Shadow Form meets the end

The thing is, SF is the best way to do 90% of the high end content in the game, and little else comes close. By "the best" I obviously am not talking about what organized guilds can use to blaze through dungeons quickly, I'm talking about its ability to just get through a theoretically difficult dungeon with little to no danger of failure once you've mastered the build, which should take you all of an hour if you're slow. Its power is far out of line with the skill necessary to play it, and in order to meet or match it with pretty much any other build you need to be at the top of your game, and it'll probably still be more difficult than just using SF.

That is the problem; in a game so based around skill choice and builds, to have one build, usable by one class, be so much better than everything else is completely against what GW is supposed to be about. Yes, the existence of SF doesn't nuke every other class directly, but the fact remains that if you're trying to get through something without SF, you're probably gimping yourself. It's like saying that you have a choice whether or not to equip armor or a max damage weapon; yeah, you technically do, but it's not really a choice if one option is clearly better than the other.

Furthermore, the fact that permas have existed for so long kills any notion of PvE balance that the game had previously been held to. Why was Ursanway killed, just to be replaced by something even easier to play and harder to fail with? As long as SF exists in its present state, every other nerf that was aimed at some build in PvE just looks silly.

Why, after all this time, people still think that all the hate directed at SF is the result of jealousy or spite or something along those lines, I can't fathom. Sorry, it's just not true; people hate permas because they make a mockery of all of the lauded gameplay mechanics and intricate balancing systems that make GW such a great game.

Btw, this:
has got to be one of the dumbest comments I've ever heard anyone say in relation to the SF issue, plain and simple.

Without even touching the mountain of idiocy it takes to think that ANet would overpower a class specifically because the majority of sins were outright f****ing morons who played like they were wammos when Factions came out, how in the hell is buffing SF a reward to "long-time sins" who "put up with" all that crap? It's not like they prevented everyone from rolling a sin after GW:EN came out!

Not entirely true. While I doubt it was a "reward" for playing sins, the sin was kind of a broken class from the beginning - neither caster nor melee. Although I enjoyed playing them, no one really wanted them in a group until perma SF came along. That's just one more game design flaw SF covered.

So, yes, I do think perma SF being unbalanced was intentional, as an easy way of hiding how broken the sin class is, and the fact it has taken them so long to do anything about it is pretty good evidence of that.

A decent DB+MS sin that didn't kill himself was always welcome in a group. It just so happened that idiot sins were both abundant and suicidal. There really wasn't anything particularly wrong with the sin in PvE when Factions was released, except that, like I said, the vast majority of sins thought they were just a cooler looking warrior. Oh, and everyone made a sin as soon as Factions came out; 5-8 sin parties were pretty frequent just because people needed to get through the missions somehow. Those are the reasons why people didn't add your assassin all that often, not because the class itself was "broken". The notion that ANet consciously put in 3 skills in separate expansions that, combined, would allow sins to be nigh-unkillable tanks so they would finally be accepted into groups falls flat in the face of Occam's Razor: ANet simply didn't see the interaction between GoS and SF, combined with DH.

lol so you don't play the game but are certain that 1 skill is destroying it and you don't really care whatever the outcome? gg. have fun with your trolling.

take out sf, another team build will reign supreme in terms of speed and efficiency.

so your point of current meta defeating the purpose of the game is kinda a paradox no? take pvp as an example of "balanced" gameplay. you see little variation in general team builds at the high end, right? some skills are completely ignored. so are they "not playing the game correctly" even if they're steamrolling other guilds with a "proven" (wiki/meta) build?

Its called "perspective" , some ppl have it , some ( like you ) dont.

Yeah and "so many ppl quit the game if they nerf SF" . I can asure you 2 things :
-No , that wont happen.
-No , nothing will get near SF in terms of speed , efficiency and places to farm.

PS: Still smell the fear in this thread. Farmers QQ wont do nothing for the incoming skill rework.

I knew UW is going to be destroyed sooner and later just like the elite ghost town, Mr. DoA. This is starting to go through a very similar cycle to Ursan's nerf.

Like DoA, UW would still be possible to clear with an organized guild team, just not very puggable. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the ghost town that it is today.

Man you are going to be just as bad at the game, and broke after they nerf SF so I'm not sure why you take so much delight in it. I guess misery loves company.

Edit: I can see from your previous posts that you bought a crappy DoA green that I've left on the ground probably 50 times. You obviously have no idea how tough it would be without strong pve skills and a co-ordinated spike team.

