Shadow Form meets the end

SF nerf is stoopid...how will we make money?

Like everyone else BEFORE SF!

Quoted for SLAP IN DA FACE!!!

tank and spank!! the same as it has been....forever

except perma tank isnt liked so find a new tank...and then anyone rich u can start and say 'ebayfreakz' again.

Indeed, they have never nerfed key farming skills before, Ursan is still all the rage too, isn't it?

Remember the accidental 'mantra of resolve' nerf in PvE recently? That was fixed rather quickly. Ursan is not 600 either. Playing Foundry HM as a 600 in a trio smite/famine team requires skill, timing and coordination. I use 7 of the 8 skills on my bar constantly.

dosnt matter if it it takes skill or no skill...its a farming bar so really....if SF goes tits up then so should the 600's...its only fair.

Does that mean 55's should get annihilated as well? Or 330 rit because they are both the same concept? O.o Who knows what they are going to do with SF. Maybe the update won't even be today. I mean Anet doesn't exactly have the best track record of being on time with their updates.

Out of curiosity will the skill balance be today or next week?

Pol

Everyone is assuming today in a few hours. Updates are SUPPOSE to be bi monthly and the 2nd Thursday.

LOL.

Besides the comments above my post:

You cannot buy skill (and I don't mean the icons on your bar which you copied from wiki/someone else) with money so why do yóu need it?

*continues to hope for an update tonight

If ANet nerfs SF because the Wammo crybabies don't like being supplanted by Sins, then YES all farming builds should be nerfed, its only fair.

It makes no sense for ANet to give in to the unjustified hate on one build, only to leave in builds that perform the same damn function that have been around longer and abused much more consistently and heavily.

That is my main problem with this whole debate, is that the hate on SF is unjustified and mainly due to a small percentage of the population throwing a tantrum because for ONCE, they got kicked to the curb, which Sin players have been dealing with since Day 2 of Factions.

I think the skill balance update should be today but nothing yet lol. We're at 2nd Thursday of the month

Edit: Maybe is because of the Xmas Update.

I guess they do the skill balance when Wintersday event starts, which is next week, or later to lessen the QQ that follows the SF nerf...that is if a substantial nerf is coming, which I still doubt.

Btw, I really like this lynching mood of the community. Too bad it takes forever to rise.

Agreed 100%. I don't really care about SF but when you get to a certain point in GW, farming is all that is left. A mass culling of popular (read: effective) farming builds would get me out of this game barring certain events to pick up cheap items or hats. Appeasement never works by the way, not in real life and clearly not in Guild Wars. Butchering a few builds/skills for short term gains will solve absolutely nothing in the long run. In fact, setting precedents only makes the vocal minority scream louder the next time since it gets results...case in point.

And that's quite a problem, considering GW's format: each and every area designed for a maximum party.

This is probably a huge reason why GW2 is solo friendly.

I'm curious. Most people against Shadow From still have no issue with farming itself, rather the extreme efficiency SF provides to the farming community. What causes you to be so against farming? Simply because areas are designed in a certain fashion?

The people who are so vehemently against Shadowform are mad because its not THEIR favorite build that allows such efficiency.

I guarantee that if Warrios could run a permaform build, no one would be complaining about it.

The insane thing is that in a game with limited content and designed as it is, farming is inevitable. And in that situation, builds will arise that are more efficient than others. Its a natural course of game evolution.

The hate on SF is simply because a marginalized class became the most efficient at farming, which is the natural end point of game content. So instead of rolling Sins (as Sins were told to do back before the ability to Permaform) the community throws a tantrum to get its way.

Whether this is out of maturity on the Sin players' part or simply because they're way too busy farming with SF before a potential nerf is debateable.

The truth is, this whole debate is basically a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. The players believe that optional, cosmetic content is necessary, therefore creating an imaginary "necessary" economy that is completely separated from actual gameplay. It is NOT like WoW's economy where items both drops and player made can make you more effective in game.

All the stuff people farm for in the end is a cosmetic enhancement. If people are willing to pay for it, either time or money, then yes it accrues a value, but all of that is completely arbitrary. Hence the hate on Shadowform is rediculous because people claim it affects gameplay, when all it really affects is a player's ability to more quickly pimp their ride.

