SF Argument

Life Bringing

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Fissure of Woe

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Tbh, since all of you are complaining about UW being so easy, an SF nerf will do "nothing". Absolutely "nothing". Bars will be reverted to obby flesh tanks and times will still be ~25 minutes. See here.

Ugh

Ugh

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

R/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing View Post
Tbh, since all of you are complaining about UW being so easy, an SF nerf will do "nothing". Absolutely "nothing". Bars will be reverted to obby flesh tanks and times will still be ~25 minutes. See here.
That build also makes use of an SF sin.

And I'm kind of on the fence about an SF nerf. And by "on the fence," I mean Linsey said she didn't want to nerf it so too bad for me. :S

Quote:
Originally Posted by Me
I've changed my views from wanting an SF nerf (due to the fact that Linsey said she didn't want to nerf SF) to wanting an UWSC nerf. Changing gate mechanics, NPC behavior, or the addition of skills such as Leech Signet, Well of the Profane, and Signet of Humility might do nicely.

Life Bringing

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugh View Post
That build also makes use of an SF sin. It depends what kind of SF nerf. If it's just reverted to before there were any buffs to it, the build will work fine because it relies on arcane echo to maintain SF.

Coney

Coney

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Aug 2008

Without reading this thread I must state, I hate my sin and I hate SF. talk about milk-walking for free self-strokes.

_Nihilist_

_Nihilist_

Will Bull's Strike for $!

Join Date: Apr 2006

Isle of the Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by A11Eur0
...so the two-man 600/smite team is MORE POWERFUL and MORE ABUSABLE than a single or two-man SF team.
Now you try to divert the argument against Shadow Form maintainability by pointing out that it takes 16 skills and 2 players to run 600/Smite? Sometimes even 3 players for certain areas?

Stop trying to misdirect, please.

Quote: Originally Posted by traversc There are basically no upsides to killing SF, and there are quite a bit of downsides. For one, it would close off UW and FOW to the large majority of players. It isn't easy to get a decent balanced team capable of completing UW HM. As it is now, anyone could easily make an assassin (or necro!) and get into UWSC in less than 10-20 hours flat. First, it wouldn't close off UW and FoW to the large majority of players. Anyone can access UW and FoW. Just because they can't complete it in 20 minutes doesn't mean they don't have access to it.

Second, it might not be as easy to get a decent balanced team together, but you can find them. If SF wasn't around, more balanced teams would be going into both UW and FoW. Hell, even if it was to cause 600/Smite teams or 55/SS teams, or Obsidian Flesh teams to go back in, that's more variety than 7 SF Assassins and 1 Vale Monk or Necro.

Third, sure, anyone can make a Sin or a Necro and get into an UWSC, just not in equal numbers. Your argument is flawed, because the ratio is 7:1. If you don't want to make a Sin, or if you would rather play a Necro, you have less chance to get in because there isn't room for more than one Necro in the SC.

Quote: 600/Smite doesn't circumvent game mechanics to the extent of Shadow Form. Nor do all 600/Smite builds use Spell Breaker, which only grants targeted spell immunity, not immunity vs. attacks. And I've never seen a SF bar that requires two skillbars or more to work.

Life Bringing

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost Dog View Post
Ok I'm done with this thread, the SF defenders aren't even reading.
Originally Posted by traversc
Ecto prices and high-end weapons prices would also skyrocket, making them and elite armor completely unattainable for most players. Ecto prices when the game launched were ~13k/ea if what my friends who beta'd tell me are correct. Within a year of game release, before Factions had even hit shelves, Ecto was ~9k/ea. I mean, come on. Ecto has no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any Monster that can drop it. WHY SHOULD IT NOT BE EXPENSIVE?

And yeah, High-End Weapons and Elite Armor would be harder to get, but not unattainable. I played for almost 3 years before I bought my first set of Elite Armor. Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I had better things to spend my money on than armor that looked different, but functioned the same, as max AL Non-Elite Armor.

They are High-End/Rare/Elite for a reason. You earn them. They are NOT unattainable, they just take effort to get. That's like saying a McDonald's drive thru employee should be able to drive the same vehicle, have the same house, wear the same clothing and jewelry, and have the same posessions as a neurosurgeon easily. One says "Do you want to Super Size your Combo today?" while the other one has to treat and operate on the central nervous system of the human body. Which takes more effort? Which takes more research, training, and commitment? That's the one who earns more, because they have the more difficult task.

Life Bringing

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong View Post
Now you try to divert the argument against Shadow Form maintainability by pointing out that it takes 16 skills and 2 players to run 600/Smite? Sometimes even 3 players for certain areas?

Stop trying to misdirect, please. And yet people make more money, faster with 600/smite, and can do more areas than sf.

Ghost Dog

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2008

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing View Post
Tbh, since all of you are complaining about UW being so easy, an SF nerf will do "nothing". Absolutely "nothing". Bars will be reverted to obby flesh tanks and times will still be ~25 minutes. See here. That build has SF and two ursans?

_Nihilist_

_Nihilist_

Will Bull's Strike for $!

Join Date: Apr 2006

Isle of the Dead

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
And yet people make more money, faster with 600/smite, and can do more areas than sf.
You're a RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing autist.

Quote:
600/Smite doesn't circumvent game mechanics to the extent of Shadow Form. Nor do all 600/Smite builds use Spell Breaker, which only grants targeted spell immunity, not immunity vs. attacks. And I've never seen a SF bar that requires two skillbars or more to work. Umm...
1
2
3
Now correct me if i'm wrong, but aren't these 3 random examples of things a perma sin can't do alone? A lone perma can't do deep, urgoz, fow, doa, or a variety of other areas solo either now could it?

superraptors

superraptors

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Dec 2008

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sorry no normal people want to sit on the chair and spend 3hours + to clear an area, if you would like it i suggest wow

tuna-fish_sushi

tuna-fish_sushi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

California

E/A

I enjoy and support SF and would like it to remain as is. It brings people together, as there isn't much worthwhile soloing with SF. It makes anet happy that people buy all the campaigns. Which is probably why they nerfed ursan but are letting SF stay.

However, @superraptors, sure no normal person wants to spend 3 hours clearing an area... but areas such as UW are an Elite Area and therefore are for the more hardcore players.

If there is a way that "normal" players can complete an Elite Area efficiently, they should be allowed to do it. Its not abusing anything, Anet knows full well how SF works and for now they are allowing it.