Unless you have ANET server data, that statement is as credible as saying "I saw a pig fly". One thing is certain though, every area in the game is empty except for ToA and solo farming outposts...

With all the effort they spent nerfing skills they could have made at least one area more appealing. I actually do hate UWSC...why? Because its the only area where I can do stuff with actual people when guildies are not around. Adjust the areas so we can have some diversity please...

Screw it, they can nerf all they want....just gimme 7 heroes with PvE skills enabled so that I can actually do something fun when I log on at 10pm and find that not enough "leet" people are on. (And no, I don't think I want to vanquish or repeat all the "non-leet" missions for the 9th time with AI, 8 times is enough tyvm)

having read thru this post and my own...if SF does get nerfed im gonna move to Aion for something fresh to do...if not ill stay and enjoy guildwars (by the time GW2 is released i will have spent the same as i did when i bought GW on Aion P2P)....so as it stands bye bye guildwars lol

dont get me wrong GW is a good game but im not sticking in balanced groups for 2-3 hours when i know it can be done in 45 minutes +/- and with the end of GW1 approaching Anet should just leave people to do what they find enjoyable...if you like balanced...good go do it whoopie doo...if i dont, who cares let me enjoy it, broken/godmode/shitway whatever u wanna call it its fun and all that this wrinkly game has left for me.

Even though I agree with you...when people make these kinds of post they really need to explain it in more detail. Why is 2-3hr balanced group bad? Answer: the reward is ridiculously minimal, and one tiny mistake boot you out and leave you with almost nothing except 2-3hrs of wasted time.

Stuff like that.
Otherwise, you just get people repeating catch phrases like "evil farmer should leave" and "evil farmer won't leave", and the real problem doesn't get through to Anet at all.

yeah sry...that is the main thing...2-3 hours for 2 diamonds = pissed off ...oh and apparently 'satisfaction' lol

So, how many of us would actually be bitching about the crap in this game had GW had enough content for us to not have to resort to farming?

I think lots of people would Upier. Arguments about profession discrimination and 'lame buids' were going on even when prophecies was new. Anyone remember how hard it was to go to UW/FoW as a mesmer back in 2005?

So long as people know what they are facing build wise there will always be builds and professions that will be easier/faster to use than others. When SF goes, people will just find the next PvXwiki build that works, then when that build is nerfed they'll choose the next one.

The history of GW has just been about the majority hopping from fotm to fotm. The root of this is the GW skill system which although it IS an amazing strength, when it is predictable and static is also a great weakness.

As I said a while earlier, the computer always rolls 'scissors' so all you need to do is take along 'rock' every time and it's the win button. It does'nt matter if your rock is called Ursan, 600 smite or Shadowform it will always beat 'scissors'. If you want true challenge and being able to play to the strengths of the GW skill system you need to be able to face 'rock, 'paper' or 'scissors' at random or if it's in a mob all of them.

Instead of doing this, the solution Anet came up with was, for the player to be able to roll a new item.. Lets call it 'zap' in which 'zap' beats rock, paper and scissors. In creating 'zap' Anet destroyed the balance of PvE and therefore of every area of the game.

Nerfing Shadow Form only gets rid of one 'zap' there are plenty of other waiting in the wings. To rebalance PvE then 'zap' needs to be removed entirerly. But this is never going to happen. People have become too dependant on runnning around with the GW equivilent of an infinite ammo BFG9000 and it would take too much effort to fix.

The only thnig we can really do is either refuse to roll 'zap' or accept that the game has irrevocably changed from the one we played from 2005-2007.

What Anet needs to do for GW2 is to ensure the same mistakes are not repeated, and this 'computer always rolls scissors' aspect is never repeated.

mm I see what you mean Upier, but considering ive logged over 9k hours, that would have to be A LOT of freakin content lol

Why is it, any time a skill comes along that lets the ordinary, weekend player access elite areas, the cry come up from all the 10hr a day players to get rid of that skill? That skill that, by the way, has been abused by the same elitists for months upon months for speed clears, and ecto farming.

So anet changed UW to stop the speed clears, fine. But that's not enough for the elitist crowd. No, we must purge all the noobs from our lands! If you refuse to dedicate your lives to this game, we will nerf you out of it! Begone Ursan! Begone Shadow Form! Begone Discord! The Ectos and BDS's and VSF's belong to US!!! You haven't put enough time into this game to deserve such riches!

