Shadow Form meets the end

Well, no disagreement here, both aspects need fixing. Trying to deny there was a problem with Broken Form (or any otehr OTT farm build) and adding more pain to farming areas to attempt a fix was stupid. But equally these areas are just as Broken.

When HM came out, it looked as if ANet got this, they rebalanced RoT/DoA to make them more playable in NM, partly because they so badly over-did it in the first place. It's a shame that they didn't really stop to think any further than this, they knew their own game too well, and took council from too many top expert players so forgetting completely the masses of normal players who they were supposed to have designed the game for in the first place.

Actually Fay, i'm not sure that's the case.
'Expert' PvE'ers did'nt want cons sets, OP pve skills and imba builds in the first place. If I remember rightly the consensus was that rather than introduce gimmick upon gimmick a proper review of the skills used by mobs was far preferable.

In my mind at least, the release of DoA was a watershed moment in GW PvE. Rather than make it nice, balanced area like UW and FoW they loaded it up with cheese, and apparently ignored the advice of the players who tested it.

DoA demanded gimmick builds and was profession exclusive by design. It's only natural that the builds used to overcome this area would filter to other areas and that in itself is only a natural consequence of the skill system used in the game.

What do I mean by that? In essence Gw's skill system relies on rock-paper-scissors. Skill A will overcome Skill B and will be rendered ineffective by skill C. With GW PvE the computer always rolls scissors, so once you have found out 'rock' there is no point doing anything else if you just want to get through or farm the content as easily as possible(which most 'normal' players do).

The fundimental failing point of GW and I hope this is fixed in Gw2. is'nt that Anet did'nt listen to normal players but that they have ensured that the mobs we face always, always bring the same skill set as they always did and so the ideal counter is always a PvxWiki away.

It does'nt matter what they do to shadow form or xyz farming build, that's only elastoplast'ing over 'the computer always rolls scissors' design failings of the GW PvE environment.

Had they introduced random mobs. I.e you did'nt know what you were going to face every time you went there. Then not only would GW have lasted longer, but the likes of Shadowform,PvE skills etc abuse could never have occured.

hopefulyl we wont get a big drop in players jsut ebcause SF goes, least most people will stick around for tinwtersday and canthan new year, if not the GW2 info promised next year. least players will all be rushing to find a new solo build which will be interesting...
i suppose they might nerd obsidian tanks too? are tehy buffing any old skills in the next update?

We're not even sure they're nerfing anything. They may actually buff certain areas to combat the meta builds. Everything is speculation at the moment.

quite a few ways... each of which is some form of a tank? something like SF? QZ/SB? Bonded Mist Form or Obs Flesh mayB? I presume that each of these non-gimmmcks require at least the support of another player (bonds, echants, etc.) Cool!!! Teamwork!!! THE point is that each of those ways for "handling huge DOA mobs" requires managing the aggro to kill the mobs B4 the back line wipes. 8 man teams in HM DoA simply don't have sufficient energy or health (even with cons) to OUTLAST the HM DoA mobs, so the mobs need to be killed faster than the mobs kill. That means a nice tight ball of foes. That means a tank. SF is just a way.

But still, I'm asking around for those "quite a few ways". Cause if they were common knowledge, then why wouldn't the gaming community be using them & NOT complaining about SF????? Remember, if another proffession or skill could manage aggro the way SF does, SINS wouldn't be REQUIRED members of HM elite area teams (VS farm runs for example).

DoA is a crappy area that is just as broken as SF itself. However SF isn't just prevalent in DoA, it's in any area with a pretty shiny.
Permaform sins do not just tank, they do large amounts of DPS. Is it a problem where a team of one profession clears an entire area faster than a balanced team? Is it a problem when one person can clear an entire dungeon that would be difficult for a normal team of 8? Is it a problem when one profession can farm something with invincibility that other professions can't? It should be.

IMO... SF should have never been implemented in the game to begin with. I am not QQin the fact of using it... if its there, go ahead and use the **** skill... its ANET's fault for giving players the access/abilites to use it and abuse it. No different then RR TBH. But what I am saying is that the skill should have never been implemented into the game. A Semi-God Mode skill that prevents 90% (est) skills in the game and can be upkept is broken. I am cool with 600/Smites and 55 because the number of skills to do these builds takes up about 75% of a bar (or 2 bars for 600/Smite) to run and they still have several weaknesses. SF only takes 25% of a bar to run... allowing a lot of room for other things. So I would not mind an end to the SF madness. The skill is broken and should not have been introduced into the game in the first place. But until Dec 17th (my guess for the update) abuse the heck out of it. I am not sure why ANET is threating other farming builds on top of SF... but thats for another thread.

