UWSC going to be nerfed?

shawdow form on a perma is worse than ursan ever was.

people/game were fine b4 permas they'll be fine after. Its just now we have people who are spoiled with how easy it is for perma to do anything.

rofl

When I read people like you, I realize it's just no use...

The ursan reference made my day, could you please enlighten me and explain me what makes the ursan nerf a good nerf ?

This.
SF was around way before cons, but gimmick builds have been, and always will be, part of the meta. What will it be next, I wonder?

If A/E and cons are nerfed, we will just go back to A/Me permasin and 600/smite speedclears.

Only reason we couldn't permasin back then is because it wasn't a trend. But there sure were uwsc from very few elite players

Hell, you can already run uw in 40 mins. Imagine a team.

Can't we just equip monsters with at least ONE enchantment removal skill say, Signet of Disenchantment for the SF crowd?

Nerfing SF won't stop the speed clears. I've wrote this so many times in so many places about so many different skills (CoP, RoJ..etc) and up to now have been right. The Deep HM was finished in 18 minutes without PvE skills, SF or 600/smite - with a bit of organisation really anything can counter terriblemonster and level design.

If you break elite areas down in to the very minimum that needs to be killed to continue, it is no surprise fast teams are, well, fast. By way of example, in the Deep everything in the first set of rooms (4) and the large room afterwards must be killed, then all the outcast in the first depletion aspect, then the oni in scorpion aspect and end kanaxai. Yes that really is it - 8 groups.

For the record, ANet were not trying to stamp out speed clears completely, just commented that they had become fast enough to actually draw some skill-balance attention

Remove holy dmg from aohm to slow pits, add another touch skill to blacknesses, buff tactics so aatxes cause energy problems with their skills, buff zealot's fire to make wastes harder, and give wastes enemies the signet that disables your elite.

Problem solved without nuking uwsc.

Someone stated earlier in the thread that randomizing spawns around the entire instance would be a good solution.

I totally agree.

It means that an extra several minutes go into scouting out each area and finding what's there. It doesn't hinder teams at all, since their plan of attack will hinge upon the mobs, not the location of said mobs. Of course, this is without a doubt beyond the scope of the update programming capabilities as they currently are, but it's a good idea nonetheless. Also makes for more dynamic gameplay.

His points aren't valid, and I'll answer your simple question to explain why.

From a player's perspective, making things easier is always going to make them happy. From RMT to mods to UWSC, players like to have things given to them quicker and easier. That doesn't affect my gameplay at all.

However, I'm not even talking from a player's perspective, I'm talking from an overall design perspective. A solid game with high replayability does not benefit from making the game shallower/easier, nor does the developer doing it inspire trust in future developments. It simply shows lazy game design and poor judgment for the long run, at the expense of short-term profit/player fun.

The 'doesn't affect your gameplay' argument simply isn't valid when talking about game design and no longer needs an explanation every time someone throws it out.

nah ive yet to actually do a speed clear. ive watched my son do it a bunch, he got a set of FoW armor and hasnt done it since. i also didnt get caught up with Ursan when that was the flavor of the month or how ever long it lasted. im working on my own personal goal right now before GW2 comes out, if it ever does. yeah the UW use to be or still is considered an elite area but the only thing anyone is after in there is ecto and the eternal blade? the rest of the drops stink, or have as the guild wars franchise grew. same with FoW, other the the satisfaction of clearing it and getting shards for your armor what the point of doing it over and over. for some triple req drop from a chest? i enjoyed doing the 600/smite runs there back before the spirit bond nerf that was said to be due to PvP. well they split PvP and PvE skills, yet spirit bond never got un-nerfed.

So.. making changes that are almost certainly not going to dent the speed of the speed clear, but help to screw over everyone else is perfectly fine?

Do you expect me to believe you aren't 1 of these noobs who doesn't want his precious UWSC taken away and is prepared to go to any lengths to avoid it?

