Quote:
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Originally Posted by N1ghtstalker
they should balance everything IMO
the only skill that truly dominates GW is protective spirit cuz that's what keeps your ass alive in HM no matter what |
Confirmation that the Live Team is going after SF this year
Razon
Yawgmoth
The obvious fact that the skill is totally broken when possible to be maintained was obvious just right after the buff update. They should have nerfed it back immediately and admitted that it was a mistake, but instead they did the Ursan thing again and let it run for a year and a half... so huge player masses got used to it as something normal.
When fixing obviously broken things SPEED matters.
When fixing obviously broken things SPEED matters.
BlackSephir
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth
instead they did the Ursan thing again and let it run for a year and a half... so huge player masses got used to it as something normal.
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1. Ursan is the only way to go. What's that? You wanna go DoA? Do you have R10 Norn and R8 Lightbringer? No? Then gtfo.
Solution: buy EOTN if you still wanna do high end pve.
2. Shadowfarm become the new ursan, UWSC hits the fan. Do you have a sin and all the required skills from other campaigns? No? Then gtfo.
Solution: buy more GW.
Shursh
I thought they said they weren't touching the skill itself anymore?
Could this possibly mean they are changing the areas in which they are abused?
We'll see if they actually get time to find a solution - there's a big difference between "being on the list" and actually "being done."
Could this possibly mean they are changing the areas in which they are abused?
We'll see if they actually get time to find a solution - there's a big difference between "being on the list" and actually "being done."
gw_poster
I haven't read through the whole thread, but I did catch that someone surmized that it was the ecto farmers (read: SF permas) that "inflated" the value of certain rare items (read: BDS', Silverwings, and other dungeon end-chest rewards) by having the ectos with which to pay such high prices. Using the SF-influence logic as a basis for explaining the economy of such items - doesn't it follow then that without SF there will be presumably less ectos and end-chest rares, so that those rares will then be more rare and worth more ecto? Furthermore, less ecto will drive up the cost for ecto which will make the ecto cost for such rare items even more expensive? Maybe my logic is totally flawed, and there are certain presumptions being made, but basically doesn't that mean that the death of SF-perma farming will mean even more to power-sellers? Even if balanced and 600/smite teams (or some other new gimmick that we do not yet now of) take the place of SF-perma farming, it's doubtful UWSC/FOWSC will be done in 15 min as it is now, nor will dungeons be "ran" in such a short time, so less runs/clears = less rares/ectos.
Meh, dunno but I'm glad I don't rely on my sin for anything other than keg farming..oh wait, err..for nothing now lol.
Meh, dunno but I'm glad I don't rely on my sin for anything other than keg farming..oh wait, err..for nothing now lol.
Barrage
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Enon
So the Devs created Shadow Form with the intention of it not being used as a perma almost invincibility yet after several updates the function hasn't changed? Is it just me or is that plain stupid?
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it's a pretty simple scenario
Think of it like this (using trade chat really)
Anet: WTS New campaign (Factions) With two near useless classes
Response: ..........
Anet : Wts New Campaign + Ultimate farming skill
Response: OMG BUY BUY BUY
Lifestyle
Quote:
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Originally Posted by gw_poster
I haven't read through the whole thread, but I did catch that someone surmized that it was the ecto farmers (read: SF permas) that "inflated" the value of certain rare items (read: BDS', Silverwings, and other dungeon end-chest rewards) by having the ectos with which to pay such high prices. Using the SF-influence logic as a basis for explaining the economy of such items - doesn't it follow then that without SF there will be presumably less ectos and end-chest rares, so that those rares will then be more rare and worth more ecto? Furthermore, less ecto will drive up the cost for ecto which will make the ecto cost for such rare items even more expensive? Maybe my logic is totally flawed, and there are certain presumptions being made, but basically doesn't that mean that the death of SF-perma farming will mean even more to power-sellers? Even if balanced and 600/smite teams (or some other new gimmick that we do not yet now of) take the place of SF-perma farming, it's doubtful UWSC/FOWSC will be done in 15 min as it is now, nor will dungeons be "ran" in such a short time, so less runs/clears = less rares/ectos.
