Shadow Form meets the end

LOL I'll bet a frozen ecto that we don't see the skill change until after wintersday. (based on the fact the test krew did not get the chance to try things out until two weeks ago, skill changes usually come on the 2nd thursday, and putting them out this week will put them too close to the wintersday activities and make the ability to judge their effects too confusing.)

I'll bet one more frozen ecto that the actual change will only be Glyph of Swiftness = "your next 1...3 elementalist spells recharge 25% faster, and projectiles from those spells move 200% faster. (based on the fact that the devs seem to like perma sf and have only reluctantly and lately even hinted at doing anything about it and that one of the test krewe said something like "a skill" important to the perma shadow bar would be changed - which would not have made sense if it was shadow form itself being nerfed. Basically, I think any change they make will still allow perma sf as long as you use cons - sorry, but like i said, the devs seem ot love this build)

I'm sorry.

QQ SF is going away and I can't solo the game anymore

That is actually a simple yet elegant solution.

However, I would say that if that change occurs, then they need to balance Deadly Paradox/Shadow Form combo to allow two, possibly three rotations before it becomes un-maintainable, similar to the way some VwK and Spellbreaker builds work.

So it would cease to be be an uber tanking build, but still retain some general usage as a farming skill and/or run skill in tough areas.

The other option since people seem to be most angry that it can "solo" the entire game (a claim I and others have disproved over and over again, but for the sake of argument, w/e) is to allow it be maintained indefinitely, while consequently doing one of these two:

1. Ends on an attack, attack skill or offensive spell. Not sure how they would script it, but basically make it so that doing anything but maintaining it would cancel it, which would allow Permas to still act as tanks without doing damage or...

2. Change the damage output reduction while under Shadowform from 33% to 100%, which kind of makes sense if you think of it as Stealth or as becoming a shadow, which can't interact physically with others.

[edit]I think the damage reduction change is the optimal solution, this would allow a Sin to use the skills necessary to maintain SF, while packing snares like Grasping Earth or even Deep Freeze (0 damage with the change) which would replicate aggro holding in games like WoW which have aggro rating.

In either case, Shadowform ceases to be a solo farming skill and becomes a tanking skill. As it would be unable to deal damage it certainly could not solo, and would encourage party play, just as an OB Flesh tank would. I'm not sure if having enchants cast on top of SF would be a good idea, like Monk smites for example, since this would circumvent the idea of the Sin being a shadow tank. But it might not be such a bad idea to allow a SF/Smite combo team.

I think allowing Perma-SF to remain in game, but changing the way it works to depending on others for damage is a much better solution than nerfing it back into useless obscurity.

This method of balancing, making each character have a specific role in a party to fill, is what party balance is all about. Of course, given the GW community's penchant for optimization, a team build that has one modified SF tank may end up with seven RoJ smiting monks, and not take Eles or what ever else, HOWEVER having a dependable and solid main tank that is largely immune to harm gives MUCH more flexibility to team makeup in elite areas.

Which means of course that under optimized builds, or even marginalized classes such as Mesmers and Rangers could be taken without hesitation, if a party knows its got a solid tank that can hold aggro with little fear of dieing.

This "safety net" was the point behind Ursan being introduced. I personally thought Ursan was a great idea, it allowed any player, regardless of base class to participate in high end areas without fear of rejection, and those high end areas were packed. The only requirement was a high Norn rank to make it as efficient and safe as possible, and for most I think that's not far out of reach.

Once Ursan became nerfed, all those classes that weren't War/Ele/Mo were once again rejected from groups. A skill may be "overpowered" compared to other skills, but if it allows people to play together in areas that were heretofore off limits due to class exclusion and preferentiality, then its a good skill in my book.

That or maybe DP are the most probable answer. That could at least block runners, I doubt they will buy a cons for every run. That's, what? 3k out of th ewindow just for a single dungeon. Still possible, but you'll need a full group and all...