Sorry, to you hardcore/elite players who worked hard farming before SF to get all your FoW armors. But there should be a chance for the average player to get a chance to get rich and feel good.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Quote:
It's supposed to be that way. UW is an elite area and HM is Hard Mode. It wasn't meant for every average player to hop on in right off the boat from Cantha.

Call me elitist, but I feel high-end weapons/armor should be reserved for above average players.
You're an elitist.

First of all, barring a large part of the game from the majority of players is an insanely bad business decision and will never happen.

Secondly, this game is at an end, so there's no harm in letting players get cool items. There is just no benefit in nerfing SF to anybody, period.

If anything needs to be nerfed, it's the 600/smite dungeon runners making 100-200k per hour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrael
First, it wouldn't close off UW and FoW to the large majority of players. Anyone can access UW and FoW. Just because they can't complete it in 20 minutes doesn't mean they don't have access to it. Semantics.

Quote:
Third, sure, anyone can make a Sin or a Necro and get into an UWSC, just not in equal numbers. Your argument is flawed, because the ratio is 7:1. If you don't want to make a Sin, or if you would rather play a Necro, you have less chance to get in because there isn't room for more than one Necro in the SC. My argument is flawed because there aren't as many slots for necros...? How is that even relevant? My argument was that anyone can make a new character and get into UWSC in less than 10-20 hours.

Quote:
Ecto prices when the game launched were ~13k/ea if what my friends who beta'd tell me are correct. Within a year of game release, before Factions had even hit shelves, Ecto was ~9k/ea. I mean, come on. Ecto has no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any Monster that can drop it. WHY SHOULD IT NOT BE EXPENSIVE?

And yeah, High-End Weapons and Elite Armor would be harder to get, but not unattainable. I played for almost 3 years before I bought my first set of Elite Armor. Not because I couldn't afford it, but because I had better things to spend my money on than armor that looked different, but functioned the same, as max AL Non-Elite Armor.

They are High-End/Rare/Elite for a reason. Your argument is basically "QQ I spent so much time getting my FoW set, everyone should have to spend that much time too!" Sorry, but I'm unsympathetic. I see no benefit in making high end items difficult to obtain. I don't really care if more players have access to e-blades and FoW sets as it doesn't affect me. I don't see why anyone else should care either, unless, as previously mentioned, you are an elitist and want your FoW armor to represent bigger e-peen.

If that's the case, then I can truly say I do know where you're coming from. But let's be honest, it's a very shallow argument.

Rampage

Rampage

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Apr 2006

ITT: Bad players who cannot complete fairly easy areas without broken skills calling people who use common sense elitists.

It amazes me how horrible most of you are. <3

A11Eur0

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Apr 2005

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rampage View Post
ITT: Bad players who cannot complete fairly easy areas without broken skills calling people who use common sense elitists.

It amazes me how horrible most of you are. <3 It amazes me how you can jump to such a conclusion based off of very little evidence that doesn't solely exist in your little mind.

We don't have to be bad players to defend something that has no need to be nerfed because it poses no non-economic threat to anyone who chooses not to use it. If it were able to be maintained in PvP again I'd agree that it would need to be nerfed...but that's not the case. it's PvE. Instanced PvE. Therefore, only the people using the skill and the people in that person's team are directly affected. If you feel that you can't get a group unless you use it...that's not their problem. It's not true, either...I always see people making groups for balanced through UW/FoW. I've gone along on some of those groups as well, and we completed....in 3 HOURS. Not much dying, just systematically going through the areas doing the quests. It wasn't a speed run, we weren't rushing, and we didn't have the most efficient team build and communication. Forming a better team with vent and better synergy would make it go faster, for sure, but once you streamline it enough it becomes just another gimmick build whether it uses SF or not.

In short, what people need to do is simply stop being concerned with how other people enjoy their game, and just focus on enjoying their own. Find like-minded people. Join groups. Get stuff done. Stop raging on people who like to do things differently. The only reason that should hurt you is if you wanted to stroke your e-peen with the most expensive, exclusive stuff possible. Go to WoW for that, because there's only so much "1337-ness" available in GW. The game is almost done, allow people to get what they want if they want it.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier View Post
You shouldn't be asking yourself if you can't get a non-SF group.
What you need to be asking yourself is if an area is possible without SF. If it's not - THEN players "playing" PvE can NOT ignore it. And in that case it does affect your gameplay.
What you are currently arguing though is that you can't "play" an area because every other player there is a farmer and they "farm" the area. While that is true, that's a simple observation on the state of the current PvE and not SF's fault.

Just think of it this way: you kill off SF and the people doing Thomy still won't take you in UNLESS you'll have a very specific build and class.
IF they'll still be farming that!
Thommis HM is accessible to competent players without Shadow Form. I can H/H it. For the not-so-good players, it's extremely difficult. I'm sitting in this (kinda bad) PvE alliance where the players were discussing the recent Thommis ZQ and commented how "fun" it will be.

That's not the point. You can't ignore the fact that no matter how you choose to do Thommis HM, you're doing it so much slower than someone can via VSF. Why would anyone spend an hour to do Thommis, possibly risking deaths and wipes, when they can finish in 10 minutes with VSF? Have you tried getting a team together to do Thommis HM without using SF?

If there were no SF, then you can get other human players. Thommis HM might be extremely difficult for not-so-good players, but - pardon the arrogance - for someone as accomplished as me at dealing with HM dungeons, I can compensate for subpar builds. A couple at least. I've gotten PuG teammates who don't have good builds or good heroes. Then I tell them to drop heroes and I bring henchmen. I don't have to ask them to change builds, but I can still finish [insert area].

If there were no SF, VSF will probably drop off the radar, and PuGs will probably move on to Obsidian tanking to do Slaver's HM. That's OK. Doing Duncan HM for example via Obsidian tanking isn't all that much faster (if it is faster at all) than doing it via balanced builds. If you can get players to trust you, you'll also be able to get people to do balanced with you. With SF however, nobody would want to balanced because it is simply so much faster with Shadow Form.

