SF Argument

Quote: Originally Posted by Ugh

4 hours? I see you've been solo trapping DoA in HM backwards with your monitor turned off.

Also, was this thread necessary? Isn't there an SF thread over in Riverside? I guess I'll go copy-paste my arguments from there. brb This thread was either moved or was an offshoot thread split from one in Riverside.

And thanks for another elitist argument expecting everyone to be a professional and know what every enemy is going to do at any point in time. Sorry, but that's not how it works.

arkantos, I applaud your attempt at trying to meet a middle ground on the elite areas for casual players. Meeting in the middle would be an ideal situation, but the problem would still exsist: people will find a way to shorten it up, and in the end screw a casual player. however, would your arguement against SF still continue if they nerfed UW by, say,adding a charged blackness in all areas of HM, but not NM?

this game was meant to be for casual players. like it or not, it was. short missions, progressive quests, frequent outposts...all there for those who do not have hours of time to dedicate to a video game. and the original guild wars was marketed under that banner.

remember skill > time? it counteracts everything when people are discriminitory over those who do not have the time, but have the skill to do so. gimmick or not, it requires some type of skill. if you mis-hit a key, you aggro more than one mob...your done for. so, while SC seem to not have any skill, they do take a certain amount of practice before it can be done efficiently at clearing uw under 20 minutes.

not all of those who do SC do it for "teh ph4t lewt". people DO make friends out of it, and even form guilds and/or alliances with the people that they meet. ursan did that do a lot of people. people who would never pug (like me) actually did for a while, and made some pretty good friends from it. its not always about the loot. sometimes its just the feeling of being able to complete areas with friends.

A11euro is standing for the casual crowd. finally, someone thinks of somone other than themselves when regarding certain skills and farms. s/he joined in apr 2005, so I am sure that their experiences underly most people here.

Quote: Originally Posted by Simath

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0 And thanks for another elitist argument expecting everyone to be a professional and know what every enemy is going to do at any point in time. Sorry, but that's not how it works. Please explain why knowledge of an elite area(which can easily be accessed via the wiki) should not be required to complete it, and how thinking this makes sense makes one elitist. Rather than pressing 1, 2, 3 to Shadow Farm said elite area.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ugh

SF is obviously broken and there is no logical argument that says otherwise. Invincibility was not intended for GW, which is a game that is supposed to be based on skill. Pressing 1 > 2 > 3 and then slamming your head on the keyboard is poor game design. Unfortunately, the bolded statement is just not true. ANet intentionally buffed Shadow Form so that it could easily be maintained permanently.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0 And if these builds are removed they'll be on the sidelines again.

Once more in plain english: Gimmick builds do not prevent you from using alternate team builds. Period. Nobody is forcing you to play the way they want to, yet your arguments are to force people to play your way. Dear child, you are still fixated on the idea of yours that we want to force other people to play our builds. What you don't understand is we just want one overpowered skill to be nerfed. They can still play gimmick builds. There will always be gimmick builds.

Let me know if I need to clarify anything further, since it appears you are struggling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by someguy this is hilarious. the fact that someone is proud to be an elitist on a game just makes me wonder what they are compensating for. the difference between you and me is the fact that one of us thinks of others, while one thinks only of themselves. your assumption that other players who post in riverside just astound me. Inde, we need to have a forum for us older players, that way we can keep childish shit like this out of my reading scope. Thanks for feeding me, bro. The "compensating for" comeback is really getting old. Stop bring up nonsense like that and develop formidable retorts. The difference between you and me is that I don't respond to posts who's only purpose is to incite emotion. You, sir, fail at such tactics. My "assumption" regarding riverside is a notion which many people similarly express. Mods included. You just aren't in the correct circles. My apologies. As for me not being an "old player", well, that's just a silly thing to say. Happy trolling!

Don't we have enough of these SF---nerfing blah blah trends?

Quote: Originally Posted by Simath

What you don't understand is we just want one overpowered skill to be nerfed. They can still play gimmick builds. There will always be gimmick builds. Dear child, why? give me a solid reason why it should be nerfed. do not use your personal opinion. state facts. if you can't, then your posts are (if not already) irrelevant.

They truly are brick walls.

