After logging in extremely briefly to test something, I need to eat my words from an earlier thread. In the thread (which I can't find), I argued that a good monk is better than a good E/Mo infuser with [ether renewal]. I have to retract that, based upon the fact that with [mindbender], Eles can infinitely powerheal for 500+ with no problems.
There's no need to pre-prot, or prot at all for that matter when you literally, just powerheal anything that takes damage. Went on an urgoz run, taking 2 eles instead of 3 monks, and it was painfully easy. Next urgoz run used 1 ele - challenging, had about 3 deaths, but still, that shouldn't be allowed to happen.
Question is, why hasn't this caught on?
Ether Renewal healers - the death of true monking
Snow Bunny
Winterclaw
Because heroes can't run mindbender? Or maybe because ER doesn't last that long so most people wouldn't think about it.
I suppose it will eventually.
I suppose it will eventually.
Zodiac Meteor
Ele infuser? You mean this? A way to spam infuse
It's my favorite build. Enchant removal = DEATH
It's my favorite build. Enchant removal = DEATH
IronSheik
Yeah...the best reason, ER gets removed, you gotta rely on that 80 energy to keep up the team until ER recharges.
Squishy ftw
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Originally Posted by Snow Bunny
Question is, why hasn't this caught on?
Because monks look cuter.
And I don't know about others but I sure prefer (pre)-protting and everything that comes along with it on a monk over just mindlessly spamming some heal all day long on a character that has better, less gimmicky stuff to do.
Jeydra
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10317939
That's the thread you want. My feelings on ER healers haven't changed much, although why are you running Mindbender when the bar is so compressed already and the only skill that takes longer than 1/4 second to cast is ER itself?
ER healers have weaknesses, and they are glaring. If you end up in situations where everyone takes damage at the same time (eg. Wurm Bile @ Frostmaw's, some people mistakenly standing together and eating an Elementalist boss'es Rodgort's Invocation) then you are weak. Sure you can powerheal with Infuse every 2 seconds, but you can't cope with massive party degen, and every consecutive Infuse is weaker. You need to refresh ER every 20 seconds, which is about 2 seconds of time when you can't heal - plenty of time for someone to die. Losing ER has immediate effects on your bar; you won't be completely incapacitated but you have to react fast and play conservatively. Finally, you lack anti-conditions and anti-hexes. Not always bad, but when your team's Warrior gets Blinded you will regret it.
ER-based healing encourages bad Monking, but there's no such thing as not protting and relying on Infuse in HM. You will die, monsters simply deal too much damage.
By the way nice of you to retract your earlier claims, the original thread pretty much killed my opinion of [TAM].
That's the thread you want. My feelings on ER healers haven't changed much, although why are you running Mindbender when the bar is so compressed already and the only skill that takes longer than 1/4 second to cast is ER itself?
ER healers have weaknesses, and they are glaring. If you end up in situations where everyone takes damage at the same time (eg. Wurm Bile @ Frostmaw's, some people mistakenly standing together and eating an Elementalist boss'es Rodgort's Invocation) then you are weak. Sure you can powerheal with Infuse every 2 seconds, but you can't cope with massive party degen, and every consecutive Infuse is weaker. You need to refresh ER every 20 seconds, which is about 2 seconds of time when you can't heal - plenty of time for someone to die. Losing ER has immediate effects on your bar; you won't be completely incapacitated but you have to react fast and play conservatively. Finally, you lack anti-conditions and anti-hexes. Not always bad, but when your team's Warrior gets Blinded you will regret it.
ER-based healing encourages bad Monking, but there's no such thing as not protting and relying on Infuse in HM. You will die, monsters simply deal too much damage.
By the way nice of you to retract your earlier claims, the original thread pretty much killed my opinion of [TAM].
FoxBat
Hex removal doesn't keep AP away from people's bars either (even though it sometimes really should.)
That period you have to glyphsac->ether is also a (small) window for bad stuff to happen. Part of the reasoning why people aren't doing GoR->Divine/Selfless Spirit and spamming patient+prots all day long.
