Shadow Form meets the end - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

07 Dec 2009 at 01:51 - 521

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Nope this is the cause:

Well, no disagreement here, both aspects need fixing. Trying to deny there was a problem with Broken Form (or any otehr OTT farm build) and adding more pain to farming areas to attempt a fix was stupid. But equally these areas are just as Broken.

When HM came out, it looked as if ANet got this, they rebalanced RoT/DoA to make them more playable in NM, partly because they so badly over-did it in the first place. It's a shame that they didn't really stop to think any further than this, they knew their own game too well, and took council from too many top expert players so forgetting completely the masses of normal players who they were supposed to have designed the game for in the first place.

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

07 Dec 2009 at 10:10 - 522

Actually Fay, i'm not sure that's the case.
'Expert' PvE'ers did'nt want cons sets, OP pve skills and imba builds in the first place. If I remember rightly the consensus was that rather than introduce gimmick upon gimmick a proper review of the skills used by mobs was far preferable.

In my mind at least, the release of DoA was a watershed moment in GW PvE. Rather than make it nice, balanced area like UW and FoW they loaded it up with cheese, and apparently ignored the advice of the players who tested it.

DoA demanded gimmick builds and was profession exclusive by design. It's only natural that the builds used to overcome this area would filter to other areas and that in itself is only a natural consequence of the skill system used in the game.

What do I mean by that? In essence Gw's skill system relies on rock-paper-scissors. Skill A will overcome Skill B and will be rendered ineffective by skill C. With GW PvE the computer always rolls scissors, so once you have found out 'rock' there is no point doing anything else if you just want to get through or farm the content as easily as possible(which most 'normal' players do).

The fundimental failing point of GW and I hope this is fixed in Gw2. is'nt that Anet did'nt listen to normal players but that they have ensured that the mobs we face always, always bring the same skill set as they always did and so the ideal counter is always a PvxWiki away.

It does'nt matter what they do to shadow form or xyz farming build, that's only elastoplast'ing over 'the computer always rolls scissors' design failings of the GW PvE environment.

Had they introduced random mobs. I.e you did'nt know what you were going to face every time you went there. Then not only would GW have lasted longer, but the likes of Shadowform,PvE skills etc abuse could never have occured.

Benderama

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jul 2008

UK

[Rage]

Rt/

07 Dec 2009 at 19:57 - 523

hopefulyl we wont get a big drop in players jsut ebcause SF goes, least most people will stick around for tinwtersday and canthan new year, if not the GW2 info promised next year. least players will all be rushing to find a new solo build which will be interesting...
i suppose they might nerd obsidian tanks too? are tehy buffing any old skills in the next update?

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

07 Dec 2009 at 20:01 - 524

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benderama

i suppose they might nerd obsidian tanks too? are tehy buffing any old skills in the next update?

We're not even sure they're nerfing anything. They may actually buff certain areas to combat the meta builds. Everything is speculation at the moment.

doomfodder

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2007

farm

R/

07 Dec 2009 at 22:18 - 525

Quote:

Originally Posted by high priestess anya

Wrong answer -1 epeen
I know of quite a few ways of handling huge DOA mobs and half of em dont include gimmicks, there is more than enough skills in this game to manage any HM area.
Maybe you should ask around =D
SF is uneccessary, it just makes it mime numbingly easy and lets face facts, HM areas shouldnt be easy, the day pugs can hammer elite areas is the day gw took a nose dive

quite a few ways... each of which is some form of a tank? something like SF? QZ/SB? Bonded Mist Form or Obs Flesh mayB? I presume that each of these non-gimmmcks require at least the support of another player (bonds, echants, etc.) Cool!!! Teamwork!!! THE point is that each of those ways for "handling huge DOA mobs" requires managing the aggro to kill the mobs B4 the back line wipes. 8 man teams in HM DoA simply don't have sufficient energy or health (even with cons) to OUTLAST the HM DoA mobs, so the mobs need to be killed faster than the mobs kill. That means a nice tight ball of foes. That means a tank. SF is just a way.

