like it takes skill to go trough an area (no tank and spank) these days.. lol
Also Sabway and Discord should be nerfed.. way to easy.. why not remove heroes from the game.. hmm, no challenge anymore, and those PvE skill, damn
why not remove all classes except the once from Prophecies
Srsly, the game has changed, live with it
and go pvp if u want challenge
~ Babes
SF Argument
Warrior Babes
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior Babes
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12k+ in ~30min is a lot considering you're not doing much for it.|
and go pvp if u want challenge
Yes, because to get into a challenging level of PvP without having PuGs collapse on you over and over is oh so easy compared to getting into PvE. You can get a guild, but the same applies as to PvE - PuGs are shit, and it's hard to find a decent guild.
Tyla
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrior Babes
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Although that is not the point. The point is that in terms of defensive power, this skill is stupidly powerful. Sure, there will be a dominant build all of the time, but this one is just greedy.
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i dont say SF isnt OP, but if u wanna play to game witout SF, go ahead, there are.. 400+(not sure lol) more skills?
I don't even play anymore. Either way, you realise that just ignoring something that affects the game itself is pretty impossible right?
upier Targren
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyla
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And in terms of offensive power, it's pathetic. What's your point again?
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I don't even play anymore. Either way, you realise that just ignoring something that affects the game itself is pretty impossible right?
Except it doesn't affect the game itself. It affects the whiny minority from being able to jump into PUGs because they don't want to leave their non-playing "social" guilds and don't have any other friends to play with, generally because they're too busy whining.
squiros
so it only affects others if the economy dives, elitist or not. so if they made all the dropped items only useable by that account, it'd be okay, right? then the 'does not affect you' argument will hold iff the gold drops are within 1 SD of all dungeons, right?
of course there's the overpowered argument, but i think there are many imba builds that do not require any more or less skill and receive far less criticism. i would go so far as to say that the imbagon is better - since it requires no aggro control at all, allows damage to be done in a convincing way, etc. furthermore, the terra tank with ob flesh is nearly analogous, and is widely accepted. in many cases the terra tank is more robust.
Jczech Jeydra
Life Bringing
reaper with no name
Quote:
Originally Posted by A11Eur0
It illustrates that people think it's invincibility, and I've been saying all along that people are thinking it's invincibility. Can YOU read?
It doesn't work in most places. In the places it DOES work it's not 100% invincible. Only about 10-15% of the game actually allows you to run around and aggro everything without worry, everywhere else has pbaoe, enchant removal, signets, touch skills, etc. which bypass it. Is it that hard to understand? I will admit when I'm wrong, but this is not one of those times. Question. Why is it that you keep assuming signets and such are instant-death for SF sins? SF doesn't make you any more vulnerable to them than any other character, and they're not instant-death for them, so why is it "OMG, he hit me with a PBAoE! I'm dead!" for SF sins? Oh, and this is all ignoring the fact that you can still be healed just like any other character. Seriously, one guy in a mob with a touch skill or PBAoE is not going to kill your SF sin. You are going to gank him, then kill everyone else with impunity, and by the time you move onto the next mob, you've healed whatever damage you've taken. It is, for all intents and purposes, invulnerability because no mob in the game can reasonably be expected to be able to kill you. And even if they could, anything able to solo elite areas in 20 minutes is by definition overpowered. I went a did a quick count (not perfectly accurate, but it's ballpark). There's