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Originally Posted by IrishX
Faster=better in PvE.
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Shadow Form meets the end
Mcsnake85
IrishX
If faster=better, and perma sins are the fastest, then they are the best. That means everything else is not the best, therefore inferior.
Mcsnake85
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Originally Posted by IrishX
If faster=better, and perma sins are the fastest, then they are the best. That means everything else is not the best, therefore inferior.
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Agar
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Originally Posted by Mustache Mayhem
what I loved about this game from the beginning was the ability to make builds that could solo areas.. if you go back to 2005 we had the 55 bond monk- which was op as it doesn't even need upkeep.. they nerfed it and we had to start using ps instead (whats ironic is it's possible to do this again nowdays)
so alot of peeps started using the 55 and necro combo to farm the uw after the bond nerf.. I just farmed it solo same as before with a pretty good time.. then they put in the nightmares.. people cried XD.. farmed it solo same as before just wanded the little guys (ecto was going for around 14k these days).. my ritualist was doing some pretty sweet farms like all the oni in rheas crater and in factions, the deep used to have chests right at the beginning after you opened up the first room.. solo rit I got sooo many zodiac weapons before they moved the chests up.. uw I eventually switched to elem as it was alot faster drokars runs took a bit of talent to get down there before nightfall.. fun runs especially then you got a full bus.. there was even a running guild that charged peeps to teach them the run.. thought that was going too far! there were scandals early in gw also.. like who can forget when the trader was selling ectos for less than it was buying them back XD alot of peeps got rich that day- and it was never rolled back running missions solo was another challenge that was pretty fun pre-nightfall.. SF sins wasn't even used back then, actually alot of people deleted their sins- you ran on a solo warrior usually (thirsty river and elonas) or (like hells) a elem and henches when nightfall came out there was some super skills available to all classes.. as a farmer I had pretty much done it all at that point.. sorrows furnace solo's with a balth warrior (pre-scatter) -=] ranger solo farmed alot of bosses that dropped greens in both proph and factions.. these weren't things the average peanuthead was doing and was very profitable.. guys like rachtoh made guides on farming spiders for shards in fow solo.. that was pretty ingeniuous.. there was alot of fun in finding ways to solo elite areas of the game this time was great for farmers.. then nightfall introduced heros, I can see why they did this, the console crowd was starting to pour in.. your average guy was having trouble using henchmen only to get through the content (I don't see how but that was the complaint at the time).. this is responsible for what we see today imo.. I actually quit for a long time and didn't even come back till beginning of this year I came back and saw shockingly there was blanket statements on what sucked and what worked.. same lot of guys who run their mouth but they don't actually do anything they talk about.. wiki is to blame for alot of this I think.. peeps instead of thinking for themselves like we used to- they go to the wiki and that's the extent to what they know about the game this is the majority of guildwars outside of PVP I believe- the community has always been bad, just ask gaiyle about what happened in shang jea over that one holiday years back on factions release- I knew there were braindead people playing the game but to have them all in one district was funny as hell.. if your anet and you want sales.. you have to cater to this group.. there's no way around it, they have the numbers come to the issue today with sf.. sf imo isn't op as I see many things in the game op now.. you look at all the builds used to solo areas then maybe.. but pve/luxon skills and hero's made this game pretty much a joke to beat.. you don't need att points to make them work either.. then we had cons introduced.. you might as well be in godmode with a conset up.. there's a lot of op in this game nowdays- if you are going to take away the top 2 used in speed farming take them all out- let's get real the only things worth farming nowdays are in the dungeons.. guys who've played through it all don't need the money, we've had our fow armor before most of these guys even bought the first copy.. it's the fun of doing something the rest can't- I mean seriously show me a pug who can do 20 minute uw as an example XD you can't cause they don't exist.. I went back to my greedy policy of not making guides as I was starting to open up this year.. if farmers weren't so fast to post their accomplishments on the forum.. we'd probably see the clueless doing their 2 hour runs and not feeling inferior |
Great post, havent seen one of these for a while...
reaper with no name
GW is not a solo game. It is a team game. Areas were designed with the intention that it would require a full team to get through it. If you can do it with one, then that is by definition overpowered and broken.
And anyone who seriously thinks that consets and heros are more overpowered than SF needs to check into a mental institution.