But yeah, ER healing is still underrated, the raw power is nuts even accounting for frailties. Probably a fair number of people that think PvP teaches you everything you need to know about PvE, that physical-based builds are still faster than a well-run cryway, etc. If the PvP version of ER was removed you'd certainly see it abused to high hell.
That period you have to glyphsac->ether is also a (small) window for bad stuff to happen. Part of the reasoning why people aren't doing GoR->Divine/Selfless Spirit and spamming patient+prots all day long.
But yeah, ER healing is still underrated, the raw power is nuts even accounting for frailties. Probably a fair number of people that think PvP teaches you everything you need to know about PvE, that physical-based builds are still faster than a well-run cryway, etc. If the PvP version of ER was removed you'd certainly see it abused to high hell.
Ariena Najea
Pure red-bar-goes-up builds are very boring my opinion. Sure you can heal for big numbers, but why make a need for healing such big numbers? Damage mitigation > big heals as far as I'm concerned, protting provides more safety versus spikes and is more reliable.
Also, there are probably better things for Elementalists to be doing, with the exception of those pesky missions or areas where you need to babysit an NPC, such as anything with Master Togo xD. Even in HM, with the right build an Ele can do a good deal of damage, or provide a great amount of utility!
Also, there are probably better things for Elementalists to be doing, with the exception of those pesky missions or areas where you need to babysit an NPC, such as anything with Master Togo xD. Even in HM, with the right build an Ele can do a good deal of damage, or provide a great amount of utility!
Ranger of the abyss
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
This quote is a clear example of inexperience with regards to the ER build.
everybody is open to opinions however, every good monk in their right mind knows that prot is the key to good monking not red bar builds.A good WoH hybrid who is interrupted is still more potent than an ER ele who has been interrupted
Div
I ran ER healer ele quite a bit when I still PvE'ed on my ele, and it was retardedly good.
Even without running any PvE-only skills or dumb infinite-infuse chains, sticking ER+AoR with 6 monk skills felt stronger (in terms of e-management) than a monk with gole+sig rejuv or something. The only downside is that you have to actively cast more (since each heal/prot is slightly less effective than from a monk), and also if ER gets stripped, all you're left with is to troll lemming.
Even without running any PvE-only skills or dumb infinite-infuse chains, sticking ER+AoR with 6 monk skills felt stronger (in terms of e-management) than a monk with gole+sig rejuv or something. The only downside is that you have to actively cast more (since each heal/prot is slightly less effective than from a monk), and also if ER gets stripped, all you're left with is to troll lemming.
Jeydra
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Originally Posted by traversc
Do you have any idea what the standard ER bars are?
Quote: Originally Posted by Ranger of the abyss
everybody is open to opinions however, every good monk in their right mind knows that prot is the key to good monking not red bar builds.A good WoH hybrid who is interrupted is still more potent than an ER ele who has been interrupted
Anyone who has any idea what ER bars can do know they are decked out with heavy prot, including both Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond, and I dare you to name me a good primary Monk bar that has both of them and can thus fit your 'key to good monking' better.
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Originally Posted by Daesu
2. You need to bring a skill that make ER recharge faster (e.g. Glyph of Swiftness). That leaves only 6 skill slots.
A lot of Monks take Glyph of Lesser Energy and a Resurrect skill (I know not every Monk takes a Res, but a lot still do) - so that only leaves those Monks with 6 "useful" slots.Quote:
The most commonplace PvE Monk elite is Word of Healing. The ability to spam Infuse Health until you pass out kinda bypasses the need for this.|
Originally Posted by holymasamune
I ran ER healer ele quite a bit when I still PvE'ed on my ele, and it was retardedly good.