But still, I'm asking around for those "quite a few ways". Cause if they were common knowledge, then why wouldn't the gaming community be using them & NOT complaining about SF????? Remember, if another proffession or skill could manage aggro the way SF does, SINS wouldn't be REQUIRED members of HM elite area teams (VS farm runs for example).

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

07 Dec 2009 at 22:43 - 526

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

quite a few ways... each of which is some form of a tank? something like SF? QZ/SB? Bonded Mist Form or Obs Flesh mayB? I presume that each of these non-gimmmcks require at least the support of another player (bonds, echants, etc.) Cool!!! Teamwork!!! THE point is that each of those ways for "handling huge DOA mobs" requires managing the aggro to kill the mobs B4 the back line wipes. 8 man teams in HM DoA simply don't have sufficient energy or health (even with cons) to OUTLAST the HM DoA mobs, so the mobs need to be killed faster than the mobs kill. That means a nice tight ball of foes. That means a tank. SF is just a way.

DoA is a crappy area that is just as broken as SF itself. However SF isn't just prevalent in DoA, it's in any area with a pretty shiny.

Quote:

Originally Posted by doomfodder

But still, I'm asking around for those "quite a few ways". Cause if they were common knowledge, then why wouldn't the gaming community be using them & NOT complaining about SF????? Remember, if another proffession or skill could manage aggro the way SF does, SINS wouldn't be REQUIRED members of HM elite area teams (VS farm runs for example).

Permaform sins do not just tank, they do large amounts of DPS. Is it a problem where a team of one profession clears an entire area faster than a balanced team? Is it a problem when one person can clear an entire dungeon that would be difficult for a normal team of 8? Is it a problem when one profession can farm something with invincibility that other professions can't? It should be.

]HM[ Sabre Wolf

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Oct 2006

USA

Servants of Fortuna

W/

07 Dec 2009 at 23:05 - 527

IMO... SF should have never been implemented in the game to begin with. I am not QQin the fact of using it... if its there, go ahead and use the **** skill... its ANET's fault for giving players the access/abilites to use it and abuse it. No different then RR TBH. But what I am saying is that the skill should have never been implemented into the game. A Semi-God Mode skill that prevents 90% (est) skills in the game and can be upkept is broken. I am cool with 600/Smites and 55 because the number of skills to do these builds takes up about 75% of a bar (or 2 bars for 600/Smite) to run and they still have several weaknesses. SF only takes 25% of a bar to run... allowing a lot of room for other things. So I would not mind an end to the SF madness. The skill is broken and should not have been introduced into the game in the first place. But until Dec 17th (my guess for the update) abuse the heck out of it. I am not sure why ANET is threating other farming builds on top of SF... but thats for another thread.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

07 Dec 2009 at 23:55 - 528

Quote:

Originally Posted by ]HM[ Sabre Wolf

IMO... SF should have never been implemented in the game to begin with. I am not QQin the fact of using it... if its there, go ahead and use the **** skill... its ANET's fault for giving players the access/abilites to use it and abuse it. No different then RR TBH. But what I am saying is that the skill should have never been implemented into the game. A Semi-God Mode skill that prevents 90% (est) skills in the game and can be upkept is broken. I am cool with 600/Smites and 55 because the number of skills to do these builds takes up about 75% of a bar (or 2 bars for 600/Smite) to run and they still have several weaknesses. SF only takes 25% of a bar to run... allowing a lot of room for other things. So I would not mind an end to the SF madness. The skill is broken and should not have been introduced into the game in the first place. But until Dec 17th (my guess for the update) abuse the heck out of it. I am not sure why ANET is threating other farming builds on top of SF... but thats for another thread.

