UWSC Nerf and Anet's "Progress"

So we all know that for pugs UWSC has been nerfed with the addition of skeletons, raising ecto prices to ~6.5k. While this may seem like a great thing to everyone who hated the fact that people were commonly clearing the underworld in ~20 minutes (pugs), it has simply spawned the next generation of UW Speed Clear Builds, as well as increasing the likelihood of a FoWSC Sinway catching on with your average (former) UWSCer.

With the addition of skeletons, the two common farming/gimmick builds in HM UW are 600/smite, as well as SF still having some ability to do this. So, some smart people took those facts and created two additional builds-

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_Monky_UWSC, which is 4 600/Smite teams that completed UW with an unconfirmed 25 minutes for the time.

The other one, which has already gotten some attention on this forum due to it's formerly offensive name is http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_UWSC_Mobway. This build basically has 2 A/E's that run around and pop all the reapers and 5-6 A/D's who gang up on targets and beat them to death, completing the quests as a team that the A/E's cannot. Out of the current 3 publicly available UWSC builds (I'm sure other guilds are developing their own) I think that this one is the most likely to catch on with less serious guilds and pug groups.


The other build that has been brought to my attention is the http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Team_-_FoW_Sinway, which is able to clear the fissure of woe in ~15 minutes. What I find slightly comedic is the fact that a week after UWSC gets nerfed this goes public. I also think that this build has a high likelihood to catch on with pugs. At a glance this build looks incredibly pug-unfriendly, but you must remember that UWSC and even Ursanway with the triple terras were not pug friendly and looked overly complicated to begin with.


In the near future as these builds become more known and practiced by the public, more and more variants will emerge, making comparable times with the UWSC we once knew. What can Anet do short of a nerf to Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker? Honestly, the answer is beyond me.

~The_Crippster

Who says the the skeletons are the only thing to be implemented for the nerf of UWSC? DHUUM is still to come!!! We will just have to wait and see.
;-)

They could just nerf Obsidian Flesh, Shadow Form and Spell Breaker

Immunity god mode skills just shouldn't exist in the game. Builds that have foolproof survivability in given situations are inevitable, and I suspect a good thing in the game, but the sheer ubiquity of these god mode builds is a massive problem. Given what they have nerfed out of existance in the past, it's pretty frustrating that they won't fix the truely game breaking skills.

Blow up SF. Blow up OF. PvE/PvP split SB (it has PvP uses), giving it a *shorter* PvE duration. Solved.

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

This, ffs THIS.

SF has been the worst example of degenerate garbage forEVER. Why oh WHY does ANET have such a raging hardon for this skill that they can't relegate it to the shithole it's belonged in for SO long now?

fay i belive u raise an interesting point but 90% of the time i am against the person im about to quote but for once i belive wat hes saying is actually good and true

quoting chocoboko1 or something sorry im terrible with spelling

Because that would make every PvE Assassin cry, and would make them not buy GW2. Anet is trying to find the middle way out of this to not turn their backs on either side, so future sales won't be put at risk. The result: some half-baked updates in an attempt to shut the anti-SF crowd.

agreed. anet, you are doing it wrong.

Why don't they just remove these skills from the game entirely? Or /smiteboon and make them nonelites? I understand why SF should be nerfed, and I'm not against it completely. I do use it, but only as an advantage in farming. I'll be disappointed when it's nerfed, but I won't qq and quit, since there will be plenty of ways to farm. However, on the other two, you're getting pretty ridiculous. SB is SO far from "godmode"... 25sec duration and 45sec recharge is hardly permable. OF was given the 50% slower movement to balance the armor and invulnerability to spells. If you take away the armor or invulnerability to spells, this skill is pointless and may as well be removed from the elite list.

Also, I'd like to point out the obvious fact that you will NEVER be happy. You move from one 'meta' or 'op' skill or build to the next, crying relentlessly that it's imbalanced. Once SF is nerfed, what will you attack next? 600/smite, again? E/Me terras? How about instead whining constantly that it's not fair, you actually log on and play the game? We WILL NOT return to the 'balanced' team of a warrior tank and ele nukers. It's too slow. Plain and simple.

thanks for the sinway link. time to learn fow roles.

people will always try to clear an area in the fastest time possible. if you're just going to bitch about the way people play the game instead of enjoying whats given to you, then you have bigger problems than sf/obs/sb

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

I disagree with this blanket statement.

OF is fine as is because it only protects against spells. Skills and Attacks still hit, AND there is that horrible movement penalty...

SB is also fine as-is because it doesnt protect against skills and attacks either, just spells.

SF is broken because it protects against spells and attacks. The only way to hurt a perma-sin is by touching or no-target-specified AoE, which arent widely used by monsters in the game...