Avarre just said it. Shadow Form in general is a sign of utterly pathetic game design choices. Ursan was bad enough, but Permasins are just ridiculous. Any competant game designer should've seen what Permasins would do to the game and removed it, but no, Anet not only allowed it, they un-nerfed it! Why should i have any faith in future products when they've made such a crap job of this 1 in its later years? Ever since EotN was released they've gone from 1 bad decision to the next, 1 delayed update to the next. I honestly don't care if the people who do UWSC quit when it gets nerfed, wtf were they bringing to the game?

Problem solved, or did you just create a bigger problem?

Nerfing AoHM is going to slow down pits, sure. But why should dervishes (who are already very weak compared to warriors and assassins) take a nerf because of it? Oh right, they shouldn't.

By aatxes, I'm assuming you mean graspings, because they have fear me. A buff isn't going to make a big difference, unless you make it overpowered. If you do, then you're just going to screw up other groups simply because of this. Again, not needed.

Buff zealots? Again, not going to make a big difference.

Give enemies signet of humility? Sure, it's going to disable shadow form. But then again, you're screwing over every other group. Every mesmer enemy in the UW comes in fairly big numbers. Why would you make it so it's possible for all of your parties elite skills disabled?


On another note, you people need to realize the difference between wanting to nerf shadow form and wanting to nerf speed clears. No, nerfing shadow form isn't going to stop speed clears. But that's not the ultimate reasoning behind the nerf. Having a skill that allows you to be indefinitely invincible to most enemies in PvE is just a dumb skill to have in a game. It's a very poor game design choice, as Kendel said. It's a very pathetic design. A skill that allows you to be invincible is a skill that doesn't belong in an online game. Go play single player games with cheats if you want god mode.

Speed clears need a nerf. Not just builds, but the design of some areas. Being able to split your party up and do an area quicker is a good tactic, but when it comes to the point where single players can solo dozens of enemies and complete the objectives in that area of the map is another very poor game design.

Shadow form needs a nerf. Being invincible does not belong in Guild Wars. You know there's a huge problem when 2 assassins can clear the UW in HM in ~30 minutes. Speed clears need to be stopped. Being able to complete elite areas in under 20 minutes is absolutely ridiculous.

I would argue that GW in it's current state would lose replayability by nerfing SCs.
Because there are simply too many things wrong with the game and a singular patch, rather than a complete overhaul of the game, done in A.Net's fashion would just hurt the game more.

So while DLI,DUI isn't a good idea when we are dealing with a game developer that has the resources to completely rework the game, this description does not apply to A.Net at this time.
I think GW is in a phase where providing fixes isn't a viable option, but providing simple counters is. And SCs are one of those counters.

Its amazing how much this looks like the Ursan Thread right before Anet nerfed that. Personally I think they should bring Ursan back to what it was, then at least the playing field would be more level, i.e. everyone would have access to an overpowered skill instead of just Assasins running permaform. But getting rid of SF would definately level things across the classes as well.

how about this,

Anet, we spend our money on the game, we have all spent at least $200 overall for all 4 games +expansions. I think we have the right for you guys to NOT nerf and NOT make us mad. WE spend money on the game, WE play it countless hours, WE deserve to right to do whatever we desire concerning skills on GW. Skill Updates= LAME.

If only UW was an area you could enjoy doing more than once, but it is not.

GW high-end pve lacks difficulty (adding a mob of 50 lvl 30 monsters with monsters skills has never even been close to what "high end" should be), lacks proper rewards (that should not be turned into cash), and lacks repeatability.

UW and other high end pve instances are only good for farming, that's why I have absolutely no problem with people finding the best possible way to clear them.


BTW, do you realize that you're asking for nerfs in a five years old game ? What good could it possibly bring ?

If you were asking for structural changes in GW, it might be unrealistic, but it would be smarter, and maybe more useful if GW2 devs ever drop by the boards.

Is it that hard to understand that GW high end pve is limited to farming ?

I'll try an knock the sarcasm on the head :P

The 55/600/smite build or insert any other unnerfed skill is a sign of bad game design.

