SF Argument
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
No it wasn't. Before the PvE / PvP skill split, Shadow Form wasn't maintainable.
ohaider. Stop being bad
_Nihilist_
I tried telling you, Life Bringing, but you didn't want to listen.
Shadow Form has not always been maintainable.
If it was always maintainable, then why only, after the PvE/PvP split, were Assassins able to start farming all sorts of things that they couldn't prior to the split? Because it couldn't be permanently maintained prior, that's why. Friends and I tried, didn't work. It's not that hard to get 16 Shadow Arts, a +20% enchanting mod, and be a /Me secondary for Arcane Echo, which requires no investment. It wasn't always maintainable.
Shadow Form has not always been maintainable.
If it was always maintainable, then why only, after the PvE/PvP split, were Assassins able to start farming all sorts of things that they couldn't prior to the split? Because it couldn't be permanently maintained prior, that's why. Friends and I tried, didn't work. It's not that hard to get 16 Shadow Arts, a +20% enchanting mod, and be a /Me secondary for Arcane Echo, which requires no investment. It wasn't always maintainable.
MisterB
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
Shadow Form has not always been maintainable.
If it was always maintainable, then why only, after the PvE/PvP split, were Assassins able to start farming all sorts of things that they couldn't prior to the split? Because it couldn't be permanently maintained prior, that's why. Friends and I tried, didn't work. It's not that hard to get 16 Shadow Arts, a +20% enchanting mod, and be a /Me secondary for Arcane Echo, which requires no investment. It wasn't always maintainable. Actually, Shadow Form was possible to maintain permanently after Nightfall's release with the use of Deadly Paradox and Arcane Echo, but the timing was unforgiving. You had only 1 or 2 seconds margin for error.
Deadly Paradox was stronger then than it is now.
So it is correct to say it was not always maintainable, but incorrect to say it could not be maintained before the split when Shadow Form was buffed.
Some links:
Deadly Paradox history
Shadow Form
AtomicMew
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeydra
Originally Posted by traversc
Originally Posted by traversc
Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net. How do you think the super rich got super rich in the first place? Exactly, Jeydra! I know you meant to disagree with me, but if you think about it, you're basically agreeing with what I just said.
It isn't fair to nerf UWSC after only a few people have gotten rich from it. A nerfing to SF will require compensatory mechanism of some sort.
Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net. How do you think the super rich got super rich in the first place? Exactly, Jeydra! I know you meant to disagree with me, but if you think about it, you're basically agreeing with what I just said.
It isn't fair to nerf UWSC after only a few people have gotten rich from it. A nerfing to SF will require compensatory mechanism of some sort.
Life Bringing
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterB
Actually, Shadow Form was possible to maintain permanently after Nightfall's release with the use of Deadly Paradox and Arcane Echo, but the timing was unforgiving. You had only 1 or 2 seconds margin for error.
Deadly Paradox was stronger then than it is now.
So it is correct to say it was not always maintainable, but incorrect to say it could not be maintained before the split when Shadow Form was buffed.
Some links:
Deadly Paradox history
Shadow Form Ups, so i was sorta wrong/right. I forgot that Deadly Paradox was a NF skill
Deadly Paradox was stronger then than it is now.
So it is correct to say it was not always maintainable, but incorrect to say it could not be maintained before the split when Shadow Form was buffed.
Some links:
Deadly Paradox history
Shadow Form Ups, so i was sorta wrong/right. I forgot that Deadly Paradox was a NF skill
Rick Thene
How's this for logic?
SF is baed.
/endthread
I'm sick of people thinking that the only way to beat something is to use SF. No, screw you, I want to play my Assassin like its meant to be played. I have beaten most "elite areas" using my regular builds. You're not better for using SF, and it's stupid how a skill exists that completely goes against the profession's playstyle.
Give it a functionality change so that it's actually an Assassin skill please.
SF is baed.
/endthread
I'm sick of people thinking that the only way to beat something is to use SF. No, screw you, I want to play my Assassin like its meant to be played. I have beaten most "elite areas" using my regular builds. You're not better for using SF, and it's stupid how a skill exists that completely goes against the profession's playstyle.