[edit] Also, the other problem with perma-sin is their ability to basically run past everything, kill a target, then move on to next objective. Take Oola's Lab dungeon for example: The perma runs through all of level 1, kills Xien, then picks up the key and moves to level 2. On level 2, they run past everything, kill golem, pick up key then move to level 3. If alone, the perma only has to kill the TPS golem to get reward...Its the same with almost everything a perma can run, i.e. they skip everything in between and simply get the rewards.

With a 600/Smite team, or a balanced team, they have to kill everything in-between...

Supply and Demand

Being able to farm elite areas easily = more supply = lower price.

While this isn't directly a bad thing, ectos and the like are constantly in demand, and the easier they are to get, the less rewarding it is for players once they have a good number of them, and it effects the price of nearly everything else.

So it's not just a simple matter of "if you don't like it don't use it", because it effects everyone, including the people who aren't using it.

15 minutes you say..? *Puts down my book and picks up my staff* Time to do FoW I suppose since DoA is dead as usual.

So true Coil.

Where operating a 600 requires some skill and knowing the mob you are against SF doesn't require almost anything. Monkey see monkey do. "When the color picture in the top left corner starts to blink press 1, 2 and 3". Very rarely avoiding AoE damage and/or signets

To a degree I agree with you, however not everyone in GW are farmers and farm for ectos they play the game to do just that, play it for its content rather then the crazy world that is farming As a sidenote there are other ways to farm ectos without SF albeit slower of course.

Pol

So the power traders who make their money by taking advantage of ignorant traders are angry that their ectos are worth less because people made a sin, ranked up some titles, and waded through bad pugs and grinding to farm their fortune? Sounds completely legit.

there's no such thing as an anti sf crowd, you can just find a bunch of loudmouths on guru

the problem is not sf, or any farming build... the problem is that elite areas are so poorly designed that they are nothing more than farming areas

you can nerf anything you want, people will keep on farming with another build, and you won't see them in your 4 hours uw "balanced" pug

The movement penalty is easily negated with some combination of Essence, Rock Candy and Cupcakes. People are already eating Red Rocks; throw a Green Rock and a pair of Cupcakes at the problem and you're good for twenty minutes.

The problem with SB is that it solves a 605/smite's sole vulnerability. Damage isn't an issue on a 605 if you're intelligent about aggro. Unless you want to put Signet of Disenchantment everywhere, hitting SB is the way to address that.

If the OF can still safely run past content like it's an SF sin with Mantra of Earth and Stone Striker, then we're right back where we started. Granted, it'll be a lot more expensive to eat all that junk...but that'll just factor into pricing of the outputs (items/ectos/runs). Skilled players will probably find ways. Eventually those tricks will disseminate into the community.

Your welcome.

I don't mean to say that these skills should be nerfed/removed, I mean, I love running team split/speed builds, if not for the reward (I hosestly dont need more ingame stuff) but simply for fun. in UWSC my favorite role was mountains because I found it to be the most challenging and thus enjoyable for me.

I didn't mean for this to become a rage about SF/SB/OB thread and I supposed I should have written my original article with that thought in mind. I just meant to point out the fact that adding the skeletons and thus nerfing most of the farming builds that did NOT clear the underworld was not the solution.

People tend to think the solution is infact nerfing all these skills, when in fact there is quite a bit more to think about than just nerfing a skill straight out.

It never is. Changing Chaos Plains didn't kill UW farming; it just changed how people farmed. Adding Dying Nightmares just slowed people down. The list goes on.

There's nothing wrong with solo farming. It just shouldn't be so efficient that it crowds out other alternatives. Same for speed clears; there's nothing wrong with doing things quickly, but when a single approach is both efficient enough to crowd out alternatives and skilless, something should be done.

While we're on the subject, does anyone have any solution for a solo warrior farming in UW using the hundred blades build? It doesn't really work now that those skeletons are there.

Before perma SF and ursanway, ectos dropped very slowly in prices. When these builds became popular, the prices dropped quite quickly. Nightmares were a good change, as was the change to the plains. Perhaps in a few months I'll look back and think that skeletons were one of the best things to happen to UW, but for now, they're not the solution.


@MIlkywayM16 We're not on the subject

I think it's fine as it is. The only true problem with UWSC is that it was overfarmed to the point of wrecking the design of Guild Wars. And now? They're nuked.
Until the remaining farms get as ridiculous as UWSC, I see no reason why it should be nerfed.

ANet really needs to stop beating around the bush and just hit the core of this issue already, ffs.

During wintersday, skele-like creatures appear because of some awakening badass.

just add signets removing enchants for skeles.

Which not only hurts Shadow Form, but hurts any group that uses Enchantments.