You write that these PuGs are "farming" and not "playing" PvE, which is why you can't find PuGs for anything other than SC. If you say this ... then you're wrong. I spend a fair bit of time doing Slaver's again and again and again, and sometimes when I pass by Umbral Grotto I see some lonely person going "LFG Forge" for example. Why would anyone want to farm Forge? Nobody would, this is "playing" PvE. Whenever there's a Thommis ZQ for example, you might see "Spirit spammer LFG Thommis". Do you think he's farming instead of playing? Before I learned to H/H Duncan HM, I would also pass by Umbral Grotto looking for a team to do it with. Again, "playing" PvE, not farming it. Groups exist, although they are rare. They were rare before SF. With the advent of SF though, it's gotten so hard to get a team, you might as well buy a run ... or teach yourself to H/H it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing And yet people make more money, faster with 600/smite, and can do more areas than sf.
600 / Smite is another build that I want nerfed. If nothing else, nerf till a real team can match its kill speed. After all, why bother about doing CoF the front way when you can just hire a runner, let the run pay off the cost, finish faster than you would otherwise and still be able to go AFK during the run?

Quote:
Originally Posted by traversc There are basically no upsides to killing SF, and there are quite a bit of downsides. For one, it would close off UW and FOW to the large majority of players. It isn't easy to get a decent balanced team capable of completing UW HM. As it is now, anyone could easily make an assassin (or necro!) and get into UWSC in less than 10-20 hours flat. Do you think SC is a good way of experiencing an area? If you do UWSC enough times, do you think you'll be able to form a balanced team to clear UW HM at first try? Anyone is capable of completing VSF if they roll an Echo RoJ or something, but if you ask them to take you through Thommis HM with 6 heroes + 2 humans, do you think they will manage without one of the humans playing Perma?

Quote:
Originally Posted by A11Eur0
You're the accusers of the invincibility of SF: name me the areas that have absolutely zero counters to SF either in the form of PBAoE, signets, non-targeted enchantment removal(and no, I don't mean chilblains). I'm sure I could come up with an area if I cared enough, but whatever - let's try a different question instead. Name me areas where the counters to SF actually exist in sufficient quantity / danger to actually kill you, through a Monk two aggro screens away casting Heal Party.

Quote:
Originally Posted by A11Eur0
In short, what people need to do is simply stop being concerned with how other people enjoy their game, and just focus on enjoying their own. Find like-minded people. Join groups. Get stuff done. Stop raging on people who like to do things differently. The only reason that should hurt you is if you wanted to stroke your e-penis with the most expensive, exclusive stuff possible. Go to WoW for that, because there's only so much "1337-ness" available in GW. The game is almost done, allow people to get what they want if they want it. Good idea. Next time you go to Umbral Grotto, find 7 people willing to do Thommis HM without resorting to SF, and I'll agree it can be done. Far as I can see though, it can't.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
Thommis HM is accessible to competent players without Shadow Form. I can H/H it. For the not-so-good players, it's extremely difficult. I'm sitting in this (kinda bad) PvE alliance where the players were discussing the recent Thommis ZQ and commented how "fun" it will be.

That's not the point. You can't ignore the fact that no matter how you choose to do Thommis HM, you're doing it so much slower than someone can via VSF. Why would anyone spend an hour to do Thommis, possibly risking deaths and wipes, when they can finish in 10 minutes with VSF? Have you tried getting a team together to do Thommis HM without using SF?

If there were no SF, then you can get other human players. Thommis HM might be extremely difficult for not-so-good players, but - pardon the arrogance - for someone as accomplished as me at dealing with HM dungeons, I can compensate for subpar builds. A couple at least. I've gotten PuG teammates who don't have good builds or good heroes. Then I tell them to drop heroes and I bring henchmen. I don't have to ask them to change builds, but I can still finish [insert area].

If there were no SF, VSF will probably drop off the radar, and PuGs will probably move on to Obsidian tanking to do Slaver's HM. That's OK. Doing Duncan HM for example via Obsidian tanking isn't all that much faster (if it is faster at all) than doing it via balanced builds. If you can get players to trust you, you'll also be able to get people to do balanced with you. With SF however, nobody would want to balanced because it is simply so much faster with Shadow Form.
Ask yourself what the motivation behind "farming" PvE is.
And then ask yourself what the motivation behind "playing" PvE is.
What you are describing here equals "farming" PvE.

The problem is that farming completely took over PvE and we are pretty much unable to play the game for any other reason than maximizing our profit. Most of us farm PvE these days. I am currently having the BIGGEST issue playing an Inspirational Curser, despite this being probably my favourite combo in the game. And my problems with it do not come from the fact that I'd be unable to complete what I want - they come from the fact I am trained to believe that I should run something just because it's faster even though I don't enjoy it even remotely as much as I'd enjoy the above mentioned mesmer.
Simply put - why would you want to play something sub-par?
Because you'd be having fun. And the simple fact that you are not performing on the top level does not matter because the game is designed to allow people to win despite failing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
You write that these PuGs are "farming" and not "playing" PvE, which is why you can't find PuGs for anything other than SC. If you say this ... then you're wrong. I spend a fair bit of time doing Slaver's again and again and again, and sometimes when I pass by Umbral Grotto I see some lonely person going "LFG Forge" for example. Why would anyone want to farm Forge? Nobody would, this is "playing" PvE. Whenever there's a Thommis ZQ for example, you might see "Spirit spammer LFG Thommis". Do you think he's farming instead of playing? Before I learned to H/H Duncan HM, I would also pass by Umbral Grotto looking for a team to do it with. Again, "playing" PvE, not farming it. Groups exist, although they are rare. They were rare before SF. With the advent of SF though, it's gotten so hard to get a team, you might as well buy a run ... or teach yourself to H/H it. Except for the bolded part, which is in complete contradiction with everything else you posted in this quoted part, that's kinda exactly what I said.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
The problem is that farming completely took over PvE and we are pretty much unable to play the game for any other reason than maximizing our profit.
Verily. We play to maximize profit. But look at VSF for example. You spend maybe 5 minutes to put together a team, and then clear Thommis HM with minimal difficulty after ... maybe another 5 minutes.

Against that, you could put together a full team of 8 human players with all the most powerful, arguably imbalanced PvE skills like Save Yourselves! and Ether Renewal. You'd clear Thommis HM with no difficulty alright. But you will take longer than 5 minutes. A lot longer than 5 minutes. What gives?

Why should VSF be so much faster than anything else you can do, and requiring so much less effort? Why should 600 / smite be able to clear CoF faster with just one source of damage than another team utilizing 6 different damage sources? I believe that farming should be possible, but anyone farming is aiming to maximize drops, not to maximize kill speed. If someone 600 / smites CoF and earns 10k gold from his accompanying "passengers", well and good, but he should do it slower than another person doing CoF with 7 other players who are actually wading into the fight.