Even without running any PvE-only skills or dumb infinite-infuse chains, sticking ER+AoR with 6 monk skills felt stronger (in terms of e-management) than a monk with gole+sig rejuv or something. The only downside is that you have to actively cast more (since each heal/prot is slightly less effective than from a monk), and also if ER gets stripped, all you're left with is to troll lemming. Oh yeah Mending is good  ER healers heal more than Monks (Infuse > WoH) but the prots are slightly less effective. Losing ER means you have to drop all maintained enchantments at once, stop using Infuse (unless you have a HB-using teammate who spams Heal Party, then your health loss might be cleaned up by him) and be more conservative with Spirit Bond and Prot Spirit. You'll also need to reserve at least ~30 energy for when ER recharges and you can put it back up. Of course, you can always pick the easy way out and wand as DPS while trolling Lemming ...
legacyofkain85
tbh leave the healing to the monks or the n/rt's,[ether renewal] eles are awesome with prots,spamming [protective spirit],[spirit bond],[shield guardian] and hehe heroe's are good at spaming spirit bond and prot spirit
Tyla
I'd still rather Monk. They've got everything I need and no strong weaknesses such as heavy enchant removal so my opinion remains.
kostolomac
I don't know why , but I feel much safer when I know that someone in my team has at least PS. If ER is stripped the ele can just /dance 'till ER recharges.
Maybe more experienced groups will run an ele healer over the HB healer + the regular prot monk?
Snow Bunny
How much heavy enchant removal do you guys see in general PvE?
I never see Rend, except in UW, and otherwise, it's Chillblains. You could still throw in [protective spirit] to cover yourself, and with a 5sec recharge, you're good. You can even cover yourself with other enchantments. The bar isn't really that compressed, seeing as it's 4 skills to give yourself infinite 500health powerheals, which is substantially stronger than a WoH hybrid. In high-end areas with lots of conditions, damage, and hexes, like FoW/Urgoz, you're going to be spamming your skills anyway simply due to pressure. So why wouldn't you want a practically infallible build? Yes, the build is more boring, but I guess I'm talking about efficiency here. A lot of you missed a crucial point, but whatever. You don't need to preprot at all - unless they can spike 9 guys for 500 each simultaneously, you're fine. You can literally clean up everyone no-problems whatsoever constantly. It takes a bit more active playing, and is more boring, but it's stronger. I have to argue with my ex-guildies here - it's a superior build.
MasterSasori
Go go infuser!
Just don't get stripped or "omg we're screwed." It also lowers your monking abilities. After playing infuser, stick with RA for a while.
Cebe
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Originally Posted by Daesu
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Quote: Originally Posted by Daesu
3. You can't go hybrid because you need to max out energy storage.
I see no problem with having the following:Energy Storage: 11 + 1 + 1Healing Prayers: 11
Protection Prayers: 10There you go, there's your hybrid. Aegis lasts 9 seconds, Protective Spirit is fine at 10 PP, Infuse heals for 126%, you can spam Reverse Hex as much as you like, what's the problem?
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Originally Posted by Daesu
4. You have no divine favor, so DF skills are quite useless to you.
Don't need them.
If the res is that much a handicap during the mission then dont bring it on your monk, but if a res is that useful during the mission then you should also bring it on your ER prot too. I dont see how this is a valid argument around bringing or not bringing a res skill when comparing monks against ER prot.
Yes, 11 Healing, but a quarter second cast, instantly recharging powerheal? It hardly matters a great deal. Picking on a few attribute points here and there isn't a major issue. The fact of the matter remains that (under normal conditions) with ER + Enchantments an Ele can Infuse until their fingers bleed, and still not have to stop.
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Originally Posted by Daesu
That is another second you can add to the 2s GoS+ER time when you can expect the ER prot to not be able to help the team even when someone is about to die. 3s downtime for your healer/prot every 21s is bad enough to be called out.
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Yes, 11 Healing, but a quarter second cast, instantly recharging powerheal? It hardly matters a great deal. Picking on a few attribute points here and there isn't a major issue. The fact of the matter remains that (under normal conditions) with ER + Enchantments an Ele can Infuse until their fingers bleed, and still not have to stop.