Neither should lvl 30 monsters with 300dmg per hit, environmental effect, crazy quests that can insta-wipe the group just because of grabbing it at the wrong time, defending NPC that doesn't even show up on the list, quest that literally requires a super tank on one side (4 horsemen), etc.

(All for 2 ectos after 3 hours of work with a "balanced" pug)

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

08 Dec 2009 at 00:40 - 529

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benderama

hopefulyl we wont get a big drop in players jsut ebcause SF goes, least most people will stick around for tinwtersday and canthan new year, if not the GW2 info promised next year. least players will all be rushing to find a new solo build which will be interesting...
i suppose they might nerd obsidian tanks too? are tehy buffing any old skills in the next update?

Nah they wont , lots of cheap talkers but most of them wont leave. This update is known as the SF update but i guess some other stuff will be there.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

08 Dec 2009 at 00:47 - 530

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Nah they wont , lots of cheap talkers but most of them wont leave. This update is known as the SF update but i guess some other stuff will be there.

Did people look at DoA lately?

zwei2stein

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Jun 2006

Europe

The German Order [GER]

N/

08 Dec 2009 at 07:58 - 531

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

DoA demanded gimmick builds and was profession exclusive by design.

Screw doa, lets talk about class-related design in general and mesmers particulary.

Hardmode with double skill activation times and half recharge screwed up pretty much any crowd controll other than dazing enemies, knockdownlocking em or simply raw dps.

Not even talking about prophecies bosses with their half hex durations under HM boosts ...

This is pretty much middle finger for mesmers, the one case they would be most usefull they also get gimped.

And there were assassins and afflicted mobs issue...

DoA was nto first case, it was first case it trully went out of controll and you got "screw you, physicals" status effect.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

08 Dec 2009 at 10:42 - 532

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Did people look at DoA lately?

Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game fyi ...

Horace Slughorn

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2008

Experientia Docet [OHX], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA], We Gat Dis [HRUU]

W/

08 Dec 2009 at 11:54 - 533

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game fyi ...

For me it basically would. I pretty much log in, wait for doa to form, and chat with friends list in between runs. It's the only reasonably efficient way to make cash while playing with guildies.

And call me selfish, but I've accomplished everything I wanted in terms of titles, and clearing content on my own. All I want to do now is make money to buy shiny things. Is that so bad?

Shanaeri Rynale

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Aug 2005

DVDF(Forums)

Me/N

08 Dec 2009 at 12:19 - 534

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Screw doa, lets talk about class-related design in general and mesmers particulary.

Hardmode with double skill activation times and half recharge screwed up pretty much any crowd controll other than dazing enemies, knockdownlocking em or simply raw dps.

Not even talking about prophecies bosses with their half hex durations under HM boosts ...

This is pretty much middle finger for mesmers, the one case they would be most usefull they also get gimped.

And there were assassins and afflicted mobs issue...

DoA was nto first case, it was first case it trully went out of controll and you got "screw you, physicals" status effect.

I never had much issue in HM playing mesmer and was LV,LG before pve skills/cons sets etc came out. I think CoP came out about 2-3 weeks after I was done.

I think it came down to the effort required. I had about ten hard mode vanquishing builds I used and developed. For me a lot of the fun of HM was adapting a build to suit the area.

I accept many players don't want to think about the builds they use and just want to zap and go which brings us back on topic.

The class system is not a weakness of GW imho. It's the way the pve mobs carry the same set of skills as they ever have thats the issue. The whole Shadowform/gimick/solo farming thing relies on the fact that people know what they are going to face and can so build for it. Professions don't really come into it, unless that profession can run <insert fotm>-way

Remember when COP-way was all the fad, mesmers were wanted everwhere, when that got nerfed so rits came to the fore, before that it was monks etc etc. If you did'nt know what sort of skills a mob use you'd take a lot more of a balanced team to be able to deal with it.