An example of a balanced farm run: the E/Me Sandstorm + Earthquake + Aftershock build to farm Ectos off Smite Crawlers in the UW. Can you do the run faster with 8 players? Yes you can, for obvious reasons. But you get less Ectos per player, which is why you go it solo.
An example of an imbalanced farm run: VSF. Properly executed this is by far the fastest way to clear Thommis HM. It has enough redundancy to be faster even with 6 players instead of 8, for example.

Shadow Form is the cornerstone of a lot of farming runs, so it is the automatic target for nerfs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
Except for the bolded part, which is in complete contradiction with everything else you posted in this quoted part, that's kinda exactly what I said. So you agree that it is impossible to ignore the fact that a superior, easier to assemble build exists?

Aldric

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2007

[IG]

R/

I'm for either nerfing SF into the stone age or nerfing the elite areas so that SF users get reamed hard.

I have no problem with people earning oodles of cash or having the shinyest epeen items but i find it very sad that the supposed Elitest areas in the game are run in 20 mins because of 1 very bad skill mechanic.

These areas are supposed to be the most difficult to complete and they should take a bit of preparation and a couple of hours to complete.If you cannot manage that then frankly tough luck , you have no divine right to have easy access to every single area in the game and neither should there be a mechanic that allows you to face mash your keyboard while invincible to clear them.

FWIW I am not being elitist about it, i have not done most of the elite areas as of yet but when my guildies get around to it we will do, without SF

Shasgaliel

Shasgaliel

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2008

[bomb]

all those SF, 55, 600/smite discussions just play on my nerves. I would not touch SF instead I would put a mob of 4 aatxes accompanied by 5 dying nighthmares at the entry (spawning point) of the area. If they survive they can farm...

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
Verily. We play to maximize profit. But look at VSF for example. You spend maybe 5 minutes to put together a team, and then clear Thommis HM with minimal difficulty after ... maybe another 5 minutes.

Against that, you could put together a full team of 8 human players with all the most powerful, arguably imbalanced PvE skills like Save Yourselves! and Ether Renewal. You'd clear Thommis HM with no difficulty alright. But you will take longer than 5 minutes. A lot longer than 5 minutes. What gives?

Why should VSF be so much faster than anything else you can do, and requiring so much less effort? Why should 600 / smite be able to clear CoF faster with just one source of damage than another team utilizing 6 different damage sources? I believe that farming should be possible, but anyone farming is aiming to maximize drops, not to maximize kill speed. If someone 600 / smites CoF and earns 10k gold from his accompanying "passengers", well and good, but he should do it slower than another person doing CoF with 7 other players who are actually wading into the fight.

An example of a balanced farm run: the E/Me Sandstorm + Earthquake + Aftershock build to farm Ectos off Smite Crawlers in the UW. Can you do the run faster with 8 players? Yes you can, for obvious reasons. But you get less Ectos per player, which is why you go it solo.
An example of an imbalanced farm run: VSF. Properly executed this is by far the fastest way to clear Thommis HM. It has enough redundancy to be faster even with 6 players instead of 8, for example.

Shadow Form is the cornerstone of a lot of farming runs, so it is the automatic target for nerfs.
Like I said, I can not argue with the speed argument.
Still, I am willing to look past it because it's this speed that enables to counter some crap that was put into this game. There are certain things in this game that demand a LOT of money and time. And the normal speed of gaining money/or other things isn't sufficient.
So this improved speed helps negate the failure of the above mentioned out of touch with reality crap that A.Net put into this game.
Tone down some of this crap so that it will be achievable by normal play and the crutch function of farming is no more. The problem is that I don't see this happening.
I don't see A.Net lowering the max level for Luxon. I don't see them lowering Lucky/Unlucky. Chests. Zpoints. ....
And that's why I'd rather have this stupid crutch in the game.

This isn't game theory and what is good for Game X.
This is just looking realistically at GW that we have now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
So you agree that it is impossible to ignore the fact that a superior, easier to assemble build exists? Like I said - if you are farming that area - then it's impossible to ignore that. And you don't want to ignore it! It doesn't matter if you don't like playing SF. You WILL play it because you put maximizing your profit above all else. You don't care that you aren't playing your super cute warrior. And you don't care that you can't bring your all time favourite skills.
You care about getting as much money as fast as possible.

If you are "playing" it though - then like I also said - it's very much possible to ignore it. What you can't ignore though is that there aren't many people like you. But if you nerf SF and unless spirit spamming becomes the best option, the spammer that wants to "play" Thomy will still be shouting into thin air.
The guy will still be able to ignore the best option, but still won't be able to ignore that nobody wants to "play" with him.
So this obviously isn't a SF (or Ursan, or whatever will come after SF) problem.
It's a game problem.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
Still, I am willing to look past it because it's this speed that enables to counter some crap that was put into this game. There are certain things in this game that demand a LOT of money and time. And the normal speed of gaining money/or other things isn't sufficient.
So this improved speed helps negate the failure of the above mentioned out of touch with reality crap that A.Net put into this game.
Tone down some of this crap so that it will be achievable by normal play and the crutch function of farming is no more. The problem is that I don't see this happening.
I don't see A.Net lowering the max level for Luxon. I don't see them lowering Lucky/Unlucky. Chests. Zpoints. ....
And that's why I'd rather have this stupid crutch in the game.
Is your argument to not nerf SF, "SF lets you reach all these max titles quicker"?

No offense but I think that's a really weak argument. Let's accept that maxing all these stuff is crap to begin with - I don't agree with that statement, but you proposed it and let's accept it. Now ask the obvious question: do you think it's a good idea to meet crap with more crap? I don't.

What's more, grind in GW is a lot less significant than other MMOs. You do not have to grind higher levels, or to grind more powerful weapons. What do you need to grind that could affect you? Luxon, Kurz, Lightbringer, Sunspear, EotN title tracks, etc. Not all that important, and they've gotten a lot easier to max with update after update making it easier. You get to, what, R6 Norn just completing the campaign? Also, even without maxing all that you are still plenty effective.

What's even more, the places with most Permas - VSF, UWSC, etc - have nothing to do with maxing those titles. Do you think people do VSF to max Deldrimor, or to farm Voltaic Spears?