As a dedicated anet sheep, I'll probably keep playing GW. I will probably still buy GW2. But if I'm ever tempted to leave, it will be the elitist attitude that forces me out, and not the game. Flame all you want, I really don't care anymore. I've finally learned the whiners get their way, and the rest of us must cope.

And how is this situation different from any point in time in the lifetime of Guild Wars? There has ALWAYS been a meta, where some builds are always more effective than others. Juts because SF is the "big deal" right now doesn't mean that something else won't replace it if and when it is nerfed. Why is there so much hate @SF when you've got things like rediculously OP PvE skills, triple monk bonder heros, consets etc. The idea of GW as "rock paper scissors" in PvE was thrown out the window woth Heros and customizable skill bars. No longer could ANet balance an area around one player's wild card skillbar and the known quality of hench skills.

55 Monk, 600/Smite, OB tank (War/Ele/Derv), 330 Rit, Spirit Spammers, etc., etc. The list goes on and on. Sf is part of this thing called a meta, you may have heard of it. According to your logic, every single person in GW right now should be playing Sins, as it is the best option, yet this is far from reality. I wonder why?

Perma existed before Ursan was nerfed, yet many people chose Ursan over it. Why? Because any class could use and abuse it. When that was nerfed, people went for the next best thing, rolling Sins where they previously had not. If SF gets nerfed, everyone will roll something else and the cycle will continue. Getting bent out of shape over one skill is kind of retarded.

I lol'd. "Intricate balancing systems?" If what you claim is true, then the ONLY meta build would be Sins, and everything else would be in perfect harmonious balance. People hate permas because they either don't have one or are too lazy to start one. There's multiple character slots, and for people that play mostly PvE, that means multiple primary professions, enabling players to work with the FotM builds and within the meta. The fact that there are multiple options makes the case for SF nerfing even more dubious, and I have to question a person' arguments against SF entirely. It doesn't "ruin the economy," speedclears existed well before perma-SF, etc., etc. The only logical rationale to hate perma is out of jealousy or envy, not out of some chivalric notion of balance for all! LOL.

Perhaps you immune to subtle sarcasm, but I am somewhat serious. I don't see Glyph of Swiftness used in hardly any PvE or PvP builds, except Perma. Its been around long enough now that if it was an issue to ANet, they could have fixed it rather easily.

While I don't think that ANet was literally throwing a shower of presents on Sin players with SF, it does stand to reason that they wanted to give Sins at least ONE build that could get them into high end PvE groups. The truth of the matter is that many early Sin players WERE wammos and narutards and gave the class a bad rep, which in turn made the class about as attractive as the plague in high end PvE.

Whether you all like it or not, SF happened. While I make no claims of a mass exodus if SF is nerfed, there will be some poor feedback. Is it fair in a game with 10 base professions to allow one of them to basically be unused? Why even make content for it? And to be honest, you have to admit in situations such as when DoA first was released (prior to EOTN and Ursan) that pretty much only wars eles and monks got into parties, with experienced guild players sometimes subbing in a Dervish Obsidian tank.

Is it truly the skill that is unbalanced, or is it areas that are so unbalanced that only 1/3 of the game's professions can play in it? I would hope for GW2's sake that ANet gets a better grasp on balancing of gameplay, and especially ignore Guru idiots who think that one skill is somehow breaking a game that I can log into at any moment and play just fine. With or without SF...

In an effort to mend the bridges and introduce some positive feedback, there might be an easy way to balance SF. Instead of nerfing it to hell, make it necessary to party with people for support, hero or otherwise. Easiest way to do that is to make SF cause -1 or -2 energy degen, so over time (say 3 maybe 4 cycles) the Perma would be unable to maintain without some form of energy regen, like BiP, which would require either a Necro player or microing a Necro hero, just like the 600/Smite teams in concept. Whereas 600/Smite requires a second guy for damage, the Perma would require a second guy for energy regen. Similar concept, different execution. And its much more elegant a solution than all the whiny Wammo QQers saying to nerf SF to hell and good riddance Sin players hahalolz.

Keep perma in, make it party dependent, and you allow Sins to play in groups that aren't just hero/hench.

The problem is that as long as A.Net pumped out new content, one could just play the game. But now, we are just stuck with what we have and that is a game that is FILLED with grind. And given how the game shifted from being able to have every character into the need to just have one character because otherwise you'll have massive issues maxing out titles each class needs to be able to grind.
Balance in PvE currently isn't about each class finding a role.
Balance in PvE is currently about each class being able to farm.