something like 50 PBAoEs in the game that enemies can use that deal damage. And like 15 signets that can hurt a player, and like 15 touch skills that can hurt a player. So, that's about 80 skills that can hurt you, out of over 1000. Of course, not all of those are offensive, so let's assume for a moment that 1/3 of all skills are offensive in nature. So, less than 1/3 of all skills in the game can even hurt you. But then of course there's attacks. Let's say that for every 1 offensive skill that is used, 2 normal attacks are made (seems fair to me). That means that less than 1/9 of all offensive actions can affect a SF sin at all. Of course, this is very half-baked and full of assumptions. Plus, it glazes over several important details (like how rare the skills in question are, and the fact that about half of the PBAoEs are from rits and dervs, making them that much more rare). However, it gives you the general idea. How can something immune to just about everything that can be thrown at it possibly not be overpowered? Seriously, compare it to a 55 monk. 55 monk: Hi there, mob! Mob: Hi there! *Fight ensues, monk wins, then monk meets a necro straggler* 55 monk: Hi there, necro monster! Necro monster: Hi there! I'd like you to meet my friends: health degen, lifestealing, and enchantment-stripping. 55 monk: Oh s***! *owned* *Now, the SF sin* SF sin: Hi there, mob of 100 monsters! Mob of 100 monsters: Hi there! *SF sin kills everything without breaking a sweat, then meets a weird necro/derv monster* SF Sin: Hi there, monster designed specifically to kick my ass! MDSTKMA: Hi there! *Fight ensues, monster burns his touch skills and PBAoEs, but since the SF Sin has over 500 hp, he still wins easily* SF Sin: Wow, that was tough. I bet you a team of 8 guys wouldn't have had as much trouble with this guy. Hah, and they say I'm overpowered! *SF sin then goes on to kill everything* This dramatization was brought to you by a cold hard dose of reality.
_Nihilist_
Shadow Form needs to be restricted to "nonPerma" status.
Reasons: 1) Shadow Form is not total invulnerability, that still doesn't mean that it should be permanently maintainable, thereby completely nullifying 2 of GW's base game mechanics - Attacking and Targeted Spellcasting. No other Elite Skill does this. Not a single one. There are Elite skills that have some of the functionality of Shadow Form and can be permanently maintained, but they do not grant immunity from the 2 most prevalent sources of incoming damage at once. Wiki lists these 3 skills alongside Shadow Form as Action-prevention skills: Spell Breaker Vow of Silence Obsidian Flesh While they might be maintainable, they don't ignore both attacks and targeted spells, and they all have downsides. OF makes you move much slower, Vow makes you untargetable by ALL spells, even friendly or self, and Spell Breaker only prevents targeted spells, not attacks as well. Shadow Form has 2 downsides, damage output reduction, and losing all but a small fraction of your health when it ends - but since it's able to be maintained indefinitely, the health loss is negated, not to mention there are plenty of ways to deal damage even with the reduction drawback of SF. 2) The ability to be used to clear Elite areas faster than any other viable build. They are Elite areas for a reason. They aren't supposed to be cleared in < 20 minutes on a regular basis. They aren't Elite to keep people out indefinitely - they are Elite because they require understanding of how things work, better than average teamwork, and are more difficult than other areas of the game. It's how they were designed, it's not a permanent exclusion area. When Protective Bond 55 Monks began soloing the Underworld, Protective Bond was nerfed so that any time damage was reduced the player maintaining it lost energy. When 55/SS teams began to farm UW with almost the same ease, Dying Nightmares were introduced with deep enchantment removal. What happened when Perma-SF Assassins began to speedclear UW? Yes, SF was hit slightly with the nerf-bat, but it was allowed to continue being permanently maintainable. However, Mindblades were made ranged instead of melee. That did more to hurt OTHER professions trying to go into UW than it did the Perma-SF 'Sins. 3) Rare items used to be rare, now they have significantly reduced value, and the Glob of Ectoplasm (which @ the time I began to hit FoW/UW was ~9.5k/ea), a rare crafting material with no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any given Monster, lost its value (WTB Ecto 4k/ea - every few Trade messages, in pretty much any decently populated area). The argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars ends HERE. I don't Powertrade or go after rare items, but Perma-SF farmers have made a significant negative impact on this portion of the game. If items and Ecto are worth less, what happens to the players who spent tons of their time playing in Guild or Alliance groups to try and obtain these things that were, by merit of their location in the game, difficult to get? Anyone can obtain rare items, I'm not against that at all. But being able to roll an Assassin to use SF to SC your way to items that are difficult to obtain and were made that way by the game developers? That's abusing game mechanic circumvention. 4) If you aren't running SC, you can't find a PUG. Again, the argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars gets a nice slap of reality HERE as well. When I started running UW and FoW in 2006, I could find groups that wanted to go, and it didn't take 40 minutes to group. Now, if I want to take my Warrior into UW, I'm pretty much shit out of luck unless I can get my friends together. It took me and my brother 4 hours the first time we cleared FoW with just the 2 of us and Heroes. Why? Because we slaughtered each and every Monster on the map before we touched a single quest (except for Rastigan's first quest, since he moves up to the Temple as soon as you get within range of it, whether you talk to him or not). Then we took our time with the quests so that we knew how to do them the next time through, in case any of our other friends wanted to clear FoW for their HoM or were wanting Shards, or trying to get Shadow weapons. We tried UW the same way a couple days later, but once we got to Plains, the Mindblades ended our roll. We're still working on a teambuild that will allow us to clear UW on our mains (he's got his Ele, I've got my Warrior), and will allow us to assist our friends should they ever want to do so on their characters. We don't limit it to gimmicks because not everyone can run gimmicks. I've cleared UW on my Necromancer by running Orders for a Splinter/Barrage group, but I can't get a group to take me on my Warrior because it's not fast enough. That's fine, be bull-headed. While everyone else is clearing their respective areas, I can take my Warrior and clear Wastes. I can't do the quest, but I can clear the Smites and, if need be, a good portion of the Coldfires in under 20 minutes. At that point, any of the 'Sins could come grab the quest and kill the Terrorwebs, and I'd be more than happy to Sprint my ass out of Wastes before they started killing the Dryders so that I wouldn't loot-steal any Ecto that might drop due to their work. But no one will accept my offer, not even if I offer to provide the Cons, BU's to the entire party, and pay for the way in/pop my UW Scroll. Anyone who argues that Perma-Shadow Form isn't game-breaking either: 1) Doesn't understand the game mechanics and the circumvention of game mechanics that permanently-maintainable SF is and represents 2) Isn't capable of being educated about what is and isn't game-breaking 3) Has ulterior motives for continuing to abuse Perma-SF, most likely a "get rich quick and f*** anyone who says otherwise or gets in my way" point of view Shadow Form isn't the only skill that presents problems like this. Ursan got rolled by the nerf-bat for similar reasons. PvE skills in general are all over-powered, which is why we have a limit of 3 per player bar and none on Hero bars. Shadow Form is the main skill that causes this type of damage in GW at the current moment (and has been for a while now), which is why there are people who speak out against it being permanently maintainable. Jeydra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Dont be terrible and h/h it? Its not that difficult.
Nothing stopping you from H/H'ing it, of course - but that's not what I was driving at. It's just wrong to say you can be unaffected by Shadow Form existing, because it is. Where are you going to get other players happy to do Thommis the normal way instead of simply clearing it via VSF, I don't know.
