Shadow Form meets the end

Kaleban is correct

The game design itself is now so flawed that merely removing SF without fixing the myriad of other flaws will in no way help the game and may make it much worse by making those flaws even more evident.

Wait...so we should leave an extremely overpowered skill in the game because the PvE part is not perfect?

Why don't you guys drink the f*cking koolaid already.

You on the other hand, are the sort of gamer companies want, which is why starting today, aNet will only be selling GW to pre-screened users whose gaming, moral and life code best follow aNet's freshly re-written eula, which also states that our money is dirty and aNet don't want it at all.

Of course. Because after all, aNet isn't in this to make money, good quality players who play games "The way they were meant to be played!"(Just as stupid a statement now as it ever was/will be..) are what they're here for, and the money gained from those good players is more than enough to keep the company afloat.

Isn't it?

Furthermore, the abridged eula goes on to state that aNet will now go on to buy back all accounts held by people not playing the way that the "good" players think is correct...LOL!!


Please people, if you'e going to make obviously elitist, prejudiced, and hell, outright stupid statements like this, then you have probably picked the wrong forum.

Camperstrike Forum is that-a-way----------->>

Perhaps because I was responding to Fay Vert who claimed my reason for defending SF was purely selfish and that I played GW as a single player game only?

Which of course you would have seen, had you bothered to read and comprehend my post, rather than just pick out a buzzword and try to skew the language to perpetuate your flawed convictions.

And the problems I state are not unrelated. When you finally understand the idea that "Shadow Form is a symptom and not the cause" then FINALLY you might glean some understanding of the underlying issue, which is why SF and "interrupting is useless" are so intimately connected, which in Yelling terms means:

SF = bad, interrupting = suck, both = poor game design.

The problem of GW and SF in particular is that Shadow Form is like an Agent in the Matrix, both are part of a system with rules. You can kill the agents (Matrix I), change the agents (Matrix II), or even allow the agent to take over (Matrix III), but as long as the SYSTEM remains unchanged, the same problem (Neo, the problem of free will and choice) will keep re-occurring over and over.

The only way to fix GW so that an issue like Permasins DON'T keep cropping up is to change the way areas are designed, specifically, the time taken/reward ratio combined with mob design that allows for varied group design. In this latter part is where ANet failed most, as its easiest to design an area that requires the "three pillars of RPGs," i.e. DPS, healing and tanking, but much more difficult to design an area that is balanced around those three PLUS skills like interrupts, traps and DoT hexes and such.

IF ANet had set out from the outset to balance around more than just the three pillars, this discussion might not have even taken place, and we'd see balanced parties where there was as much need for an Interrupt/Dom Mesmer and Traps/Beastmaster as there is demand for nukers and healers. Introduction of mob types or sub-types that can only be killed by an interrupt is one such idea I posited earlier, or monsters who have 1000 armor everywhere but their feet slots, which would have 0 armor, making Trap Rangers a must, etc.

Monster variety and composition is the main problem, second to class design and reward density and variation of instances. These are all MUCH larger issues than Shadow Form, 600/Smite, OB Flesh Eles, etc., etc. It does no good to try to balance skills if your game environment is so one-sided that only a few specific jobs will ever be required to conquer them, namely physical/elemental tank, ranged nuking and healing/protting.

To the first point, she had the pics taken and without much resistance allowed them to be passed around. It wasn't some malicious computer nerd hacking her account and distributing them to everyone as you seem to be inferring with this statement. You also can gfy with this whole internet nerd virgin played out bs, you don't know who the **** any of us are or how much we get laid or don't get laid. If a girl with a nice rack gives tert pics to someone on a forum and then makes no effort in denying the fact I think it would make us gos to not want to see them. To the second point your post comes off as ridiculously pathetic and overcompensating. I get the feeling that you are one of those guys who is constantly life tilted that the girls you fall in love with always go for *******s and never want anything more from you than to be "just friends." I can imagine its really aggravating to put so much effort into bending over backwards for these girls only to time and time again have them go off and hook up with another guy who you deem to be an *******. Let me let you in on a little clue, girls like to be ****ed by *****, when you act like a little nurturing bitch its not gonna turn them on because they most likely see you as a pathetic figure who would likely cry after sex and profess your love to her the next day. So next time before projecting your insecurities out over internet how bout you unclench your ******* so your balls can finally drop into your sac and then maybe, just maaayyybbbee, you'll finally get the girl.

