Shadow Form meets the end

It's used to recharge Meteor Shower.

All assassin chains are outclasses by DB+MS spam...so AP is pretty useless.

Hmm, I'll have to give you the win in this discussion, though I still think the sin needs to find its own niche to fill, they still share te counters everyone face, but it still seems they are outclassed by warriors, we'll have to wait and see what Anet does. But AP builds for sin (assuming we are still talking about PvE) are only used in Discord, spikes revolving around it are fairly limited and not as effective.

He said sins using gimmick builds. I wonder what he's thinking about.
An Elem/A is not a sin.


EDIT : quoting Barage's message above : Oh! that gimmick. That actually means the skill is just not used outside of pure spike builds, which are more fun or disruptive than damaging. If you use them at all.

Concerning the niche, I still think that sin could be buffed to get some melee disruptive builds in Shadow Arts. But they'd need to add a way to spread condition from Beguiling, or give SA a really good survival skill (more like Way of Perfection than SF).
Actually it'd probably need a major overhoal.

Talking about that, it's way too late for me. Good Night!

Its hard to survive long enough to get SY! up without any sort of help...but if you do use stuff like prot and weakness you also don't need SY!...its a catch 22. It highlights the problem in areas where the damage is so high that you NEED advanced proting or tanking before engagement....it doesn't encourage any sort of skillful play at all. Also DoA life steal makes SY! useless....

I was complaining that the reward is too low for "balanced" (using the definition that balanced = varied build without resorting to OP gimmicks). I don't think that discussion is related to this one. But if SY! becomes the next meta....do you seriously think that people won't whine for it to be nerfed just like SF?

That's the thing though, I've been running SY! since it came out...but I fully admit that it is ridiculously overpowered, and I really wouldn't be surprised if it were nerfed tomorrow. Hell, it should be.

That's the difference between me and the whining SF users. The SF users make up some bullshit like doing missions should give more gold, and that the entire game should be changed to compensate for SF, so that SF doesn't need nerfed. That's just f*cking stupid.

Why is this going on ? now ppl just went offtopic talking about SY! or other skills to be overpowered too ?. Shame PvE sin needs bloody lots of buffs in shadow arts and deadly arts ..... i hope they do something with it too in next update.

The topic of the thread is QQ.

Heaven forbid the discussion deviates from whining.

The mission need more reward whether or not SF is nerfed. Unless you advocate nerfing Z quests/all solo farm? Because I get more out of doing Z quest with my 10 characters or solo farming than I do from doing UW "balanced" with pugs. Then there are the reward imbalanced within the same type of areas:

Easy mission get the same as hard dungeon.

Hard dungeons get far less than FoW NM and UW NM even though the difficulty is nearly the same.

Vizunah square get the same as Realm of Torment missions (in fact Vizunah Squares gives MORE thanks to high number of enemies and fast clear with any MM). WTF?

These are stuff that should be fixed regardless of what happens to SF.

I think the best solution right now is to just give everyone 7 heroes with PvE skills enabled. The only reason I like SF is that it prevents me from being completely locked out of UW without a guild. My guild is fine, but not active or flexible enough to accommodate my crazy real life schedule.

If you check the nerf FS poster's arguments it really isn't off topic since the argument is really all about making sure the average player has no way to enter their elite areas.

Check out the posts. Every one of them says it's not about their e-peen getting stepped on, but every one of them has posted at least once something along the lines of "and my uber rare - insert item here - will become worthless."

Worthless, really? If it's no longer worth 275 ecto, it somehow can't be used as a weapon, armor, whatever anymore?

This really has become pointless though. It truely does boil down to inclusion/exclusion, but regardless af whether it helps or hurts the majority Anet will do whatever they want. And you won't change my mind, and I won't change yours.

But I hope this thread stays intact, so when they finally come after one of your builds, and you've forgotten all about this one, I can just look back here and have a good laugh.

