Update - Thursday, March 5

Agreed. And besides...if ya want the +dmg back dump RtW for Expert Focus and switch back from flatbow to recurve. Works well.

Then let me explain:

1. Players are abusing the hell out of it. Or rather, they're abusing the hell out of monsters not running away from it. With even the slightest amount of talent at balling the monsters (hello permasin!), it's far and away the fastest and easiest way to kill stuff. That's bad because (a) the game should not have a "best" solution like RoJ is right now; (b) it requires zero skill, tactics, strategy, or build design, which has everything wrong with it that ursan did; and (c) no matter how you want to dress it up, it's exploiting a game bug to bypass the challenge that the monster AI is supposed to pose.

2. Heroes and Henchmen die fast and horrible deaths to HM mobs packing multiple copies of RoJ. Try to finish Ragnar's HM with H+H. Bet you don't make it past the first large mob of fleshreaver hounds. Short of flagging the H+H back while you 600/smite them, or perma-farm them, or use some other gimmick that avoids a head-to-head confrontation between the H+H and the hounds, I don't think there is a way past those mobs. Because a head-to-head encounter between the H+H and the hounds always results in all the H+H dying within a few seconds because they won't flee the RoJ. There's a few monk-heavy afflicted mobs in Cantha that pose the same problem.

Thank you.

I think your first point is somewhat harsh, since the use of RoJ isn't quite that cut and dried, but I can't really argue against the basic premise. Nevertheless, it doesn't outshine some of the other powerful builds out there, like discord spam. I don't know if it really ranks with the former power of Ursan, since I never used that before it was nerfed.

I hadn't really considered your second point before. (I haven't even done Menagerie in NM yet.) However, I just finished a vanquish of Sunjiang District with a Discord H&H team. The mobs of afflicted were pretty brutal, and getting the team out of the way of RoJ in time was nearly impossible. I went through a few sweets getting that area done after wiping on the first attempt. (On the plus side, the monks toasted themselves pretty fast if I got Pain Inverter on them in time. Of course, some blasted rit would come along and rez them ... ) So I certainly have to concede this point.

And you're talking about skill in PvE ? I finished Rragar in hard mode with my heroes and henchmen two weeks ago, with some dp, but no consumables... If the hounds manage to cast RoJ on your bots (first mistake), and you can't move them out of there (second mistake), you really should stop asking for more challenge in pve, because it will be way above your abilities.

Rragar is one of the most difficult dungeons, but the groups you're talking about are manageable with an appropriate build, and basic micro managing, I found the difficulty was more in the large, balanced groups of Charrs.

Iterupt hench ftw lol. Ok but pvp asside I still think everyone is avoiding it cryer is an aoe with no scatter, and when mobs are balled up well in FoW (or anywere for that matter) and your team is running cryway isnt that the same. It kills just as fast if not faster then roj. If you say roj takes no effort to use then whenever you go into FoW on any of the damage dealing aoe classes aren't wouldnt that make you a hippocrate? Your basicly saying that everyone who tries to use skills that cause little to no agro is noob? Also this takes little or no skill? Dude in Pve nothing takes skill you find the best way to kill a bunch of monsters not oooooo let's make it a super duper challengeing and run in there with absolutly no aoe damage or well thought out builds and have all your heros and henchman die. Everyone that still plays the game and is flameing roj your a hippocrate b/c at some point you've used it our have been in a grp with ppl that used it or something like it. As far as the AI not running from it, b4 they nerf a skill they just buffed y not look at all the skills that dont cause scatter first and then maybe take a look at roj.

RoJ is broken in the sense of its mechanics. AoEDots cause scatter. RoJ is the only AoEDot not causing scatter. See now?

Avoiding that? Yeah, there hasn't been any discussion in other threads at all saying CoP needs a major rework, too... oh wait.

Anyway, to elaborate on what Tyla is getting at, the types of damage done by the skills that cause scatter and the that caused by CoP are different. The AoE skills that cause mobs to scatter are the ones that cause pulse damage (i.e. x damage in the area per second for x seconds... SS and VoR act in this manner without being explicitly worded as such). Mobs scatter out of these to avoid damage that would occur over the next several seconds. RoJ is the only pulse damage AoE that does not trigger this reaction, so it should be changed.

On the other hand, CoP is a one shot conditional AoE that only "pulses" if the people running it lack any bit of coordination. A mob that scatters after CoP has been unleashed would not be avoiding any additional damage, making it pointless to do so. The functionality is different, so basing changes for based on the other doesn't work.

Nobody is arguing the lethality of CoP; yes it's broken, but it's a different kind of broken than RoJ is. What other pulsing AoE skills do not cause scatter? None, RoJ is the only one that doesn't.

No, because the other pulsing AoE skills trigger the scatter. They still don't take much skill to use, but at least they function properly.

No, anyone who can only succeed in killing the mindless AI by using broken skills is a noob. The scattering caused by every other pulsing AoE can be dealt with easily by a team that puts any thought into their bars.

Also, keeping all the little red dots (monsters) that remain stationary or move in rigid and predictable patrols out of that little whitish circle around that green dot (you) on the mini map does not require many skills beyond eyesight and manual dexterity in no fewer than 2 fingers.