Give it a functionality change so that it's actually an Assassin skill please.
upier
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra
I don't get it. If you can't farm, then you don't get VS's and FoW armor. Objectively, nothing about you has changed. So you don't have prestige armor, but you don't need prestige armor to be effective. Is there a reason why you should have VS's and FoW armor? And if there is, is there a reason why you should be able to farm them so much faster than you would otherwise?
Approach this from another angle as well. Suppose ANet made it possible to farm 10 ectos / hour. You'll still need to work for FoW armor, but you get it really fast. Is this balanced? What about 15 ectos / hour? Where do you draw the line?
And yet another angle: what are you going to do after you have the VS's and FoW armor? As you said, there's nothing to do other than get VS's and FoW armor and maxed Sweet Tooth. What next? Quit?
(If this is referring to me personally, you're right I don't farm.
Yet.
The issue is that I still haven't decided which guy to main, and until I do that, there is no need for me to start worrying about booze, sweets, chests, ...
I am aware though that once I will decide on it, I'll need some heavy cash. The same way that Bergen saw a lot of me for a few days, back in the day when my mesmer decided that he wants FoW.)
There is no "faster than otherwise" in farming. The point of farming is to maximize your profits, so at the end of the day, there is pretty much only one way to do it. And if you aren't running that option, you're doing it wrong.
You don't run the guy whose hair you like best. You run the guy that gets the job done the fastest.
That's the difference between "playing" and "farming" PvE.
Is there anything to do after you max out all the titles?
Nope. The problem is that even with the "insane amount of money coming into the game from SCs" - maxing all those titles will take ages. It won't be near impossible as it is now, if you don't massively farm, but it will still take quite long. SCs don't give you enough money to get God in a week. The amount of money SCs bring in just give you a more realistic timetable to achieve the goals in.
Quote: Originally Posted by Jeydra
They have to become players. They have no choice. If they do not become players, they can't get Thommis HM done (unless they H/H). This will be especially pronounced on ZQ days.
You seem to think that the spirit spammer will be able to get into "playing" teams now. Maybe. But the point is there are very few, if any, playing teams right now. That's because most players simply hitch a ride on VSF runs. Think about it. The whole point of getting more humans is to finish the area faster. But you finish the area fastest by getting a VSF run, and it is so much easier to get a team for VSF. Why would anyone want to "play"? I'm not referring to you, the player. You've already decided to "play". But you can't find anyone else who also wants to "play". There simply aren't enough players.
On the other hand, if Shadow Form gets nerfed and you can't VSF anymore, then anyone who wants to get the ZQ done must either H/H or pick up more humans. Suddenly the player pool multiplies. This is easy to see if you look at a ZQ where there's no such tool to farm and it's moderately hard to H/H - say, Gyala HM. Try getting a human team to PuG Gyala HM and to PuG Thommis HM, and the difference is leagues wide.
You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, no matter how much you want to. A farmer isn't doing PvE for the sights or the feeling of accomplishment. The guy is doing for the money. So if the run will not be profitable enough to do it anymore, the guy will NOT do it.
So the farmers will move on or adapt and bring a new cookie.
They won't run random teams and "play" it.
But, yes, you are right, I did forget about ZQuests.
If the VSF is trashed and a new cookie pops up, then once the ZQuest comes rolling into town, people will run that cookie. The farming cookie works, so people stick with it. And if you don't run it, you won't be able to get into a "farming" team. But to think that "playing" teams will pop up if there is a farming cookie is just silly, as you have proven nicely yourself. The lone player looking to "play" PvE can't get a team because no-one wants to play PvE. And if there is a new cookie, no-one will either.
If on the other hand, the VSF is trashed and the run isn't profitable enough, the farmers will move on. And the only reason why they might return is if the ZQuest is a reward enough to farm it. In which case, I'd imagine, they'll still choose a farming approach, which once again means that lone sucker won't be able to play whatever he wants.
With farmers it's their way or the highway.