And anyone who seriously thinks that consets and heros are more overpowered than SF needs to check into a mental institution.
Atlantis29
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
GW is not a solo game. It is a team game. Areas were designed with the intention that it would require a full team to get through it. If you can do it with one, then that is by definition overpowered and broken.
And anyone who seriously thinks that consets and heros are more overpowered than SF needs to check into a mental institution. |
empty towns = no people to team with = H/H = might as well just solo it
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
GW is not a solo game. It is a team game. Areas were designed with the intention that it would require a full team to get through it. If you can do it with one, then that is by definition overpowered and broken.
And anyone who seriously thinks that consets and heros are more overpowered than SF needs to check into a mental institution. |
Consets also help obviously, giving unstrippable buffs party wide, allowing otherwise underpowered teams to succeed, or good teams to steamroll most areas.
The FACT that between PvE skills, consets, and customizable heros allows any PC character to steamroll nearly any area with no help from other players makes those issues much more powerful and flexible than SF. SF allows one or two base classes to "perma" which is good for farming feathers and greens.
But to do most of the end-game content requires a full party of players, of which only one or two sins are ever needed, usually as non damaging tanks and snarers.
The real problem which anyone with a brain can tell is static mobs/skillsets, and poor reward/time ratios in most if not all content. Mixed with the problem that most of the game is dead, you'll never hear "Surmia Run" unless its a noob or Xunlai mission.
ANet may nerf SF and soon, but its not the problem. Anyone who seriously thinks SF is more of a problem than OP PvE skills, static and unchanging mobs/areas, poor reward/time ratios, consets and more needs to have their head examined.
own age myname
I'm really hoping SF doesn't die. It's not like you don't team with people anymore because of SF. Sure, SF is OPed, but it's fun to use.
BrianB9663
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Originally Posted by Bristlebane
So by your way of thinking, countries could "help the economy" by creating zillions of money and hand out on the market.
No, what would happen in GW if Shadow Form was left untouched or even simplified, is that certain people would have so much money that inflation would run skyhigh. Non-SF farmers would basically be forced to make their own SF farmers to be able to afford things themselves. |
reaper with no name
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
GW has become a solo game, with a huge majority of areas being ghost towns. ANet isn't stupid, they know as the game gets older and players move away, the remaining players will have less options for party play, hence heros and such.
Consets also help obviously, giving unstrippable buffs party wide, allowing otherwise underpowered teams to succeed, or good teams to steamroll most areas. The FACT that between PvE skills, consets, and customizable heros allows any PC character to steamroll nearly any area with no help from other players makes those issues much more powerful and flexible than SF. SF allows one or two base classes to "perma" which is good for farming feathers and greens. But to do most of the end-game content requires a full party of players, of which only one or two sins are ever needed, usually as non damaging tanks and snarers. The real problem which anyone with a brain can tell is static mobs/skillsets, and poor reward/time ratios in most if not all content. Mixed with the problem that most of the game is dead, you'll never hear "Surmia Run" unless its a noob or Xunlai mission. ANet may nerf SF and soon, but its not the problem. Anyone who seriously thinks SF is more of a problem than OP PvE skills, static and unchanging mobs/areas, poor reward/time ratios, consets and more needs to have their head examined. |
However, soloing an area is a problem, because the game was not intended to be played this way. The reason GW is a great game is because of the team aspect of it. SF removes this entirely in most areas of the game, as well as nearly all of damage mechanics in the game, which effectively removes the monsters, and so on and so forth. It snowballs and snowballs and snowballs. And there is really not much of a way to deal with this except to nerf the skill itself.
Static mobs breed gimmicks, yes. Is this a problem? Well, most players here would seem to think so. But some don't (I myself am neutral on that issue). And even if it is a problem, it's certainly nowhere near the size of SF. SF is the ultimate gimmick; a gimmick that is so powerful, pervasive, and versatile, that it would be able to beat even unpredictable mobs most of the time.
Overpowered PvE skills are both a problem and a necessary evil, because due to the way the game is currently set up, some classes need them just to have a place in PvE at all (see Paragons and Mesmers). To remove them now would create even more problems than they solve (though hypothetically, if you did do that and then solved the resulting balance issues, the game would indeed be better than it is now).
