I'd have to agree with Skyy. It destroys the concept of a limited skillset. So we can only carry 8 skills instead of 20, what does it matter when you only need 3 to be more or less invincible.
I think SF is overpowered, but moreso I think the high end areas need an update. If you notice, all the elite areas are just higher level, harder hitting monsters. Theres nothing creative about that, so of course SF blows through it. Give them counters, self heals, whatever, and the problem probably goes away, while leaving SF as a viable option for soloing or running like the devs have stated they want to keep it as.
UWSC going to be nerfed?
Scf Big M
toocooltang
Skyy is correct... one of the best players I have ever seen is Sacratus Ignis. He doesn't play anymore but before he left made a post on the dungeon farming thread... The last sentance of the first paragraph sums it up.
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=130
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=130
aga
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Scf Big M
I think SF is overpowered, but moreso I think the high end areas need an update. If you notice, all the elite areas are just higher level, harder hitting monsters. Theres nothing creative about that, so of course SF blows through it. Give them counters, self heals, whatever, and the problem probably goes away, while leaving SF as a viable option for soloing or running like the devs have stated they want to keep it as.
|
As for the high end areas such as, DoA, Deep, Urgoz, UW, FoW...I'm sure they could stop SF breezing through them by adding skills like Soulrending Shriek to some of the monsters in them. I would really love to see this happen, but doubtful i will.
Lishy
DoA and Urgoz aren't really a problem though. The outposts are practically abandoned. Even during zbounties.
Yoom Omer
Sform isn't the problem - not the big part of it, at least. The problem is that monsters run with suckish bars, and instead of fixing their bars A.Net decided to give them unfair buffs.
If every group of in the game consisted of some healers, some dmg dealers, some guys to annoy players (well, guys that have intterupts and stuff, mesmers prolly, rangers?) and rez, SF wouldn't be able to breeze thorugh. Balanced would. Also, they can bring some monsters signet of disenchantment, Hex eater vrtex etc., and shadow form goes Kaboom.
If every group of in the game consisted of some healers, some dmg dealers, some guys to annoy players (well, guys that have intterupts and stuff, mesmers prolly, rangers?) and rez, SF wouldn't be able to breeze thorugh. Balanced would. Also, they can bring some monsters signet of disenchantment, Hex eater vrtex etc., and shadow form goes Kaboom.
Simath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Yoom Omer
Sform isn't the problem - not the big part of it, at least. The problem is that monsters run with suckish bars, and instead of fixing their bars A.Net decided to give them unfair buffs.
If every group of in the game consisted of some healers, some dmg dealers, some guys to annoy players (well, guys that have intterupts and stuff, mesmers prolly, rangers?) and rez, SF wouldn't be able to breeze thorugh. Balanced would. Also, they can bring some monsters signet of disenchantment, Hex eater vrtex etc., and shadow form goes Kaboom. |
Also, groups composed in a balanced fashion can breeze through areas. Failures are due to the people behind the builds lacking intelligence.
Bryant Again
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
So instead of fixing one skill, you would rather have them fix all the mobs. Absolutely brilliant.
|
But if ANet isn't going to fix the AI then they're gonna need to tone down SF.
Dzjudz
Not this month.
Shrimz
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dzjudz
Not this month.
|
Wynthyst
Do any of you read anything other than this forum?
Quote:
| I am more concerned about UW, FoW and DoA having issues with balance that encourage this style of play than I am concerned about Shadow Form. I would rather work on making those areas fun and bug free in ways that discourage the use of SF than work on nerfing SF into the ground. ~ Linsey Murdock |
vandevere
Looks like Linsey's tired of the nerfbat too...
Hopefully, she'll find a good alternative...
Hopefully, she'll find a good alternative...
A11Eur0
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
So instead of fixing one skill, you would rather have them fix all the mobs. Absolutely brilliant.
|
Bryant Again
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Wynthyst
Do any of you read anything other than this forum?
|
Simath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by A11Eur0
Yes. Yes it is. Give monsters decent bars and remove their unfair, overpowered inherent abilities and characteristics, toss in a couple signet enchant removals here and there and it's done. Make the enemies balanced and it'll make for a better game overall.
|
Secondly, you're joking right? I'm sorry, but I just cannot take you serious. You want to remove the monsters overpowered abilities, but yet at the same time you want to give them decent bars. So you want to make them easier and harder all in one? You seem terribly confused.