And doesn't solve problems in FoW or EotN dungeons.

FoWSC Sinway hits ~15 mins. That's as ridiculous. Mobway can get under 30 still. Also ridiculous.

True, but what could you get from FoW other than shards? Ectos drive the high end economy. And you can't get them in FoW. So FoW is pretty harmless, unless that is Obbi edge is suddenly the new ecto? It requires a conset, to my knowledge. And each person pays 1k on entry. So without ectos, you gaina significantly less amount than UW.

As insane as it might be, it doesn't make any game-breaking wrecks either.

Couldnt have said it any better.

I have a feeling the same people complaining about SF, 600/smite, etc are gonna be the same ones Q.Q when ectos and other items skyrocket in price.

You can't honestly believe that it's fair to nerf an elite skill because an outside source improves it's originally intended effect... That's insane. You may as well claim that people with PCs that are better than the minimum requirements shouldn't be allowed to play.

To fix the problem with OF, just make the movement penalty concrete. The cons shouldn't effect it. Also, godmode is stupid, Nerf SF. Period. This has gone from amusing to almost questioning whether or not GW2 will suffer from a stupid stubborness. Then, a few more adjustments to UW and FOW to combat gimmicks, hopefully to promote build diversity, can be implemented. FINALLY, increase reward payout. The elite areas all have "chambers" with varying themes....chests for clearing that particular place would be nice...and no, not those stupid ass unlocked ones with horrible grapes.

It's been said many times over. You nerf SF and something else will take it's place. As history has shown we've been able to adapt and run times have ultimately gotten faster and faster.

Go ahead cry for nerfs. See how far that gets you.

1. Monsters are broken. Physical monsters in elite areas hit too hard to manage balancedway. Nuker mobs and attributes for monsters are OP 200+ AoE is imba. Monk monsters heal for too much to manage with steady stream of dmg from balanced team.

2. Design of entire elite area is poor. Non linear elite areas with bugged and static, predictable objectives. Same monster mobs with predictable skills, behaviors, and patrol patterns.

3. Invent gimmick. Ursan Blessing, Imbagon, 55/600 Smite duo, Shadowform. Pick your poison. Classes vamped for pvp (Mesmer, Sin, Rit) and poorly designed(Para, Derv) get little to no love except select gimmick builds that can be generically applied to almost any area due to the sheer intensity of how broken the build is (SF, Spirit spam, Imba)

4. Use unique properties of gimmick to abuse the design of an elite area and clear easily with little skill, thought, and time put into efforts. Buy consumables to make it even easier. Propagate bullshit amongst peers.

SF, OF, and SB are only the third step needed to abuse an elite area where nerfing them is the quickest easiest solution that does not address the core problem underlying speed clears.

Linear pathways thru elite areas should make it take longer even if a gimmick is used, reducing the need of a gimmick build. Mobs and monsters need to adjusted accordingly to promote balanced gameplay where each and every profession has an equal chance to participate in an elite area. Since these monsters are broken the need for a gimmick arises and takes priority over a balanced group. (How else to deal with a group of 10+ lvl 30 monsters pumping out 100-300 dmg each each couple of seconds w/o something that is also broken?)

Realistically UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz should take 1-2 hours gimmick or balanced. DoA and slavers should take 3-5 hours but are able to be completed piece wise and progressively with rewards from chests and drops scaled accordingly.

There are more important things to do before a nerf to SF, OF, and SB are applied, and various nerfs to SF, OF, SB need to be applied. Anet just now realizes that due to pvp classes have been terrible in pve and are adjusting with pve/vp splits. However, that cannot apply to all classes where Sin, Mes, and Rit are very pvp oriented due to the lack of defense, AoE, and durability in pve or being outshined by other professions.
Dervish and paragons are excellent at what they do but are only used for very select builds to the point where nothing else becomes effective. They both need deep class reform.

Consumables only increase the problem allowing gimmicks to become more effective and even easier to pull off with the chance of failure being reduced.

So nerfing skills is not even the tip of the iceberg with so many issues at bay. Anet ignoring GW1 for GW2 doesnt help either b/c they figure GW1 is so broken they cannot continue with the same game.

Long winded amirite?

exactly/closed

Im one of those person that were against UWSC and now we have MobWay i have no problem with it.One of the big reasons I didn't like UWSC is because of the speed it cleared with.

With MobWay time is increased a nice ammount, with skelies now in UW it also makes it so people cant just sleepwalk through the place which is also nice.


If FoWSC does get more used it does not matter I believe,FoW is nowhere near as hard as UW,you dont get mobs that hit you for 300+ damage,the time and work demand on the player side isn't that high.I highly doubt that the big part of the community would narrow their choices for a FoW just to save some time.