All consets do is make players more powerful by a certain amount. However, the effect is uniform, so it's not nearly as much of a problem as some things. It doesn't effect class balance, for example. However, I think it's clear that we have different priorities when it comes to the game (for me, class balance is at the top, with everything else a very distant second).
Yelling @ Cats
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
All consets do is make players more powerful by a certain amount. However, the effect is uniform, so it's not nearly as much of a problem as some things. It doesn't effect class balance, for example. However, I think it's clear that we have different priorities when it comes to the game (for me, class balance is at the top, with everything else a very distant second).
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For example...Weapon of Quickening. Not the greatest elite in the game, but is rendered absolutely useless in any sense of the word by consets.
Consets also render Superior Absorption runes obsolete since the 5 damage reduction overrides it.
Small, but significant.
Lord Chris Bravo
Good riddance to SF if i may say so myself ... annoying skill .. yes it's usefull but it just made everything practically worthless and it also made everything so solo-able. In my opinion i don't know how many people agree with me here but i think playing a game is about the community feel and playing with other people, last thing i want to do whenever i play a game is sit down and play on my own. It just kills my liking for any game
Mcsnake85
(First of all sorry for my bad english, i try write better as i can)
I think that everyone need a choice...
Play in team is cool, but if i want play alone no one must say "no you cant"...
SF need to be nerf?Ok agree...but give me a Fireball that can cause a lot of damage and a way to take enemies down.."GOD MODE" is necessary if THEY DONT GIVE US skill to fight,if they give us good skill to deal massive damage no one need SF to play, all take sf because all skills dont deal damage.
Take for example Tombs...Dryders deal me 180 damage with a fireball,that mean they need 3/4 fireball to kill a player with 600 hp...try to cast a fireball to a dryder : you can deal at max 100 damage and im sure their hp are not 600.
My point of view is simple : no one cry for SF if you can take down a mob in 3/4 skills like they do with you (FOR NM...In HM its a different thing)...
I dont understand what wrong with GW...Mobs are stronger even in NM,sometimes you cant face 1 vs 1 because thee kill you...if ppl scam you, they ban for weeks and dont give back items, skills SUCKS and those that work good risk to be nerfed...sometimes do do thing you need help to do things, and if ppl dont help you you are F****D because you cant do all alone...Heroes suck hard and discord cant resolve all your problems...
Really guyz,this is so sad...if they want nerf SF who care?BUT GIVE US SOME DAMAGE SKILLS...
I think that everyone need a choice...
Play in team is cool, but if i want play alone no one must say "no you cant"...
SF need to be nerf?Ok agree...but give me a Fireball that can cause a lot of damage and a way to take enemies down.."GOD MODE" is necessary if THEY DONT GIVE US skill to fight,if they give us good skill to deal massive damage no one need SF to play, all take sf because all skills dont deal damage.
Take for example Tombs...Dryders deal me 180 damage with a fireball,that mean they need 3/4 fireball to kill a player with 600 hp...try to cast a fireball to a dryder : you can deal at max 100 damage and im sure their hp are not 600.
My point of view is simple : no one cry for SF if you can take down a mob in 3/4 skills like they do with you (FOR NM...In HM its a different thing)...
I dont understand what wrong with GW...Mobs are stronger even in NM,sometimes you cant face 1 vs 1 because thee kill you...if ppl scam you, they ban for weeks and dont give back items, skills SUCKS and those that work good risk to be nerfed...sometimes do do thing you need help to do things, and if ppl dont help you you are F****D because you cant do all alone...Heroes suck hard and discord cant resolve all your problems...
Really guyz,this is so sad...if they want nerf SF who care?BUT GIVE US SOME DAMAGE SKILLS...
Raiku
Bring back my Ursan!
I miss going in a team of 8 Ursans and just steamrolling a area. It brought a lot a people together :*(
The only people left out were people who didn't have Eotn. Now people are crying about Shadowform :\
I miss going in a team of 8 Ursans and just steamrolling a area. It brought a lot a people together :*(
The only people left out were people who didn't have Eotn. Now people are crying about Shadowform :\
enter_the_zone
SF can solo a lot, but it can't solo everything, and for most non-farming content it's actually slower than a decent team build.
A lot of the QQ about SF stems from exclusively Sin teams, with each sin soloing a specific part of an area. This is primarily UW and FoW. As far as I can see, anything which gets people to team together is surely a good thing in GW now, even if they all have to be sins.