So wait, a well thought out build is one that consists of a tank standing in one spot while mobs beat on him/her with complete futility and are blissfully ignorant of the fact that 5 or 6 or 7 other people (or heroes) are RoJ-ing them into oblivion? That is a well thought out build? At least with the AoE skills that work correctly and cause scatter there's an outside chance the mobs might accidentally target someone they could hurt for a few fleeting seconds.

/facepalm

At least with 7 copies of CoP these mobs suffer an instantaneous end to their pathetic existence.

Yes everyone has used AoE at some point, and most of us still do, as it remains completely viable even though it causes scatter. Now it just requires a barely thought out build instead of a completely mindless one centered around one broken skill.

If that's being a hypocrite then everyone who says incest is bad is also a hypocrite because while they are forming in the womb their genitals are inside their mother.

Again, all the skills that cause AoE damage that can be avoided over time are the ones that should and do cause mobs to scatter. RoJ should not be the only exception.

I remember when every AoE skill was broken and didn't cause scatter.

Even then at least four of the five pulses are going to hit before the AI dodge kicks in. What exactly are we complaining about?

Pretty much QFT.

I was going to JQ w/ 3 RoJ'ers, me being one of them. By the time the AI did move, 3/4ths of their hp was gone. It's not going to be anything different with scatter. Maybe they'll move faster? But honestly they dont move any faster with other aoes <.<

They don't move at all when there is a single RoJ, which is what is bugged with the skill.

So ok I guess echo meteor shower is op bc the mobs have no chance of running away from the "pulse" aoe damage, but if they fixed roj and then added a knock down to it, it would be ok? B/c that's basicly what meteor shower is roj fixed with a knock down, and when does anyone just cast 1 roj on any enemy outside of UW. A roj monk is rarely even used in uwsc pugs. Even in my uwsc guild we only realy use a necro, only if nobody can run necro do we take a roj. So realy u have no argument b/c 2 rojs still triggers the mobs scatter. Sorry if this is hard to read b/c of the gramaticle errors im useing my iPod touch.

need the scatter to at least make it semi-random not 'press button, recieve shrine'.

Anet should just add a "this spells does not cause AoE scatter" in the description.

I don't care about scatter or not in PvE, but I do care and I think RoJ is broken in JQ.

1 single skill can take out the whole group of NPCs that is seriously broken.

I forgot to say this....yes a well thought out build is exactly what u said. You would be very very stupid if u dont think that perma sin is a very very clever well thought out assorment of 8 different skills this leads me to ask the question how long have u played this game? I only ask this b/c it was only 3 years ago maybe that shadow form was being experemented with. I know this b/c it was my old guildy who started it by trying it out as a runner in gvg as an experement. His name was Socom fanatic and doesnt play anymore but I can give u the exact build he started with. So dont say that comeing up with a build that can tank in a game that wasn't meant to be tanked in not creative. And also does nukeing in any game ever take any kind of skill? The answere is no. Ive nuked and tanked in high end raids in wow, and everquest. Its all the same.

For one or two copies of RoJ, yep. For a half dozen different monsters with RoJ, interrupts aren't going to cut it. (Though I half-wish we had the old Xinrae's Weapon back.)

I did not say they're impossible with H+H; I said that they're impossible with H+H unless you use some sort of gimmick to avoid a direct confrontation between the hounds and the H+H. And, by the sound of it, that's exactly what you did. ("If the hounds manage to cast RoJ on your bots..."; "manageable with an appropriate build...") That works, but that's not how it should be. Tank-n-Spank, 600-smite, perma-sin, terra-tank, etc. are degenerate playstyles and we should not have mobs that force players into using them to get by. Every mob should be beatable in a straight-up fight with the H+H. The hounds aren't. The fact that you can avoid a straight-up fight and complete the dungeon does not negate the problem.

Ragnar HM was not terribly hard before the RoJ buff. It remains not terribly hard for all-human teams who never take more than 1 pulse worth of damage from RoJ since they've got the good sense to move out of it. It should not be so dramatically harder for H+H users simply because of one changed skill.

The AI should be fixed so that heroes and monsters step out of it as quickly as a human would. End of story.

(Also, I call bullshit on:
Unless you're using a keyboard macro, I find it very hard to believe you're able to flag move the H+H fast enough that they haven't lost >50% hp to the first round of RoJ, or that they can survive the second round 10 sec later. Keeping the hench free of one or two copies of RoJ with flagging is believable; avoiding a half-dozen is not.)

omfg guys why you srsly want to nerf Roj, for the purpose of JQ. If Roj would be nerfed, people will get back to bombers. Even more, bombers even now are superior to roj in some way (bigger dmg, harder to heal, faster). The only advantage roj has over bomber is that it does not requie dying, and it has kind of support (like healing, removing hex/conditions and so on). If thats a problem, why just not add "Your other non-smiting skills are disambled for 10 seconds", or "Your all skills are disambled for 5 seconds". Whatever, you got my point.

Change RoJ to half casting range. That will be better than implementing an AI scatter.