Quote: Originally Posted by Ghost Dog

They truly are brick walls. What's positively hilarious is that this exact same idiocy was polluting the old Ursan thread, and we all know how that turned out in the end.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0 And thanks for another elitist argument expecting everyone to be a professional and know what every enemy is going to do at any point in time. Sorry, but that's not how it works. 4 hours was a gross over-exaggeration.
Quote:

Gimmick builds do not prevent you from using alternate team builds. Period. Nobody is forcing you to play the way they want to, yet your arguments are to force people to play your way. Yes, they do. Allow me to spell it out for you: Gimmick Builds in place = only thing that anyone will do because it is so ridiculously efficient Gimmick Builds not in place = you can do pretty much anything else "Your way" (with SF) forces me to use SF. "My way" (or whomever you were responding to's way) allows anything that's not based on a broken skill or completely OP. It would seem my way allows for a much more varied style of play. 90% of the people in favor of SF want it to stay for one reason: easy money. Half-baked arguments such as "SF doesn't limit your style of play" (it does) or "SF isn't that OP" (it is) are entirely BS and those 90% are well aware of it. As for the other 10%, I have no idea what kind of world they're living in. Quote: Unfortunately, this is just not true. ANet intentionally buffed Shadow Form so that it could easily be maintained permanently. I meant in the good ol' days of GW when the devs knew what they were doing and actually cared about balance.

Quote: Originally Posted by Star Gazer

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

This thread was either moved or was an offshoot thread split from one in Riverside.

And thanks for another elitist argument expecting everyone to be a professional and know what every enemy is going to do at any point in time. Sorry, but that's not how it works. You call anyone who disagrees with you an Elitist. I don't see how you can continue just dealing out the same thing over and over. Yes, completing things fast is cool and all, no one likes to piss away time. Just when you can do it with no skill required, no attention needed it becomes a joke. I've met people who began the game 2 months ago who have Eblades. It just isn't right, even if skins are there just to look pretty its a shame when everyone has them.

Speedclears etc devalue items from the speedclear, and tarnish the prestige of the area. Who would ever care if you said "Hey I just completed Underworld!" nowdays?

Quote: Originally Posted by Ugh 4 hours was a gross over-exaggeration.

Yes, they do. Allow me to spell it out for you:
Gimmick Builds in place = only thing that anyone will do because it is so ridiculously efficient
Gimmick Builds not in place = you can do pretty much anything else

"Your way" (with SF) forces me to use SF. "My way" (or whomever you were responding to's way) allows anything that's not based on a broken skill or completely OP. It would seem my way allows for a much more varied style of play.

90% of the people in favor of SF want it to stay for one reason: easy money. Half-baked arguments such as "SF doesn't limit your style of play" (it does) or "SF isn't that OP" (it is) are entirely BS and those 90% are well aware of it. As for the other 10%, I have no idea what kind of world they're living in. dont use percentages if you do not have the analytical facts behind them. its true. are you implying that if you said in guild (or maybe even alliance) chat "hey guys, lets go 8 man random way uw" that they would actually say no? that is unfortunate that you are in a guild like that. maybe you should find a new one?

you want to know what I run for hm areas? 2 wars, 2 rangers, 2 monks, 1 mes, and 1 (curses) necro. ZOMG DISCORD WAY MESSED UP RUN...owait

sorry bud, but your scenario does not fly.

Quote: Originally Posted by Racthoh I don't think the casual player wants to be forced into playing one specific profession just so they can see elite areas. true enough. well why was ursan nerfed again? if we did not have sf nor ursan...we would have the holy trinity. casual players are constantly having to buy (heyhey anet microtransaction coming your way!) slots or consider deleting a character to roll whatever is favorable at that time. or they just suck it up.

one profession, or three professions it does not matter. people have to change in order to stay with whatever the current meta is. like it or not.

Quote:

Quote: Casual players: people who have a limited amount of time in their day to play.
Hardcore elitists: people who don't want to use the gimmick builds, because they want the challenge.
Hardcore farmers: people who play hours a day using gimmick builds and perfecting them merely to cash in the most amount of stuff they can get their hands on. So, what would I be considered? During the school year I have a limited amount of time to play the game, yet I still dislike gimmick builds because I want a challenge. Most of my friends are like this, too. So, you're defending casual players, while arguing with casual players by your definition. I find it funny that you assume that every single casual player in this game has the same opinion as you.

So, thank you very much for defending me and all the other casual players, but I don't need your defense, and I certainly do not share the same opinions as you.