I cannot believe your argument that removing this "crutch" would also mean less farming. If everyone could just walk to the nearest merchant and buy a set of Obsidian armor for 500 gold, then yeah there would be no more farming. But there would also be no game. Agree? I certainly think so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
If you are "playing" it though - then like I also said - it's very much possible to ignore it. What you can't ignore though is that there aren't many people like you. But if you nerf SF and unless spirit spamming becomes the best option, the spammer that wants to "play" Thomy will still be shouting into thin air.
The guy will still be able to ignore the best option, but still won't be able to ignore that nobody wants to "play" with him.
So this obviously isn't a SF (or Ursan, or whatever will come after SF) problem.
It's a game problem. If SF is nerfed, the guy going "Spirit Spammer LF Thommis HM" will have a much easier time getting a group, especially during ZQ days (which is otherwise the only reason to do Thommis HM). It doesn't have to be the "best" option. Spirit spamming falls into the broad class of damage builds, and just about any mix of damage builds works. So long as he has a good build and / or a good attitude, I'd pick him up. If you're unconvinced, think about this from the viewpoint of the team leader.

You're looking to form a team with firm defense and enough offense to overpower the Stone Summit in the dungeon. The dungeon's fairly difficult as far as PvE goes, but certainly easy enough to finish with H/H. So why get more humans? Because more humans means more heroes, and / or more overpowered PvE skills, as well as more intelligence in a fight (e.g. you won't have someone kite forwards instead of backwards). In this situation would you care if the Spirit Spammer is less than ideal? He's still better than henchmen. Even if there are lots of people going "LFG" you're better off sticking with a good Spirit Spammer than slowly filtering through everyone asking to see their bars.

You will have a much easier time getting a human team to do Thommis HM without Shadow Form than with it. You can't ignore Shadow Form. Like it or not, so long as Shadow Form exists, the rest of the PvE world has to work around it, not ignore it.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
Is your argument to not nerf SF, "SF lets you reach all these max titles quicker"?

No offense but I think that's a really weak argument. Let's accept that maxing all these stuff is crap to begin with - I don't agree with that statement, but you proposed it and let's accept it. Now ask the obvious question: do you think it's a good idea to meet crap with more crap? I don't.

What's more, grind in GW is a lot less significant than other MMOs. You do not have to grind higher levels, or to grind more powerful weapons. What do you need to grind that could affect you? Luxon, Kurz, Lightbringer, Sunspear, EotN title tracks, etc. Not all that important, and they've gotten a lot easier to max with update after update making it easier. You get to, what, R6 Norn just completing the campaign? Also, even without maxing all that you are still plenty effective.

What's even more, the places with most Permas - VSF, UWSC, etc - have nothing to do with maxing those titles. Do you think people do VSF to max Deldrimor, or to farm Voltaic Spears?

I cannot believe your argument that removing this "crutch" would also mean less farming. If everyone could just walk to the nearest merchant and buy a set of Obsidian armor for 500 gold, then yeah there would be no more farming. But there would also be no game. Agree? I certainly think so.
Is generally adding crap to counter crap a good idea?
No. Absolutely not.
Is adding a fast way of making money to be able to max Lucky, a title that takes 4 years of AFKing the Rings OR demands massive amounts of keys - an amount that isn't obtainable though normal play - a bad idea?
No, I currently don't believe that it is.
Considering that there are ... what ... 7 or 8 PvE areas in the whole game where a player can obtain Luxon points and the titles maxes at 10 mil - is having a way where you can obtain those points much faster a bad idea?
I don't believe it is.
Being able to open 10k chests faster?
Have an easier way of obtaining 10k sweet points?

Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.

(If on the other hand they decide to fix these issues, nuke it away!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeydra View Post
If SF is nerfed, the guy going "Spirit Spammer LF Thommis HM" will have a much easier time getting a group, especially during ZQ days (which is otherwise the only reason to do Thommis HM). It doesn't have to be the "best" option. Spirit spamming falls into the broad class of damage builds, and just about any mix of damage builds works. So long as he has a good build and / or a good attitude, I'd pick him up. If you're unconvinced, think about this from the viewpoint of the team leader.

You're looking to form a team with firm defense and enough offense to overpower the Stone Summit in the dungeon. The dungeon's fairly difficult as far as PvE goes, but certainly easy enough to finish with H/H. So why get more humans? Because more humans means more heroes, and / or more overpowered PvE skills, as well as more intelligence in a fight (e.g. you won't have someone kite forwards instead of backwards). In this situation would you care if the Spirit Spammer is less than ideal? He's still better than henchmen. Even if there are lots of people going "LFG" you're better off sticking with a good Spirit Spammer than slowly filtering through everyone asking to see their bars.

You will have a much easier time getting a human team to do Thommis HM without Shadow Form than with it. You can't ignore Shadow Form. Like it or not, so long as Shadow Form exists, the rest of the PvE world has to work around it, not ignore it. Why is it so hard to understand that "farmers" won't become "players". If spirit spam will be part of the farming cookie, then the guy will get into farming teams. If spirit spam won't be part of the farming cookie, the guy will only be able to play with teams that "play" that area.
The same way that he is able to get into "playing" teams now.

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
View Post
Is generally adding crap to counter crap a good idea?
No. Absolutely not.
Is adding a fast way of making money to be able to max Lucky, a title that takes 4 years of AFKing the Rings OR demands massive amounts of keys - an amount that isn't obtainable though normal play - a bad idea?
No, I currently don't believe that it is.
Considering that there are ... what ... 7 or 8 PvE areas in the whole game where a player can obtain Luxon points and the titles maxes at 10 mil - is having a way where you can obtain those points much faster a bad idea?
I don't believe it is.
Being able to open 10k chests faster?
Have an easier way of obtaining 10k sweet points?

Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.

(If on the other hand they decide to fix these issues, nuke it away!)


Why is it so hard to understand that "farmers" won't become "players". If spirit spam will be part of the farming cookie, then the guy will get into farming teams. If spirit spam won't be part of the farming cookie, the guy will only be able to play with teams that "play" that area.
The same way that he is able to get into "playing" teams now. Your whole "Farmers" versus "Players" point is absolutely retarded. So because you guys are just "farmers" then the broken skills should not be nerfed? You find it normal that UW can be cleared in 20-30 mins? You really do? "Farmers" wants those nice skins but aren't willing to spend the time to earnt them. Your arguments are pathetic.