To everyone I've argued with: I really did enjoy it, and I take nothing personal from this as I hope you do as well.

Because ANet STILL hasn't fixed the bloody mess. It will keep on going until they do.

If that is not sarcasm , you went totally nuts pal .

Seriously a lot of ppl here lacks so bloody lots of perspective that cant see SF outside the use they give to it.

I dont think so and even more important , a lot more of ppl dont .

You are telling me to check out the posts ? i read 95% of this thread , do the same please , onle SOME of them ( almost none ) is QQ about its e-peen in favor or against SF.


Thats what im talking about , lots of ppl here noticed that and stop going offtopic or going offtopic because someone said they went offtopic and bla bla bla so on. Now only time will tell ... less than 1 month left ? lets see what happens.

Its HALF sarcasm...

Of course I would prefer it if Anet do a big overhaul along with nerfing SF...

Rework areas to be pug friendly OR adjust reward to be proportionate to the effort spent by pugs. Get rid of crazy monsters that just promotes Tank + Monk + Damage.

Buff non-SF sins, dervs, paragons, mesmers, non-support eles, rits (just SoS is not enough), rangers. And buff them in such a way where they don't need to rely on one or two PvE skills to be effective, and would give something unique to the class.

But they're probably going to go with the easy way out and "pull a DoA" on UW....so I might as well ask for 7 heroes in advance. I cannot just rely on a guild/friend group to do everything I want to do...

You do realize the irony of this statement right? Would you advocate nerfing Moebius Strike as well, because according to your logic process in regard to SF, anything that promotes the use of one build over all others is bad, overpowered, too n00bish etc.

And Tenebrae, you're wrong. Many people in this thread alone have stated their objections to SF as it relates to the economy, high end items, Obsidian armor et al.

Few if any have mentioned the problems of Sins dominating the areas only as it relates to game balance, and those few who have done so solely also refuse to argue the point that IF SF is nerfed to the point where it is no longer the Meta, that Sins will once again be relegated to a non-role in groups.

Of course, since they're all for exclusion and hate Sins because of their one good build, their arguments become null and void because they can't approach the argument without some form of bias.

In regard to those who have accused me of being biased or a SF lover, I rarely if ever use SF, mainly to run guildies or my brother who constantly restarts characters lol. I've never actually used it an 8 Sin team (nor have I even seen people doing so), nor done speed clears. But, as my Sin is my main at the moment, I would LIKE the option to be able to play in groups, yes even PUGs, and if that means being a Permaform tank, then so be it.

The crux of the argument boils down to anti-SF elitists arguing for the preservation of their "elite" areas and loot from the casual players, of which SF Permas can greatly help. It acts as an "equalizer" for all those who cannot spend the time to be in a guild faction farming ten hours a day just to get the chance at a speedclear.

And no, it is NOT right to exclude anyone from Elite areas, period. Casual players paid just as much as "elite" players, and have just as much right to be there as anyone else. Those that argue otherwise are just immature and selfish.

While it is a noble intention, it's just a poor way to do it. It's a lot like the way Ursan "helped" the game: balancing the game by giving everyone the same skillbar, and allowing the inexperienced to see content they normally wouldn't by having that skillbar relatively straight-forward and powerful. SF isn't much different.

If ANet doesn't plan on providing easier modes of access or giving more of a look to the game and they still nerf SF, I don't see anything changing. But still: If your patient tells you that their foot hurts, you don't chop it off. The "better than nothing" approach is indeed a crumby and upsetting one.

what mess??...its not exactly making PC's explode.

An MS sin can't solo half the game and SC elite areas in half an hour.

As of now, rangers, dervishes, and mesmers are excluded. A nerf of SF (resulting in a nerf of SCs) would most likely allow them to see more play. An SF nerf would diminish the exclusion, not promote it.

And, an SF nerf would probably come bundled with a buff to other sin skills. If not, sins will still be just as useful as the aforementioned professions.