reaper with no name
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
Hey, SF sins! If SF is really not overpowered and hideously broken and it's okay for people to have skills like this, then you wouldn't mind supporting the implementation of the skills from this post, would you? After all, if it's really ok for you sins to have this, then it should be ok for everyone to have, right? The best part is, some of those skills are actually less powerful than SF! Take the necro one, for example; enchantment stripping kills it. Not so of SF, since there are very very few PBAoE or touch enchantment stripping skills. The derv one can be interrupted. The paragon one can be shut down with Well of Silence. And then there's the fact that most of those skills don't prevent you from being blinded or weakened or otherwise hindered from killing things. capashen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong
Reasons: 1) Shadow Form is not total invulnerability, that still doesn't mean that it should be permanently maintainable, thereby completely nullifying 2 of GW's base game mechanics - Attacking and Targeted Spellcasting. No other Elite Skill does this. Not a single one. There are Elite skills that have some of the functionality of Shadow Form and can be permanently maintained, but they do not grant immunity from the 2 most prevalent sources of incoming damage at once. Wiki lists these 3 skills alongside Shadow Form as Action-prevention skills: Spell Breaker Vow of Silence Obsidian Flesh While they might be maintainable, they don't ignore both attacks and targeted spells, and they all have downsides. OF makes you move much slower, Vow makes you untargetable by ALL spells, even friendly or self, and Spell Breaker only prevents targeted spells, not attacks as well. Shadow Form has 2 downsides, damage output reduction, and losing all but a small fraction of your health when it ends - but since it's able to be maintained indefinitely, the health loss is negated, not to mention there are plenty of ways to deal damage even with the reduction drawback of SF. 2) The ability to be used to clear Elite areas faster than any other viable build. They are Elite areas for a reason. They aren't supposed to be cleared in < 20 minutes on a regular basis. They aren't Elite to keep people out indefinitely - they are Elite because they require understanding of how things work, better than average teamwork, and are more difficult than other areas of the game. It's how they were designed, it's not a permanent exclusion area. When Protective Bond 55 Monks began soloing the Underworld, Protective Bond was nerfed so that any time damage was reduced the player maintaining it lost energy. When 55/SS teams began to farm UW with almost the same ease, Dying Nightmares were introduced with deep enchantment removal. What happened when Perma-SF Assassins began to speedclear UW? Yes, SF was hit slightly with the nerf-bat, but it was allowed to continue being permanently maintainable. However, Mindblades were made ranged instead of melee. That did more to hurt OTHER professions trying to go into UW than it did the Perma-SF 'Sins. 3) Rare items used to be rare, now they have significantly reduced value, and the Glob of Ectoplasm (which @ the time I began to hit FoW/UW was ~9.5k/ea), a rare crafting material with no higher than a 4% chance to drop from any given Monster, lost its value (WTB Ecto 4k/ea - every few Trade messages, in pretty much any decently populated area). The argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars ends HERE. I don't Powertrade or go after rare items, but Perma-SF farmers have made a significant negative impact on this portion of the game. If items and Ecto are worth less, what happens to the players who spent tons of their time playing in Guild or Alliance groups to try and obtain these things that were, by merit of their location in the game, difficult to get? Anyone can obtain rare items, I'm not against that at all. But being able to roll an Assassin to use SF to SC your way to items that are difficult to obtain and were made that way by the game developers? That's abusing game mechanic circumvention. 4) If you aren't running SC, you can't find a PUG. Again, the argument that SF doesn't change or effect how other people enjoy Guild Wars gets a nice slap of reality HERE as well. When I started running UW and FoW in 2006, I could find groups that wanted to go, and it didn't take 40 minutes to group. Now, if I want to take my Warrior into UW, I'm pretty much shit out of luck unless I can get my friends together. It took me and my brother 4 hours the first time we cleared FoW with just the 2 of us and Heroes. Why? Because we slaughtered each and every Monster on the map before we touched a single quest (except for Rastigan's first quest, since he moves up to the Temple as soon as you get within range of it, whether you talk to him or not). Then we took our time with the quests so that we knew how to do them the next time through, in case any of our other friends wanted to clear FoW for their HoM or were wanting Shards, or trying to get Shadow weapons. We tried UW the same way a couple days later, but