And as long as this issue isn't looked at, we are going to have SF 2.0 (or is that Ursan 3.0?) in 6 months.

Another way to do it is to make its effect like a paragon shout. Have the duration increase for every party member "within earshot", allowing it to be easily maintainable when all 8 party members are around but unmaintainable when the party is too split or when everyone else starts to die. This make it pug friendly but cannot be used as a "solo machine", so to speak.

But it still won't correct the core problem which is the risk/reward imbalances.

Thats not elitist, thats called game play progression. When you buy a single player game, do they give you the super weapon on the first level, the best armor or the best car? No. you need to earn it by beating levels, earning money to buy the car etc etc.

In a single player game, using a cheat code does'nt hurt anyone. It allows you to get the best gun, car,armor etc very quickly.

In an MMO an imbalanced skill or abilty 'Rolling zap' is a bad thing.. Why?

Because it affects everyone else playing the game, it upsets the 'game play progression' designed into the game. It puts pressure on other players to 'roll zap', it puts pressure on the developers to make new content because all of sudden people are burning through content ten times faster than it was designed to be played at.

Ok lets take an example. Modern Warfare 2.
Would using a cheat code to zoom to online rank 70 be acceptable?

No. we would call it cheating, and expect EA to fix the exploit.

Now to GW.
is it acceptable for a player to be able to zoom from lvl 1 to having done everything in a weeks?

Was GW designed to be able to do that? I would argue no it was'nt.

The risk/reward thing is only an issue because players were allowed to roll 'zap' had they never been allowed to the issue would never have arisen as the only way to get the reward was to put the same risk in as everyone else.

Instead of fixing it, Anet has ignored it and by ingoring it given it the facade of being acceptable and by giving it tacit approval allowed the playerbase to become dependant on it.

I think and yes I know it may be judgemental, but a lot of people are applying single player game thinking (cheat modes to speed past content is ok) to an MMO. Which you cant do.

It's not the players fault, it's not the likes of the pro SF'res on this threat that should be accused of being a 'noob' the fault squarely lies at the feet of Anet who have by neglect totally trashed the PvE side of this game.

It's not about a look at us.. For me it's a concern about the health and longevity of a game I enjoy playing and one I still want to be able to enjoy until GW2.

This is the issue. These 2 pictures, of the Dungeon run my partner and I did together in Shards of Orr(HM). Although I've mentioned it in another post, well, seeing is believing.

This is what the purists would have you find a good group, or group of guildies, grind for a couple hours, waste a bunch of cons, dp removers etc etc, to earn.

Tell me if you can see anything wrong with these 2 Hard Mode reward pictures.

My Wifes Great Reward:


My own, equally spectacular Reward:


Now, as I said, study them well and see if you can find the kick in the teeth in there.

But the problem is that the game never HAD much of a gameplay progression to begin with. The gameplay progression is more like bipolar jump. You go through every single area before the end game, and the reward you get never truly varies at all.

Its pretty much always 1k Junk + 1k Mission reward (1st time in HM)...with newbie area having much less and that's it. Then you get to the end game area and all of a sudden the reward can jump to over 10k per hour....but with a catch. The area design is also bipolar: guilds which perfect the area get the proportionate reward, but the area is absolutely frustrating for pugs, especially with most of the reward being "backloaded" near the end.

Of course, the exception are the EoTN dungeon, which has crappy reward no matter if its runned, balanced pugged, guilded, etc. Those dungeon end chests is like grinding to play a lottery at the end.

In my mind the rewards given in an area is a seperate issue. The harder an area is, the greater the rewards should be. Maybe Anet should change it so that as soon as you use a cons set, you greatly reduce your chances of an ecto drop, if you don't your chances increase *runs away to hide*

As I said, SF is'nt the issue but the whole way PvE is set up. By now is much to late to do much about it, but i really hope lessons are learned from Anet for GW2. If I see mobs in GW2 that have the same patrol patten and skill set time after time I will know they did'nt learn and we'll be having the same arguments as soon as someone finds the 'zap' button for Gw2

Or you can mod!

It could be said, you're hurting your own gameplay experience, but thats up to the individual.