No, it acts as an "equalizer" for those who are inexperienced or just plain bad at the game.

Inexperienced players do not belong in high-end areas. It's not elitist, it's not immature, and it's not selfish. It's common sense.

@ Bold
What happened to that "skill > time" idea? You know, that principle GW was founded on?

"i paed 4 this gaem so i shudnt half 2 lern bout it or try 2 get bettr @ playin it"

I quit reading your post here.

I don't give a flying f*ck about "what you get". I don't care if you get 30 million ectos for each Devourer in the desert that you kill. SF is a broken game mechanic that far outclasses any other skill/build in the game.

Based on what logic? If these classes were excluded before Perma (and they were, DoA groups were nothing but War/Ele/Mo for example) how is nerfing Perma going to bring them into the fold? All an SF nerf does is restore the status quo of the "Big 3" while all the other classes remain marginalized.

The fact of the matter is, Perma represents a threat to War/Ele/Mo dominance in groups, you'd hear the same arguments against Rangers, Dervs and Mesmers if all of a sudden they got a skill buff that allowed them to compete favorably against the Big 3.

That's a bold assumption to be making, given ANet's track record of botching skill balance, not to mention the introduction of OP PvE skills and consets.

Even if this were true, why is that bad? Are the only ones who "deserve" to play the game people that could qualify for pro-gaming circuits? Or would you like to be put in charge of determining what the cutoff is for "bad" and "good?" Quite a fascist attitude on this thread methinks.

Common sense? How so? Thats the same kind of logic that excludes people from getting jobs that require experience, if they can't get a job to get experience, they never get the experience to get a job. Its circular logic, and extremely biased against those who may not have fiber optic connections and twitch gaming skills.

Anyone, I repeat, ANYONE who paid for the game deserves to be able to explore all of its content, period. And even moreso, the game's internal balance shouldn't be so far out of whack that only 30% of the classes will ever be able to participate in said high end content. That's not the player's fault, that's bad design. ANet should have designed areas (or revamp them entirely) so that any class can bring something to the table, such that a team composed of 8 different professions would stand just as much chance as an 8 Sin team speedclear. That's the whole point of "balance" such that the positives and negatives of one choice are equalized with any other, such that the decision becomes one of "flavor." A Mesmer should bring just as much utility to a PUG as a Warrior, which is something ANet has had wrong since day 1 of Prophecies.

LOL please. The principle that GW was rumored to be founded on was blown out of the water with the massive amount of grind actually in the game, you know, all the content after lvl 20 and you beat the three campaigns. You know, things like Drunkard title, Hall of Monuments, Reputation titles, having to grind SUnspear/Lightbringer points to advance at certain stages of Nightfall if you didn't maximize rep gain at every point, etc., etc.

Or how about Zaishen title/coins? Yeah, that's something that can be achieved through normal gameplay, right? Not having to repeat the same missions, dungeons, kill the same bosses OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

I guess that takes skill... sort of. The skill of massive time wasting and repetitive stress injuries to your mouse hand.

There's a difference between "being better than other skill chains", and "being able to solo 90% of the game without taking damage."

Thanks for playing though.

the wiki fans are using cons though.. it's pulling money out the game- items inflate in value when there's too much cash floating around and nothing to spend it on.. I'm glad we have the power traders to hoard it all and keep prices on regular items within reach of the average player- they help keep the economy from getting out of hand

the true rares in the game will always be out of reach.. like earlier in the thread some guy was like.. me and my girl spent 2 hours in a dungeon and got two diamonds XD there's your balance.. you think average peeps are going to re-run 2+hours for that?

all I'm saying is.. look at the player base as a whole- the speed clears are a way for these guys to get into farming and who knows.. maybe a few will branch off the wiki and start making farms of their own without cons.. imo cons are the real issue- you nerf the cons and that limits things.. heck you can even do 105 prot bond with a candy corn and 20% +1 protection offhand if you wanted.. cons make these things possible