Actually, that would be a fun idea. Before you zone in, the server takes a look at your skill set and adjusts the ones of the mobs you'll be facing accordingly

isildorbiafra

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

The Netherlands

W/

08 Dec 2009 at 12:58 - 535

Let me put it this way. You know something must be broken when a loyal gamer takes 2 to 5 years of honest hard work to get gwamm; where as a newcomer is able to max gwamm and acumulate a full inventory of ectos by just running 1 build over a period of 3 to 6 months.

Hell; come to think of it I might just buy GW2 4 years afther release (at 50% the original cost) and still endup having MORE of everything!

Coast

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Jul 2006

Belgium

Whats Going On [sup]

Mo/

08 Dec 2009 at 13:07 - 536

seems to be a long meeting

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

08 Dec 2009 at 15:37 - 537

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Did people look at DoA lately?

I think the right answer is : Did GW emptied after teh Ursan Nerf?

ChaosWarrior

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Mar 2009

Chaos Wastes

W/

08 Dec 2009 at 15:45 - 538

DoA is awesome ^^, only if you have a good group tough.
What exactly do you mean with the ursan nerf Steps. I can't remember that one

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

08 Dec 2009 at 16:48 - 539

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Actually Fay, i'm not sure that's the case.
'Expert' PvE'ers did'nt want cons sets, OP pve skills and imba builds in the first place. If I remember rightly the consensus was that rather than introduce gimmick upon gimmick a proper review of the skills used by mobs was far preferable.

In my mind at least, the release of DoA was a watershed moment in GW PvE. Rather than make it nice, balanced area like UW and FoW they loaded it up with cheese, and apparently ignored the advice of the players who tested it.

DoA demanded gimmick builds and was profession exclusive by design. It's only natural that the builds used to overcome this area would filter to other areas and that in itself is only a natural consequence of the skill system used in the game.

What do I mean by that? In essence Gw's skill system relies on rock-paper-scissors. Skill A will overcome Skill B and will be rendered ineffective by skill C. With GW PvE the computer always rolls scissors, so once you have found out 'rock' there is no point doing anything else if you just want to get through or farm the content as easily as possible(which most 'normal' players do).

The fundimental failing point of GW and I hope this is fixed in Gw2. is'nt that Anet did'nt listen to normal players but that they have ensured that the mobs we face always, always bring the same skill set as they always did and so the ideal counter is always a PvxWiki away.

It does'nt matter what they do to shadow form or xyz farming build, that's only elastoplast'ing over 'the computer always rolls scissors' design failings of the GW PvE environment.

Had they introduced random mobs. I.e you did'nt know what you were going to face every time you went there. Then not only would GW have lasted longer, but the likes of Shadowform,PvE skills etc abuse could never have occured.

Honestly, the bolded part there is the best idea I've ever heard for balancing PvE. I want this. Now.

...Unfortunately, the amount of effort this would take makes it unfeasible given that Anet isn't making any more money off this puppy.

Still, this is definitely something they should explore for GW2, if they aren't already.

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

08 Dec 2009 at 19:47 - 540

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaosWarrior

DoA is awesome ^^, only if you have a good group tough.
What exactly do you mean with the ursan nerf Steps. I can't remember that one

Either you're trolling or you're too new to the game to have seen it. Seeing your join date I guess you're too young (game-wise, not real-life-wise).

Basically, when GWEN came out, a certain skill (Ursan Blessing) was introduced. Let's just say it is the only skill that generated as much hate as SF. ANn GW has had A LOT of (remembered-as-)overpowered skills (or build) in it's history.

Basically it packs so much damage mitigation (armor/hp/KD/weakness) that a team could pack a full conset, grab 2 monks to spam heals and the rest in UBs. In theory, any class could use it. In pratice, it promoted so much rank-discrimination and the fact that para/warrior/necros had an advantage that it was at long last made unusable as full team. The link is one of the few pages on the wikis that keep an history of the nerf (the fact that there's only 1, might explain it).