Or simple Quickening Zephir and more energy management!

BTW if we're off-topic, what was the original point of the topic?

If anet have ever learned something from their mistake would be something like.


For xxx second you will be yyy witch don't include attack and spell against you fail.


Something like this.

Recharge 15 second
Stance. for 1...5 second you become invisible to enemy (lose aggro), they dont body block anymore. End if use a offensive spell or attack. That attack deal +xxx more damage.

Keep the pvp version as it is now.


And gasp maybe this is what is actually an assassin supposed to do, kill a vital target instead of you know ....

I'm not sure you can do SF/Smite since all attacks miss. So there'd be nothing to trigger the damage for Retribution/ Holy Wrath.

How about SF/SS?

EDIT: Yeah just double checked. A Smite Monk is useless to a SF'er.

There's this concept called passing the cost onto the customer that you should look into. The run will still have the same underlying value to players, and for some of them it'll still be worth it even with the additional cost factored in. Net result: fewer people get run, fewer runners exist, runs are more expensive, but runs still exist. No one wins.

That's the worst of all possible "solutions" to the problem of SF; it does nothing to fix the problem, making no one better off and some people worse off. Let's hope that's not what gets implemented.

This,,,,, I like

Yeah actually this is probably what would happen, even if runs triple in price. It would just be longer to gather the clients. But a lot of people wouldn't shy away from 10-15k runs. If it reaches that high, lastr time I bothered about run price was ages ago. I could be saying complete non-sense.

I hope that if and when SF does get nerfed, there will be a moment of clarity or rather an "oh sh!t" moment for all those who complained about it..or rather b!tched when they realize that they shot themselves fatally in the foot. Because with the loss of SF..yeah...the dungeon speedclears will fade..but then again..so will all the outpost runners and faction providers. Uhoh..did someone forget that those lil guys & gals you paid or tipped to get you your EOTN tour of outposts so you could get your armor, sunglasses, dread masks, etc also use SF. How much will you b!tch then when you actually have to walk your butts there with your crappy h-n-h crew. The same goes for the other elite skills on the potential chopping block. First PermaSins, now 600/smite monks. Good luck getting your hard mode dungeon books filled in without those guys. Oh..and those who do the DTSC...it's gonna be harder to maintain those town ownerships...you might actually have to start playing AB again.

It's getting really old the b!tching about people who choose to farm or speed run dungeons vs those who don't. Farming is NOT hard..it doesn't take a genius to use a skill bar. Nor is speedclear. I've seen a lot of idiots successfully farm just about anything. The problem is not the skill, it's choice of how you use it. If you don't want to use a runner, fine....hnh it yourself or go pugstyle, but ...expect to be a little poorer in game than the rest of the crowd and take a bit longer to get the stuff you want in the long run. But for the LOVE of Balthazar, please quit screwing it for the rest of us who enjoy getting things done a lil faster and easier. IMO...Anet needs to keep balance in PVP arenas and leave the PVE world alone because if it ruins the game any further than it has...no one is gonna want to play it now or any future version, no matter how pretty the graphics are.

Oh..and good luck to the survivors, you guys will especially need it.

^- I'm fine with that. Really. I don't need runs or speedclears and I can manage without SF, 600/smite, discord and the likes.

It's not about being easy or hard. I do HM books without problems without using Shadowform (protip: heroes & henchmen). There is no "skill" involved in SF. You just press 1,2 and optionally you can attack or cast a spell.
What I especially hate about SF is that even if I finish a dungeon which takes 1.5 hour to do (eg. FoW), almost every drop is useless because it's overfarmed by thousands of thousands of SF sins.

Firstly, run to an outpost? I lolled. H&H can clear HM dungeons just fine too... more lols. Survivors? Got plenty of them, no permasins in sight... what are you smoking? Just because you're lazy and unable to play without a win button, don't assume everyone else is equally incompetent. I guess I'll be waiting a long time for that moment of clarity.