Neither should lvl 30 monsters with 300dmg per hit, environmental effect, crazy quests that can insta-wipe the group just because of grabbing it at the wrong time, defending NPC that doesn't even show up on the list, quest that literally requires a super tank on one side (4 horsemen), etc.

(All for 2 ectos after 3 hours of work with a "balanced" pug)

Nah they wont , lots of cheap talkers but most of them wont leave. This update is known as the SF update but i guess some other stuff will be there.

Did people look at DoA lately?

Screw doa, lets talk about class-related design in general and mesmers particulary.

Hardmode with double skill activation times and half recharge screwed up pretty much any crowd controll other than dazing enemies, knockdownlocking em or simply raw dps.

Not even talking about prophecies bosses with their half hex durations under HM boosts ...

This is pretty much middle finger for mesmers, the one case they would be most usefull they also get gimped.

And there were assassins and afflicted mobs issue...

DoA was nto first case, it was first case it trully went out of controll and you got "screw you, physicals" status effect.

Leaving DoA =\= Leaving the game fyi ...

For me it basically would. I pretty much log in, wait for doa to form, and chat with friends list in between runs. It's the only reasonably efficient way to make cash while playing with guildies.

And call me selfish, but I've accomplished everything I wanted in terms of titles, and clearing content on my own. All I want to do now is make money to buy shiny things. Is that so bad?

I never had much issue in HM playing mesmer and was LV,LG before pve skills/cons sets etc came out. I think CoP came out about 2-3 weeks after I was done.

I think it came down to the effort required. I had about ten hard mode vanquishing builds I used and developed. For me a lot of the fun of HM was adapting a build to suit the area.

I accept many players don't want to think about the builds they use and just want to zap and go which brings us back on topic.

The class system is not a weakness of GW imho. It's the way the pve mobs carry the same set of skills as they ever have thats the issue. The whole Shadowform/gimick/solo farming thing relies on the fact that people know what they are going to face and can so build for it. Professions don't really come into it, unless that profession can run <insert fotm>-way

Remember when COP-way was all the fad, mesmers were wanted everwhere, when that got nerfed so rits came to the fore, before that it was monks etc etc. If you did'nt know what sort of skills a mob use you'd take a lot more of a balanced team to be able to deal with it.

Actually, that would be a fun idea. Before you zone in, the server takes a look at your skill set and adjusts the ones of the mobs you'll be facing accordingly

Let me put it this way. You know something must be broken when a loyal gamer takes 2 to 5 years of honest hard work to get gwamm; where as a newcomer is able to max gwamm and acumulate a full inventory of ectos by just running 1 build over a period of 3 to 6 months.

Hell; come to think of it I might just buy GW2 4 years afther release (at 50% the original cost) and still endup having MORE of everything!

seems to be a long meeting

I think the right answer is : Did GW emptied after teh Ursan Nerf?

DoA is awesome ^^, only if you have a good group tough.
What exactly do you mean with the ursan nerf Steps. I can't remember that one

Honestly, the bolded part there is the best idea I've ever heard for balancing PvE. I want this. Now.

...Unfortunately, the amount of effort this would take makes it unfeasible given that Anet isn't making any more money off this puppy.

Still, this is definitely something they should explore for GW2, if they aren't already.

Either you're trolling or you're too new to the game to have seen it. Seeing your join date I guess you're too young (game-wise, not real-life-wise).

Basically, when GWEN came out, a certain skill (Ursan Blessing) was introduced. Let's just say it is the only skill that generated as much hate as SF. ANn GW has had A LOT of (remembered-as-)overpowered skills (or build) in it's history.

Basically it packs so much damage mitigation (armor/hp/KD/weakness) that a team could pack a full conset, grab 2 monks to spam heals and the rest in UBs. In theory, any class could use it. In pratice, it promoted so much rank-discrimination and the fact that para/warrior/necros had an advantage that it was at long last made unusable as full team. The link is one of the few pages on the wikis that keep an history of the nerf (the fact that there's only 1, might explain it).

I still remember logging in one of the major pugging point and seeing both cries and joy in general chat! That was a seriously fun day!
(edited for spelling)