I still remember logging in one of the major pugging point and seeing both cries and joy in general chat! That was a seriously fun day!
(edited for spelling)

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

08 Dec 2009 at 20:12 - 541

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steps_Descending

I think the right answer is : Did GW emptied after teh Ursan Nerf?

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people. Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

I didn't see ToA increase by 3 district or more, indicating that people didn't just all move to UWSC after the ursan nerf. And even if they did....being stuck in a single area whenever I'm not with a guild group is NOT fun.

coil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

08 Dec 2009 at 20:26 - 542

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Honestly, the bolded part there is the best idea I've ever heard for balancing PvE. I want this. Now.

because adding an element of random chance helps to establish equilibrium (balance)....really?

i like the idea as well, but it just illustrates how fundamentally flawed the "balance pve" argument inherently is.

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

08 Dec 2009 at 20:45 - 543

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people. Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

I didn't see ToA increase by 3 district or more, indicating that people didn't just all move to UWSC after the ursan nerf. And even if they did....being stuck in a single area whenever I'm not with a guild group is NOT fun.

That didn't mean they left actually. Just that they moved from DoA/dungeon. Some of them probably indeed left. SOme of them probably went to the next gimmick (600). Some of them probably started playing other team gimmicks or started playing "legit" for a while. And some of them probably were looking for the next gimmick (what was it btw, I really don't remember seeing anythign special between UB and SF. Was CoP changed at that time).

But unless we had confirmation numbers, if the population didn't spike down and stay down, that doesn't mean they left, that means they went back to casual status or took a pause untill the meta re-stabilized.

(EDIT : there was a leap in logic there. I fixed it but that doesn't mean it's easy to understand now)

And btw didn't SCs start with the SF buff.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

08 Dec 2009 at 20:52 - 544

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people.

Sorry to repeat myself but what part of this "Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game" didnt you get ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

Woah "Dungeon players using Ursan vanished" ? lol no. They used another stuff , they didnt vanish from GW. The question is if ppl left GW , not X zone , Y dungeon or ToA or whatever. The answer is NO , ppl just changed builds and did something else.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

08 Dec 2009 at 20:58 - 545

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Sorry to repeat myself but what part of this "Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game" didnt you get ?

Woah "Dungeon players using Ursan vanished" ? lol no. They used another stuff , they didnt vanish from GW. The question is if ppl left GW , not X zone , Y dungeon or ToA or whatever. The answer is NO , ppl just changed builds and did something else.

That's a lot of assumption on both sides of the argument. I don't think there's even a chance to have the slightest clue as to what really occurred. At this point it's like arguing what color the Loch Ness monster really is.

toocooltang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

USA

ToA

W/

08 Dec 2009 at 21:06 - 546

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Yes. 3 district of DoA becomes 3 people. Dungeon players using Ursan literally vanished overnight leaving only the constant spamming for 600/smite run at doomlore. In fact the entire EoTN area literally felt more empty right after the nerf.

You know the advantage of ursan and SF is the fact that you can ignore large parts of the game completely. There was nothing out there in PVE that really shut down ursan and kill the team besides their own stupidity. You could literally steam roll every area by simply loading one skill on your skill bar. Its the same with SF, specfically SF on A/Es. The earth magic line is insanely OP because you get great defense (stoneflesh), great offense (sliver), and the ablity to ignore 90%+ of the game.

As far as PVE being truely balanced it never will be. The simple reason is the MOBs are high level, with monster skills. By default the player is at a disadvantage but that makes PVE a challenge. The solution to making it a little bit easier was PVE skills which 95% of them are just fine. SY and TNTF do stack to be 85% dmg reduction but how are you going to be able prot agiants a 350dmg lighting hammer in city when they cast at 50% faster.