JONO51

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
View Post
Is generally adding crap to counter crap a good idea?
No. Absolutely not.
Is adding a fast way of making money to be able to max Lucky, a title that takes 4 years of AFKing the Rings OR demands massive amounts of keys - an amount that isn't obtainable though normal play - a bad idea?
No, I currently don't believe that it is.
Considering that there are ... what ... 7 or 8 PvE areas in the whole game where a player can obtain Luxon points and the titles maxes at 10 mil - is having a way where you can obtain those points much faster a bad idea?
I don't believe it is.
Being able to open 10k chests faster?
Have an easier way of obtaining 10k sweet points?

Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.
Those titles were never meant to be maxed though. They were intended as long term titles that would slowly increase over the years, or in a smaller, dedicated amout of time, not something that gets maxed in a month. When you get to the point of only having the consumables and account stuff to do, its a case of "am I dedicated enough to spend years(s) maxing these", rather than "I like this game, I'm gonna do some HM missions".

You have to keep in mind this game was meant to be picked up, played for a few months, then dropped for a while. When you're left with just the consumables etc you either stop playing or grind, knowing full well what you're getting into. Suddenly changing the ideas behind these titles just so they become another thing to spend a month maxing is wrong, and I'd say that SF doing this just constitutes another reason for a nerf imo. There has to be something left for the dedicated players after all, and if these ultra long titles were made shorter, what would there be?

Warrior Babes

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Mar 2009

Teh Deep

Hiding From Shitters [Shh]

W/

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuks
View Post
Your whole "Farmers" versus "Players" point is absolutely retarded. So because you guys are just "farmers" then the broken skills should not be nerfed? You find it normal that UW can be cleared in 20-30 mins? You really do? "Farmers" wants those nice skins but aren't willing to spend the time to earnt them. Your arguments are pathetic. .. "farmers" wont become "players", nerf SF, and some other gimmick will come around.. and the area will still be farmed by "farmers". So those "players" who wanna play the area still wont get a team.. u see?

and what is wrong with.. 20-30min farm.. oh yes.. its to fast
but the W/Me solo smites takes 8-10mins to do the smites.. so he can do 2-3runs while u do 1 UWSC..
if your uwsc group does not fail u prolly get 2-3ectos that run (can be 1) and MAYBE a rare weps skin. but.. 7/10 'pug'groups doesnt make it.. so no chest.
This W/Me will prolly get 2-3 ectos in 3 runs too (averange).. and he can fully trust on himself.. if he fails.. its his own fault, and he doesnt have to w8 for a team to set up..

but what u think is more fun.. completing the area.. and u can choose out of 7 areas to do.. or just repeatly farming wastes.. over and over again.. till u finnaly got enough for your obsi armor?

i agree SF is a very easy skill to play with.. but nerfing it wont stop the farmers.. no matter how much u ppl want to see that happen

kanuks

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Nov 2005

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior Babes View Post
.. "farmers" wont become "players", nerf SF, and some other gimmick will come around.. and the area will still be farmed by "farmers". So those "players" who wanna play the area still wont get a team.. u see?

and what is wrong with.. 20-30min farm.. oh yes.. its to fast
but the W/Me solo smites takes 8-10mins to do the smites.. so he can do 2-3runs while u do 1 UWSC..
if your uwsc group does not fail u prolly get 2-3ectos that run (can be 1) and MAYBE a rare weps skin. but.. 7/10 'pug'groups doesnt make it.. so no chest.
This W/Me will prolly get 2-3 ectos in 3 runs too (averange).. and he can fully trust on himself.. if he fails.. its his own fault, and he doesnt have to w8 for a team to set up..

but what u think is more fun.. completing the area.. and u can choose out of 7 areas to do.. or just repeatly farming wastes.. over and over again.. till u finnaly got enough for your obsi armor?

i agree SF is a very easy skill to play with.. but nerfing it wont stop the farmers.. no matter how much u ppl want to see that happen I have nothing against farmers but I do have a problem of them abusing a broken skills that turns a run that was meant to take a couple hours in 20 mins. They get the best drops without working for them. Then there is players not abusing SF that finally manages to get a rare drop but instead of being worth 100k it's worth 10k because SF made these items easier to farm and they saturated the market.

Tell me... why do farmers "farm"? To get more money and better skin so they looks more cool than the other. But them oversaturating the market makes these available for lesser prices to everyone. So farmers willing to look better than the other actually contributes for the other to look as good as they are. Isn't it quite paradoxal? You guys really want to see every given casual player with obsidian armor and rare skinned weapons? Because that is exactly what is happening right now. When a farmer finally gets his famous eternal sword drop, does he wants it to be worth 2 millions or only 200k? (Not exact prices I know but that's just an example).

FOW and UW were meant to take a couple hours to complete. Being able to do it in 20 mins by abusing a totally broken class specific skill for sure wasn't A-net's plan. The only reason it wasn't finally nerfed for good is because they are scared that the farmers acts like cry babys and quit the game for good.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JONO51 View Post
Those titles were never meant to be maxed though. They were intended as long term titles that would slowly increase over the years, or in a smaller, dedicated amout of time, not something that gets maxed in a month. When you get to the point of only having the consumables and account stuff to do, its a case of "am I dedicated enough to spend years(s) maxing these", rather than "I like this game, I'm gonna do some HM missions".

You have to keep in mind this game was meant to be picked up, played for a few months, then dropped for a while. When you're left with just the consumables etc you either stop playing or grind, knowing full well what you're getting into. Suddenly changing the ideas behind these titles just so they become another thing to spend a month maxing is wrong, and I'd say that SF doing this just constitutes another reason for a nerf imo. There has to be something left for the dedicated players after all, and if these ultra long titles were made shorter, what would there be?
If we take for instance the sweet-tooth title - maxing it means wasting a million. How many SC-guys earn that much in a month?
And that's one title.
How much gold does your average player have? How much does normal play net you?
The problem is that wasting a million is out of touch with how much you earn by playing the game. You NEED something broken to compensate for it.
And SF is currently that broken winner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kanuks View Post
Your whole "Farmers" versus "Players" point is absolutely retarded. So because you guys are just "farmers" then the broken skills should not be nerfed? You find it normal that UW can be cleared in 20-30 mins? You really do? "Farmers" wants those nice skins but aren't willing to spend the time to earnt them. Your arguments are pathetic. I am guessing you didn't read what I said.

_Nihilist_

_Nihilist_

Will Bull's Strike for $!

Join Date: Apr 2006

Isle of the Dead

Yes, if Shadow Form gets nerfed, something else will take its place.