Probably because it is.

I'm sorry, but W T F are you on about? In what way does any of this crap bear any relevance whatsoever to what I posted? Perhaps u meant to MSN this to someone? Fk'd if I know, but I see no relevance whatsoever in any of this completely random dross, if anyone else can, please, PLEASE fill me in..

For the record, not that it's any of your business, I'm married(10 years), with kids. So I guess u fail again..though I suppose, a post like this, by the looks accidentally in the wrong place, gives a rare insight into what we're working with here, doesn't it?

but yeah i can nly assume....wrong forum

He does that when he knows he's losing the argument and has nothing of value to say, I've seen him do it at least one other time in this thread alone. Its a copy/paste job.

@Yelling, if you, again, had read any of my posts and comprehended what I said, you'd realize that yours and Vert's assertions that I'm selfish and or single mindedly pursuing my one and only SP build are completely wrong and off base.

But I guess the only thing I can do is /ignore you, since you obviously have no interest in intellectual debate or even just normal conversation on an interesting and contested topic. The Yelling version:

/ignore

Great post. Quoted for truth.

Can we stop with the mudslinging, please?

SF is not a farming build. It is a "rape PvE" build that just happens to also be great for farming due to the fact that it can violate PvE in it's most private places.

Ok, let's lay out the logic.

A) From a gameplay perspective, there is no point in using an inferior build.

B) SF is superior to other builds.

C) From a gameplay perspective, there is no point in using anything except SF

If A is true and B is true, then C is true.

This is not a slippery slope. There is no Rube Goldberg doomsday device here. As long as we assume A and B to be correct, then the logic holds. We can all agree on A, and B is obvious (no other build allows you to outright ignore monsters completely and kill them at your leisure).

Well, you don't have to actually suggest it. What I was getting at was that to support SF without supporting it for other professions was hypocritical, since it essentially gives sins an unfair advantage over everyone else. If you don't mind other professions having it, then good; your arguments maintain internal consistency, even if I don't agree with them.

Have you seen some of the crap that gets labelled as "Great" on PvX?

Not all "Great" builds are equal. Guess what? SF > other "Great" builds.

All of these problems are huge issues. However, SF doesn't allieviate them. In fact, it exacerbates them. Currently, high-end PvE is dominated by one class. Being dominated by three classes would be an improvement. It still wouldn't be nearly enough, certainly, but it's still better than the status quo.

And even if Anet did fix the areas to accomodate more classes, it wouldn't mean jack if SF sins were still able to run around immune to everything the monsters could throw at them. So, it's not Fix Areas->Nerf SF, it's Nerf SF->Fix Areas.

Lol, I'm not even going to go there...

Premise A is only true if you assume that all players enjoy the same form of gameplay, i.e. enjoy balanced builds but in no way enjoy farming.

Premise B presupposes that SF is superior to all builds in every way in every area. As a player of various professions, I am proof positive that this is untrue, as I can clear UW solo in its current form with a Spirit Spammer Rit, but not any type of Permasin. There are far too many examples to list here, I'm sure you can think of a few.

Premise C assumes that expediency and efficiency are the definition of gameplay, which is in direct contravention to most of the points posted by "the other side."

In all fairness, all three of your premises are horribly flawed and assume a majority agreement with flawed logic. As much as a vocal contingent on this forum might suggest, I would suspect the reality is that most people just want to play and have fun, with whatever build and gameplay style pleases them, and leave the hyper-skill balancing and elitist bickering to upper level PvP types. Hence ANet's division of PvP and PvE skills.

I of course mind other professions havign access to Perma-SF, that's the Sin's hallmark. I am not against Rangers for example having Perma-Escape (Dwarven Stability), Eles having Perma-OB Flesh, Monks with Perma-Spellbreaker, etc.

The one defining trait of Perma-SF is its ability to circumvent both spell and physical, whereas the others tend to go one way or the other. The difference smoothes out as you consider the other skills on the bar, such that classes like Eles get vastly superior e-management, Monks get greater redundancy, heals and survivability where a SF would get mangled, etc.