So that means the farmers are out of the question.
That leaves the "players". For the "players" to play - there can be no cookie (as said above - if there is a farming cookie, they'll join that one). And that means you are left doing one of the hardest areas in the game with players that can't H/H it or have people they can bug with no suggested team composition that will work.
What do you think is the success rate of such a team?
Take the Ursan-nerf for instance.
Did people move onto "playing" the areas they farmed before with Ursan? Did a new farming cookie show up or they moved away from the areas that can't be farmed as easily OR are the farmers now "playing" in those areas?
If farmers now "play" DoA, you are right.
And if they don't, I am right.
You seem to think that the spirit spammer will be able to get into "playing" teams now. Maybe. But the point is there are very few, if any, playing teams right now. That's because most players simply hitch a ride on VSF runs. Think about it. The whole point of getting more humans is to finish the area faster. But you finish the area fastest by getting a VSF run, and it is so much easier to get a team for VSF. Why would anyone want to "play"? I'm not referring to you, the player. You've already decided to "play". But you can't find anyone else who also wants to "play". There simply aren't enough players.
On the other hand, if Shadow Form gets nerfed and you can't VSF anymore, then anyone who wants to get the ZQ done must either H/H or pick up more humans. Suddenly the player pool multiplies. This is easy to see if you look at a ZQ where there's no such tool to farm and it's moderately hard to H/H - say, Gyala HM. Try getting a human team to PuG Gyala HM and to PuG Thommis HM, and the difference is leagues wide.
You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, no matter how much you want to. A farmer isn't doing PvE for the sights or the feeling of accomplishment. The guy is doing for the money. So if the run will not be profitable enough to do it anymore, the guy will NOT do it.
So the farmers will move on or adapt and bring a new cookie.
They won't run random teams and "play" it.
But, yes, you are right, I did forget about ZQuests.
If the VSF is trashed and a new cookie pops up, then once the ZQuest comes rolling into town, people will run that cookie. The farming cookie works, so people stick with it. And if you don't run it, you won't be able to get into a "farming" team. But to think that "playing" teams will pop up if there is a farming cookie is just silly, as you have proven nicely yourself. The lone player looking to "play" PvE can't get a team because no-one wants to play PvE. And if there is a new cookie, no-one will either.
If on the other hand, the VSF is trashed and the run isn't profitable enough, the farmers will move on. And the only reason why they might return is if the ZQuest is a reward enough to farm it. In which case, I'd imagine, they'll still choose a farming approach, which once again means that lone sucker won't be able to play whatever he wants.
With farmers it's their way or the highway.
So that means the farmers are out of the question.
That leaves the "players". For the "players" to play - there can be no cookie (as said above - if there is a farming cookie, they'll join that one). And that means you are left doing one of the hardest areas in the game with players that can't H/H it or have people they can bug with no suggested team composition that will work.
What do you think is the success rate of such a team?
Take the Ursan-nerf for instance.
Did people move onto "playing" the areas they farmed before with Ursan? Did a new farming cookie show up or they moved away from the areas that can't be farmed as easily OR are the farmers now "playing" in those areas?
If farmers now "play" DoA, you are right.
And if they don't, I am right.
byteme!
Playing DoA is old.(for myself) I farm DoA now with as much efficiency as possible. If I'm not in DoA to farm then I'm not going to be there at all.
Upier does have a point.
Upier does have a point.
Life Bringing
I still don't get why people think SF is spam skills 123 and somehow win the game and make every foe explode. You all have no idea how ridiculously difficult tanking in DoA is.
People also compare ursan to SF, which is freaking lol. Ursan WAS 123 win the game and make everything explode. Ursan was BAD for the game, it made terrible players think they were pro. The level of skill required for ursan was virtually none.
Then you have the argument that anyone can do these so called "elite areas". here's a simple analogy for you: Winning a gvg is to completing an area as winning a mAT is to holding a sc record. Sure, anyone can win a gvg, but only one team can win any single mAT, just as anyone can clear uw, but only a handful can do a full clear in 8 minutes.