And lets get one thing straight... I suck as a perma, I can't even reach the Chaos plains, let alone kill anything once I get there. I don't use perma for much, and I've made more money and gold unids in a week MoP bombing raptors than I ever have as a perma. Mainly, because I suck as a perma, but also because it can be really boring, and I can't be bothered with it.
Ramblings over, Permas have been in the game for so long now that it's stupid to remove them. The same is true for 600, though that's even more stupid because that does take more skill than perma and has been around even longer. But, DTSC means you can max Kurzick in a reasonable amount of time, so 600 has to go.
Because, as seems to be Anet policy, anything a bit fun must be mercilessly nerfed into obscurity. Bye bye XTH, bye bye Ursan (and about 50 other things I can't remember right now), bye bye perma, bye bye 600, bye bye players, bye bye GW.
GG QQers, GG Live Team.. objective achieved, switching servers to hosting Aion and GW2
A lot of the QQ about SF stems from exclusively Sin teams, with each sin soloing a specific part of an area. This is primarily UW and FoW. As far as I can see, anything which gets people to team together is surely a good thing in GW now, even if they all have to be sins.
And lets get one thing straight... I suck as a perma, I can't even reach the Chaos plains, let alone kill anything once I get there. I don't use perma for much, and I've made more money and gold unids in a week MoP bombing raptors than I ever have as a perma. Mainly, because I suck as a perma, but also because it can be really boring, and I can't be bothered with it.
Ramblings over, Permas have been in the game for so long now that it's stupid to remove them. The same is true for 600, though that's even more stupid because that does take more skill than perma and has been around even longer. But, DTSC means you can max Kurzick in a reasonable amount of time, so 600 has to go.
Because, as seems to be Anet policy, anything a bit fun must be mercilessly nerfed into obscurity. Bye bye XTH, bye bye Ursan (and about 50 other things I can't remember right now), bye bye perma, bye bye 600, bye bye players, bye bye GW.
GG QQers, GG Live Team.. objective achieved, switching servers to hosting Aion and GW2
Deatgs Corrupter
the sf nerf is imminent who really cares just try playing with a chance of failure? and don't give me bs about sf sometimes failing in dayway because what i mean is that if used properly there is no chance of failure.
point about ToPK is that it is supposed to be hard... in those "elite areas" a monk actually heals you and generally you have a designated tank and a bonder so damage is reduced to like 70 and then ur monk heals you, if u r a wammo tank then this can be brought down easily and if u just use ele or warrior tank with obsi flesh then... oh wow no spells affect you so its /dance
but if u want to make sure they dont use skills the it is shadowform.
the thing with shadow form is that i love it but at the same time have no clue as to why it is the game. everyone always says it destroyed the game and pugs. nightfall destroyed the game with its heroes. expansion into 3 full campaigns destroyed the game, announcement of gw2 and scrapping of 6 monthly expansions destroyed the game.... it goes on and on.
however it does allows hard areas to be done very quickly and tht sucks, but lets not forget this hasn't inflated the economy as much as other things *cough* armbrace dupe *cough*
at the end of the day it is arenanets game and this whole thread is premature as we have no idea what they will do to sf.
also dont rage on regina when it happens because she can only relate our fellings to anet not make changes.
point about ToPK is that it is supposed to be hard... in those "elite areas" a monk actually heals you and generally you have a designated tank and a bonder so damage is reduced to like 70 and then ur monk heals you, if u r a wammo tank then this can be brought down easily and if u just use ele or warrior tank with obsi flesh then... oh wow no spells affect you so its /dance
but if u want to make sure they dont use skills the it is shadowform.
the thing with shadow form is that i love it but at the same time have no clue as to why it is the game. everyone always says it destroyed the game and pugs. nightfall destroyed the game with its heroes. expansion into 3 full campaigns destroyed the game, announcement of gw2 and scrapping of 6 monthly expansions destroyed the game.... it goes on and on.
however it does allows hard areas to be done very quickly and tht sucks, but lets not forget this hasn't inflated the economy as much as other things *cough* armbrace dupe *cough*
at the end of the day it is arenanets game and this whole thread is premature as we have no idea what they will do to sf.
also dont rage on regina when it happens because she can only relate our fellings to anet not make changes.
own age myname
The main thing I'm going to miss is FoWSC, because it's one of the few times in the game that I actually PUG.
chessyang
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Originally Posted by Mustache Mayhem
guys like rachtoh made guides on farming spiders for shards in fow solo.. that was pretty ingeniuous.. there was alot of fun in finding ways to solo elite areas of the game
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Good read Mustache. thank you for the post. I miss those old days to. but you know with each turn of skill things change ppl come and go and will find a new build.