Question is, will that something else discriminate against the other 9 professions in the game? Probably not. And yes, I understand that there is going to be a Necro, or perhaps a Monk with the Vale Assassin... WOW! one whole team member of an 8-person team that's not an Assassin! Oh boy! That's equal, right? A 7:1 ratio is cool, ye ye, kekekekeke! No, it isn't.

If it's 600/Smite teams that start SpeedClearing (I'd prefer that the SpeedClear nonsense was eliminated, but saying it's not), you can 600/Smite with nearly any profession as the 600 Tank. Hell, set up correctly, a WARRIOR can 600 Tank, it just takes skill and patience. It doesn't hurt other professions nearly as much as Shadow Form does, nor does it abuse game mechanics as much as SF.

Since ANet has said that they themselves are concerned with the SpeedClears, but they haven't done anything about SF since, even though they admit that SF is what is making 20-minute UWSC's possible, people are speaking out. We want to see ANet step up and start acting instead of just flapping their lips.

Before Shadow Form was maintainable, there were plenty of things that could be farmed with it. It just involved using a build that was capable of blowing shit up before SF dropped, or farming where you could Shadowstep behind a wall/obstacle so that you couldn't get hit when it did drop. When this was going on, there was no damage reduction limiting the amount of damage you could do, and SF lasted longer (per single cast) than it does now.

JONO51

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

P/

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
View Post
If we take for instance the sweet-tooth title - maxing it means wasting a million. How many SC-guys earn that much in a month?
And that's one title.
How much gold does your average player have? How much does normal play net you?
The problem is that wasting a million is out of touch with how much you earn by playing the game. You NEED something broken to compensate for it.
And SF is currently that broken winner.
I'd imagine that some SCers could earn a million a month fairly easily, provided they have the guild for it and step up their game to DoA. I'm sure they could do full runs in around an hour and a half (HM of course). Three runs to get an armbrace. In 4.5hours they get a fifth of the cash to get the sweet tooth title. The only other way a non-SCer could get that kinda cash realistically is through a lucky drop, or being fairly adept at trading.

The average player is going to earn not much at all in normal play (and by that I mean, do all the NM stuff, mess around a little in HM). But then again, the normal player wasn't meant to get these titles. They're for the hardcore, those who want the title so much they'd be willing to spend hours 55ing to get it etc.

In terms of doing all the NM stuff, and a large portion of HM stuff, I'd put a realistic estimate at around 1mil-1.5mil through normal play. Now, that is provided they don't go burning their cash on expensive armors and so on, and including the fact that on the way to that, they messed around with some other professions etc.

So yes, wasting a million is out of touch with what you get, but it wasn't intended for everyone to play through the game, drop a few mil, and get +3 to GWAMM. Its all about the effort put into it. In the past, it was play through the game, farm some, and maybe you can get your drunkard title. Now its a case of play a bit, learn how to perma, and run dungeons, UWSC etc and earn millions in a comparatively short amount of time. It's essentially cut out a big chunk of the effort that was meant for these title upon creation. If you don't want to put in the effort to get the money for these titles, then they aren't for you. You just choose to do something else with your time/money instead. It doesn't mean there needs to be a broken skill to give an easy route to it.

Not only that, but the consumable titles are completely optional gameplay wise, they offer no benefit except for +1 maxed title, so you aren't lacking anything really by not having them.

upier

upier

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Mar 2006

Done.

[JUNK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JONO51
View Post
I'd imagine that some SCers could earn a million a month fairly easily, provided they have the guild for it and step up their game to DoA. I'm sure they could do full runs in around an hour and a half (HM of course). Three runs to get an armbrace. In 4.5hours they get a fifth of the cash to get the sweet tooth title. The only other way a non-SCer could get that kinda cash realistically is through a lucky drop, or being fairly adept at trading.

The average player is going to earn not much at all in normal play (and by that I mean, do all the NM stuff, mess around a little in HM). But then again, the normal player wasn't meant to get these titles. They're for the hardcore, those who want the title so much they'd be willing to spend hours 55ing to get it etc.

In terms of doing all the NM stuff, and a large portion of HM stuff, I'd put a realistic estimate at around 1mil-1.5mil through normal play. Now, that is provided they don't go burning their cash on expensive armors and so on, and including the fact that on the way to that, they messed around with some other professions etc.

So yes, wasting a million is out of touch with what you get, but it wasn't intended for everyone to play through the game, drop a few mil, and get +3 to GWAMM. Its all about the effort put into it. In the past, it was play through the game, farm some, and maybe you can get your drunkard title. Now its a case of play a bit, learn how to perma, and run dungeons, UWSC etc and earn millions in a comparatively short amount of time. It's essentially cut out a big chunk of the effort that was meant for these title upon creation. If you don't want to put in the effort to get the money for these titles, then they aren't for you. You just choose to do something else with your time/money instead. It doesn't mean there needs to be a broken skill to give an easy route to it.

Not only that, but the consumable titles are completely optional gameplay wise, they offer no benefit except for +1 maxed title, so you aren't lacking anything really by not having them. The problem is that this is the game's end-game content.
While it is completely optional - given the age of the game and the fact we are not getting new content, sooner or later players that stick with this game have just these things to do.
And if the "quit the game if you don't like SF, because GW obviously isn't the game for you" isn't an appropriate reply to the subject of SF, suggesting to players to not do titles ALSO can not be an appropriate reply.

If SF is trashed, we will still be left with a game where shitloads of money, that can NOT be obtained through normal play, are needed. And just as we had the jump from Ursan to SF, a new cookie is BOUND to show up and then we'll bitch about that again for a year.

Just fix the reason why such massive amounts of cash are even needed in this game. Just remove or fix the end-game content that requires actions that break the game (even further).

But like I said, I don't see that happening. It's kinda the reason why we are getting GW2.
It's a broken game. With or without SF.
Better the devil you know.

Life Bringing

Life Bringing

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Jul 2008

Fissure of Woe

[LOD]/[GS]/[DL]/[LOD*]

N/P

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong View Post
Yes, if Shadow Form gets nerfed, something else will take its place.