Putting a tv in your car does not make it go faster, just as wearing Obsidian armor does not give you more protection. ANet's job is to balance gameplay, not eradicate efficient farming builds. Everyone has had the experience of rolling through a 2 hour long dungeon for a drop of two Onyx gemstones (I know I have) that I could have bought from a trader for less than 1 plat, which is easy to farm in 10 minutes or less.

Basically, efficient farming lowers your opportunity cost when compared to "balanced' playing through areas that do not have good risk/return ratios.

I don't know if I can explain this any easier, but basically Shadowform is not a problem, its all you whiny nerds who want your favorite pet classes to have the advantages, while leaving the "undesirables" like Sins, Dervs and Mesmers sitting in the wings.

Because the areas that are supposed to be completed by teams can be completed faster by a single permasin (or two in some cases), and that some areas are created with invinci-tanks in mind remove the "diversity" part of the game. Oh, and the fact that they've trashed other efficient farming builds in the past but see nerfing SF as "bad for the game."

im with you all the way on this SF debate and i give credit where credit is due ..but..... before the VS farm (one of the first to use perma regularly) onyx and diamonds were about 3-4k which wasnt as bad back then, so in essence we made them worthless...i dont say 'we' as in sins...but as high end weapon farmers.

High end dungeon farmers in general did this. I know some weekends I would so enough dungeon runs with my guild/alliance, that i would have close to a stack of diamonds/onyx. The fact of the matter is that yes, SF is extremely efficient, and allowed people to participate in elite areas with little problems. Sins were better farms then Monks/Rits/Warriors/Eles/any other class could of been, and that is where the hate stems from. People refused to give up their favorite farming builds/only farming builds they could run, and not jump on the band wagon and farm like the rest of us.

In the end, it was the same people who cried out Ursan was too powerful, and now they are saying Shadow Form is too powerful. Do you even realize its hard to be a perma at times? Go do a full quad DoA run, and tell me how easy it is to sliver/trench tank. Stop saying being a Perma is easy, and learn the runs. They are actually quite fun, and sometimes challenging. But sadly they won't because Shadow Form is getting changed.

All it takes is a few village idiots to complain about something and the people who are too weak to form their own decisions just fall in line behind them. That is what happened here.

I don't really believe that one skillbar should be able to conquer six. If my one dude can defeat numerous dudes that something is wrong.

It's not just in the skill, either. Soooo many enemy mobs not only have poor builds but poorly designed team builds with only like one or two different classes.

How is that Shadow Form's fault? It's not, its called poor Enemy Design.

Yes, which is why the current PvE version of Shadow Form is the same as the current PvP version of Shadow Form.

Try again, PvE Shadow Form, and PvP Shadow Form are different, as PvP you can't maintain it. And before you can say your invincible, he was talking in terms of PvE, as was I. You can run a blank skill bar in PvE and still win, is that overpowered too?

Unfortunately, the people complaining about this skill about that skill all the time gives the impression that the whole community is supporting a change.

Anet should have made a quick poll as to how many actually wanted SF nerfed. then they will probably realized that there where only a few compared to the whole GW community.

Too bad that the squeaky wheel gets the grease all the time. It's a shame really having SF nerfed, since most of my friends including me are here mostly trying to farm or do new things with what is left of GW. Now at this point like the above poster, We dont want to spend 3 hrs doing something like clearing UW or FOW.

oh, because monetary wealth IS what this game is about.... belly laugh, AHAHAHAHA!!! and your estimates are way off... UW might take 1.5 hours for a good bala team... FoW in 45 min, DoA maybe four hours or so.... jesus, the game isn't designed to have teams with practiacally invincible chars. it deducts from the value of other classes.

And I'm sure the majority would support ANet sending out 250 ectos to all active accounts, along with 5000 fame.

What's your point again?

Then why was shadow form introduced? Maybe Anet wanted it that way, and they did let it run its course. So in theory maybe Anet know what they were doing when they introduced Celerities and GoS.


His point is that Anet would of realized that it was only a fraction of the community that wasn't a fan of Shadow Form. Not an overwhelming majority that people make it seem like.

clearly, Anet didn't see the correllation between GoS DP and SF... it not a hard thing to miss.