You're making a fallacious argument by terming SF as "rolling zap." My Sin has been around for 42 months, and I've used SF a lot, but in no way has it allowed me to steamroll the game. "Gameplay progression" is also a bit dodgy, since the content, mobs and quests NEVER change, the only thing that does is what your avatar looks like moment to moment, whether different base profession, armor, weapons etc. But that's all cosmetic, a thin icing on an inadequate cake. Without some randomization and dynamic gameplay, the game stops evolving the first time you beat it and get a lvl 20 character. After that, its "grind progression." GW has little replay value taken on its own merit, at least from a PvE perspective, its not like Quest for Glory where playing a different class made you receive different quests and a different path. And that is a big problem with MMO basic design.

Also, the idea of "zap" is not confined to SF sins, "zap" is whatever the most effective meta is at the time, and is ALWAYS present because people look to maximize gain and minimize effort. Next weeks "zap" could be Mezway or something, the problem is not inherent in the skills themselves but in human nature and a statically predictive gameplay experience. Much like a Choose Your Own Adventure book, once you've read the various quest arcs there's nothing left to do with it. GW is the same thing, with a grind game tacked on.

A more apt comparison would be the AWP camper in Counterstrike. Using what most considered a "noobcannon" for easy kills, the joke of "its a legitimate strategy" became famous. First person shooters IMO are vastly different beats than an MMO like GW. Many chose not to use the AWM, and there were strategies to counteract it, but it was not removed or nerfed, it was up to the players to counter it. There's a reason why SF is not used in PvP, because its easy for players to counteract it with a minimally decent team build. ANet plays the players' part for the monsters, and so far have demonstrated not even a basic familiarity with their own game's basic precepts.

As a casual player, my 42 month old Sin is one title away from People Know Me. I was able to finish all the campaigns in relative short order, after which whats left to do? Grind rep titles and such? Boring. No matter what class you play, because of Heros and PvE skills and consets, even poorly built Wammos and Mesmers can finish all three campaigns relatively quickly compared to how they were originally designed. This isn't WoW with a multi-month climb to the upper levels, its a game where ANY class can get to lvl 20 in a couple of days, WITHOUT Shadowform.

You'd be mistaken then.

You have to define what "it" is. It in this case is NOT Shadowform, that's just a symptom of the real problem. The real problem is the game's design being easily exploitable by a min-maxing playerbase, hence PvXWiki and the meta-game. There's no "oops we only dropped the ball recently" issue with Permasins, the issue is that ANet has made their game rediculously easy in some respects (Pain Inverter for bosses and consets for everywhere) and over the top difficult in other ways (DoA's environmental effects, PUGs still sucking, etc.). The only true way to fix it is to introduce mob randomization, which has been a concept in games like this since games were invented. I mean, hello, Diablo?

In a game where until relatively recently Sin players were virtually forced to H/H everything, its understandable to apply single player game mechanics. However, you are grossly mistaken in your assumption that SF is a cheat or exploit, its a legitimate gameplay mechanic that people are overly vocal about because THEIR preferred classes don't get the shiny toy. I'll wager nearly every SF hater is a Monk, Warrior or Ele player from back before Factions was released.

While I agree that the blame for any issues lies at ANet's feet, I would contend that SF isn't a problem, AT ALL! People can speedclear UW and FoW without Sins, it'll take a bit longer but the effect would be the same as if ANet had nerfed SF. Perhaps its just people are angry with themselves fo having no self-discipline? I mean, it is the height of arrogance to claim that someone's using of an arguably powerful skill is negatively impacting their gameplay experience. Its not like if a balanced group of players zone into UW, that all the mobs and ectos are gone, taken by the evil SF Sins. The game still chugs along, regardless of who and how it is played. So it makes no sense to claim that SF somehow ruins anyone's gameplay, that's just jealousy over their preferred class not being uber.

But it is, it so is. Without players, GW would not exist, the game can't exist in a vacuum. But at the same time, whenever your character exits a town or outpost, he/she might as well be on another planet, with either a few other people or some AI henchies. All the other SF sins out there have ZERO gameplay impact on you or those not playing in your party. People can make a conscious effort to not use SF, or they can use it at their whim. But complaining about SF is like moaning about a hammer that hits nails perfectly everytime, do you get rid of a tool because it works too well? You wouldn't use a chainsaw to do a welding job, you'd use a welder. The same idea applies to SF.