once we got to Plains, the Mindblades ended our roll. We're still working on a teambuild that will allow us to clear UW on our mains (he's got his Ele, I've got my Warrior), and will allow us to assist our friends should they ever want to do so on their characters. We don't limit it to gimmicks because not everyone can run gimmicks. I've cleared UW on my Necromancer by running Orders for a Splinter/Barrage group, but I can't get a group to take me on my Warrior because it's not fast enough. That's fine, be bull-headed. While everyone else is clearing their respective areas, I can take my Warrior and clear Wastes. I can't do the quest, but I can clear the Smites and, if need be, a good portion of the Coldfires in under 20 minutes. At that point, any of the 'Sins could come grab the quest and kill the Terrorwebs, and I'd be more than happy to Sprint my ass out of Wastes before they started killing the Dryders so that I wouldn't loot-steal any Ecto that might drop due to their work. But no one will accept my offer, not even if I offer to provide the Cons, BU's to the entire party, and pay for the way in/pop my UW Scroll. Anyone who argues that Perma-Shadow Form isn't game-breaking either: 1) Doesn't understand the game mechanics and the circumvention of game mechanics that permanently-maintainable SF is and represents 2) Isn't capable of being educated about what is and isn't game-breaking 3) Has ulterior motives for continuing to abuse Perma-SF, most likely a "get rich quick and f*** anyone who says otherwise or gets in my way" point of view Shadow Form isn't the only skill that presents problems like this. Ursan got rolled by the nerf-bat for similar reasons. PvE skills in general are all over-powered, which is why we have a limit of 3 per player bar and none on Hero bars. Shadow Form is the main skill that causes this type of damage in GW at the current moment (and has been for a while now), which is why there are people who speak out against it being permanently maintainable. /signed from first to last word! and the question is: why Anet didn't nerf SF yet? worried about QQing permaformers that can ragequit the game ? what's the matter? they already paied the game!
upier
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
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What you need to be asking yourself is if an area is possible without SF. If it's not - THEN players "playing" PvE can NOT ignore it. And in that case it does affect your gameplay.
What you are currently arguing though is that you can't "play" an area because every other player there is a farmer and they "farm" the area. While that is true, that's a simple observation on the state of the current PvE and not SF's fault.
Just think of it this way: you kill off SF and the people doing Thomy still won't take you in UNLESS you'll have a very specific build and class.
IF they'll still be farming that!
I am just going to quote the reasons, leaving out the explanation due to space constrictions.
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1) Shadow Form is not total invulnerability, that still doesn't mean that it should be permanently maintainable, thereby completely nullifying 2 of GW's base game mechanics - Attacking and Targeted Spellcasting.
Second of all, this skill is DESIGNED to be farmed with.
And third, if you read the Dev's notes on the change (post 114), you'll see that SF PvE isn't supposed to be balanced. It's supposed to be "fun".
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2) The ability to be used to clear Elite areas faster than any other viable build.
Once again, if you look at at the SF Dev Update notes - you'll see that this IS something they are concerned with and keeping an eye out for.
So while this is completely valid, the problem is that the players do not get a say in what is too fast. That's completely in the hands on A.Net.
Still, this is the the reason players wanting a SF nerf should focus on. Because we KNOW this is something A.Net is concerned about - so best to put your money here.
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also alot of ppl think.. 5ectos/run? srsly most of the time u can be lucky when u get 3 (if endchest gives double ecto)
So while this is completely valid, the problem is that the players do not get a say in what is too fast. That's completely in the hands on A.Net.
Still, this is the the reason players wanting a SF nerf should focus on. Because we KNOW this is something A.Net is concerned about - so best to put your money here.
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People who are poor players should not have all the elite armor/weapons. I'm not being elitist and I know it's all just for e-peen. But, high-end stuff is meant to be difficult to obtain. A poor player shouldn't be able to 1 > 2 > 3 his way to items that others had actually worked for.
)
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Yes! I would love to do UWSC on my necro, monk etc.|
on another note.. ppl saying they cant join a pugteam without SF, uhm make 1, srsly?
K, I'll go by myself. Quote:
^1st fail. People are not SF sins. People have more than one character.