I've seen many builds on PvX, and used a fair few of them. MANY come from this forum, that are tested by users from here and then posted up on the Wiki. Wiki build quality is much improved than when it first became a resource, the prevailing attitude that Wiki is "crap" is just resistance to change and the egocentric view that somehow your elitist build ideas are better than those available to the "plebes."

Which came first, the area or SF? Circular argument fallacy. High end PvE WAS dominated by three classes prior to Perma-SF, now its dominated by four, just see Faction SC builds as an example. Nerfing SF returns the status quo, nothing more. I STILL see many more Monks Eles and Wars in every outpost compared to the number of Sins in only a very few cases, those usually being areas such as speedbooking and such.

/facepalm. FIXING the area balance would mean that SF could not dominate said areas! Think! SF only dominates because areas are designed in such a way that SF counters everything, just as 55 monks used to and 600/Smite still does. If you introduce non-targeted enchant stripping, boom goes the SF weasel. Just like Dieing Nightmares ended 55 Monks soloing UW.

God, you'd THINK people (players and devs) would learn from the past, apparently the epic failure that is nerfbat is still the go-to fix for minor problems. Its like using lit dynamite to plug a hole in a dam. It works for a little bit but makes the problem worse in the end.

When I said, "from a gameplay perspective", I was referring to optimization (ie, what is "best").

Energy management by itself is meaningless. Energy management is only useful if that extra energy allows you to do something that you otherwise wouldn't have had the energy to do. Anything beyond that is a waste. SF manages just fine without the energy management of an Ele.

Spirit spammers are inherently limited by the fact that you can't have more than one of a spirit out at a time. Compare 6 SF sins to 6 spirit spammers and get back to me.

SF is superior to other builds often enough to qualify. If you think it's alright for a certain profession to only be mechanically useful (as opposed to a waste of a party slot that could have been filled by a SF sin) in one area, then fine. Otherwise, SF needs to be nerfed for the other professions to have any hope of being useful.

As for examples of crap on PvX:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:D/an...al_PvE_Dervish

Inferior to zealous vow dervs in every meaningful way (the difference in dps from the DW is overcome in 2 attacks). And really, zealous renewal as energy management, when you could have just put a couple points into wind and used attacker's insight?

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:E/Me_Obby_Flesh_Tank

Why would you ever use this when there's SF?

To be fair, though, they must have cleaned up this site since the last time I checked the "great" builds. There used to be a lot more crap in there. Stuff like AoG+Conjure Frost.

Just because the majority of the community thinks that a profession is good at something, doesn't mean they are. After all, most people still think that monks are the best healers.

If you change the area so that SF doesn't dominate it, you've essentially just nerfed SF in a roundabout way. But that doesn't qualify as "fixing the area so that other classes are useful". That's just a way of nerfing a skill in 2 hours when you could have done it in 5 minutes.

Then say "optimization." Your argument takes on a whole different meaning then.

It also provides a "cushion" if skills get interrupted, lag, moving and canceling a skill then having to re-cast, etc. I didn't claim that an Ele was best, all I said was that each class's "uber" elites offer something, maybe not as much obvious benefit as SF, but still its there.

Again, one of the main contentions in this thread is that Permasin is so uber it can solo 90% of the game. I proved that's not true, using the Rit as an example. Speedclears of areas are of course a different animal entirely, but I don't see many all-Sin teams outside of niche Speedclears of UW. Try taking an all Sin team through the Deep and get back to me.

Unfortunately you're wrong as is obvious just from the number of builds on PvXWiki, to the number of non-Sins in game at any one time, to a host of other factors. Additionally, if SF is nerfed, all you'll see is a return to the status quo, although given Regina's comments in the skill thread, its likely Warriors will be getting a boost, while they as usual ignore Rangers, Dervishes and Mesmers, not to mention poor Paragons. Sins without SF will just return to the land of H/H where they came from...

Directly above it:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:D/W_...Attack_Spammer

I said PvXWiki was good, not the ONLY site with builds. I'm sure most people once they use a build modify it, take for example Sabway and Discordway, two heavily used Hero builds that I modify for certain areas, or even switching entirely their skills around so they only resemble the original in inspiration only. PvXWiki is a good place to start, not to end with.

If your Ele is your main? To be fair it has less marginal utility than a Sin, but tell that to the Ele sitting in DoA who doesn't have a Sin. A remarkable inversion of the environment pre-EoTN, where Sins were laughed at for even MAKING it to DoA! Karmic justice perhaps?