I'm a solo player and when Diablo 3 comes out and even GW2 i'll go still go Solo. it's just my style and the way i want to play these game.
Whatever happens to Shadow Form will pass and we will "recall the good old days of Solo'ing dungeons and UW.. etc.."
Tom Swift
SF will pass, and probably should.
But absolutely nothing will turn this game back into a multiplayer game. It is now and will be until the end a solo game with occasional multiplayer aspects.
Accept it. Live with it.
But absolutely nothing will turn this game back into a multiplayer game. It is now and will be until the end a solo game with occasional multiplayer aspects.
Accept it. Live with it.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by Tom Swift
SF will pass, and probably should.
But absolutely nothing will turn this game back into a multiplayer game. It is now and will be until the end a solo game with occasional multiplayer aspects. Accept it. Live with it. |
If ANet accepts the notion that new blood in GW is very scarce, and that the game has rapidly devolved into a solo player game (through consets, heroes and such), then removing options in the PvE environment that allow for solo play (either the PC by him or herself for farming purposes, or as the single player in a hero/hench party) will do nothing but harm the game's current userbase, and possibly detract new players from sticking with the game.
If on the other hand ANet is blindly devoted to denying the obvious, that GW1 has passed its prime, then I can see why they'd continue to try to "balance" PvE, which is a fool's errand from the get go. Their concept of balance has always been to make each character equally fast at killing, but since several of the classes don't function that way, their efforts were doomed from the start.
Personally, I don't really care what happens anymore. With the bugs that seem to hit every "event" apparent, and needing to do a "redux" each time, it shows that whoever is left actually working on GW1 is severely out of their league. This game has rapidly devolved from the high concept it began with, into something akin to SWG or Runescape.
What ANet should focus on is player retention and making the game fun for everyone. That requires acknowledging the current state of play that they created, by seeing the effects consets and customizable heroes have had on player parties, and the fact that H/H is the dominant form of PvE now.
If they really want to make it fun and interesting, they should do what their parent game, Diablo 2 did. Randomize everything, allow ectos to drop from regular spawns in various areas of ascalon, etc.
MisterB
Guild Wars PvE was designed as a multiplayer or single player game: read the box.
ANet doesn't care if players can enter an area solo and kill things, but they take steps when farming produces rewards that far exceed normal play. When they take those steps seems to be a matter of degree of efficiency. If a farm is 10x more profitable or more(This number is pulled out of nowhere.), they take steps to slow it down, or they try to.
Arguing that solo farming is not how the game is designed is irrelevant. If ANet really wanted to stop it, they could require fixed party size. That has not happened, because they don't care if you farm.
ANet doesn't care if players can enter an area solo and kill things, but they take steps when farming produces rewards that far exceed normal play. When they take those steps seems to be a matter of degree of efficiency. If a farm is 10x more profitable or more(This number is pulled out of nowhere.), they take steps to slow it down, or they try to.
Arguing that solo farming is not how the game is designed is irrelevant. If ANet really wanted to stop it, they could require fixed party size. That has not happened, because they don't care if you farm.
Trip555
The 600/Perma nerf is now overdue for 3 month.
I don't believe in it.
Most likely A-Net found out that Foundry is only doable at decent failrates as a Trio and you cannot do Horseman without a heavy tank.
I don't believe in it.
Most likely A-Net found out that Foundry is only doable at decent failrates as a Trio and you cannot do Horseman without a heavy tank.
toocooltang
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Originally Posted by Trip555
The 600/Perma nerf is now overdue for 3 month.
I don't believe in it. Most likely A-Net found out that Foundry is only doable at decent failrates as a Trio and you cannot do Horseman without a heavy tank. |
I am pretty sure the reaper is a good tank, and foundry is easily done in 20 minutes in Hm with out perma sins
Trinity Fire Angel
it would be nice if they could allow henchies in ToA. Then it would be possible to do UW or FoW solo (not as a perma) but to not have to look for a PUG. Cause really, how many people out there have had the experience of a really bad PUG before?