Bottom line, PVE is not and never will be balanced, BUT a big part of guildwars is sucessful planning and coordination of your team before you take on an area. With shadowform and ursan you really dont have to because both of these skills require very little to no defense on a team wide level. Ursan you only need 3 HB monks in DOA to roll their head over the keyboard. I have seen and SF tank the whole last room in foundry, all he needed was life bond and he was able to sliver down most of the room, that is broken.

athariel

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: May 2009

E/A

08 Dec 2009 at 21:14 - 547

i think the pve problem is the hard counter system in GW (as someone said before, rock-paper-scissors). Melee-heavy group? drop a blind on them and they can't even harm you. Caster-heavy? put spellbreaker on and you won't be hurt at all. look at starcraft - lurkers are very effective against marines, but if you are pro you can defeat the lurker user with marines. In case of GW, having lurkers means your opponent's marines are completely useless.

I wonder how would GW work if spells were like these - Obsidian Flesh - 75% spell damage reduced OR 75% chance to dispel spells. Shadowform - 75% chance for attacks and spells to miss. That would take care of runners/farmers, while it wouldn't harm 'balanced' groups at all.

another problem are imbalanced spell combinations such as SY!+TntF!. I am not sure, but if a build is called "Imbagon" there is something wrong (similar case with godmode sin) with the game balance.

Kaleban

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Hot as hell Florida

[Wckd]

Me/

08 Dec 2009 at 21:15 - 548

Did anyone ever stop to think that the dominance of SF in high end areas was planned out by ANet as a reward to Sin players who put up with all the crap they got from 99% of the GW elitist playerbase claiming they were narutards?

Personally, SF is the reward for sticking with a class that has been marginalized since Factions came out. My Sin is 42 months old lol. Its only since EOTN came out, and more pronounced, the Ursan nerf, that Sins, specifically Permasins have been so in vogue and useful.

Its kind of nice to flip the bird to all the wammos, prot monks and Searing Flames eles that wouldn't take a Sin into DoA/Deep/Urgoz/FoW/UW etc. etc. if their lives depended on it, and now its as if these areas CAN'T be done without a Sin.

And that's because people will always gravitate to the builds that dole out the greatest reward for the minimal effort. The problem is not Shadowform, the problem is human nature itself. SF gets nerfed, then something else will take its place and the cycle will continue.

In my humble opinion, the ONLY reason for all the SF hate is because for the vast majority of GW players, Sins are NOT their main character and so were not able to take advantage of "easy mode" as so many people call it. Simple envy/jealousy rears its ugly head and creates these types of threads/QQ fests. I'm pretty sure if monks had a way to solo farm everywhere, there wouldn't be nearly this much hate directed towards them...

Oh. Wait. They have, and pretty much since GW was released. And how many times has the 55 build been nerfed? I believe its STILL around, and is effective in more areas than SF! Who knew?

So yeah, the problem isn't SF, its the people who can't stand not having their characters be the best at everything. And instead of placing the blame with themselves for being arrogant jerks who made fun of narutards, they blame SF as some sort of demonic skill that ruins the game.

Look in the mirror. What ruins the game is the human capacity for laziness and the ability to point the finger everywhere else but oneself.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

08 Dec 2009 at 21:18 - 549

PvE will never be balanced, but it doesn't have to be so insanely broken as it is now. SF makes Ursan look good!

When they finally got round to fixing Ursan you would have thought that a lesson may have been learned, that overpowered skills are not good for the game. Yet here we are, still with god mode Broken Form screwing the game over big, unbelievable incompetance.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

08 Dec 2009 at 21:27 - 550

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Oh. Wait. They have, and pretty much since GW was released. And how many times has the 55 build been nerfed? I believe its STILL around, and is effective in more areas than SF! Who knew?

As someone that owns both type of characters, SF out-farms the 55monk and it's not even close.

Steps_Descending

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Apr 2007

IN my pocket plane. Obviously!