I am not saying it is build breaking, but there are weaknesses in the build and just having an ER prot doesn't necessarily imply that your team is invincible. Besides there are down times and it is not worth building an ER hybrid for 11 to healing and only 13 to ES when you can just go max ES, protect and bring infuse.Quote:
So monks bringing a res has 1 less available skill slot when comparing against a ER prot without a res?|
Originally Posted by Daesu
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If the res is that much a handicap during the mission then dont bring it on your monk, but if a res is that useful during the mission then you should also bring it on your ER prot too. I dont see how this is a valid argument around bringing or not bringing a res skill when comparing monks against ER prot.
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1 second down. How dreadful. Perhaps it would be prudent to "time" that 1 second down to coincide with moving between mobs, or as the current mob dies. In extreme situations more "tactical" action may be required I guess, but it's still not as "dire" as you make out I feel.|
I see no problem with having the following:Energy Storage: 11 + 1 + 1 Healing Prayers: 11 Protection Prayers: 10 Then there will be about a 1s break between ER running out and being able to recast it even with GoS and 20% enchant. Also many hybrid monks run 15/14 to healing and 10/11 prot after runes, 11 healing is crappy. Anyway infuse makes putting points to healing unnecessary so it is not worth making a hybrid out of an ER build.
If Party Heals are that much of a necessity, Heal Party heals for more at 11 Healing Prayers than Light of Deliverance does at 13! It has a much shorter recharge, and the energy isn't a concern on an Ether Renewal Ele. The only downside is Heal Party has a 2 second cast versus LoD's 1 second.
Originally Posted by Daesu
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Then there will be about a 1s break between ER running out and being able to recast it even with GoS and 20% enchant. Also many hybrid monks run 15/14 to healing and 10/11 prot after runes, 11 healing is crappy.
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Yes, 11 Healing, but a quarter second cast, instantly recharging powerheal? It hardly matters a great deal. Picking on a few attribute points here and there isn't a major issue. The fact of the matter remains that (under normal conditions) with ER + Enchantments an Ele can Infuse until their fingers bleed, and still not have to stop.
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Enchant removal can be a problem when your last enchantment casted is ER since you need to keep renewing it.
Or you could not run up to monsters shouting "Hi! I have enchantments. Strip me!" Skulking at the back of a group to avoid the first wave of enchantment removal will be fine, or you can cover ER with PS before charging in. ER lasts 21 seconds or so, after 20 seconds most mobs in most areas would have perished.
If enchantment removal really does cripple your entire party - take a Rit.
If enchantment removal really does cripple your entire party - take a Rit.
That 2s downside can be serious when facing interrupters. Also most LoD monks dont run healing at 13. Why should they when they have monk runes and headgear?
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1 second down. How dreadful. Perhaps it would be prudent to "time" that 1 second down to coincide with moving between mobs, or as the current mob dies. In extreme situations more "tactical" action may be required I guess, but it's still not as "dire" as you make out I feel.
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Skulking at the back of a group to avoid the first wave of enchantment removal will be fine, or you can cover ER with PS before charging in. ER lasts 21 seconds or so, after 20 seconds most mobs in most areas would have perished.
It depends on the mob and the rest of the team build wouldn't it? Quote:
Lol I just took a look at the video and, to be honest, your build needs a lot of work. Here's why:
1. Why do you care that you never drop below 50% health? It's nothing special, a simple arbitrary mark. Drop below it if you have to. There's no reason to not run the Superior Vigor rune, and with all the party enchantments you might get on you (Aegis for example) you can't even stay at the 'ideal' 50% health loss. 2. What's with Mending and Watchful Spirit? Neither of them are good. Yeah they give +5 regen, but your prodiguous energy management is better spent on ... maintaining 8 copies of Life Attunement on everyone in your party. You don't need the health regen since you heal so fast so much with Ether Renewal. 3. You have no Prots ... the fight against the Great Destroyer led to a lot of deaths, because even though Infuse spam is great you can't Infuse fast enough. If nothing else you could use Heal Party + Mindbender, or Breath of the Great Dwarf. Maybe you should try one of the standard bars, you'll probably find them a lot more powerful. Quote:
The main reason to have Glyph of Swiftness last two spells is to allow you extra room to move in - for example, if you use Glyph of Swiftness and someone takes serious damage in the meantime, you can now cast Infuse before putting ER up. Once I went from 0 Air to 4 Air (Ensign's original suggestion) and never looked back after. 4 spec in something isn't that hard to get to, and the rewards here are fairly great.