That's the exact same answer to Tank'N'Spank. The only part of SF 'Sins that is a staple is Shadow Form and Deadly Paradox. And when you've not got consumables, Glyph of Swiftness. The rest is down to you and will only add to defense if you decide to use Earth Magic. It's not a well thought out build (and 3 years ago SF wasn't maintainable...) at all, and if it was, do I get a medal for changing a few skills on an Obsidian Tank or making my Ranger an Obsidian Tank for the same reason?

Yes, it would. Want to know why? Because part of the mechanics of Meteor Shower is that it knocks them down on each part of damage. The only thing then would be that RoJ would be overpowered by quite a bit.

Enjoy trying to balance PvE.

People will tackle PvE like they do WoW - lots of buffs, tankn'spank.

The Imbagon, for all its problems of "balance", allows a party to negate traditional notions of PvE tactics.

You can't balance PvE - there will always be a foolproof way of beating it. The initial builds for DoA proved that overwhelming force will lead to players using as much defense as possible why abusing amazingly powerful spells.

I like RoJ - they took a useless skill, and buffed it in an interesting way.

Why would you want to change the skill itself to add a negative effect when the answer is already there. Just add scatter AI to RoJ in order to bring it in line with EVERY OTHER skill of the same type and be done with it.

As for bombers. I hear that even with the 2 second cast time [rend enchantments] still makes those guys useless.

I don't understand why people are against 'nerfing' RoJ.

Fixing a bugged skill is not nerfing it, it's fixing it. Bugs should be fixed, this is no excuse.

good and bad update...shield monk and primal ragers are nakered now = good good A-net *claps*

ancestors rage update...kinda wtf???
RtW ranger *CRIES*

hmm...good and bad this month.....

NEED ROJ SCATTER PLZ

Ancestor's rage is 1-31, because it now triggers 3 times over 3 seconds instead of twice over 2 seconds. Roughly the same damage overall, it's just spaced out more.

No wai?

Im still waiting for more elite skill buffs. =P

And then, the non-elite skill buffs.

ROJ should be made into an exception. In fact a lot of other AoE spells need to be made the same way just because they are so ridiculously underpowered. Ex. Chaos Storm, Symbol of Wrath, Fire Storm

No. AE spells SHOULD cause scatter. If some spells are weak, they should be buffed. But keeping AI absolutely retarded is not the answer.

Personally at this point I don't care if they want to make RoJ 250 damage per hit, but it needs to cause scatter. There's a difference between viable/overpowered and bugged. Fix the damn bug.

I really don't know what people are arguing about. The only thing that it will change is that mobs will start scattering after the whole thing is done.

The reason why we are 'against' this is that it is a waste of time. We ask, why should it be done, and get no answer other than it should be done.

because monks shouldnt have an AOE spell that auto-clears shrines for them without a little bit left to chance.

^This.

Also, why have only one AoE skill not cause scatter if it wasn't a bug? Just doesn't make sense. It's as Arkantos said, "Bugs should be fixed, this is no excuse."

You are ignoring the fact that even if scatter does get added, RoJ will still clear the shrines.

If that is your argument, then you can argue that RoJ is too powerful or needs to be toned down, but you cannot argue that the problem is that it does not cause scatter.

I think its because the NPCs at the shrine are program to "guard" the shrine and not wander away too far. that causes them to not scatter when hit by RoJ.

When you use AoE on NPC at JQ using E/A with death charge. althougt you won't be able to kill all the NPC at once, it also does not cause them to scattered. its not just RoJ, they do run away, but not out of the shrine, but they do recognise when you are low on health and try to chase you for a little bid further then they would try to dodge an AoE.

Just my observation.

Just to clarify, RoJ does not cause scatter on the enemy AI in either hard mode or normal mode, it's not an Alliance Battles complaint when people say it is bugged to not cause scatter.

Enemy AI in PvE are always scattered :P its trying to group them to AoE them thats hard

Just wanting to ask, how did this affect Stance monks? Most of the stance monk builds I've seen use 8 tactics which meant 4 seconds of whatever stance there using which is either the same or 1 second less than before. Not much of a difference.

You have it entirely wrong. If you ball up a mob in HM PvE (not exactly hard to do), and them someone on your team casts a pulsing AoE damage spell on them (Firestorm, Savannah Heat, etc), they will scatter around the second or third pulse. RoJ does not trigger this behavior; the mobs will happily stay in the AoE for all pulses.

You guys miss the point behind Ray. The creeps think they see the light, instead they get judged by Balthazar. Nobody can run away from Balthazar duh. Beam the souls up Balthy, it's judgment day.

Ok if they change it in PvP for balance reasons, but leave it the way it is for PvE. Smiting is more fun again and that's what counts in PvE.

But lets ask them: Anet, is 'Ray of judgment' working as intended? Thank you.


EDIT: Mixed Balthazar with Grenth there for a minute, but smiting belongs to Balthazar ofcourse.

and the loss of 15 armor

But that said, i only ever use dstance when im KD midspike or when i know a ranger is sitting on me when i have to cast, either way 3 seconds is still fine.

One thing to consider is the npc's in JQ seem to have really low health. Many skills including RoJ are able to nuke them with ease.