Meh, dunno but I'm glad I don't rely on my sin for anything other than keg farming..oh wait, err..for nothing now lol. |
Hope you get it. :P
Painbringer
Actually don't care I used it to feather farm thats about it. Ok couple 5-10 ectos in tomb but thats it honest engine.
I have moved on to a different class and build that is more fun farming different things solo. I cannot devulge do to possbility of it being nerfed
I have moved on to a different class and build that is more fun farming different things solo. I cannot devulge do to possbility of it being nerfed
Coraline Jones
Anybody can tell that perma-sins are dominating the "elite" PvE areas of the game and it's so bad that they become the focus of many teams.
While I expect that ArenaNet is going to nerf the "perma" aspect of Shadow Form, the idea that it will "fix" things in Guild Wars is truly ridiculous. All this will do is push the game into a new meta. The game has had no new skills in over two years. Despite that we have a static skill set, the game is still vastly unbalanced years later. Some of this is because ArenaNet "fixes" some bad skills by completely rewriting how they work, and this allows people to abuse them in a new mechanic.
While I expect that ArenaNet is going to nerf the "perma" aspect of Shadow Form, the idea that it will "fix" things in Guild Wars is truly ridiculous. All this will do is push the game into a new meta. The game has had no new skills in over two years. Despite that we have a static skill set, the game is still vastly unbalanced years later. Some of this is because ArenaNet "fixes" some bad skills by completely rewriting how they work, and this allows people to abuse them in a new mechanic.
AtomicMew
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Originally Posted by Coraline Jones
While I expect that ArenaNet is going to nerf the "perma" aspect of Shadow Form, the idea that it will "fix" things in Guild Wars is truly ridiculous. All this will do is push the game into a new meta.
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The only thing I'd like to add is "All this will do is push the game into a new meta." -> "All this will do is push the game into a new BORING meta."
Cuz, let's face it. Anyone still playing this game is basically farming, whether they know it or not. Perma and team builds based around it (and also to an extent, 600s) are basically the only fun builds left to play in this game.
careyt
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Originally Posted by traversc
Yes, you are exactly right. Spot on.
The only thing I'd like to add is "All this will do is push the game into a new meta." -> "All this will do is push the game into a new BORING meta." Cuz, let's face it. Anyone still playing this game is basically farming, whether they know it or not. Perma and team builds based around it (and also to an extent, 600s) are basically the only fun builds left to play in this game. |
isildorbiafra
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Originally Posted by Lifestyle
It'll still be as rare as ever, but people will have less money now. Which means, everything will scale down, e.g. if something was worth 30 ectos and it goes down to 20 ecto, it'll still taking as long time to get the ectos, it's just a smaller number.
Hope you get it. :P |
iTzF3aR
Manlyspikes = new speed clear for everyone's information.
Life Bringing
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Originally Posted by careyt
I don't agree with that at all. I've always enjoyed getting an actually balanced team together to play and hopefully(at least for a little while) getting rid of perma SF sins will open the door to more balanced teams again. I miss the days of taking hours to do DoA and UW and stuff, soooooo much more fun than all these dumb speed clears.
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Recap:
Anyone who thinks an SF nerf will bring back balanced teams is deluding themselves. Wave goodbye to sins and say hello to eles.
Quote:
| Manlyspikes = new speed clear for everyone's information. |
I Twisted Fate I
I'm curious as to what will happen, Will it be a change for the good and bring back balanced teams to the elite area's? Or will most players simply wait for the next farming meta and begin a new cycle of abuse?
Idea's?
Idea's?
StormDragonZ
They'll get rid of scrolls for entering UW and FoW and charge "a large sum of money" per person to enter either place per visit.
However, Mesmers can get in for free.
However, Mesmers can get in for free.
Sife
ITT: Monks lol'ing at permas
TBH, I'm somewhat sad since I just got into the uwsc scene..but guess what? Time to work on my monk, or get ready for uwsc ritway.
TBH, I'm somewhat sad since I just got into the uwsc scene..but guess what? Time to work on my monk, or get ready for uwsc ritway.
moriz
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Originally Posted by traversc
Yes, you are exactly right. Spot on.