People in guild never have "moments of clarity"....I mean some people still say DoA is perfect even though its completely empty and many guilds doesn't even want to do that area unless they're extremely bored and have lots of free time.

The problem is not the skill, nor laziness. It is CHOICE and use of skill bar. If someone wants to do something faster or easier, why shouldn't they. No one is stopping anyone from doing it the old fashioned way. But why should the old-fashioned gamers hold back those who like to do things differently. (FYI I don't need runners, but they make things convenient, big deal and wtf..."a win button"..nice try..but the personal attack was stupid and a pathetic low shot...showing your Kungfu is not strong. :P) Back on topic..far be it from me or anyone to tell someone else how they should play be allowed to play the game.

Anet is on a downward spiral of self destructiveness it if continues to nerf skills just because some gamers dont like how other gamers use them. Any 8 skills can be turned into a god-like bar. So unless they want to nerf every skill in the game, they need to rethink the nerfs.

If Anet wants to fix the state of things..they need to up the game. Keep the skills, hell even revert the skills, but stop nerfing them. Instead...make the monsters harder....give us a new level if you find even hard mode too easy. Give us God Mode...level 50 bosses with new challenges, make us use those same skills and try to make new omgawd skills bars.

I mean this game is 4 years old now and getting older. Do you think after 4 years of playing the same game..people actually want to do the old-fashioned method of getting through it. Get real.

you can vanq DT in about 30mins with H/H so i dont see AB getting more faster faction then that.
seriously dont people feel like their cheating when they use shadow form?
i have never paid for a run for a dungeon besides CoF while i was afking doing other stuff, completed pretty much all elite areas without SF not talking big but i really feel dumb founded when people say using SF requires more skill then playing balanced, im not saying im a good player but i believe SF has made people terriable in this game.

/facepalm

Pretty sure a devalued 15-22 req 9 Emerald Blade does the same damage now as when it first came out.

Hence, not useless. The only way your argument makes any sort of sense is if you're worried about e-peen fapping, which of course has absolutely nothing to do with gameplay balance.

When are you people going to learn the difference between an actual economy that is based on relative values connected to an item's actual usage/rarity (i.e. WoW's economy) and one that is cosmetic only and grafted on almost as an afterthought (i.e. Guild Wars dress up economy)?

Until you get the hint that all the farming in the world in GW, even if SF allowed Permasins to enter a zone, instagib everything in the entire instance in 10 seconds and zone back with hundreds of thousands in gold items and ectos does not change gameplay, then you're never going to understand the issue. All it does is make grind more efficient, which most would not consider "gameplay" anyways, more like work actually.

In fact, if ANet chnaged the armor system such that once you hit level 20, you could select any armor skin for your character (as in the PvP equipment screen, but without requiring ten thousand hours of point farming) the illusionary economy would explode but the gameplay would remain the same.

Trading imaginary items for fake pixel money is a means to get prestige skins, but is not what Guild WARS is all about, unless ANet allows one to conquer a Guild or win Alliance Faction by setting up trade embargoes and tariffs. There's a reason the game isn't called Trade Wars, or Economy Wars, or whatever.

If you still don't understand, basically a Hundred Blades Wammo is just as effective with a max collector's Ascalon Razor as he is with an Emerald Blade or Crystalline Sword. The only difference is a rare skin. The best way to acquire it is through farming, and the most efficient farm build is the best way to farm.

Since ANet's stated position is that they are not against farming, then nerfing SF for this reason is against their stated principles. If its about gameplay balance and SF tanking, I'd have to say the issue lies in poor class design (hence why only three classes ever routinely get groups, War/Ele/Mo) of the Assassin and others, combined with Elite area design that has nothing to offer classes like Mesmers and Rangers, and is simply composed of more HP and more damage, which your average player, up to and including elitist jerks, usually thwart by taking tanks, healers and damage mitigation. Which doesn't really include anyone but the Big 3.