People also compare ursan to SF, which is freaking lol. Ursan WAS 123 win the game and make everything explode. Ursan was BAD for the game, it made terrible players think they were pro. The level of skill required for ursan was virtually none.
Then you have the argument that anyone can do these so called "elite areas". here's a simple analogy for you: Winning a gvg is to completing an area as winning a mAT is to holding a sc record. Sure, anyone can win a gvg, but only one team can win any single mAT, just as anyone can clear uw, but only a handful can do a full clear in 8 minutes.
Jeydra
@LifeBringing - OK, so the update that made Shadow Form not maintainable was also the update that split PvE / PvP. My bad. But it's a small technicality that doesn't matter. Also:
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Originally Posted by LifeBringing
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People also compare ursan to SF, which is freaking lol. Ursan WAS 123 win the game and make everything explode. Ursan was BAD for the game, it made terrible players think they were pro. The level of skill required for ursan was virtually none.
Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
Exactly, Jeydra! I know you meant to disagree with me, but if you think about it, you're basically agreeing with what I just said. It isn't fair to nerf UWSC after only a few people have gotten rich from it. A nerfing to SF will require compensatory mechanism of some sort. Once I clearly remember reading an article about how some online casino botched their code, with the result that everyone who played when the errorneous code was running made big bucks. Do you think it's fair to tell the casino, "only a few people have gotten rich from the code, not everyone! Please don't take down the code!"
This is so ridiculous you'd be brain-dead to try it. I really don't understand why you're advancing a similar argument here.
Quote: Originally Posted by upier There is no "faster than otherwise" in farming. The point of farming is to maximize your profits, so at the end of the day, there is pretty much only one way to do it. And if you aren't running that option, you're doing it wrong. The way I see it, if you want to farm, fine, but while you get more drops you don't also clear areas faster than otherwise possible. As I've said before, the obvious example of a balanced farm run is the E/Me Smite Crawler Ecto farm. You can do it faster if you bring 8 players, but you get less Ecto drops, so you solo. Another example of a balanced farm run: SS/LB with 5 players instead of 8. Would you complete the run faster with 8 players? Of course, but you get less drops, so you do it with 5. The problem, as I see it, is that Shadow Form enables players to complete areas faster than otherwise possible. VSF is the obvious example. Properly executed VSF is at least 5 times faster than clearing the dungeon the normal way, which I consider imbalanced.
I've said this before, and you must have read it, but missed the point. So I'll emphasize. Let's assume Shadow Form doesn't exist, and consider Duncan HM. How would you do the dungeon? For competent players it's not too bad, you can H/H it. With more players, a reasonable mix of damage and defense would be enough. With PuGs however, you will probably see people do the dungeon via Obsidian tanking. Down from massing permas, this is the next most effective, simple option that bypasses the problem of PuGs being bad.
Now. Do you consider Obsidian tanking farming? Perhaps, but I personally do not. The build is of comparable and perhaps even slightly slower speed to doing it via balanced. The people who do Duncan HM via Obsidian tanking aren't really farming the dungeon - I'd guess they need the dungeon for a book, the Deldrimor Armor Remnant, or whatever. So the fact that Obsidian tanking would be the next most effective method for PuGs to clear Duncan HM is irrelevant. They aren't farming.
Next. You say there will be a "fastest" method, and if you're intent on maximizing profits, you'll run that method. Probably, you are right. But again look at this case study. What is the fastest method to clear Duncan HM, assuming no Shadow Form? I don't know, but I'd hazard some balanced team involving physicals pumping out big damage, ER Infusers, Orders, or something. This will be faster than doing the dungeon via Obsidian tanking, and it will be faster than the best I can do via H/H. Here's the punchline though: it won't be too much faster. If I make no mistakes, I'd guess I can H/H Duncan HM in ~45 minutes. With a full, balanced, topspeed build, perhaps the dungeon can be done in ~30 minutes. The difference is 15 minutes. The "topspeed" method is a third faster. Compare VSF, which is at least 5x faster than the next fastest method. Also compare UWSC. What time difference are we looking at here?