The only thing I'd like to add is "All this will do is push the game into a new meta." -> "All this will do is push the game into a new BORING meta." Cuz, let's face it. Anyone still playing this game is basically farming, whether they know it or not. Perma and team builds based around it (and also to an extent, 600s) are basically the only fun builds left to play in this game. |
what am i farming? unless you believe you can actually farm FUN, then i guess i'm not farming anything now, am i?
if that's the cause, please retract your last statement. it is incorrect.
Life Bringing
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Originally Posted by moriz
i play the occasional AB, RA, random pve mission, and some gvg. i turn all the luxon/kurzick faction i have into materials, leave after every RA match whether i have a good group or not. i do pve missions purely to play with my friends who can't pvp well. lastly, i gvg because i enjoy it.
what am i farming? unless you believe you can actually farm FUN, then i guess i'm not farming anything now, am i? if that's the cause, please retract your last statement. it is incorrect. |
moriz
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
No matter how you put it, it's still "technically" farming. You may ejoy gvg, but it's still "technically" farming balth faction. I love fow, but it's still farming
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careyt
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
You do realize that no matter how slow you do it, it's still technically farming? Once you've done an area once, everything that follows is, by definition, farming.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Recap:
Anyone who thinks an SF nerf will bring back balanced teams is deluding themselves. |
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
i play the occasional AB, RA, random pve mission, and some gvg. i turn all the luxon/kurzick faction i have into materials, leave after every RA match whether i have a good group or not. i do pve missions purely to play with my friends who can't pvp well. lastly, i gvg because i enjoy it.
what am i farming? unless you believe you can actually farm FUN, then i guess i'm not farming anything now, am i? if that's the cause, please retract your last statement. it is incorrect. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
Recap:
Anyone who thinks an SF nerf will bring back balanced teams is deluding themselves. |
Riot Narita
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Life Bringing
You do realize that no matter how slow you do it, it's still technically farming? Once you've done an area once, everything that follows is, by definition, farming.
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Once you've done an area once, everything that follows is, by definition, GRINDING. Not farming.
:-P
Targren
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Originally Posted by Enon
Yeah, Cobalt is right. There are hardly any players left. Go to a random town, say Kaineng or Kamadan, and I will guarantee you it is empty...
Seriously dude, this game has more than enough players left. And I'm sure 90% of them will keep playing after SF is nerfed. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
I get the feeling the people who oppose the Shadow Form nerf are those people who're selling Ectos / ZKeys etc for real life $$$, and the nerf is so going to hurt their income, and they can't stand it.
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#1) Shadow form doesn't effect Zkeys. At all.
#2) By any logic, a shadow form nerf will *raise*, not lower, prices for ectos both in game and for the RMT scum. They have numbers of employees who can farm for ectos (even in tombs, if it becomes necessary!), and would likely be in favor of this, since it reduces their competition.
Your efforts to rhetorically demonize the opposition by associating them with RMTs is intellectually dishonest and plain wrong.
Jeydra
I'll admit it wasn't the best way of putting it, but I'll also point out that I didn't accuse everyone who opposes the nerf to be trading in real life money ("I get the feeling ...").
By the way Shadow Form obviously affects ZKeys because the more money you got the more ZKeys you can buy. Also of course a nerfed Shadow Form will raise prices of the things you can farm directly with Shadow Form, but not necessarily others, e.g. lots of ZKeys are generated from ATs and such by players unaffiliated with gold-selling companies, who'd then be able to out-compete them, yada yada yada.
In any case I'm just insulted by some people's assertion that after you've done everything, all that's left for you is to farm. Like what the heck. This argument is so ridiculous and the refutation so obvious I get the feeling only the people who do precisely this even advance this argument, and of course people who only play this game to farm stuff they can sell for real-life money would fall head-first into this category.
Nerf Shadow Form, make it impossible to maintain or change its functionality or whatever, I don't care, just make it such that teams based on Permas can't farm dungeons / missions / areas 10x faster than everyone else.