Nerf SF, and the Sin vanishes, but not in the awesome about to kill you way, but the obscurity unused and marginalized way. ALTER SF such that it still has a use in Elite areas (some of the suggestions posted already are quite good, simple and elegant), and then the Big 3 have some competition. Then ANet just needs to figure out how to get the other marginal classes included in group rosters.

I couldn't agree with this more, really, they need to add a skill that just kills every foe in the mission/dungeon/explorable area for you with a single activation... I mean, that would be faster and easier, I certainly don't want to waste my time playing the game... surely they should add such a skill, after all... it's about CHOICE, why shouldn't I want to do something faster or easier?

Yeah, sarcasm... don't bother replying.

The funny part is, is that this version would actually be more balanced than the current form.

Not really. You could just move in groups of 8, killing 8 monsters at the same time. Arcane Echo it if you are afraid of dying. Also, it would make killing bosses like Abaddon, Mallyx, Shiro or Dhuum stupidly easy.

1. If you want a challenge change the meta. You can say the new dayway is a new build, which technically it is but its not a new meta. Dayway along with every other SC build out there is based upon SF. If you want a challenge do it without SF and still try to get a 26 minute time.
2. If a build has SF in it, its not really innovation IMO. Innovation would be the first guild to use COP and SF sins in DOA to clear it in an hour, or trenchway tactics, or the tactics in the 4th room in foundry, or using E/me in UW to solo question portions all those things are innovation. Due to the static meta in PVE there is very little "innovation" just continual refinement of the same builds over and over.

Its all the same stuff over and over, you have an SF tank aggro everything up then you spike, or you have 5,6,7,8 SF sins run around and solo a bunch of stuff, or pair up to work on stuff ingame.

I think the best thing to happen right now ingame, would be make SF unmaintable, then give us a bunch of dartboard changes to random elites and other skills then see what happens. This would basically invalidate all the current builds and tactics, but it would be a challenge to have to redefine tactics and "innovate" new ways to complete things.

Exactly. And yet it's still more balanced than the current SF.

First of all I really enjoy thoughtful opinions and genuine suggestions regardless of my personal view. Of course this kind of thread usually degenerates quite quickly into a festival of hate but no big.

"1. If you want a challenge change the meta. You can say the new dayway is a new build, which technically it is but its not a new meta. Dayway along with every other SC build out there is based upon SF. If you want a challenge do it without SF and still try to get a 26 minute time."

I'm guessing you mean "many" rather than "every" since that would be ridiculous with the 600/smite dominance of faction farming and many other clears and the 1 minute ATFH HM hero build etc. But you are correct that SF builds do use ah.....SF and in that sense they are alike. Now the tactics used by the different secondary's vary a bit but as they are SF then any creativity or skill applied to the organizing or use of the build can be dismissed because we all know that any beginner can run any SF build in any area under any circumstances and be quick and successful . That is why it is so easy to hop a UW pug and get the chest every time in under 30min right?


"2. If a build has SF in it, its not really innovation IMO. Innovation would be the first guild to use COP and SF sins in DOA to clear it in an hour, or trenchway tactics, or the tactics in the 4th room in foundry, or using E/me in UW to solo question portions all those things are innovation. Due to the static meta in PVE there is very little "innovation" just continual refinement of the same builds over and over."

CoP(spike) SF(tank) etc are nice tactics (and inevitable given the very make up of different character classes with different armor and skills etc) and finding ways to exploit game AI and monster spawns or unique skill combos (e/mo er solo vale........cough DayWay) are creative but does that really take away from any skill or creativity teams (that include SF) are using to speed up and refine a SC?

"Its all the same stuff over and over, you have an SF tank aggro everything up then you spike, or you have 5,6,7,8 SF sins run around and solo a bunch of stuff, or pair up to work on stuff ingame."