Do you call the team that does Duncan HM with physicals, ER Infusers and Orders farming the dungeon? Maybe, but I don't. It is simply an option to complete the dungeon. It is not that much faster, and if you're going to switch players around etc until you have the perfect mix, you'd have spent all the time you gained in forming the team.
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Sure it takes massive farming. But you don't have to have it, you can go without if you want. To tack on to the above, my account's over 4 years old and I have 15 maxed titles. Protector, Guardian, one Cartographer title (just one), the EotN titles, SS, LB. I don't need the others. Sure I'm working towards them (as in, I open any Locked chests I find, but I don't go chest running). But I don't need them and I don't care if I don't have them.|
Originally Posted by upier
The problem is that even with the "insane amount of money coming into the game from SCs" - maxing all those titles will take ages. It won't be near impossible as it is now, if you don't massively farm, but it will still take quite long. SCs don't give you enough money to get God in a week. The amount of money SCs bring in just give you a more realistic timetable to achieve the goals in.
So what? Do you need to get God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals? Do you want to invest the time? If you don't want to invest the time, why are you so worried with the title that doesn't otherwise affect your playing abilities? Should everyone who plays Guild Wars be automatically entitled to getting GWAMM? How much effort do you think is fair?
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I'll just say what I've said a number of times:
the speed argument is something I can not argue with. I am not arguing that it's not fast. What I am saying is that this speed is actually much more in touch with the game's end-game activities. And that's why I am willing to look the other way. SF is broken, but as long as the game isn't balanced around SF and a player is able to do content without it, I am definitely in favour of keeping it in the game. A player is still able to enjoy the game even without SF, but a player that has no means of getting the resources needed to do the current end-game activities can't. And that needs fixing or a crutch needs to be in the game. Quote:
So what? Do you need to get God Walking Amongst Mere Mortals? Do you want to invest the time? If you don't want to invest the time, why are you so worried with the title that doesn't otherwise affect your playing abilities? Should everyone who plays Guild Wars be automatically entitled to getting GWAMM? How much effort do you think is fair?
As I've mentioned above and before - titles are the game's end-game content.
As I've mentioned above and before - titles are the game's end-game content.The problem is that this content is completely out of touch with the game. Take for instance the Sunspear title. This title is easily maxed if a player just vanquishes (despite the fact that I consider VQing to be farming - but that's mostly based on the stupid idea that you need to kill off every foe in the map, leaving you sometimes running around looking to a foe that will not pose a slightest threat, but you still need to take him out) Nightfall. Take the Lucky title. Or the chests. Or IDing. Or sweets. That's not something you have a reasonable way of completing. It all involves some massive farming. And as long as something like this is in the game - we'll probably see more issues spawning from it. Originally Posted by upier The problem is that this content is completely out of touch with the game. Take for instance the Sunspear title. This title is easily maxed if a player just vanquishes (despite the fact that I consider VQing to be farming - but that's mostly based on the stupid idea that you need to kill off every foe in the map, leaving you sometimes running around looking to a foe that will not pose a slightest threat, but you still need to take him out) Nightfall. Take the Lucky title. Or the chests. Or IDing. Or sweets. That's not something you have a reasonable way of completing. It all involves some massive farming. And as long as something like this is in the game - we'll probably see more issues spawning from it. |
Here's something else as well. If you want these titles, you need to farm. But you don't need to Perma. Where is Shadow Form entering into this equation? Is Shadow Form the only way to earn GW gold?
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Farmers do not want to finish the dungeon.
Farmers want the reward.
But they don't want any reward. They want the reward which has the best reward/difficulty ratio.
And if the reward/difficulty ratio changes for something like SCs in making the area harder to farm - people might just move onto a thing that has a better ratio.
These are guys that want to maximize their profit.
And to do so they don't care where or who on they do that.
I on the other hand, want to complete a specific dungeon for my title.
And not only that, I want to complete it on my ritualist or mesmer.
Can you now see the difference between a "player" and a "farmer"?
We are two completely different groups, that just happen to come together in certain areas.