By the way Shadow Form obviously affects ZKeys because the more money you got the more ZKeys you can buy. Also of course a nerfed Shadow Form will raise prices of the things you can farm directly with Shadow Form, but not necessarily others, e.g. lots of ZKeys are generated from ATs and such by players unaffiliated with gold-selling companies, who'd then be able to out-compete them, yada yada yada.
In any case I'm just insulted by some people's assertion that after you've done everything, all that's left for you is to farm. Like what the heck. This argument is so ridiculous and the refutation so obvious I get the feeling only the people who do precisely this even advance this argument, and of course people who only play this game to farm stuff they can sell for real-life money would fall head-first into this category.
Nerf Shadow Form, make it impossible to maintain or change its functionality or whatever, I don't care, just make it such that teams based on Permas can't farm dungeons / missions / areas 10x faster than everyone else.
Enon
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Originally Posted by Targren
That might be a bit more honest if you actually do go to a "random town" instead of zooming in on the two most congested towns in the game...
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AtomicMew
Quote:
| In any case I'm just insulted by some people's assertion that after you've done everything, all that's left for you is to farm. Like what the heck. This argument is so ridiculous and the refutation so obvious |
The argument has gone like this:
After you beat the game, everything you do is essentially farming. Farming based on SF is the only thing enjoyable left in the game.
Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms.
Counter-refutation: Exactly, it's all preference.
Several people have expressed that they prefer "storyline" (which honestly, is quite beyond me.) You prefer non-SF based activities. But the fact is, a very LARGE number of people enjoy SF-based activities.
In this light, saying you want SF nerfed sounds pretty selfish. Its also pretty hypocritical.
toocooltang
Why does everyone get all upset over nerfs? When ursan was nerfed it was the best thing to happen to me because I got to learn how to play the game all over agian. If SF gets nerfed so what? You can't do UWSC anymore, is that really a huge deal? Its a great time to go play other classes and try new builds for different things. I know you might not think its true, but you still can do elite areas without shadowform
moriz
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Originally Posted by traversc
And now , the flipside. That the argument went this way was entirely predictable.
The argument has gone like this: After you beat the game, everything you do is essentially farming. Farming based on SF is the only thing enjoyable left in the game. Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms. Counter-refutation: Exactly, it's all preference. Several people have expressed that they prefer "storyline" (which honestly, is quite beyond me.) You prefer non-SF based activities. But the fact is, a very LARGE number of people enjoy SF-based activities. In this light, saying you want SF nerfed sounds pretty selfish. Its also pretty hypocritical. |
assertion: After completing the storyline, there's nothing to do but farm.
Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms.
Counter-refutation: Exactly, oranges taste good.
your counter to the counter has absolutely nothing to do with your assertion. in fact, your assertion is an all-encompassing blanket statement, which leaves no room for "preference", as you put it.
lastly, i highly doubt that there's a very LARGE number of people who enjoy using SF. you might want to back up your claim before spouting off.
HawkofStorms
Once you deconstruct the argument down to the point where "playing a game = farming" you basically are arguing not against the value of Guild Wars, but about the value of video games as a concept.
Using some of the logic here, I half expect people here to live in a small wooden cabin in the middle of the woods far away from all technology.
Using some of the logic here, I half expect people here to live in a small wooden cabin in the middle of the woods far away from all technology.
Life Bringing
Quote:
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Originally Posted by toocooltang
Why does everyone get all upset over nerfs? When ursan was nerfed it was the best thing to happen to me because I got to learn how to play the game all over agian. If SF gets nerfed so what? You can't do UWSC anymore, is that really a huge deal? Its a great time to go play other classes and try new builds for different things. I know you might not think its true, but you still can do elite areas without shadowform
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SonofGrenth
If they reduce duration and forget that it could be maintainable with essence+paradox+swiftness, ill crap my pants. for real.
Coverticus
It's amazing how the focus seems to be purely on UWSC for this.
Anyway I could type chapter and verse in terms of my viewpoints but have said them too many times within other threads on this very subject.