The enemies do not need to be balanced. Skills that can be easily exploited in the vast majority of the areas (Shadow Form says hi) is the problem. Items such as consumables need to be removed, and so do PvE skills such as SY!. The problem isn't that hard to see, but some people prefer to remain blind to the matter.
Arkantos
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Wynthyst
Do any of you read anything other than this forum?
|
Anyways, making the areas more fun to play and discouraging players from running SF is a great idea. The problem, however, is that no matter how fun the areas are, people are going to run what's easiest and most effective. Which means ANet can change these 3 areas to be more fun, but everyone is still going to run SF because it's easy and effective.
Quote:
| Secondly, you're joking right? I'm sorry, but I just cannot take you serious. You want to remove the monsters overpowered abilities, but yet at the same time you want to give them decent bars. So you want to make them easier and harder all in one? You seem terribly confused. |
However, in order for this to happen, ANet would have to remove the overpowered abilities players have (PvE skills, consumables), so it's never going to happen.
A11Eur0
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
First off, you should probably do some research on the programming that fixing every single mob would require, since you are apparently uneducated on the subject. At this point in time a task like the aforementioned would require more effort and man hours than Anet is willing to give.
Secondly, you're joking right? I'm sorry, but I just cannot take you serious. You want to remove the monsters overpowered abilities, but yet at the same time you want to give them decent bars. So you want to make them easier and harder all in one? You seem terribly confused. The enemies do not need to be balanced. Skills that can be easily exploited in the vast majority of the areas (Shadow Form says hi) is the problem. Items such as consumables need to be removed, and so do PvE skills such as SY!. The problem isn't that hard to see, but some people prefer to remain blind to the matter. |
I don't want them to be made easier, I just want unfair advantages taken away. I want mobs to be subject to the same rules as the players fighting them, and giving them balanced bars will achieve that. Giving them balanced bars also forces them to make the AI use those bars effectively, which will improve hero AI as well, which helps the game overall.
Hard mode gives monsters increased movement and attack speeds, higher levels, and increased damage overall due to level differences. These differences are matched with consumables. Giving them balanced skill bars and removing inherent advantages other than those granted by Hard Mode would more than balance the game in PvE...if anything giving them good synergy and AI would make the game harder overall, and reduce, if not eliminate the effectiveness of gimmick builds. SF is so fragile it's not funny. If you think it's god mode you've never used it. If you think SF will survive in any mob with a single signet disenchanter you're balls-deep in your own bunghole, not to mention other non-spell/attack abilities that will laugh at SF like it isn't even there.
Simath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by A11Eur0
I said it would be better for the game, not easier. Not once did I comment on the ease of the task, so take your passive aggressive idiocy elsewhere.
|
Whether or not you made a remark on "the ease of the task" is irrelevant. You were suggesting something that is near impossible considering Anet's current situation, and needed to be commented on.
As for my passive aggressive idiocy, well, I guess you don't realize this is the internet. I apologize. Next time I will preface my posts with a warning.
![[DE]](/static/static/../Img/avatar38220_14.gif){kind=avatar}
[DE]
Subjecting mobs to the same rules as the players is what makes a game too easy and no fun to play. It's PvE, if anything, fighting against nothing but balanced mobs the entire time is the fastest way to bore yourself to death.
The concept seems like a good one - give mobs balanced bars to improve the state of the game and allow for more interesting fights. But in reality you don't want to have to fight a balanced mob every other minute. Not to mention after the first ten fights you'll want to quit Guild Wars and never come back. Only so many bars in Guild Wars can be balanced and people suggest giving every single mob in guild wars these bars. If you enjoy fighting the same enemy over and over I guess that will float your boat, but if not then you're out of luck.