Remember when this started to take off? Near everyone was trying it and the only limiting factor was getting the runes/ equipment as they where alot higher in price.

Running this build took little to no skill but it was an effective way to make money when ecto where 12-16k each...

I remember not being able to get groups as well as others, it was very differcult to for anything because everyone wanted to solo/duo. (sound familiar?)

Shame it taken things to get to Ursan/Shadow Form for people to speak out and say fix this, it should've been done back in the day when the 55/600/smite solo/duo was taking off but nobody said s**t. The few threads i did see on fourm's where laughed at, trolled, then usually locked.

You're right. I spent at least $200, I've spent 3,750 hours playing. I want my damn instant win button, ANet!

Now, on the flip side...

Anet, we spend our money on the game, we have all spent at least $200 overall for all 4 games +expansions. I think we have the right for you guys to NOT let PvE continue to be ridiculous and NOT continue making us mad. WE spend money on the game, WE play it countless hours, WE deserve the right to want some sort of balance. Skill Updates= GOOD.

Just heard a rumour in the GToB that they were going to buff the speed clears.

I've bought all the campaigns and the expansion. Aswell as some CE. I spent a good deal on the game too.

Do I not have the right to play a balanced game? One where all professions have an equal chance at doing a particular area?

The only lame skill update was the one that un-nerfed Shadow Form in the first place.

I have read all the posts here and there does seem be a vocal minority who no longer play or are retired and seem so passionate in dictating to others their opinion about the way the game should be played, some of these folks are also disrepectful to posters here....

Really, if you are not playing the game any more and not affected by SF etc then why get so worked up about it? Who cares? It is a game? Play it the way you want to play it. There are different play styles.

Anyway, I have lost respect for some of the more prominient members of the guru forum in the way they conduct themselves in this thread, not that it matters right?

Silver.

I spent money on this game, as well. I would like it to be balanced.
Sounds like a good omen.
I still play. I want a nerf.
Because I am still playing, I am affected by SF, and there are not different play styles. Not anymore, anyway. Now I have to use SF or sit in the outpost. And that is how SF affects my gaming experience (@ all the people who were asking that). SF severely restricts my gaming options by forcing me to make an assassin if I want to clear UW. The old clears that I found fun are no longer ran.

I love this argument. Aside from being patently false (I got my UW statue on my ranger after UWSC was born), it makes a lot of faulty assumptions. The biggest one being "With no UWSC anymore, I'll be able to get a pug on whatever class/build I want."

Yeah, because pugs are going to be falling all over themselves to get your non-imbagon para or Communing Rit into their groups.

No, they're going to go with what works. If your whinging works and you get the widespread nerfs you so desire, and there isn't a new gimmick that comes up in a week, you'd better be running Holy Trinity if you want to see the inside of UW with a pug.

With a PUG? Lucky you.
Not sure who you're arguing with here. I don't have a Para or a Rit, I never said that I wanted to form a group with poor synergy and planning to clear UW, and I'm well aware that people are going to go with what works. As long as an elite area in Hard Mode can't be cleared in a ridiculously short period of time by a team of Assassins all abusing the same skill, I'm going to be pretty content. I don't expect there to suddenly be BYOB groups in ToA. There will be a new meta, but it should not be as stupidly fast and simple as the current one.

Shadow Form is one skill.

HAH! Hardly. I won't even pug for Great Northern Wall.

If that's not the dictionary definition of PUG, it should be.

Ah. So you want them nerfed because you don't approve of what they are doing. That is a far cry from the claim that "If I want to play UW I have to be an assassin." that you made earlier, and your issue has shifted from "it effects my play" (it doesn't) to "It's wrong and I'm going to moralize on the issue".