The builds actually cycle quite a lot from what I've seen, and have improved in quality by quite a bit. Not always, but in many cases. Which makes it more of a resource than a hindrance.

In many ways, perception is reality. A MS/DB Sin may be the heaviest nuker around, but if everyone thinks its insane to take a sin, then the Ele gets the slot. The majority of the community in game decides who gets invited and who doesn't, word of mouth advertising spreads fast in an online game. Try getting a PUG stating that you believe Monks are not the best healers, and 9 times out of 10 you'll be laughed out because people will think of you like the "end of times" guys on the side of the road wearing a sandwichboard.

You're not seeing the big picture. The dominance of 55 monks in UW were corrected by introducing a lvl 18 mob that nuked enchants in one shot. At the time, the skills to 55 were not nerfed. The reliance on one gameplay mechanic (enchants) that characterized the 55 Monk were its ultimate downfall. I have no doubt that at some point, Grasps and Skellies of Dhuum will get Gaze of Fury to challenge Spirit Spammers.

But the bottom line is, to make other characters useful, you MUSt change the area to make their skills necessary, or at least have enough marginal utility to consider using. Why take a Ranger for DPS when a Warrior far outstrips him? If the area was changed to require interrupts, or the party would benefit much more from that gameplay mechanic, then choosing between a mesmer, Ranger and Warrior would present more of a choice.

But as long as the areas in the game are based around dealing DPS in massive quantities, healing/protting and tanking, then only those classes designed to do so (Ele, Monk and War) will be seriously considered in normal gameplay.

While I disagree with your stance on SF, I think that this is a very important point, and well stated. Of course it's the basis of my argument against SF....

Please, enlighten me as to how letting others play how they wish could be used as an argument to nerf ANY build, not just SF?

Now lets be clear : nerfing and buffing is what keep this game fun, ever skill update anet change some stuff giving new life to the game.

What nerfing and buffing (at least usually) don't do is maintaining the $$ revenue from the hardcore farmer(SC is pretty much a farm).

If you value your fun from the game from the amount of ectos on your storage sure probably you don't like the nerfs.
If you play the game because you like try new stuff, find new way to play etc skills update are a blessing.

Being a libertarian at heart, and an Austrian economist, I could care less how anyone plays the game as long as it doesn't affect me. If you go back and review some of my previous posts I believe I have been consistent in that opinion. I have never been against solo farmers, and am happy for those who want to spend countless hours filling up their HoM and obtaining shiny stuff. HoM's and shiny stuff doesn't affect me.

The problem that I have is when a single build (aka Ursan) so dominates the game that it's very difficult to form a group unless you use a specific build. While that has always been a problem to some extent, given the nature of gamers and the general propensity of people to optimize time and maximize satisfaction, Ursan before it, and SF most recently, have taken it to new levels of absurdity. That's the basis of my argument.

Personally I could care less whether they nerf SF or add environmental counters; I'd just prefer to see a bit more balance in the game.

SF isn't even used in PvP; it doesn't need to be balanced.

what I loved about this game from the beginning was the ability to make builds that could solo areas.. if you go back to 2005 we had the 55 bond monk- which was op as it doesn't even need upkeep.. they nerfed it and we had to start using ps instead (whats ironic is it's possible to do this again nowdays)

so alot of peeps started using the 55 and necro combo to farm the uw after the bond nerf.. I just farmed it solo same as before with a pretty good time.. then they put in the nightmares.. people cried XD.. farmed it solo same as before just wanded the little guys (ecto was going for around 14k these days).. my ritualist was doing some pretty sweet farms like all the oni in rheas crater and in factions, the deep used to have chests right at the beginning after you opened up the first room.. solo rit I got sooo many zodiac weapons before they moved the chests up.. uw I eventually switched to elem as it was alot faster

drokars runs took a bit of talent to get down there before nightfall.. fun runs especially then you got a full bus.. there was even a running guild that charged peeps to teach them the run.. thought that was going too far!