The fact is, it's the imbalanced bars and gimmicky skill combinations that make PvE what it is. The diversity of these bars allow for a different experience no matter what zone you go to. Granted, not every bar for mobs are very well thought out, and I can certainly name a fair share of ones that I hate. But if PvE was nothing but balanced builds and fair-fighting monsters then it wouldn't be much fun.
edit: Plus I don't like turtling until VoD just to kill one group of enemies. Please enjoy that year old joke as I'm sure it ages just like fine wine.
The concept seems like a good one - give mobs balanced bars to improve the state of the game and allow for more interesting fights. But in reality you don't want to have to fight a balanced mob every other minute. Not to mention after the first ten fights you'll want to quit Guild Wars and never come back. Only so many bars in Guild Wars can be balanced and people suggest giving every single mob in guild wars these bars. If you enjoy fighting the same enemy over and over I guess that will float your boat, but if not then you're out of luck.
The fact is, it's the imbalanced bars and gimmicky skill combinations that make PvE what it is. The diversity of these bars allow for a different experience no matter what zone you go to. Granted, not every bar for mobs are very well thought out, and I can certainly name a fair share of ones that I hate. But if PvE was nothing but balanced builds and fair-fighting monsters then it wouldn't be much fun.
edit: Plus I don't like turtling until VoD just to kill one group of enemies. Please enjoy that year old joke as I'm sure it ages just like fine wine.
Racthoh
Quote:
| I am more concerned about UW, FoW and DoA having issues with balance that encourage this style of play than I am concerned about Shadow Form. I would rather work on making those areas fun and bug free in ways that discourage the use of SF than work on nerfing SF into the ground. |
A11Eur0
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
Whether or not you made a remark on "the ease of the task" is irrelevant. You were suggesting something that is near impossible considering Anet's current situation, and needed to be commented on. |
Again: what I suggested and the effort required to complete the task is irrelevant, because I said "this would be better for the game."
See, there exists such a thing as reality. In this reality there exists such a thing as reason. I used my ability to reason to make a statement. You decided to forego your alleged ability to reason and slam me with an insult because I made a simple statement saying what would have been better. It's called criticism: Anet decided to code in something completely different when they gave enemies extra inherent abilities, rather than take already-existing skills and creating usable skill bars, for these NEWLY CREATED enemies in a NEWLY CREATED area of the game. See, When someone says what someone SHOULD HAVE DONE, and what SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE would have been easier than what WAS done, that's called use of reason and common sense. Try it someday, you'll see the merits.
Avarre
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Wynthyst
Do any of you read anything other than this forum?
|
Amnel Ithtirsol
SF is fun. Mindless fun. And that suits some people better than others.
It's about the target market. Most of the good players have moved on to alternatives, but, Anet still needs to keep their remaining player base happy.
SF sin is all most remaining players know how to play so ANet can never take it away from them. If you're looking for diversity and challenge in a game, look elsewhere, because you wont find it here.
It's about the target market. Most of the good players have moved on to alternatives, but, Anet still needs to keep their remaining player base happy.
SF sin is all most remaining players know how to play so ANet can never take it away from them. If you're looking for diversity and challenge in a game, look elsewhere, because you wont find it here.
Targren
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by vandevere
Looks like Linsey's tired of the nerfbat too...
Hopefully, she'll find a good alternative... |
AtomicMew
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Toxic OnyX
@TraverSC
Feather farming nets you a similar profit, true, apart from the odd good drop from UWSC, but what do ppl feather farm with? yu Perma's (amongst other things) |
Quote:
| as for running a perma needing concentration are you kidding me, you have at least 3 seconds in which to cast SF that is the only bit of concentration you need, having to watch for the SF light blinking ready to be re-applied. |
I think what most people here complaining don't understand is that Permas are completely useless in general PvE. It is only used in farming and SC, which, let's face it, is another type of farming. If there is a problem here, it is not about Permas but about th concept of farming. It's obvious that you can farm other places than UW and net similar if not higher profit. The reason people do UWSC instead is because it is not monotonous and presents at least a little challenge to the average player.
You can QQ all you want about how easy perma is for you. I don't really care what you think of the game, but at least be honest:
1) Permas do not actually hurt the so-called economy.
2) There are far easier farms that net just as good profit
SlipknotOFA
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Taixen
Hehe.