Or better yet, clash. Everyone wants the reward. I've only very rarely done something just for the thrill of it - one such example for example is H/H'ing Eternal Grove HM. It's fun, it's fast-paced, and every time I do it I celebrate how I can do something so many other people have trouble with. But almost every other thing I do I do for the reward. Take away the end chest from Duncan HM and I doubt I'll ever step into the dungeon again. Does that make me a farmer?
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Originally Posted by kanuks
Farmers want the reward.
But they don't want any reward. They want the reward which has the best reward/difficulty ratio.
And if the reward/difficulty ratio changes for something like SCs in making the area harder to farm - people might just move onto a thing that has a better ratio.
These are guys that want to maximize their profit.
And to do so they don't care where or who on they do that.
I on the other hand, want to complete a specific dungeon for my title.
And not only that, I want to complete it on my ritualist or mesmer.
Can you now see the difference between a "player" and a "farmer"?
We are two completely different groups, that just happen to come together in certain areas.
Or better yet, clash. Everyone wants the reward. I've only very rarely done something just for the thrill of it - one such example for example is H/H'ing Eternal Grove HM. It's fun, it's fast-paced, and every time I do it I celebrate how I can do something so many other people have trouble with. But almost every other thing I do I do for the reward. Take away the end chest from Duncan HM and I doubt I'll ever step into the dungeon again. Does that make me a farmer?
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So if they nerf SF you would lose all faith in A-net and quit? So the simple thoughts of A-Net nerfing your favourite overpowered skill would makes you quit. Then I suggest you quit already. Also that argument about creating a bigger gap between elitist and casual player is ridiculous. Right now the gap between them keeps increasing because of SF, if they nerf it, it will at least prevent the gap from increasing every days? Are you just stupid?|
Originally Posted by upier
The issue is that players aren't rewarded for "playing" the game.
They are rewarded for "farming" the game. And as long as that is in place, the players that want to "play" the game will be left out. It just doesn't make sense to "play" the game if you want to go after the end-game content. Because you just aren't competitive. And that's why I feel this is the core issue that needs to be looked at instead of just trashing SF. And then we might see players returning or at least not choosing to "farm" the game in the numbers we see now. There are advantages for playing the game as opposed to farming. The obvious one is that it's less tedious. The problem as I see it right now is that farming is so much faster than playing that the speed factor outweighs everything else. Tell me, if ANet removes Shadow Form, what is the farmer going to do? kanuks
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Originally Posted by traversc
Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net. There will be fallout from nerfing SF, but I see a compromise as a possibility. To compensate, A.net could reduce money titles by a 2-3x. Or increase ecto and rare weapon drop rate by 3-4x. I think that would satisfy both sides. |
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That's a fair argument. I wouldn't mind if they buffed SF to be easily maintainable on other primaries, or even gave other primaries similar skills.
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So if they nerf SF you would lose all faith in A-net and quit? So the simple thoughts of A-Net nerfing your favourite overpowered skill would makes you quit. Then I suggest you quit already. Also that argument about creating a bigger gap between elitist and casual player is ridiculous. Right now the gap between them keeps increasing because of SF, if they nerf it, it will at least prevent the gap from increasing every days? Are you just stupid?
What the hell are you talking about? The only reason there already ISN'T a huge gap is because there exists a farm that isn't insanely boring, and that is UWSC and FOWSC and to a lesser extent, VSF.
If you are not using SF, that is your choice. You are a casual player. You're likely not going to be able to max all your titles. There are other farms that don't require SF, but from what I see, most of them are boring. So why do them when you can do UWSC which isn't brain dead boring?
You are arguing that SF needs to be trashed because it's too fast.
And what I am arguing is that it's this speed that makes SF in touch with the end-game demands of PvE.
Yes, there are additional options. But just as you don't want to see them get trashed, because they aren't fast enough, that's the EXACT same reason why I don't care for them. They aren't fast enough to be in touch with the moronic PvE ideas.
You're just looking at the glass being half full, and I, bored with the crap A.Net keeps throwing out, am looking at the glass as half empty.