Quote: arkantos, I applaud your attempt at trying to meet a middle ground on the elite areas for casual players. Meeting in the middle would be an ideal situation, but the problem would still exsist: people will find a way to shorten it up, and in the end screw a casual player. however, would your arguement against SF still continue if they nerfed UW by, say,adding a charged blackness in all areas of HM, but not NM?

this game was meant to be for casual players. like it or not, it was. short missions, progressive quests, frequent outposts...all there for those who do not have hours of time to dedicate to a video game. and the original guild wars was marketed under that banner.

remember skill > time? it counteracts everything when people are discriminitory over those who do not have the time, but have the skill to do so. gimmick or not, it requires some type of skill. if you mis-hit a key, you aggro more than one mob...your done for. so, while SC seem to not have any skill, they do take a certain amount of practice before it can be done efficiently at clearing uw under 20 minutes.

not all of those who do SC do it for "teh ph4t lewt". people DO make friends out of it, and even form guilds and/or alliances with the people that they meet. ursan did that do a lot of people. people who would never pug (like me) actually did for a while, and made some pretty good friends from it. its not always about the loot. sometimes its just the feeling of being able to complete areas with friends.

A11euro is standing for the casual crowd. finally, someone thinks of somone other than themselves when regarding certain skills and farms. s/he joined in apr 2005, so I am sure that their experiences underly most people here. Yes, I would still argue against it. By adding charged blackness' to every area of UW, you're going to end up screwing over every player. Adding these into every area is going to promote more gimmick builds as opposed to others, nott o mention you're going to screw over every single group, not just speed clears.

You're right, it was intended for casual players. If you want to use Prophecies as an example, I will too. Back in Prophecies, it took much, much, much more time to complete FoW/UW then it does now. Granted there was no true reason to complete all quests in both areas, it still took a considerable amount of time, while the game was still a casual game.

You're right, you can ruin a run if you screw up, and it does take practice to complete UW in <20 minutes. However, you still have to grind your ass off for the PvE skills, and tbh it doesn't take a whole lot of skill to be able to pull it off.

People do make friends from running user friendly, easy and effective builds, yes. However, people can still do this without shadow form. I have nothing against gimmick builds, they're always going to be around. I do, however, have a problem with maintainable invincibility in an online game. People should be able to easily pug and make friends without the use of this one skill.

He is standing for the casual crowd, yes. But what he (and you) seem to be forgetting is that he is arguing with casual players by his definition. You can't defend a whole type of player when all of them are different.

If you want invincibility, go play single player games with cheats. I'll say it again: I have nothing against gimmick builds, but maintainable invincibility is a different story.

Quote: Originally Posted by Star Gazer dont use percentages if you do not have the analytical facts behind them. its true. are you implying that if you said in guild (or maybe even alliance) chat "hey guys, lets go 8 man random way uw" that they would actually say no? that is unfortunate that you are in a guild like that. maybe you should find a new one? By "90%" I meant "the vast majority." And, as we all know, 85% of percentages are made up on the spot. Whether 90% is an exaggeration or not, I don't know (doubt it :P). And my guild is mostly social, so they would probably not be up for UW. Therefore, PUGs are pretty much my only option. And I'm not going to find new friends to do UW.
Quote: you want to know what I run for hm areas? 2 wars, 2 rangers, 2 monks, 1 mes, and 1 (curses) necro. ZOMG DISCORD WAY MESSED UP RUN...owait Then do it? I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Are you saying Discordway is to other H/H groups as SFway is to randomway PUGs? Because no one's forcing you to use Discord. H/H are much less narrow-minded than PUGs are.
Quote: no attention needed...i believe anet had nerfed the recharge on SF in order to "keep us on our toes"...it does require attention, granted it is repetitive. Looking at the SF icon and waiting for it to flash isn't too difficult.

though i agree that the current state of SF really does nothing, absolutely zilch to effect gameplay, being that you're free to choose whatever the hell you want on your bar...it does hinder a certain group's gaming experience, because there's a diffusion of interests that i'm sure needs no explanation. whether or not this hindrance is of any worth to inspect or remediate isn't relevant to my point, as that stems directly from whichever party's point of interest it conflicts.

Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0

Casual players: people who have a limited amount of time in their day to play.
Hardcore elitists: people who don't want to use the gimmick builds, because they want the challenge.
Hardcore farmers: people who play hours a day using gimmick builds and perfecting them merely to cash in the most amount of stuff they can get their hands on. however, your argument here baffles me.
from what i've read...you've been vigorously defending the casual players, which you claim would be most greatly impacted by the blunt end of these proposed SF nerfs. yet here you make a clear distinction between those casual players you defend and hardcore farmers who are the real ones milking all they can out of SF. so, you're saying that SF (along with other OP/gimmicky builds) isn't the quintessential answer to the casual player's dilemma? if casual players and hardcore farmers are to be categorized under your definitions, nerfing SF shouldn't be effecting the first so much as it would cripple the latter. therefore...it really doesn't matter either way.

also, i don't know about other people here, but i've definitely done UW, FoW and several other elite areas with pugs and guild mates alike before the advant of SF. saying that these areas were ghost towns where only 55 and SS roamed is over-exaggeration, tbh. on that same note, it also seems ludicrous to expect a complete dissipation of elite area participants from the nerf of a single skill. really, people who like playing the game will play to adapt to anything short of a complete catastrophe...which, as much as some people attempt to suggest, isn't what a bat to SF would be.