If they do nerf it, people will just find a new way to speed clear. If there is a change I hope that it's making UW harder, instead of changing SF again which will inevitably just cause lots of QQ here, there and well, everywhere. |
Simath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by traversc
Permas do not actually hurt the so-called economy.
|
I'm sorry, but you're an idiot.
Targren
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
I'm sorry, but you're an idiot.
|
Simath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Targren
Cute images notwithstanding, he's not the one who thinks there's an "economy" in a system with unlimited supply...
|
Targren
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
I'm glad you thought it was cute <3. I've got a whole folder full, if you want to see.
|
Damn you...
slowerpoke
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by wiki
Shadow Form, MB and 600Smite are all problems with the format they are prevalent in. I don't want to nerf SF (though I think about it for every update), I want to fix the problems in UW/FoW/DoA. I'm still on the fence about 600smite on whether I should hit the build itself or the areas that are supposed to be high-end yet can be farmed with it. We have been discussing the MB ele at length, but as we see it, the problem is with the tiebreaker not the build. There are other builds that do the same thing as the MB ele, so just nerfing it isn't actually going to fix anything. So we are going to continue to work on the tiebreaker instead. Changes like that need more careful consideration than normal so it takes longer to get something onto Live. - Image:User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 18:57, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
|
AtomicMew
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
I'm sorry, but you're an idiot. |
The complaints people bring up against permas and UWSC are not actually arguments against permas and UWSC, but rather arguments against farming in general. Again, you can feather farm and net similar profit. But that's insanely boring and most people wouldn't be able to stand it. UWSC and other SCs allow people to "farm" while not being bored out of their minds.
If you kill SCs, farming will be relegated to people who are willing to perform utterly mindless tasks over and over again.
The only logical recourse the argument takes is that farming must necessarily be mindless and boring. If you think that, that's fine, but it's your opinion. If so, you need to go ahead and say it and stop hiding.
Simath
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by traversc
If it weren't for the ability to do SCs, a lot of players would have quit a long time ago.
|
Danax
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by traversc
If it weren't for the ability to do SCs, a lot of players would have quit a long time ago.
The complaints people bring up against permas and UWSC are not actually arguments against permas and UWSC, but rather arguments against farming in general. Again, you can feather farm and net similar profit. But that's insanely boring and most people wouldn't be able to stand it. UWSC and other SCs allow people to "farm" while not being bored out of their minds. If you kill SCs, farming will be relegated to people who are willing to perform utterly mindless tasks over and over again. The only logical recourse the argument takes is that farming must necessarily be mindless and boring. If you think that, that's fine, but it's your opinion. If so, you need to go ahead and say it and stop hiding. |
AtomicMew
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Simath
Thanks for bringing up the pathetic state of this game.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Danax
Plus chest has chance for phatter loot
|
Sarevok Thordin
I want realm SC teams to be nerfed so other classes can actually play in those areas without being told SF or GTFO.
Screw the farmers, they've had their time
Screw the farmers, they've had their time
Targren
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
I want realm SC teams to be nerfed so other classes can actually play in those areas without being told SF or GTFO.
Screw the farmers, they've had their time |
Fix your own problems instead of QQing that its a problem with the game and demanding Anet screw over the majority (by your own argument, those who want to SC are the majority) to suit you.
Bryant Again
If less than a full team is able to clear an area, something is up. No exception.
BadgerzFTW
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Sarevok Thordin
I want realm SC teams to be nerfed so other classes can actually play in those areas without being told SF or GTFO.
Screw the farmers, they've had their time |
Bryant Again
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by BadgerzFTW
Yeah, but, the problem here is that assassins in PvE are completely useless without SF. you said it yourself, SF or GTFO is how it is with assassins, not other classes. Other classes actually have a use in most everything else, including most other SC's. Maybe some even have more than one use! (besides paragons). Devoting most of a bar to dagger attacks is useless in PvE, and critscythe is decent but most groups would rather use something else.
|
Arkantos
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Bryant Again
If less than a full team is able to clear an area, something is up. No exception.
|
However, when 2 assassins are able to clear UW in 30 minutes, something is up, no exception.