Any activity tends to have tactics that are best suited to achieving the goal. I'm not sure what you are really trying to say, the tactics obviously grow out of what is the goal. Without SF would people no longer try to stall/tank/block aggro and spike? Would it not be beneficial to divide up quests (if possible) and complete objectives more quickly? Would removing SF actually change these very basic (and built into your character classes) aspects of the game?

I'm guessing you mean "many" rather than "every" since that would be ridiculous with the 600/smite dominance of faction farming and many other clears and the 1 minute ATFH HM hero build etc. But you are correct that SF builds do use ah.....SF and in that sense they are alike.
I probably should clarify SC builds in elite areas, fow doa uw. I don't consider dungeons elite because you can hobble together any group of builds and struggle through it; you can't do this in most elite areas.

What I am saying about SF groups is the essential core to every build out there. Do you think dayway would be possible without SF? FOWsc would not be possible without the 2 permas soloing over 50% of the quests, and everyone knows that without recall on 1 of the perma tanks in DOA you probably would have to fight alot more, and thus slowing down your times.

Now the tactics used by the different secondary's vary a bit but as they are SF then any creativity or skill applied to the organizing or use of the build can be dismissed because we all know that any beginner can run any SF build in any area under any circumstances and be quick and successful . That is why it is so easy to hop a UW pug and get the chest every time in under 30min right?

The combonation of SF and compotent players with a good understanding of the game = sub 30 minute UW, 34 minute DOA, and other amazing times. The days of the average UWSC pugs taking 20 minutes are probably gone, or at least months away before the rolls get dumbed down to where you can solo them.


CoP(spike) SF(tank) etc are nice tactics (and inevitable given the very make up of different character classes with different armor and skills etc) and finding ways to exploit game AI and monster spawns or unique skill combos (e/mo er solo vale........cough DayWay) are creative but does that really take away from any skill or creativity teams (that include SF) are using to speed up and refine a SC?

No, it doesn't. Simply put the fastest, most profitable way to do anything in PVE is almost always with shadowform. My comments were meant to disprove someone else's statements that dayway was a meta change, which it is not. I've looked at the build your guild put together and it certainly is much harder to do than the previous UWSC. I can give credit when its due, and there is lot of skill, knowledge of game mechanics and creativity involved in your guys build. But if you really look at the fundamentals, it comes down to SF solo'ing/preping an area. I knew as soon as the new UW update came out it would be days MAYBE weeks before it was do-able sub 1 conset.

Any activity tends to have tactics that are best suited to achieving the goal. I'm not sure what you are really trying to say, the tactics obviously grow out of what is the goal. Without SF would people no longer try to stall/tank/block aggro and spike? Would it not be beneficial to divide up quests (if possible) and complete objectives more quickly? Would removing SF actually change these very basic (and built into your character classes) aspects of the game

I am trying to say we haven't seen a major update in PVE that really shakes up the game. I am personally quite bored of the game, because its the same skills, builds, tactics over and over(granted there have been changes, but fundamentally its the same). There will be very little new content in game going forward, so at least give us the challenge of coming up with some new ways to do things because the old ones don't work

Without SF, successfully spliting becomes much much harder. It also becomes much harder to complete speed clears, for the simple reason you will have to fight much more stuff to complete the same content. Anyways you had some good points and I certainly enjoy discussing things as an adult, which I think we can agree on rarely happens on guru. Cheers

innovate new ways to farm.. with us farmers that's all we do =] you guys are the ones crying not us.. I'm looking at the player base who actually farms

alot of the stuff I've read by the whiners in this thread.. they so obviously haven't even tried sf or they run one character as a main and refuse to run anything else.. pretty obvious

there's other ways to do things as mentioned.. but you guys are just whining to bring everyone down to your level of play by making it seem like- that's the way everyone should play- slow and elite dungeons should take hours..