All I will say it this - I hope ANet put a decent amount of thought and testing into the changes they are making/have made to Shadow Form (and potentially others based upon the skills sets used by Permas). But what makes me a little mad is this would have been the perfect opportunity for the Test Krewe to get their hands dirty on this and try and break whatever ANet do to it. Sadly though, since the TK is going to be focussed on PvP for now, this will be a missed boat.
Unless ANet have a slight rethink on this too.
Anyway I could type chapter and verse in terms of my viewpoints but have said them too many times within other threads on this very subject.
All I will say it this - I hope ANet put a decent amount of thought and testing into the changes they are making/have made to Shadow Form (and potentially others based upon the skills sets used by Permas). But what makes me a little mad is this would have been the perfect opportunity for the Test Krewe to get their hands dirty on this and try and break whatever ANet do to it. Sadly though, since the TK is going to be focussed on PvP for now, this will be a missed boat.
Unless ANet have a slight rethink on this too.
Lyn_Darksight
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
lastly, i highly doubt that there's a very LARGE number of people who enjoy using SF. you might want to back up your claim before spouting off.
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All you need to do to confirm the LARGE number of people enjoying the use of Shadowform is what the majority of the pro-nerf QQ'ers are complaining about...go to ToA AmDis 1 and press 'P'.
"Nerf this skill because i don't like to run it!" is a completely selfish and illogical argument. Play your own game.
- Yes, I have UWSC'd. If you haven't, you might be surprised at the number of people who fail at this "invulnerable" farm.
- No, this is not the only thing I play, or even the only thing I do with my Assassin.
- Anyone who thinks Shadowform is invulnerable has not used it.
- Shadowform has ALREADY been nerfed, and they left it maintainable on purpose!
- The richest guys I know in-game did not get that way on a 'permasin', they run dungeons with a 600 Monk using a smiter hero
this post is now open for flaming
HawkofStorms
1) Pugs failing is not a judge of the OP of the farm. Good guild teams do this run consistently.
2) It's not the only thing you play, but it is the MAIN thing being played. Want to run another build in UW? Good luck getting a team for it.
3) SF is invulnerable for the locations it is used against. If you can't SF there, then you don't SF farm there. That's like saying 55 isn't a good farming build because there are enchantment striping. If there are skills that go through 55 or SF, then those areas aren't farmed with those builds.
4) And now a.net has said it was a mistake to leave it maintainable. It was an error to do it in the first place.
5) Richest players in the game got so via power trading. Farming is for chumps.
Finally, it does affect people who don't UWSC farm via inflation. It is also degenerative game play. People who SF farm don't learn skills useful for the rest of the game (aggro control, group dynamics, designing builds, etc).
Consider yourself refuted Lyn.
2) It's not the only thing you play, but it is the MAIN thing being played. Want to run another build in UW? Good luck getting a team for it.
3) SF is invulnerable for the locations it is used against. If you can't SF there, then you don't SF farm there. That's like saying 55 isn't a good farming build because there are enchantment striping. If there are skills that go through 55 or SF, then those areas aren't farmed with those builds.
4) And now a.net has said it was a mistake to leave it maintainable. It was an error to do it in the first place.
5) Richest players in the game got so via power trading. Farming is for chumps.
Finally, it does affect people who don't UWSC farm via inflation. It is also degenerative game play. People who SF farm don't learn skills useful for the rest of the game (aggro control, group dynamics, designing builds, etc).
Consider yourself refuted Lyn.
AtomicMew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
so in other words, here's your counter argument:
assertion: After completing the storyline, there's nothing to do but farm. Refutation: That's not true at all, I enjoy doing other things in the game besides SF-based farms. Counter-refutation: Exactly, oranges taste good. your counter to the counter has absolutely nothing to do with your assertion. in fact, your assertion is an all-encompassing blanket statement, which leaves no room for "preference", as you put it. |
You completely missed the point.
If the argument for nerfing SF is based on preference, then theres no reason other than selfishness to say you want SF nerfed.
That's pretty terrible.
Quote:
| lastly, i highly doubt that there's a very LARGE number of people who enjoy using SF. you might want to back up your claim before spouting off. |
Considering how little you just admitted to knowing, you accused ME of "spouting off"? Take a look in the mirror.