there were scandals early in gw also.. like who can forget when the trader was selling ectos for less than it was buying them back XD alot of peeps got rich that day- and it was never rolled back

running missions solo was another challenge that was pretty fun pre-nightfall.. SF sins wasn't even used back then, actually alot of people deleted their sins- you ran on a solo warrior usually (thirsty river and elonas) or (like hells) a elem and henches

when nightfall came out there was some super skills available to all classes.. as a farmer I had pretty much done it all at that point.. sorrows furnace solo's with a balth warrior (pre-scatter) -=] ranger solo farmed alot of bosses that dropped greens in both proph and factions.. these weren't things the average peanuthead was doing and was very profitable..

guys like rachtoh made guides on farming spiders for shards in fow solo.. that was pretty ingeniuous.. there was alot of fun in finding ways to solo elite areas of the game

this time was great for farmers.. then nightfall introduced heros, I can see why they did this, the console crowd was starting to pour in.. your average guy was having trouble using henchmen only to get through the content (I don't see how but that was the complaint at the time).. this is responsible for what we see today imo.. I actually quit for a long time and didn't even come back till beginning of this year

I came back and saw shockingly there was blanket statements on what sucked and what worked.. same lot of guys who run their mouth but they don't actually do anything they talk about.. wiki is to blame for alot of this I think.. peeps instead of thinking for themselves like we used to- they go to the wiki and that's the extent to what they know about the game

this is the majority of guildwars outside of PVP I believe- the community has always been bad, just ask gaiyle about what happened in shang jea over that one holiday years back on factions release- I knew there were braindead people playing the game but to have them all in one district was funny as hell.. if your anet and you want sales.. you have to cater to this group.. there's no way around it, they have the numbers

come to the issue today with sf.. sf imo isn't op as I see many things in the game op now.. you look at all the builds used to solo areas then maybe.. but pve/luxon skills and hero's made this game pretty much a joke to beat.. you don't need att points to make them work either.. then we had cons introduced.. you might as well be in godmode with a conset up.. there's a lot of op in this game nowdays- if you are going to take away the top 2 used in speed farming take them all out- let's get real

the only things worth farming nowdays are in the dungeons.. guys who've played through it all don't need the money, we've had our fow armor before most of these guys even bought the first copy.. it's the fun of doing something the rest can't- I mean seriously show me a pug who can do 20 minute uw as an example XD you can't cause they don't exist.. I went back to my greedy policy of not making guides as I was starting to open up this year.. if farmers weren't so fast to post their accomplishments on the forum.. we'd probably see the clueless doing their 2 hour runs and not feeling inferior

You should stop smoking that sht. You should read reginas notes about SF rework .... i dont remember having seen "pvp" there .

little late to be caring about sf and the economic situation of GW. just sayin'

I could be wrong, but I think the point is: Skill balancing is very important in PvP, but why worry about balance in the instanced, almost single-player (nowadays) PvE portion of the game? What on earth are you hurting besides the prices of meaningless items? And don't say you can't find anyone to group with, I play a warrior and have no problem finding at least one other person to group with. Round out your group with heroes if you can't get a full group.

I'm amazed at how often Shadow Form appears as a topic. I think no skill has been discussed as much. Even close to as much.

Jealousy.

SF tends to let the farmers get insta access to all the l33t stuff, this doesn't wash with the 'pro' players.

Was the same with 55, Ursan, SF and the farming build that replaces it.

A never ending cycle of shit.

Which is what I never could understand. EVERYONE has access to all classes. EVERYONE has access to all skills. Sometimes the Kool Aid is just Kool Aid folks. Drink up and have fun.

Ursan...CoP....they had a fair few 'omfgz itz to uberpawarful bat it plox anetz!!'

No need to nerf SF. Ecto is 8.5K @ trader, buuhhhahahahaha. Now stop sucking out all the fun classic stuff!!

Never thought you viewed it that way too. I'm on the same boat.

The fair criticism (given the marketing) is that garbage like SF converts the game from skill > time to time > skill. There's no question that SF outperforms all alternatives. The question on the table is whether or not SF outperforming is desirable.

Personally, I prefer for the tricky PvE bits to be ridiculously hard. There's nothing wrong with running, as long as it takes a very high level of skill to pull it off. It's when the game becomes so easy that the masses become capable of executing these tricks that we have a problem.

But that's just one man's opinion, and there are a ton of people on this board that will disagree.

So you don't like this builds because everyone would be able to do things on their own and wouldn't need to pay (you?) for a pro run.