I got Legendary Survivor on my Assassin without SF and without doing Kilroy 50 million times. You just need a scythe, some XP scrolls, a bunch of cupcakes, and the patience to do the same run over and over and over (with the understanding that you will make zero gold), and you can get almost 100k experience an hour, if you know where to look.

So basically you cheated. You use an IWin button for your legendary survivor. You didn't play throught the missions and quests linearly, like the game was designed, you used buffs and clears to get a title you didn't earn!

Same argument, different use. Now do you people see how ridiculous your argument is? Probably not...

He cheated? Lol. He just used the stuff the game offered. If you call THAT cheating, then you could call SF ubercheat for running through all kind of mobs without dieing.

His post was sarcasm....

Hey, that totally doesn't sound like a retarded defence for every bugged, overpowered or any other skill that was bad for the game.
Get a clue.

Exactly. Now we need to look into nerfing consumables and scythes ability to target more than one enemy, because it's too imbalanced.

The ability to play through GW, the way I wanted to play through it, was one of the attracting aspects of the game when I came over from Elder Scrolls. I mean if GW is supposed to be played in a linear fashion without substitution. Then they should nerf all characters who are Perma Pre's and make them go to Post Sear. I mean that was the way it is intended to be played right? How fair is it to the poor Charr and Scales that have to fight a level 20 toon, lol?

I was going to write some big long response to this but then I realized before SF you probably ran carebear, and before that you probably didnt do anything "elite" I would recommened learning other skills outside of shadowform, sliver armor and PVE skills

First post in this thread was almost a month ago. I don't think we'll see any skill update until at least half January. SF nerf? I'll have to see it before I believe it. /thread.

tell you what...tell you what..why don't...anet...remove runes and insignia's then evvvveryone will be the same there will be no OP SF for these 2 year olds to cry over...there will be no ability to perma...and everything will go back to taking 4 hours to clear....then after a month bring them back, just to show how slow and boring balanced gameplay is.

So running a skillbar with bar a few exceptions has no counter isn't boring?

In fact why bother having to refresh SF why not have it on the first use last for the duration of the time in which a player in a zone?

Oh and while we're at it i find it boring having to fight tedious ememys for more then two seconds so can we have a skill that instantly kills groups of monsters plz?

Sarcasm aside, where are the threads asking for the rewards and/or the time taken to be reduced to complete these areas if its such a problem? I guess people are willing to ignore those issues when they have a easymode/i win button to confort them huh

If you don't already have one, roll a sin, make it a perma, and roll through all the content in NM, then in HM solo. When you can actually do that, then you can call it an iWin button.

I actually lvled up my sin, and tried out SF over the last couple days, just to see if it was as uber powerful as everyone says. I left Doomlore and stood in front of the Charr group with the flameshielders and kept SF up with no damage to me at all. I thought "hmmm, maybe they have a point", then the Charr Seekers got within aggro range...death. Really great iWin button there!

Every area in GW has specific monsters with specific skills. If you read up on the area, you can create a solo or team build that will make that area easy. Every skill in the game, even SF, has it's counters, making it impossible to have any one build be an iWin for the entire game.

If the perception that the entire game became a cake-walk is the problem you have with SF then I have your solution. Completely random monsters. This way there is NO way to make the perfect build to own an area. Want to reward 8 man, balanced PuG's? Random monsters.

Those few areas which have counters to the perma are why people quote 90% soloable rather than 100%

I love solo farming, but there are few areas that you can do that, and you need manyu builds. Broken Form allows you to do it for most of the game with just one iWin button.

That makes no sense. With the skill unlock packs and tomes you can put together any build whatsoever in a matter of seconds. So you don't like one iWin over another? That's your argument?

And you can easily farm any area in the game with either a solo build or a gimmick hero/team build.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Category:A...farming_builds

Check out the sin section, then read up on all of the areas it can farm. Just because you can't play a permasin doesn't mean others can't. If you want my opinion you can read the rest of the thread- I'm tired of responding to the same arguments.

You didnt understand a word she said.