you'll pretty much know where this is going to
RoJ = SH for monks with a shiney animation

Also note that SH allows you to take Teinai's Heat, Searing Heat, etc... while RoJ allows you no extra AoE damage on your bar.

exactly
so RoJ is actually fine as it is because it doesn't come close to the hard nuking of a SH ele

Apart from the CoP ofc which is guaranteed to be there, why use one OP skill when you can use 2 or 3 if you mimic or arcane echo it