SF is a tool, how it is used is up to the player. But I just want to reiterate this very important point:

USAGE OF SF BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN YOURSELF HAS ZERO GAMEPLAY IMPACT ON YOU IF THEY ARE NOT IN YOUR INSTANCE!!!1

If you roll out with an 8 player Sinway, well that's your issue, not SF.

The kick is that you suck, and that you should have done it with a "pro" guild, then you can get those diamonds and onyx at a faster rate, am I rite? [/sarcasm]

Someone should do a detailed recording of UW balanced pugging and/or DoA balanced pugging too...

Kaleban put it more eloquently than I've ever seen it put. Look, I've finished every campaign, and the expansion, and the bonus mission pack more times than I care to remember. Yes, there are new players in this game, but most of us have been here for years. I do not have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, so I really don't want to play through the campaigns again. That leaves farming for rare items, and elite areas.

It would be a wonderful thing if I never had to visit PvX Wiki. It would be grand if any good build, and any balanced group, would be able to enter any area in GW and have success. But that is not the game! It may be what they were aiming for, but it isn't the reality. What works in one area, is completely useless in another. In one area I can actually play my favorite toon ( a warrior with Hundred Blades) and kill stuff, and be the hero! in another, I'm left to stand still, spam Signet of Stamina, and let things hit me, while everyone else has the fun of killing. Elsewhere still, I'm a drain on the group if I even bring my warrior!

I wish tactics and brains meant something when it came to entering the elite areas, but it doesn't. If you don't have these specific skills, for those specific areas, you will NEVER have success!

I admit it, I am a casual player. One so many elitists want to label noob, even though I have been here for four years! So a cookie-cutter build comes along that allows me to enter content I have not been able to enjoy, and that's a BAD thing! Can't have someone like me bringing down the "class" of the neighborhood.

As long as this game is so skills oriented, and not skill oriented, the ONLY way to play is with the proper build for the area. Please! Stop worrying so much about what others are doing and just play the game!

LMFAO this debate is still going on?

SF is broken, has been for well over a year, SF is as close to godmode as you will ever find in any game and espite all this the retards still try to argue their advocation for it's use.

Yes it is a great farming tool and that is its only use and it completely useless for anything else whatsoever.

They could have rectified this a long time ago by allowing SF to remain godmode but adding whilst under the effects of this enchatment you deal no damage, thus you have a "tank" and because of the poor AI in this game the tank would be able to stack and hug the mobs against a wall and allow the rest of the party to nuke the crap out of them without gathering any aggro themselves (yes this game has not enmity /hate system at all).

At least using that option ppl would still have had their beloved imbamode but would have no choice other than to party to clear areas.

Simple solution, seems a-net never thought of it and instead dodged the issue until sf solo clearing just about every area became a gameplay standard, then they decide to actually act.

LMAO dead game is dead, wake up and find a real MMO to play at least until GW2 comes around (btw gw2 vids look good but then any rendered trailer always looks good, the original gw vid looked awesome, GW looks nothing like it though lol)

You have serious problems reading pal , i made a PREDICTION of what would happen so your post is nonsense.

HAHAHHAHAHAHA you are SO DEAD WRONG ...... like saying 2+2=56. You are the one crying because of SF rework, i can smell your fear. I never needed SF for nothing even though i use it sometimes.

LoL you are throwing BS based on a trade for a green that i found funny , you are clueless pal , no offense. You cant make assumptions of what i did , how i did it and how many times based on a green trade lmao.
What the heck has now pve skills have to do with the SF rework ? you are so full of fear that you cant even think clearly right now hahaha.

PS: Im going to have some fun seeing posts like this in the post-update time.

Wrong. If you read back I have repeatedly said the issue is not Shadowform, but the way GW PvE is designed. Shadowform 'abuse' is only the latest manifestation of this design flaw.

And yes, how you use a skill or a build has a direct impact on others. You come back from your 7 min UW clear. The people with you go 'wow' that was great look at how fast we got our ectos. They then tell others who want to know how it was done and so it goes on.

Soon anyone who wants quick money(and who does'nt) will be running your build and trying to make it better and when they do, the people they are with go Wow this is much better than our old way and so it goes on.

How do I know this, because i've developed builds and tactics that then went on to be popular and i've seen it happen.

The only way your statement is true is if you take no other players with you(which you cant do in UW/FoW), and tell no one of your build. Which may hold true for a while, but it seldom lasts for long.

So no, the skills and tactics you use in an instance DOES affect everyone else around you. The only time it does not is when you are in a single player game.