The thing that most people are missing when they start QQing is that PvE is not the same as PvP. You see folks, in PvP, the goal is to beat the other team into oblivion until you win or they resign. However, this is not the case in PvE. In PvE, it is simple enough to get through an area because anet MADE the game that way. The difficult part is figuring out tips and tricks that allow you to get through an area as fast as possible. You could take random pugs and finish an area such as doa in 2+ hours, OR, you could take an elite group of people who know exactly that they're doing and the fastest way to do it, and get through DoA in 34 minutes. Everyone claims SF has made elite areas skillless nonsense, but, in truth, IT HASN'T. It STILL requires a large amount of skill to complete anything in a decent time. The only thing Shadow Form has done is opened up the game to allow more professions into pugs, and has allowed said pugs to form faster.

Running an SF tank in elite areas is extremely difficult. It's not as many of you make it out to be where you just maintain SF and somehow everything in the zone explodes. If pulls/balls are not perfect, you wipe. If you can't ball and pull under several forms of pressure(Touchers, PBAoE, 100B, etc), then you WILL NOT MAKE IT THROUGH A ZONE! Beyond that, if terribad players make up your spikers, you will STILL wipe, no matter how good your pulls are!

It's ridiculous to say that SF has ruined the game because the SAME elite areas can be done with obby flesh tanks. Frenchies used an obby flesh sliver tank and STILL got under an hour. The only thing a complete nerf to SF would do is cause countless of average players to quit(Read:90% of people who think uwsc is srs bsns).

You guys need to be more patient. Anet has revived the greatness of boon prots and pets. It is only a matter of time before things like consumables, pve skills, and assassins are removed from the game, and GW is brought back to it's former glory. And there will be many hamstorms to celebrate!

Quote: Originally Posted by Arkantos

Because maintainable invincibility in an online game is a very bad design, and should have never been implemented. You can't deny it, it is basically a cheat in an online game. Pretty sure you can't become invincible in other online RPG's. Being able to complete the hardest areas of the game with ease in <20 minutes goes against logic and common sense, and it's bad game design. D2 + Enigma sais wakie wakie ?, and look how popular that old s***bag of a game still is ?,

i too enjoy playing with shadowform. but allso without it.
if you want to play the game without sf. do so. it doesent bother me one bit ? - but me playing with sf affects you ?,

i respect you arkantos. i really do. but the points you validated are another show at how desperate you are to be recognized in the community for ''brickwall'' tactics aka physway,

as you said - Anet will do what they do. so let them do it. and shut down this rediculous argumet ? shall we ?. wether Anet chooses in favor of sf. or not. is their choice and decision, and wichever side gets no love. will complain, so quit m,oaning and play the game as YOU see fit. and let others play it. as THEY see fit,

- Tears

Without reading anything, Smiters Boon SF NAO.

Quote: Originally Posted by Silent Enemy

D2 + Enigma sais wakie wakie ?, and look how popular that old s***bag of a game still is ?,

i too enjoy playing with shadowform. but allso without it.
if you want to play the game without sf. do so. it doesent bother me one bit ? - but me playing with sf affects you ?,

i respect you arkantos. i really do. but the points you validated are another show at how desperate you are to be recognized in the community for ''brickwall'' tactics aka physway,

as you said - Anet will do what they do. so let them do it. and shut down this rediculous argumet ? shall we ?. wether Anet chooses in favor of sf. or not. is their choice and decision, and wichever side gets no love. will complain, so quit m,oaning and play the game as YOU see fit. and let others play it. as THEY see fit,

- Tears I'm sorry if I misread something you said, because I'm having a difficult time reading your post.

First of all, enigma was powerful, but didn't necessarily make you invincible in the way shadow form does. Two things are pretty damn different.

Yes, shadow form being around does affect everyone else. Here are the two professions mainly used in UWSC: assassin and necromancer. That leaves 8 out. Sure, not all professions were accepted before SF, but it was quite a bit more than 2.

I could care less how I'm recognized in the community. I'd rather see anything else but shadow form, because as stated, with shadow form around most other professions aren't accepted in groups.

This thread isn't going to get closed because another one will pop up in a few days. We can't stop people from discussing a huge problem in the game.