I mean you could go to the store and come back with that build in most areas.. your monk would still be tanking the lot! XD is that op? you guys who are against sf based on what you see and not actually farming really should try running without cons sometime and at least try the builds in hm dungeons.. I think after you ended up on your ass a couple of times- you'll come to realize these areas need a good tank to complete in a decent amount of time

For people that are bad at the game, yes...it usually requires a lot more than a good "tank" (lol, that hurt saying)

hehe I'm thinkin yelling- anything that gets it done quickly is going to be attacked..

course to the guy looking at the end chest pics on guru.. roid rage- it must be sooo easy.. got to be nerfed.. all can say is it's not 123

tried to read this 3 times

wtf are you trying to say?

You can make a signature , an 640x480 avatar , with big letters and ppl wont see it ..... some ppl just dont want to see it and will defend SF with some funny sentences like "hey , elite areas rewards are shit , thats the reason why SF should stay ! so anyone with -3 skill can farm them !".
Gotta love these ppl , they still give us a funny momment.

PS: Incoming Skill updateEeeEE .... you cant do nothing about iiiIiiiIIIt .

If doesn't just represent a threat to the big 3; it demonstrates a threat to the other 9 classes in the game.

I can appreciate your concern for those other classes (heck, I'm with you on the argument that they need buffs), but what you fail to realize is that the status quo makes it even worse for them. At least with SF nerfed there will be SOME reason to use those other classes, even if it comes down to a couple of gimmick builds they have. As of right now, even those gimmick builds are meaningless. Who needs an imbagon when nothing can kill you to begin with?

If mesmers and co were suddenly able to compete against the big 3 (without marginalizing them like they currently do to them), I'd defend them right beside you. I want every class to be able to contribute. But that isn't possible with SF around. Only one class is currently worth playing. THAT is the problem with the skill.

Every person who pays for the game deserves to experience all it's content? Maybe, depending on what you mean by that. If you mean to say "everyone who bought the game who works to improve themselves until they're good enough to beat it all" then yes, certainly, they deserve to experience all the game has to offer. If, however, you're saying that people deserve to be able to beat everything without putting forth effort just because they bought the game, then I'd have to disagree. If games followed that philosophy then no one would play them, because they'd all be too easy.

alot of the roid rage is probably peeps who look at pics on guru.. probably have very limited experience in the dungeon without cons.. cons make things even for "balanced" groups a cakewalk in alot of cases

when you have guys who take it to the next level.. like the uw speed clears- please for the love of god.. do uw in hardmode first without cons- it will open your eyes a bit as to what that dungeon is about.. one screw loose and it's back to the hotel

if guys want to spend 2 hours in there just because that's just being stupid.. the speed clears are pretty much the only way to get to the end chest without devoting ridiculous amounts of time XD only the hardcore would ever do that more than once without a something like sf- then all those mini's the scythe.. ect.. all will be out of the average persons reach in game

also with cons, sf is able to work for pugs.. the other builds require teamwork and h/h, well forget that for the average player.. way too complicated fry their little brain XD

Ah I get it, you are trying to say you have more experience than me.

lolu...I've done UW HM with f*cking me and 6 heroes. Yes, it is so hard. It's absolutely amazing that 4 years into the game, and people are STILL TERRIBLE at the game. I'm guessing that in addition to your terrible crit barrager, you also have a mending warrior? Or is that what you try to "tank" with?

yelling at least tries to come up with solutions.. your the dips that I'm talking about

I just want to state this, Ursan should be brought back, it was easily the most fun I've had in the game, I mean really, running 5 Ursans, and imba, and two healers and just rushing through areas. It was just fun, there was no stupidity like excluding entire classes.

just sayin.. the things you guys were talking about.. when mobs can snuff melee enchants in a heartbeat- I've been around in the dungeons and know what works and what doesn't.. the average guy needs the gimmicks- without them they will leave the game

what happens then?