Question is, will that something else discriminate against the other 9 professions in the game? Probably not. And yes, I understand that there is going to be a Necro, or perhaps a Monk with the Vale Assassin... WOW! one whole team member of an 8-person team that's not an Assassin! Oh boy! That's equal, right? A 7:1 ratio is cool, ye ye, kekekekeke! No, it isn't.
Actually, yes, it will discriminate, maybe not at 7:1, but the old obby flesh eles will take the place of SF sins. What you people don't realize is that most people can do these areas in UW FASTER with an obby flesh ele than an SF sin.
Quote: If it's 600/Smite teams that start SpeedClearing (I'd prefer that the SpeedClear nonsense was eliminated, but saying it's not), you can 600/Smite with nearly any profession as the 600 Tank. Hell, set up correctly, a WARRIOR can 600 Tank, it just takes skill and patience. It doesn't hurt other professions nearly as much as Shadow Form does, nor does it abuse game mechanics as much as SF.
Umm, any profession can maintain SF? Monks are the fastest at pits and mnts? Necros can do chamber really fast? Eles outclass all the sins(except chamber)? Mesmers can do pits and chamber? Even if everythign resorts to 600/smite, warriors and the like will still be discriminated against. They have no benefit over a caster, and quite a few drawbacks.
Quote:
Since ANet has said that they themselves are concerned with the SpeedClears, but they haven't done anything about SF since, even though they admit that SF is what is making 20-minute UWSC's possible, people are speaking out. We want to see ANet step up and start acting instead of just flapping their lips. Not everyone shares you opinion. Plus, its not the 20 minute times that anet cares about, because 20 minutes is a terrible time. What anet is concerned about are the 8 minute UW, 13 minute FoW, 12 minute Deep, 34 minute DO RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing A, and 15 minute urgoz. Besides, SF won't be nerfed, things around SF will be nerfed(example is CoP and RoJ nerf).
Quote: You're assuming that if SF gets nerfed, people will continue doing UW. That's completely wrong. UWSC is barely a decent rate of income to begin with. UW balanced is not something that can compete in terms of economy.

Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net.

There will be fallout from nerfing SF, but I see a compromise as a possibility. To compensate, A.net could reduce money titles by a 2-3x. Or increase ecto and rare weapon drop rate by 3-4x.

I think that would satisfy both sides.

Jeydra

Forge Runner

Join Date: May 2008

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier
Yes, this kind of crap IS completely optional. But once you reach a certain level - it's also ALL there is left. As you said - FoW for 500g would mean no game.
And that's what i feel should be changed. Give us an initiate to actually "play". And the best way to do this is is if "playing" the game enables you to reach certain goals.
Currently, it does not!
You NEED massive amounts of farming - and SF, being broken that it is, makes this process faster.
Before Shadow Form was maintainable, there were plenty of things that could be farmed with it. It just involved using a build that was capable of blowing shit up before SF dropped, or farming where you could Shadowstep behind a wall/obstacle so that you couldn't get hit when it did drop. When this was going on, there was no damage reduction limiting the amount of damage you could do, and SF lasted longer (per single cast) than it does now. Way to be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ignorant. SF was ALWAYS maintainable. It has never NOT been maintainable. People were using SF to farm uw long before eotn, cons, etc. You're also wrong about SF lasting longer. When the skill was released at the beginning of factions, SF lasted for 5...17...20 seconds, it now follows a 5..18...21 progressions, so its actually lasts longer now than before.

AtomicMew

AtomicMew

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Apr 2005

N/A

Quote:
Originally Posted by Unreal Havoc View Post
That's because people are all too busy abusing a ridiculous skill rather than learning how to actually play the area.

What's even sadder is the pure abuse someone can get just for even attempting to create a balanced team for UW HM.

Sadly with the general PuGs mindset this is something better left to Guild groups.

And people wonder why PuGs are so bad these days?
Your argument seems to be, "but you need power farming to get to all the Voltaic Spears and Obsidian Armors, so don't nerf farming".

I don't get it. If you can't farm, then you don't get VS's and FoW armor. Objectively, nothing about you has changed. So you don't have prestige armor, but you don't need prestige armor to be effective. Is there a reason why you should have VS's and FoW armor? And if there is, is there a reason why you should be able to farm them so much faster than you would otherwise?

Approach this from another angle as well. Suppose ANet made it possible to farm 10 ectos / hour. You'll still need to work for FoW armor, but you get it really fast. Is this balanced? What about 15 ectos / hour? Where do you draw the line?

And yet another angle: what are you going to do after you have the VS's and FoW armor? As you said, there's nothing to do other than get VS's and FoW armor and maxed Sweet Tooth. What next? Quit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by upier Why is it so hard to understand that "farmers" won't become "players". If spirit spam will be part of the farming cookie, then the guy will get into farming teams. If spirit spam won't be part of the farming cookie, the guy will only be able to play with teams that "play" that area.
The same way that he is able to get into "playing" teams now. They have to become players. They have no choice. If they do not become players, they can't get Thommis HM done (unless they H/H). This will be especially pronounced on ZQ days.

You seem to think that the spirit spammer will be able to get into "playing" teams now. Maybe. But the point is there are very few, if any, playing teams right now. That's because most players simply hitch a ride on VSF runs. Think about it. The whole point of getting more humans is to finish the area faster. But you finish the area fastest by getting a VSF run, and it is so much easier to get a team for VSF. Why would anyone want to "play"? I'm not referring to you, the player. You've already decided to "play". But you can't find anyone else who also wants to "play". There simply aren't enough players.

On the other hand, if Shadow Form gets nerfed and you can't VSF anymore, then anyone who wants to get the ZQ done must either H/H or pick up more humans. Suddenly the player pool multiplies. This is easy to see if you look at a ZQ where there's no such tool to farm and it's moderately hard to H/H - say, Gyala HM. Try getting a human team to PuG Gyala HM and to PuG Thommis HM, and the difference is leagues wide.

You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, no matter how much you want to.

Quote: Originally Posted by traversc
Nerfing UWSC with no compensatory mechanism would completely screw up everything. It would make people who are already rich insanely rich further polarizing the community between the elite (cf elitists) and non-eiltes. Basically, that would kill any faith I have left in A.net. How do you think the super rich got super rich in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Way to be RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing ignorant. SF was ALWAYS maintainable. It has never NOT been maintainable. People were using SF to farm uw long before eotn, cons, etc. You're also wrong about SF lasting longer. When the skill was released at the beginning of factions, SF lasted for 5...17...20 seconds, it now follows a 5..18...21 progressions, so its actually lasts longer now than before. No it wasn't. Before the PvE / PvP skill split, Shadow Form wasn't maintainable.