And you will be forced into that meta too. So your arguments are hypocrisy at best. And if you think UWSC is simple, try it. I won't even be dicky enough to suggest mountains. Start with an easy one. Go vale and see how well you do without practice.

loads of respect for people that use that word. only immature people use this word. oh wait.

don't buy any more of their products again. I am sure regular people will enjoy not seeing the likes of a whiny brat wanting things done their way.

so not only are you demanding that anet abides by your commands, but you insult them at the same time. excellent.

and let me ask you fine sir, what exactly do you bring to the game that seperates you from others? oh right....uh...what was it again?

It doesn't really matter if you nerf SF. The problem with GW in this regard (note: I LOVE the game, so this is not a cutting rant) is that because they want their end-game to be PvP, the PvE is too standardized. Going in to an area you know what enemies you're going to face, what skills and skill levels they are going to have, and exactly where they will be (for the most part). At that point, its all just math (and timing skills) to figure out the most efficient way to beat a given area. If UWSC are nerfed via SF, then the next mathematically efficient build will take its place.

What you would need in these areas is a certain amount of randomization for enemies. For example, if they are mesmers, give them 2 attributes and they get 4-6 random skills from those attributes. The more you have to prepare for, the less direct you can be with your build and the harder it would be to farm these areas. This goes not only for solo builds, but team builds as well. You would see more creative ways of getting through these areas that will take longer.

Personally, I just want there to be parity. If they aren't going to stop assassins from being able to solo farm, then they need to allow all professions to solo farm by some whacky build (not necessarily the same area, but at least somewhere in the game like 600's have SoO, Earth Eles can farm Raptors and Vatteirs). I agree, that perhaps these elite areas should not be farmable, since they are meant to be elite areas, but as long as everyone can farm something, its not so bad.

From a player's perspective, making things harder is always going to make them unhappy...

I am trying to think of a MMO that is near perfectly designed that players have not found a preferred build that everyone "exploits". Nothing is jumping out at me.

It is my opinion that this whole nerfing business just amounts to beating your head against the wall. It is human nature to "beat" the game and allow you to kick ass.

PUGs were what I was talking about. You clearing UW with your friends or Guildmates doesn't change the fact that UWSC is the only thing that PUGs will do.
I'm not allowed to have more than one argument? And, yea, it does affect my play.
If the new meta isn't as ridiculously effective as the current, then It will be less impossible to get a group doing something other than the meta. In my opinion, the meta should be the most efficient way, but not so efficient that everything else is immediately dismissed as a possibility.
I was basing that comment on what I've read on the forums. So, I guess I didn't really have any place to say it. Sorry if I was misinformed. And no, I'm not going to make an Assassin just to do UWSC.

It doesn't have to be perfect, it just has to not continually make implementations that worsen the problem.

Either nothing is imbalanced to make things even, or everything is imbalanced to make things a hackfest (ie: Diablo 2). Consider PvE an actual challenge or clearly demarcate it as nothing more than a farm for all. GW is caught between the two, trying to be both and not particularly fabulous at either.

My slant towards keeping it as the former (nothing massively imbalanced) is because GW started closer to that point, and if I wanted the latter, I'd play Diablo 2. I liked the game then and see no reason why it needed to change in such a bizarre and poorly-designed manner.

Meta and 'best possible option' are not total overlaps. Meta simply implies a build that is highly familiar and the 'fashion' to run. It does not, however, have to be the most effective build, for example the Mantra of Frost GC/Winter builds in early DoA. A large part of the problem is that currently the most effective builds are the easiest builds as well.

This is an outrage!!! How dare they even think such things.... Oh wait I don't even play Assassin. Oh well.

So you don't mind a meta that probably excludes 7/10 professions from the teambuild, but it's just because you don't have an assassin that you dislike the current meta. And yes, UWSC is easy, if you have any experience permaforming. Mnts is easy too, just run there and start wanding. If you die, it's because of bad spawns or you ran in some traps or lag, it's not because it's difficult.

I, for one, wouldn't like to see SF nerfed. I've had a permasin for a few months now, and it helped me run my secondary account a few places or through a few missions. I recently did a couple of weeks of UWSC to get my first set of obsidian armor. Now I've had enough of it for a while. SF is a good way to make some money dungeon running, but the same can be accomplished with a monk. Other people farming their brains out aren't affecting my gameplay at all, except maybe that some items have become a little cheaper, which is only good in my opinion.