Little Tom's Pocket Plane [THom]

Me/Mo

08 Dec 2009 at 21:27 - 551

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

That's a lot of assumption on both sides of the argument. I don't think there's even a chance to have the slightest clue as to what really occurred. At this point it's like arguing what color the Loch Ness monster really is.

Golgotha has a point. We can assume most people stayed one way or another,but unless we have numbers we can't completely be sure.
And I seriously think some people did actually left and never really come back beyond "retired" level of activity (logging to do a mission or 2 and logging out). Then again, if all it took them to leave was the nerf of the fastest gimmick, they were due to leave for a while. UB was just the last rope holding them back. We didn't lose much.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

08 Dec 2009 at 21:32 - 552

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

That's a lot of assumption on both sides of the argument. I don't think there's even a chance to have the slightest clue as to what really occurred. At this point it's like arguing what color the Loch Ness monster really is.

Well the thing is that , Droks , Spamadan and Kaineng have less ppl than before but its not about UB nerf. Cheap talkers said "if bla bla gets nerfed , a lot of ppl will quit" and no , i dont have a proof like 2+2=4 but i can really tell that didnt happen for sure.
Maybe those cities are not enough for you , ok , fair enough but please ..... DoA ? and ToA ? ppl just stay there , make a group and leave. Spamadan , LA , Droks and Kaineng have lots ppl for like 4h ( i can asure you that ) and didnt "feel" the UB nerf .... but i agree with you , cheap words dont deserve nothing.

coil

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Aug 2007

08 Dec 2009 at 21:46 - 553

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Yet here we are, still with god mode Broken Form screwing the game over big, unbelievable incompetance.

i'm content with the game at the moment & think they did a great job with the new content. not sure why youre in such an uproar.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

08 Dec 2009 at 22:02 - 554

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Well the thing is that , Droks , Spamadan and Kaineng have less ppl than before but its not about UB nerf. Cheap talkers said "if bla bla gets nerfed , a lot of ppl will quit" and no , i dont have a proof like 2+2=4 but i can really tell that didnt happen for sure.
Maybe those cities are not enough for you , ok , fair enough but please ..... DoA ? and ToA ? ppl just stay there , make a group and leave. Spamadan , LA , Droks and Kaineng have lots ppl for like 4h ( i can asure you that ) and didnt "feel" the UB nerf .... but i agree with you , cheap words dont deserve nothing.

One can also contest that a good portion of the remaining outposters are sellers and/or power traders rather than people that were playing any areas/missions to begin with.

UnChosen

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Mar 2006

08 Dec 2009 at 23:06 - 555

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

One can also contest that a good portion of the remaining outposters are sellers and/or power traders rather than people that were playing any areas/missions to begin with.

Or people who just go to PvE outposts to chat and fool around for a bit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Sorry to repeat myself but what part of this "Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game" didnt you get ?

Woah "Dungeon players using Ursan vanished" ? lol no. They used another stuff , they didnt vanish from GW. The question is if ppl left GW , not X zone , Y dungeon or ToA or whatever. The answer is NO , ppl just changed builds and did something else.

So what are they doing? ToA population didn't really increase, every non end game outpost are empty (and I've actually camped in some of them for a bit, and saw like two hero groups), no one wants to do dungeon...

In fact the only area I've seen with an increase in population after the ursan nerf is bergen hot spring, although the increase is the amount of monk bots (maybe they got more business cuz people can't do DoA anymore?). And maybe rata sum...

But once you get to that point, it doesn't really matter. If people don't play anything other than solo farm, then it is pretty much equal to people leaving. In fact, its WORSE than leaving because soloers still take up bandwidth. And then you have people complaining about lag...

Either way, its all anecdotal evidence. Maybe I was wrong, but that doesn't mean people saying "oh, no one will leave" is right.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

08 Dec 2009 at 23:16 - 556

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

One can also contest that a good portion of the remaining outposters are sellers and/or power traders rather than people that were playing any areas/missions to begin with.