If the rewards are so bad or take too much time for these areas why do people bother doing them?

Stop with the excuses where are people's suggestions/threads to improve the rewards for these areas? Exactly... but everyone of these people roll into a thread like this to defend shadow form till the death...

So game balance can be thrown out the window as long as people can get a reward that apparently isn't worth playing for but its justified when there's an easymode button to cut the time down to obtain it?

I don't understand this reply. I was simply asking why they're against farming in general, not the use of SF in farming.
There will always be areas where a single build can dominate a mixed group just by the nature of skill synergy. Since you can plan ahead for the mobs in a specific area, it's easy to design a skillbar to shut them down. There's no way to combat this other than to complete nuke most of the skills in the game or create random mobs. A static world simply leaves too much planning ahead, allowing specialized builds rather than a balanced that would be required in "unknown" situations.

The biggest issue I have with mobs are that even when they have numerous professions involved they rarely, if ever, synergize well together. Take Spellbreaker or Shadow Form for example, both are very easily negated by a single creature if built right. Yet these both are incredibly efficient throughout the world. 55 monks have had pop-up mobs to neutralize them, in some areas where they weren't that profitable, yet there have been no mobs designed to combat the current metas that are vastly more profitable.

So why are you farming some of the most expensive items in the game with your Perma? So you can feel as "leet" as those you don't envy?

Anyway. People always talk about rewards here, items there. Has any of you ever tried PLAYING the game just for the sake of it?

I get onyx gemstones from dungeon chests every time. So, who cares? I've had fun with my friends playing a dungeon, the monetary reward just being a plus. That means much to me.

Fun. The sole purpose of videogames: playing, having fun, you know... And no, I don't think rushing in greed with this monkey-playstyle is fun, but that's just me, what do I know. Play your game, I'll play mine. Thank God my game just won't collapse after a nerf.

Taking shortcuts is just a me-too attitude, so it takes less effort to be as nasty and unpleasant as those everyone keeps saying they don't envy. Yet they just want to look and feel like them, otherwise they won't be farming, will they? An equalizer, indeed. Shame it levels everyone to this pretty low level.

You like perma? Do it as long as it's still possible. Like it or not, that's not the way the game was conceived, so if the developers nerf it, I see nothing unexpected coming. For those who supported it up to now, it was great fun while it lasted, that should be enough.

Great post.

It's amazing how so many people are butthurt, and worshiping a post filled with insults because it agrees with them. I mean...really? Everyone is fapping over the age old "lol you are a loser that lives in your parent's basement" insult?

I enjoyed how you pointed out the irony in his post though, while keeping your post relatively clean. Good job.

How you morons can even bring yourselves to argue over whether INVINCIBILITY is detrimental to a video game is beyond me.

Because it makes it easier for everyone to get good stuff!

Don't you know anything?

And once again, I point out that it's not the skill itself that is so powerful but rather that the mobs aren't armed with the current skills able to counteract it. Hint: it is easily disabled, with a simple, lone core skill. Heck, my old Monk hero build can shut it down. That's hardly invincibility.

Both sides are exaggerating way too much. Shadow Form is neither the savior that proponents label it, nor is it the cancer the anti-SF crowd paints it as. It's a skill, that is powerful but made even more powerful due to Anet's inability to adjust mob tactics or skills to combat it in a way they've done in the past for meta builds.

This!

Every every monster in the game should have Well of the Profane. How is that unreasonable?

Firstly, that's not the skill I'm referencing. Secondly, thanks for proving my original point further.

This is poor logic. Why should every monster in the game be able to counter a skill? That's inane thinking. You'd be better off removing the skill from the game entirely -- and you'd most likely be for that based on your illogical argument.

You simply do as Anet has done before -- arm mobs or create pop-ups in the most profitable areas to combat the farming meta, which happens to now be Shadow Form. This would include, but not be limited to, dungeons, UW, FoW and other elite areas. It is a simple solution. Guess what? That same skill would combat the other farming metas just as well.

How a single skill draws such ire to drive people like yourself to frothing, irrational hatred is mind boggling.

Then please, what core skill does your hero monk use to counter it?