Quote: The best part is, some of those skills are actually less powerful than SF! Take the necro one, for example; enchantment stripping kills it. Not so of SF, since there are very very few PBAoE or touch enchantment stripping skills. The derv one can be interrupted. The paragon one can be shut down with Well of Silence. And then there's the fact that most of those skills don't prevent you from being blinded or weakened or otherwise hindered from killing things. |
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People who are poor players should not have all the elite armor/weapons. I'm not being elitist and I know it's all just for e-peen. But, high-end stuff is meant to be difficult to obtain. A poor player shouldn't be able to 1 > 2 > 3 his way to items that others had actually worked for.
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my guild is.. SC-orientated, and no, we dont do it for the ''farming'' aspect. it can be fun u know (you're not gone tell me you get rich from doing Deep).
and i can say.. i have obsi for 3characters.. but 2 of the 3 i had b4 i started with speedclears..
i can understand it does bother ppl that some1 else has FoW-armor. i do understand that it used to be 'elite', and hard to get..
but i dont care what armor some1 elses has.. i find armor combo > Full obsi
with obsi u used to look ''leet''
i just want my characters to look pretty..
Quote: Quote: Quote:
on another note.. ppl saying they cant join a pugteam without SF, uhm make 1, srsly? K, I'll go by myself. you are kidding right? dont tell me u cant make any team.. try harder.. might take 40mins.. but u CAN form a *normal* team
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You mean Discordway? As far as I can tell, Discordway is "farming" the Vanquisher Titles, and getting loot while doing it. You don't need to wait for this one, upier, it's already here! |
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The goals were attainable before SF, they will be attainable after SF. Again, I'm not saying people shouldn't be able to obtain all the 1's and 0's they desire, but abusing game mechanics to do so shouldn't be allowed.
Quote: And "farming" has ALWAYS been notorious for shunning certain options. This isn't a SF issue. It's being able to evaluate the risks and then choosing the option that posses the smallest risk. And when the plan is to complete the area without having to worry much that it works AND being able to do it fast - you'll take builds that are PROVEN to do that. Personally, when it comes to farming - I hope we'll one day achieve a team build consisting of 8 players of the same class AND the EXACT same skillbar. That makes partying as easy as it can get. No need to sit around and wait for that special guy with that special build that EVERYONE wants - you just select 8 random guys, and it works because they are ALL just what you need. |
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so.. u guys are angry because some ''newbie'' has Obsi armor / High- end weps? why should u care? jelous? srsly, if u want it and u dont like to use SF (because its OP.. oh noes).. go Powertrade?
Quote: Originally Posted by A11Eur0 These people don't care about other people having fun, just themselves. Same thing can be said for SF'ers. They don't care about other people having fun, either. Bad argument.
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Racist! |
Originally Posted by Warrior Babes
you are kidding right? dont tell me u cant make any team.. try harder.. might take 40mins.. but u CAN form a *normal* team
For a casual player, waiting 40 minutes to find a non-SF team to go into UW might not be a possibility. Quote:
Snow Bunny hasn't even posted in the last 1-2 pages.
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10k sweet points?
2,5 mil lucky points? 500k unlucky points? 10k chests? 100k Zpoints? That's the problem. Some of these goals are set so insanely high that one either needs a shitload of time or a shitload of money. Or both. And considering we are dealing with a game on the brink of death - time seriously isn't on our side. These are the things that need fixing, and once you have fixed this, you have removed the reason why people resort to such massive farming. And then you might as well kill it. But if one just removes farming from the game we have now, one removed the crutch that made certain moronic ideas bearable. Quote:
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Quote: Ecto prices and high-end weapons prices would also skyrocket, making them and elite armor completely unattainable for most players. Call me elitist, but I feel high-end weapons/armor should be reserved for above average players.
Quote: you are kidding right? dont tell me u cant make any team.. try harder.. might take 40mins.. but u CAN form a *normal* team I've seen others try; they failed.
Quote: Quote: Period. Unperiod. You can't unperiod a period! That's cheating!
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u dont Need SF to do speedclears
You do for UWSC. :/ If a new SC is made after the hypothetical nerfing of SF, it will be much less efficient and simple (probably). And, it hopefully won't revolve around a broken skill. Quote:
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