Quote:
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1) Pugs failing is not a judge of the OP of the farm. Good guild teams do this run consistently. 2) It's not the only thing you play, but it is the MAIN thing being played. Want to run another build in UW? Good luck getting a team for it. |
2) Bad argument refuted TIME AND AGAIN. No, we won't do UW balancedway with you if SF gets nerfed.
Quote:
|
Finally, it does affect people who don't UWSC farm via inflation. It is also degenerative game play. People who SF farm don't learn skills useful for the rest of the game (aggro control, group dynamics, designing builds, etc). Consider yourself refuted Lyn. |
Also degenerative gameplay? Aggro control? Aggro is 90% of what being a good perma is all about.
Lyn refuted? No sorry. You just posted a bunch of bad arguments and straw men.
maxxfury
i like the part where people piss and moan about it all! 'Tiss fun!
If anet wants to nerf it...it will happen...in some half assed slightly off the mark kind of way
Plenty of things to do but SF an area...or grind with sf for 'titles'
Quick note: stuff gets nerfed.. adapt. Dont cry about it.
If anet wants to nerf it...it will happen...in some half assed slightly off the mark kind of way
Plenty of things to do but SF an area...or grind with sf for 'titles'
Quick note: stuff gets nerfed.. adapt. Dont cry about it.
Jeydra
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Lyn_Darksight
"Nerf this skill because i don't like to run it!" is a completely selfish and illogical argument. Play your own game.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by traversc
...
You completely missed the point. If the argument for nerfing SF is based on preference, then theres no reason other than selfishness to say you want SF nerfed. That's pretty terrible. |
That's wrong.
Next?
Quote:
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Originally Posted by traversc
2) Bad argument refuted TIME AND AGAIN. No, we won't do UW balancedway with you if SF gets nerfed.
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moriz
Quote:
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You completely missed the point. If the argument for nerfing SF is based on preference, then theres no reason other than selfishness to say you want SF nerfed. That's pretty terrible. |
again, prove that "there's nothing to do in this game after the storyline but farm".
oh btw, i just dropped by temple of the ages. as of 9:45PM EST, there's less than a dozen advertisements for UWSC. for a peak time, this is pretty insignificant amount of players we're dealing with here. so no, there aren't "a very LARGE" number of players using it.
AtomicMew
Quote:
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Originally Posted by moriz
again, prove that "there's nothing to do in this game after the storyline but farm".
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Let's be clear: why do you play this game? What exactly do you enjoy that you haven't already done a million and one times?
Quote:
| oh btw, i just dropped by temple of the ages. as of 9:45PM EST, there's less than a dozen advertisements for UWSC. for a peak time, this is pretty insignificant amount of players we're dealing with here. so no, there aren't "a very LARGE" number of players using it. |
First of all 12 people is A LOT of people... far more people than you'll ever find searching at once for any activity, besides maybe DSC or something. Remember, that's just people searching, not playing.
Secondly, why in God's name do you think 9:45 PM EST is peak time? Are you really that ethnocentric??? It is not the peak time. You clearly don't know anything about UWSC.
If you really want to get a good idea, try around ~12 hours earlier. Of course you're not going to do this, because you've already made up your mind. Even if you do, you'll make up some lame argument like "lol 2 full districts daily isn't really that many people." Come on dude... the only place that has more people is spamadan.
Stop it... Just stop. Stop denying how popular SF is. Until you can at least do this, you have zero ground to stand on.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Jeydra
It is impossible to play your own game so long as Shadow Form exists. I argued why elsewhere. You cannot ignore the fact that Shadow Form exists, like it or not.
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Play the game how you like to play. Why concern yourself with other people? Apparently, you think that there are lots of other people that think the way you do. Why don't you guys get together and balance-way UW? What exactly is stopping you?
Is it the fact that the existence of SF makes it inefficient? I thought you said you do things for "fun" and not for "farm"? Come on, make up your mind.
Quote:
| Since when did Shadow Form = UWSC? Shadow Form affects so many areas in the game and the UW is but one of them. Want me to list others? Can you actually advance arguments for areas other than the UW? |
Next.