So it IS all about others finally being able to cash in on what you've been exploiting for months.

Well I don't really care if SF would get nerfed or not...
Can you guys only play sin if you have shadow form? Assassin's Promise, Moebius Strike, Palm Strike, ... are all great assassin skills. Would you not play your sin (or even gw) because SF would get nerfed? think about that...

You're missing the point. Spreading around a build can affect another's playstyle, yes.

The large majority of arguments against SF by many is that it somehow is actively devaluing either their direct playing experience while not partied with someone using SF, or is wrecking the economy.

The economy is a joke, its a game, and is artificial and arbitrary.

There is a difference between playing a build with others, and learning of said build. Obviously, if you're in an 8-man group, your skills will affect everyone else in that instance, duh. However, you have no direct effect on any other player during that instance, its technically impossible to affect someone in another instance, they don't come across a bunch of dead Smites killed by you in another instance.

So no, the skills you use in an instance affects no one else BUT those people in the instance with you. As this game is basically about builds, its only natural that the most effective builds will become the standard, or "meta." You and I seem to agree that the problem is not SF but the gameplay design, but I take it a step further and claim that even if the design were to change, the ULTIMATE issue resides in the desire of the playerbase to maximize profit and minimize risk.

I really don't care if SF gets nerfed to be honest, although I am against "nerfing it to hell with fire" on the grounds that its not the skill's fault. At the moment I'm having fun playing my Rit and Derv, apparently, Spirit Spamming is the new "en vogue" build, I'm just glad I've had my Rit almost as long as my Sin. Which just illustrates the precept of the pendulum of game balance, and where one is weakened, another is strengthened, which makes those who hate on a specific skill idiots because they fail to grasp this basic tenet of game design.

It really feels to me like a witch hunt, with the haters just being mad because the Sin got some love, which was not the usual preferential treatment given to War/Ele/Mo, the Three Stooges of GW.

err no. it was simply pointing out that the assumption of what we do in an instance does not affect anyone else was incorrect.

If anything i've done the opposite to what you accuse me of. I freely showed anyone how things worked, what a build was. I would think the tens of millions of golds worth of items me and my alliance has given away in various events and contests over the last 4 years would be enough to show that selfish greed is not part of the way I play the game.

If people want to fill their storage with ecto, thats fine. Good for them.

Kaleban.

I do agree with much of what you say. It's not SF that needs to be nerfed, because like the head of a hydra another thing will just grow back. Shadowform Abuse is just an extreme example, but with a modicum of skill it can be used to render anyone who plays it invulernable.

My main 'beef' with it is'nt economic, but that it in it's current form and the ones that come after it makes a complete mockery of professions and the versitility and nuances of gameplay that GW allows.

Sometimes it feels like what Anet allowed to happen was for every resturant in the world to be replaced by McDonalds.

Should people be allowed to run what they like sure. Why not. But when that 'what they like' comes at price of excluding profession and at the expense any other way of playing then it needs to be changed and the root cause fixed. I.e knowing what you will be facing.

As I said it's not the playerbase who is at fault, it's entirely down to Anet for refusing to fix the issue, and i'm not just talking about the abuse of a single skill here either.

It's entirely natural for people to want to maximise reward and minimise effort. If we did'nt do that we'd never have gotten out from the caves, but there are measures in place we can do such that in GW such supremacy of builds and profession does'nt happen as often or are eliminated as much as possible.

This Anet did not do.

For the longest time, "what they like" consisted only of War/Ele/Mo. Mesmers got the shaft, and Rangers were occasionally welcomed as Bunny Thumpers.

Factions is released, Sins are championed 99% by narutarded wammos, kills the viability of the class beyond H/H. Rits are a freakish monk offshoot.

Nightfall comes out, Dervs are a joke, except as OB tanks or Orders spammers (who even uses Mysticism Forms, like ever?), and ZOMG MUST BE IMBAGON... I mean Paragons come out too.

I could do more timeline crap, but the basic point is that any class but War/Ele/Mo has been relegated to very tiny niches, at least on the PvE side of things, that the vast majority of gameplay isn't suited for.

Along comes Permasin, and wow, now another class with a very specific build (cough*Imbagon*) is welcomed, nay, DEMANDED in high end PvE.

It is the apex of hypocrisy to claim the bolded part of your statement as a rationale for nerfing SF. That sort of discrimination has worked against the Sin for almost the entire time its been out, and only since EotN came out with Glyph of Swiftness and consets has the Sin gained ANY actual PvE credit.