That's why I don't mind SF being in the game, despite everyone and their mother being able to see how bad it is. It feels better for the game, unless of course we see a fix for the issue that is causing something as broken as SF to be actually considered as "not so bad".
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
Everyone wants the reward. I've only very rarely done something just for the thrill of it - one such example for example is H/H'ing Eternal Grove HM. It's fun, it's fast-paced, and every time I do it I celebrate how I can do something so many other people have trouble with. But almost every other thing I do I do for the reward. Take away the end chest from Duncan HM and I doubt I'll ever step into the dungeon again. Does that make me a farmer?If you are not using SF, that is your choice. You are a casual player. You're likely not going to be able to max all your titles. There are other farms that don't require SF, but from what I see, most of them are boring. So why do them when you can do UWSC which isn't brain dead boring?
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I've bolded some parts.|
Once I clearly remember reading an article about how some online casino botched their code, with the result that everyone who played when the errorneous code was running made big bucks. Do you think it's fair to tell the casino, "only a few people have gotten rich from the code, not everyone! Please don't take down the code!" This is so ridiculous you'd be brain-dead to try it. I really don't understand why you're advancing a similar argument here. Are you honestly comparing this to a real life scenario with real money? Real money != guild wars gold. There is an unlimited supply of GW gold. No one loses gold when you pick it up from a monster drop. If everyone farms out an area, then prices of items will drop to such a level that it actually isn't any more profitable than other areas. That is exactly what we've seen with UWSC. It isn't any more profitable than other farms. On the other hand, suddenly stopping the supply WILL have devastating and sudden consequences on ecto prices, high end weapon prices and the distribution of wealth.
upier
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
By the way I don't mean to boast, but I rarely farm - don't have a Perma as well - and yet have well over 2 million GW gold in cash, ZKeys, Ectos and Ambraces, and I have no idea what to do with it. Sure it takes massive farming. But you don't have to have it, you can go without if you want. To tack on to the above, my account's over 4 years old and I have 15 maxed titles. Protector, Guardian, one Cartographer title (just one), the EotN titles, SS, LB. I don't need the others. Sure I'm working towards them (as in, I open any Locked chests I find, but I don't go chest running). But I don't need them and I don't care if I don't have them. Here's something else as well. If you want these titles, you need to farm. But you don't need to Perma. Where is Shadow Form entering into this equation? Is Shadow Form the only way to earn GW gold? |
You are arguing that SF needs to be trashed because it's too fast.
And what I am arguing is that it's this speed that makes SF in touch with the end-game demands of PvE.
Yes, there are additional options. But just as you don't want to see them get trashed, because they aren't fast enough, that's the EXACT same reason why I don't care for them. They aren't fast enough to be in touch with the moronic PvE ideas.
You're just looking at the glass being half full, and I, bored with the crap A.Net keeps throwing out, am looking at the glass as half empty.
That's why I don't mind SF being in the game, despite everyone and their mother being able to see how bad it is. It feels better for the game, unless of course we see a fix for the issue that is causing something as broken as SF to be actually considered as "not so bad".
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As long as the "player" is able to complete certain objectives, it matter much less if the best option is used. Other factors play a much bigger role here.
That's why people come here and bitch that they aren't accepted into farming teams despite their oh-so-perfect build being completely equal to what the team is looking for.
Farming is more of all or nothing kind of thing.
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There are advantages for playing the game as opposed to farming. The obvious one is that it's less tedious. The problem as I see it right now is that farming is so much faster than playing that the speed factor outweighs everything else.
Absolutely!
My guess is that a player would rather do something fun if that would still lead to being able to achieve certain goals (as in titles), rather than something he hates.
The problem is that the way current goals are defined, things that you and me consider fun do not lead to achieving those goals.
Or, better yet, not fast enough.