Yeah well but if you are going to count ppl ...... i dont think that counting on Riverside Province , DoA , ToA are better than Droks , LA , Kamadan and Kaineng. Ofc their are trying to trade but at least they spent more time ingame than anyone in lets say ..... Dzagonur bastion. Those are like "hey lets search group" , try 3 -4 districts ... ok , fill with heroes , go. Not much time to count

Kaleban

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Hot as hell Florida

[Wckd]

Me/

09 Dec 2009 at 01:04 - 557

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golgotha

As someone that owns both type of characters, SF out-farms the 55monk and it's not even close.

Not to be a jerk, but you, among many others are completely missing the point.

First, the 55 has been around much longer, and in conjunction with the 600, is vastly superior in numbers and usage.

The Sin population explosion COULD be attributed to regular players who aren't in 1337 guilds or without a bunch of time making a character that could get them some level of wealth.

But ALL of this is irrelevant to the real problem. And that is that every player in game, from the guy that logs 1 hour a week to the most dedicated farmer are ALWAYS going to look for the quickest and easiest way.

That's not Shadowform's problem. IF it gets nerfed, something else will take its place. Heck, Obsidian tanks have been around forever, just like monk tank builds.

Which means multiple professions have "godmode" buttons. ITS NOT JUST SF. get that through your thick skulls.

As I said, the only reason I can really think of that there is so much SF hate is it allowed a "non-standard class" (i.e. not the holy trinity of war/monk/ele) to participate in the game, and causing those who didn't like the Sin class to QQ because they got booted from party selection for once.

Its akin to being picked last in a sandlot baseball game. The one time the nerdy, skinny guy gets picked first because he has a new trick, all the big dumb jocks who got used to preferential treatment whine and complain until an artificial ruling is created to put the status quo back.

Hypocrites, the lot of you. The funny thing is, all the peeps on Guru bitching about this skill and lauding a possible upcoming nerf don't even represent a slice of the GW playerbase. If ANet's devs listen to the hate on this site to guide skill balancing, then the game is already doomed.

Golgotha

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: May 2005

Rt/

09 Dec 2009 at 01:24 - 558

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Not to be a jerk, but you, among many others are completely missing the point..

Um, I'm against the SF nerf -- depending on how they go about it, that is. I was just pointing out an error in your statement.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

09 Dec 2009 at 01:29 - 559

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

i'm content with the game at the moment & think they did a great job with the new content. not sure why youre in such an uproar.

I hardly play the game any more. I just assert that the game is massively compromised by this bad skill. It's no skin off my nose of they keep it or nerf it. It's just sad that such a great game is so heavily neglected for so long.

Surely nobody can claim that SF isn't a problem?

Kaleban

Jungle Guide

Join Date: May 2005

Hot as hell Florida

[Wckd]

Me/

09 Dec 2009 at 02:58 - 560

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

I hardly play the game any more. I just assert that the game is massively compromised by this bad skill. It's no skin off my nose of they keep it or nerf it. It's just sad that such a great game is so heavily neglected for so long.

Surely nobody can claim that SF isn't a problem?

SF is not a problem.

I can play an assassin without taking Shadowform. I can also use Shadowform as another class, but without the support skills that allow it to perma. I can also Permasin.

However, to my knowledge, none of these uses have "broken" the game. In fact I was able to log in today with my Ritualist and play normally, and I saw many non-SF sins, along with all the other classes represented.

If one skill could make a game bad, then the game is flawed at its core. GW works, so SF is not flawed.

The nerf bat is used throughout gaming, and runs in cycles, SF is in ascendancy now, something better will replace it. This is nothing new. IF ANet nerfs it, even into oblivion, then some other build will take its place.

I assert that all the hate is due to this build being easy to run by "non-standard" classes (the war/monk/ele) and that its extremely hypocritical and childish to claim a game as far reaching as this is broken because of one skill in PvE.