I have to disagree. Prior to Perma-SF, the status for classes other than War/Ele/Mo were the same as they are now. SF neither improved nor hindered the party makeup for other classes. A party is just as likely to take a Mesmer or Ranger or Dervish now as it was then. SF represents a threat to the monopoly on groups that the Big 3 had/have.

Think on this, did you have threads prior to the SF buff calling for nerfs to Wars Eles and Monks who dominated DoA? I remember possibly one or two, but with none of the vehemence in this thread, and certainly not people calling for the class to be removed entirely from the game. Its unequal and fascist.

No, I don't mean all players should get an "I WIN" button as some childishly claim SF to be. Perhaps if they ran a Permasin through some areas minus consets, they'd see how tough it can be, instead of just parroting what a few vocal and linguistically challenged trolls trumpet.

What I mean to say is that any player who buys the game, and rolls any one of the ten classes, should have just as much chance to get into a group, anywhere in the game, as any other player with any other class. That is balance. I'm not saying I want them to win, in fact, most likely many would fail miserably in the attempt at FoW and UW, I know I did my first couple of tries. BUT, there shouldn't be a penalty of not being able to even get into a group if you don't conform to the Big 3 stereotypical build.

Every player should have the chance/opportunity to see every part of the game, even if they are unable to conquer it. Who knows how many people have never even been to the FoW for lack of bringing a standard class/build, much less crafting a piece of Obsidian armor after doing the Forgemaster quests.

I have a feeling the percentage of Permasins who have got the FoW/UW/Deep/etc. trophies in their HoM is quite low compared to the total population of Sin players...

No, the average guy needs to learn how to put a decent party together, or gtfo of HM.

HM was never intended to be an "everyone does it" thing. HM was intended to give the better players something to do that would be a little bit more challenging.

Regards the whole acquiring "phat lewtz"...this game isn't built around loot. A good chunk of my characters are carrying collector weapons, with 1k armor dyed orange, and the cheapest useful insignias. Hell, most of my heroes don't even have insignias, and none of them have superior health runes. Yet, I've still managed to accomplish everything I've wanted with all of my characters, finishing the game, doing some HM missions and vanquishes, doing UW/FoW in NM and HM.

Nobody needs phat lewt...it has little to no impact on your ability to do things that you desire. You don't need to farm UW to get mass amounts of ectos and gold. You don't need to do HM to get items. You do it because it's fun. If it is too difficult for you...don't do it, or get better at the game and try again.

With SF around, PUGs will do nothing but SCs.
SC nerf + dungeons made less time consuming = more balanced groups being formed = more classes seeing play

They've had 3 months for this upcoming balance and they've gotten additional insight from the test krewe, so I'm semi-confident that the next update will be better than the last few.

People who think things through and try to get better/expand their knowledge of the game deserve to play in high end areas. People who got the game 2 weeks ago should be getting familiar with the game, learning, and getting better, not copying wiki builds and SCing end-game content that was meant for experienced players.

Not at all. All experience needed is within easy reach (missions, quests, etc).

Okay, but they should actually be good at the game first. Skipping all low-end content, copying a template off wiki, and beating all high-end content without gathering any knowledge/skill is not how any game ws meant to be played.

Exactly. With SF around (and with elite areas in their current state), only a few classes can participate in high end content. If it was nerfed (and elite areas were fixed), all classes could participate.

Most grind in this game is optional. And, even if that principle was "blown out of the water," that doesn't mean we should forget about it, it means we should try to fix it.

Those are optional. And, it's not grind to the people who enjoy doing that kind of stuff or are going to do the missions anyway.

Damn, I was under the impression that SF made you immune to 90% of the skills in this game, and any attacks. Fooled again.

Just because Permasins can't do it without consets does not balance the fact that Shadow Form is overpowered. It just means that it's trying to do an area that's supposed to be done with 8 people instead of 1.