OK, so you don't like that example. Let's try something just as ridiculous. Suppose one day an incredible bug surfaces, such that you can turn in the Cathedral of Flames reward as many times as you want, without having to redo the dungeon (i.e. the game doesn't detect that it's already given you the reward). Obviously the people who're online while the bug is running will make big bucks, like a million an hour or probably more. Now are you going to tell ANet "please don't fix the bug, only the few people who happened to be online have earned money, not everyone has, give them a chance"?My guess is that a player would rather do something fun if that would still lead to being able to achieve certain goals (as in titles), rather than something he hates.
The problem is that the way current goals are defined, things that you and me consider fun do not lead to achieving those goals.
Or, better yet, not fast enough.
The difference to the casual player? None. But there's no effect on the casual players now. If there were as many of them as you claim, they would have no trouble finding a group with each other, even AMONG the masses of UWSCers and guild groups. There is no law that says they have to stop looking for a PUG just because some asshat says "LOL Randomway noob GTFO."
The "casual" players are not interested in elite areas. That's why they're "casual." They don't want to spend two hours DOING elite areas, much less waiting around for two hours hoping they find a group to even start.
The only ones who might be effected are the Anti-farming crusaders who, unfortunately, have the exact same problem: they QQ because they claim the UWSC keeps them from finding pugs when, in fact, there just aren't enough of them who want to do the area. If there were, they could easily:
a) ignore the farmers and build their pugs, since there are "so many" of them
b) join a guild that plays "balanced"/randomway/BYOB/whatever (and don't give me that crap about "social" guilds. I don't qq that Anet should remove Rank because I can't HA since I opt to be in a PvE guild)
c) "Unofficially" designate a district/locale for pugging, much as Drazach Speed Clear goes to Europe-French D1.
Unfortunately, they've tried doing none of these things. Their objections are that they don't like the way OTHER people are playing, whether or not it affects them (and it does not), and they want to cry about it.
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The "casual" players are not interested in elite areas. That's why they're "casual." They don't want to spend two hours DOING elite areas, much less waiting around for two hours hoping they find a group to even start.
The only ones who might be effected are the Anti-farming crusaders who, unfortunately, have the exact same problem: they QQ because they claim the UWSC keeps them from finding pugs when, in fact, there just aren't enough of them who want to do the area. If there were, they could easily:
a) ignore the farmers and build their pugs, since there are "so many" of them
b) join a guild that plays "balanced"/randomway/BYOB/whatever (and don't give me that crap about "social" guilds. I don't qq that Anet should remove Rank because I can't HA since I opt to be in a PvE guild)
c) "Unofficially" designate a district/locale for pugging, much as Drazach Speed Clear goes to Europe-French D1.
Unfortunately, they've tried doing none of these things. Their objections are that they don't like the way OTHER people are playing, whether or not it affects them (and it does not), and they want to cry about it.
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Not to mention that it's easy to imagine that there would be more casual players in toa to form balanced groups if the SF farmers weren't there.
See above. It's also easy to imagine pink unicorn ponies delivering me scotch and naked women nightly. Doesn't mean it has f***all to do with any possibility of reality. Quote:
Asked and answered. There's no point forming groups when you can just hitch a ride on a farm run.
Quote: Quote: On the other hand, suddenly stopping the supply WILL have devastating and sudden consequences on ecto prices, high end weapon prices and the distribution of wealth. |
Is it just me or is that totally ridiculous?
Quote: Originally Posted by upier And what I am arguing is that it's this speed that makes SF in touch with the end-game demands of PvE.
And answer the slippery slope argument. Is a farm that yields 1 ecto / hour balanced? What about 10 ectos / hour? 20 ectos / hour? Where do you draw the line?
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Originally Posted by upier
Sorry, I made it clearer in Riverside that rewards still plays a role, even to a "player". But the question is - do you do the task at hand on your ele EVEN if there are better class options? Or do you switch to THAT option? As long as the "player" is able to complete certain objectives, it matter much less if the best option is used. Other factors play a much bigger role here. That's why people come here and bitch that they aren't accepted into farming teams despite their oh-so-perfect build being completely equal to what the team is looking for. Farming is more of all or nothing kind of thing. I do it on my Elementalist even if there are better class options because I only have one PvE character. Quote:
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