Its ironic that Spellbreaker doesn't get any hate, since a Monk could run that with GoS and Blessed Aura, keeping it up for less energy while having access to e-management skills like Essence Bond.

Like I said, this hypocrisy can only rationally be explained by hatred and jealousy on the part of players who resent the Sin having a little time in the limelight. Since it cannot be said logically that a person running SF affects anyone else out of the same instance directly, there's no reason AT ALL to hate on it. Envy is an ugly thing...

Thou shalt not covet Shadowform, since you've got Spellbreaker-Obsidian Flesh-Vow of Silence-Gladiator's Defence-Escape-"Save Yourselves" etc., etc.

Agreed,

and Flashing Blades is probably my favorite sin skill.

You are terrible at making rebuttles. War's cant even be factored into this equation anymore, we were the class that felt the power-creep the worst out of any class. As for Obby Flesh and Glad's defence; are you f****** high? They are nowhere near SF and spellbreaker, tell me, what the hell can you do when you move %75 slower or when the whole Tactics line is f*****. You have no knowledge of the warrior class at all so don't offer any.

As for being jelaous? Yes, I'm sure everybody is jealous that one class gets a single invinci mode skill, agian, your rebuttle has no weight.

Please read what I said, not take a single paragraph and use it out of context..

No where in this did I say that nerfing Shadow form abuse(note the term abuse) would fix the problem you described. It's only the most recent and longest lasting example of it.

Main main is a mesmer, there is no need to preach to me about class discrimination as that has been going on since 2005. In fact I devoted hours taking teams of all mesmers to elite areas and only using mesmer skills(with no pve skills etc) to prove the viability of that class. So I know what it's like not to be wanted in teams..

I want them to fix the root of the issue(see above) not just nerf a single skill.

On this point I can wholheartedly agree with you, but it is much too late to fix GW. We can only hope that the combat system is completely revamped in GW2. As I've said before, I would much rather have skill, and not skills, be rewarded.

I have a feeling you and I aren't actually arguing lol. The problem is, I'm a realist.

To fix the root cause of issues that cause things like Shadowform hate, you have to take a two-pronged approach:

1 - Re-make the entire game of GW, completely re-design it so that the game does not center on creating builds to conquer and "vanquish" which inevitably leads to meta builds and min-maxing; and

2 - Alter human behavior at the genetic level so that it is no longer in our nature to seek maximum benefit for minimal effort.

Seeing as how #1 is a monumental task and would require a complete re-boot (or sequel in spirit only, perhaps GW2?) and #2 is as far as I know, absolutely impossible, then the chain of causality that results in events like Shadowform use becoming ascendant will never be broken.

Its inevitable when you really stop and think about it. My only beef is that there is so much vocal hate for a skill that allowed a niche profession to supplant the "primary" professions that ruled over GW like a Triumvirate Council of Evil. That's the real issue in my opinion, that those used to being picked first were now put in the position the Sins were relegated to since their inception. Its base jealousy and infantile whining, especially considering that its been such a short time, relative to the length of time enjoyed by the main three classes.

Silly. But the QQers now will probably be appeased and see nothing wrong when their pet speedclear and farming builds regain their primacy, and shed not a tear for all those players who enjoyed playing Sins for more than just Shadowform as they're kicked back to permanent Hero/Hench status.

Just thinking about the level of hypocrisy and childish selfishness exhibited by these SF haters gets my blood boiling.

It is so broken that a single core skill can combat it? Yeah, I see who the "retard" here is. Don't get lost on your way back under the bridge. I could design a prophecy only area that completely shuts down SF with little to no added penalty to balanced builds.. Why can't Anet?

Get back to Aion u fanboi and lets us argue alone lol...btw onyx keep my legionspot warm if SF is nerfed ill be joining u.

and once SF is nerfed where does this leave a sin in any of the missions...until perma was found they were in the useless pile (with Rits but now they had a huge buff which seems fine to these balanced lot, they have become popular again) and getting in a group was virtually impossible....unless u play PvP which is full of ...well everyone knows what lives in PvP.

so yeah nerf sF and banish sins from most runs and give me that last push to go to Aion please Anet.

sins are useless in pve? wtf are you smoking. they are possibly the most overpowered pve profession next to the imbagon. if you honestly think they are bad in pve, then kindly take your idiocy with you to aion. you'll be right at home there.