Wait, what? How is a nerf of the "speedclear" build of SF going to make dungeons less time consuming? Unless you're also assuming a massive revamp of dungeon difficulty, mob skillsets, and further player skill balancing? Balanced groups /= faster run times, what makes for the fastest run is the most optimized build, so if SF is nerfed something else will replace, more than likely NOT groups composed of one of each class.

Doubtful. They've had YEARS to balance classes like the Mesmer and Sin, and still no joy.

You're assuming that ANet intended places like UW only for the most experienced players. Big assumption to make. I ASSUME that the most experienced players play GvG and other high end PvP, while PvE is meant for those unable to cope with the skill required for PvP, or who wish to abstain from it entirely. Different assumptions make for different conclusions, of course, the only way to get confirmation are dev posts or "official word" from ANet, but no sane developer would ever pigeonhole itself by saying its game was "mean to be played a certain way."

Please tell me how playing Raisu Palace or Elona's Reach prepares one for a balanced team spending 2+ hours in the UW or FoW doing a full clear? Or that groups are dominated by the PvE meta, such that unless one is running a specific build, they can't get a group, even if its a build they used to wipe the mat with Prophecies?

Again, you're assuming that all people in high end areas, playing SF Sins or other Meta builds are copy/pasters from the Wiki. And why is that even bad? PvE is certainly dominated by the Meta builds, so emulating them is a sure means of success. And many, MANY games that I have played assumed that once a player had finished the main content, that they would replay the game with a different character, while wishing to skip content they find unenjoyable. I mean, I have a tough time taking a character and slogging through prophecies when I can do it in a couple hours in Factions, and then if I feel like it blow through Prophecies. There's only so many times you can be surprised by what happens to Rurik lol.

Also, who are you, or ANYONE to dictate to someone else how a game was "meant to be played?" If I want to skip through some missions because I'm on my 6th character, that's my damn choice!

How would you fix elite areas such that all classes could participate? Are you honestly going to try and tell me that ANet has been trying to make UW and DoA into areas that teams will find it valuable to cart along a Beastmaster Ranger, or Illusionary Weapon Mesmer? Riiiiight... You presume much. A War/Ele/Mo team can still do the Elite areas just fine, SF allows Sin in, now all ANet needs to do is to make the other 6 classes have Elite based builds that allow them to compete.

Because after this many years with a game that doesn't generate WoW-esque revenue, ANet certainly isn't going to go back over all the "Elite" content and totally revamp it! Not only is that a fiscal nightmare, it would be tantamount to the devs admitting they can't design a balanced game to save their lives, which would also be professional suicide.

Again, revamping the entire game is not an option, that's HOPEFULLY what GW2 will provide. What ANet should be doing is making GW enjoyable and accessible to the largest audience, so that GW2 is massively successful. What they should NOT be doing is catering to the whims of a vocal minority that wants "their elite" areas cordoned off from the rif-raff.

If its optional, and has no gameplay effect, then what is the harm in allowing the plebes with their Permas a shot at it? The only thing SF does is devalue the e-peen value of things like FoW armor and high end skins, which have zero advantages. Its in ANet's best interest to cater to the masses so they can continue making games and pay salaries and dividends, its not in their best interests to marginalize the player base and tell people that "this area is off limits because we can't figure out how to make Mesmers and Assassins work here."

That's just plain stupid.

Fail argument fails.

Go solo Catacombs of Kathandrax with just your Permasin, and let me know how that works out for you.

Couldn't do it? Oh poor baby, I guess you DO need a full group of people to go, with the Sin acting as a runner/tank, just as many former Wammos and OB Flesh Eles did!

You totally zinged him.

You named a place where the permasin only acts as a completely invincible tank rather than acting as a completely invincible tank that also kills everything.

Sick burn dude, sick burn.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:A/E_Kathandrax_Solo

That's a permasin with a team.