And some nerfs are very easy. For example, it's extremely simple to completely nerf Voltaic Spear farming out of existence: make it so the wall between the entrance and Thommis' chest doesn't open until all party members have opened the chest. How simple of a nerf is that?

Yes, ignore all of my other points and focus on that detail. If I wanted to partake in this meta, I would make a sin and get him to ToA. Leveling to 20 in Factions and buying an elite sin tome for 3k is not an arduous task.
That's another thing that annoys me. "I feel like getting obsidian armor." *loads up perma build and effortlessly gets the armor within a few weeks* Seems like a slap in the face to all the people who actually earned it without abusing SF or 600 monking.

If by "a group" you mean "a PUG" again, then you're deluding yourself. If you're pugging, you WILL run meta, or you will not pug. It has been that way since day one. It was why they QQed for Ursan Nerf, it was why they QQed for Cryway nerf, and it is why they are QQing for shadow form nerf.

You WILL run meta if you want to pug. If your argument is that you believe, for whatever reason, that you should not have to play meta with a pug, you're apparently new to MMOs.

You're entirely welcome to your opinion. Reality disagrees (although it doesn't depend nearly as much on efficiency as you think, just popularity). There's a reason that PUGs never change the meta, they only adopt it. It's because the friend/guild groups are the ones coming up with the new builds/teams that become the new metas.

Vale support can be a necro or a monk. Necros are just preferred. So again, you are just objecting to this meta because YOU don't like it, and everyone should have to play your way. You've said as much here. You could do it easily, you choose not to. Therefore, everyone who enjoys the current meta should have to adapt to the mighty Ugh's playstyle, because he's more important than they are.

That argument is nothing more than e-peen waving and no sane developer should even consider it (which means Anet probably will). "Baaawwwwww. It's gotten easier to get this rare item in 4 years so now mine doesn't show everyone how uber-1337 I am!!1one!"

In short, tough noogies.

Yes, I was talking about the 'new' meta you are going for, that will probably exclude 7/10 profession (just an educated guess based on all previous speed clear metas).So? I played for over 4 years now. I haven't gotten a q9 Voltaic Spear or an eternal blade or any other high value item dropped for me in all that time. Does that mean I'm pissed at the people who have? No. Did those people 'earn' their obsidian armor more because they got a high value item dropped? No. I'm playing for me. People running bogroot growths 24/7 collecting all kinds of frog scepters and getting insanely rich from them (just one example of a SF speedclear) doesn't bother me at all. I say let them. Maybe it will drive the price down so I can buy one without doing weeks of UWSC or equivalent.

All proffessions are equal, it's how you USE them.

And what would assassins be without perma? you tell me the answer to that one

wow, shows how much of a idiot you are, messing up other peoples posts

Oi, oi.

Are all professions equal?
Just check this:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Skill

They don't even have the same options when it comes to skills.

Professions are far from equal, that's why skill changes must be done so frequently to keep the game moving, add power when it's lacking, remove it when it's excessive and change them when there is no way to make any of both.

Shadow Form is one of the examples.
It can't have power removed without becoming useless, and can't have power added without becoming excessive.

It must be changed.


Anyways, anything with 'Speed Clear' on its name is to be utterly destroyed until it becomes just 'clear' without the 'speed'.

No single profession should be able to do in 10 minutes what takes 1 or 2 hours for the rest.

When such a game is invented, let us know. To my knowledge, there has never been a game with multiple classes/jobs/specializations/whatever, single player or otherwise, that has exhibited such perfect balance.

Trends like these have a habit of repeating. A super efficient farm build is formed, its heavily used and in time its nerfed. Only to be replaced by another super efficient farm build.

Wouldn't it be boring if you all were still farming griffins because ANet chose not to add all those scarabs?

Point is, use it while its there, and accept if somethings to good to be true, it probably is.