The "standard" bar imo is: [mindbender][heal party][infuse health][protective spirit][great dwarf weapon][glyph of swiftness][ether renewal][aura of restoration] Let's see what you said: although why are you running Mindbender when the bar is so compressed already and the only skill that takes longer than 1/4 second to cast is ER itself? That's wrong, since heal party is a 2 second cast. ER healers have weaknesses, and they are glaring. If you end up in situations where everyone takes damage at the same time (eg. Wurm Bile @ Frostmaw's, some people mistakenly standing together and eating an Elementalist boss'es Rodgort's Invocation) then you are weak. That's wrong, since you spam heal party. Sure you can powerheal with Infuse every 2 seconds, but you can't cope with massive party degen, and every consecutive Infuse is weaker. Wrong, since you can actually spam infuse every ONE second. Oh and also, each consecutive infuse is actually NOT weaker. but there's no such thing as not protting and relying on Infuse in HM. You will die, monsters simply deal too much damage. Yeah, you must prot, that's why you take protective spirit.
Zodiac Meteor
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Originally Posted by traversc
Wrong, since you can actually spam infuse every ONE second. Oh and also, each consecutive infuse is actually NOT weaker.
How fast can you spam infuse? 1/4th second casting, 0 recharge. Set, I can only spam it every 1/2 a second even though I have 2 keys microed to infuse. This build is scary good.
I did Heart of Shiverpeaks with my Ele healer build. I did with with 2 people. 3 RoJway heroes, 1 E-surge player, 2 Searing flames heroes and 1 warrior hero. The RoJway best heal was [[smiters boon] and [[reversal of damage]. The worm went down in one round. The funny thing is, this warrior was also doing the quest looking for people. I pinged him my build and he kicked me. I ranked him and went to get someone else. He got 6 players, I got one. We left at the same time. We finished with 3 deaths. I got a Magmus Staff and the other player got a Embercrest Staff, r9 divine... When I headed back to Eye of the North. The same warrior was spamming "LFP 3/8 HoS." That made my day. I /rank him and logged off. The point is once this catches on, this will happen. Ether Renewal PvE - Benefits only affects Elementalist spells now.
AtomicMew
Daesu
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Originally Posted by traversc
Yeah BotGD works too, but mindbender + heal party is stronger IMO. The amount of healing you get from that combo is inSANE... not that infuse spam isn't already insane lol.
But with BotGD you dont need to put any points into healing and you wont need MindBender. What is your attribute spread like?
Cebe
Daesu
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Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver
Insufe Health is also in Healing Prayers...
I guess you could run a full ER + Protection bar but what would be the point? Infuse Health is special. It works well even with 0 healing prayers. The point of full ER + protection would be max effectiveness/duration for your protection spells and you dont have to renew ER as often (i.e. fewer down time during battle). Jeydra
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Originally Posted by Daesu
ER prot+infuse may make it easier for people to play the role of a decent monk by spamming and over healing, but an experienced monk is still more versatile and better in the long run. Personally I'm of opinion that ER Elementalists can rival and even exceed real Monks, if the area in question is right. @traversc - interesting bar, I'll give it a try whenever. By the way 63 health every 2 seconds is certainly not impressive, although it's better than nothing - have you seen HB Monks casting Heal Party for 2.5 times the health every 2 seconds? No Spirit Bond on that bar is a little jarring, and you only have two spells to spam for energy and health with ... but I'll give it a try once I find a Minor Air rune somewhere. Quote:
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