It removes the purpose of playing the alternatives, because they are so much less effective that there is no fun to be had in them.

Most people don't have fun intentionally playing things that they know to be ridiculously suboptimal, beyond the "lol this sucks so much!" factor. The fact that SF is out there forces this onto everyone not using it.

It's also a clear exploit of the game mechanics. No reasonable person would ever assume that Anet intended for there to be a build that bypassed 90% of the damage mechanics. As it stands now, most of the monsters in the game might as well not be there. They serve no purpose except to showcase Anet's incompetence and ability to waste time, since it would have been far more efficient to take the time they spent programming those creatures and use it to make something else.

Funny, I've never felt the need to abandon my warrior to go play a permasin. I must be the lone one eh?

I'm not going to dig it up, look in the "next skill update" thread, there's a link to the dev update that shows they did expect it to be maintainable. There's speculation that since the three skills needed are across three campaigns... well, let's just say, if you want a perma and don't have all three campaigns, you only have one choice.

There is NO build in the game (PvE only mind you) that forces you to change the way you play GW. That's an undisputable fact. There are enough guilds that specialize in every type pf PvE play, enough new players, and enough build haters that you'll never PuG alone.

Then why do you play your perma sin instead of a mending sin? Because the perma sin is better.

You can see it in high-end areas. Why don't high-end groups accept non-perma sins? Because they're inferior. Why don't they accept mesmers? Same reason. Or Dervishes? Same reason.

People, in general, don't want suboptimal things. They want the best. SF is so much better than the alternatives that it forces people to play assassins if they want the "best", instead of giving them choices that each have their own advantages and disadvantages.

I said reasonable person. If what you say is true, then clearly, Anet is not reasonable, seeing as how they spent months and months programming creatures that now do nothing except stand there looking pretty.

Let's not play the funeral music for this skill yet. Unless the major update isn't delayed any longer this skill will continue to thrive. Once it is changed ppl that is when ppl can set up the epitaphs, as well as other popular farming builds. 600 smite is one such that will be targeted. That's through what the dev said, though. Honestly, it won't be so clear until we finally get the major update, if it comes soon enough.

BS man if this game was played like it was "supposed" to be then why are they making changes pretty much every single month. Every time this game gets fun, Anet takes that fun right away. Boo Hoo shadow form is nerfed, shadow form is getting removed. Why cant anet just leave well enough alone. Think things out before they add or remove something, but anet is incapable. This game is ALOT different then when it was first released. I did'nt buy this game to have it change on me whenever bored, fat pro players gets bored and wants it to be harder. Grow some balls and deal with it the way it WAS. Or just stop playing. Shadow Form is helping GW economy, cause when someone has all the money they can carry they want to spend it which puts money back into the game. Anet is so hard up trying to stop inflation that they don't even bother having bigger money drops. That would be too simple. GW 2 will be a joke when it first comes out with 90% problems and you know anet will sit on thier stupid fat butts and nerf it for the first year. And before you say it, yes I stopped playing a stupid ever changing game, someone point out in the EULA or ToU to me where it says that this game is meant to change every other month. There is a video of me Burning all 4 of the games. Since it's not a pay to play game, really, what does Anet care?

So by your way of thinking, countries could "help the economy" by creating zillions of money and hand out on the market.

No, what would happen in GW if Shadow Form was left untouched or even simplified, is that certain people would have so much money that inflation would run skyhigh. Non-SF farmers would basically be forced to make their own SF farmers to be able to afford things themselves.

This is not true...Perma sin is never better than other chars, its is faster than other class....a things that other class can do in 10/15 min, a sin can do it in 5 min...why?because he can run trough mobs without take damage and focus on mission, instead clear all then do mission.....take SoO for example....a normal group never can pass trough mobs,kill the boss and get the key without clear area..they can try,but you know what happen if they try.So, a group of sin can pass trough and kill only bos,take the key and go to next level....they can do thing FASTER, not better...a mesmer,ele or other class can do same thing,but they cant run without take damage...think about Raptor Farm: 1st place : W/N , 2nd:Ele , 3rd:sin...Sin deal 33% less damage and he took more time to kill all...a ele can do it in less time and a War can do it less than 35/40seconds...
This is the reason why all farms (or 80% of them) include a sin...make things FASTER.

Faster=better in PvE.