Actually, there is a second entrance to UW that is actually in the environment and not from an outpost. I must try to see if i can take henchies in with me. I only wish there was a FoW entrance in the environment (or is there?). At least that would allow us to take henchies along with a few heros.
Come to think of it... some henchies for DoA would be nice too. Nothing sucks more than DoA. Even Codex arena has more people than DoA in all the districts combined.. now that is sad.
EDIT:
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Not that i have ever done UW before (never any balanced PUG's) but i just realised that it can;t be done solo because of that quest where you need a tank in another area. One reason why Obsidian Flesh needs to stay is for some of the quests in FoW am i right? Earth Tanks? At least with an earth tank, its not a "speed" clear. LOL
this is where they went wrong with Shadow Form. no dmg from anything at all except AoE.... every other spell or melee protection has its downside. I see no downside to Perma-sin.
Actually, there is a second entrance to UW that is actually in the environment and not from an outpost. I must try to see if i can take henchies in with me. I only wish there was a FoW entrance in the environment (or is there?). At least that would allow us to take henchies along with a few heros.
Come to think of it... some henchies for DoA would be nice too. Nothing sucks more than DoA. Even Codex arena has more people than DoA in all the districts combined.. now that is sad.
EDIT:
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Not that i have ever done UW before (never any balanced PUG's) but i just realised that it can;t be done solo because of that quest where you need a tank in another area. One reason why Obsidian Flesh needs to stay is for some of the quests in FoW am i right? Earth Tanks? At least with an earth tank, its not a "speed" clear. LOL
this is where they went wrong with Shadow Form. no dmg from anything at all except AoE.... every other spell or melee protection has its downside. I see no downside to Perma-sin.
Reformed
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Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel
snip
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FyrFytr998
Okay, CNY is done. Where's the nerfs? I have a sneaky suspicion that ANET is gonna drop a post soon saying that the update is being pushed back yet again.
ThomOfDeath
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Originally Posted by FyrFytr998
Okay, CNY is done. Where's the nerfs? I have a sneaky suspicion that ANET is gonna drop a post soon saying that the update is being pushed back yet again.
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reaper with no name
Quote:
Do monsters have more armor, more HP, more energy, faster spellcasting, etc? Certainly. But they also have terrible builds full of useless skills, exploitable AI, and almost no synergy with one another. They also don't have the advantage of being able to predict what they're going to go up against and plan their builds accordingly. To top it all off, you only have to beat the monsters once to "win". They don't get that advantage.
For one moment, imagine what it would be like if you had to play as a monster (with their AI and builds, of course):
You've got over a thousand HP, and 100 armor. You're 10 levels above the players, so you get easy crits while they struggle to get even one. You see a squishy monk, which, because it is squishy, you are compelled to attack, regardless of whether or not it is the smart thing to do. You swing your mighty hammer, fully expecting to deal 100+ damage, and...
It's blocked. Crap, he's got aegis up. You swing again. Nope. It's still up.
About 10 swings later (half of which were blocked, and half of which were redbarred to meaninglessness), aegis runs out. "Awesome," you think. "Now I'll show him." Then you attack.
50 damage. Looks like he had protective spirit up.
And that's when you notice that in the time you wasted on the monk, your entire party was wiped out. Your party didn't have prot. Or even monks, for that matter.
Then the attention of the players turns to you...
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Originally Posted by enter_the_zone
Because, as seems to be Anet policy, anything a bit fun must be mercilessly nerfed into obscurity. Bye bye XTH, bye bye Ursan (and about 50 other things I can't remember right now), bye bye perma, bye bye 600, bye bye players, bye bye GW.
GG QQers, GG Live Team.. objective achieved, switching servers to hosting Aion and GW2 |
Exploits are not the only thing in the game that is fun. In fact (as in every game), exploits are believed to reduce fun, because they remove the alternatives as an effective tactic.
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
But that doesn't make any sense.
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Once again, solo play != soloing areas. That's why they made heroes.
Also, making the game more (or leaving it as) exploitable is counterproductive to player retention. There are two core groups forming GW's playerbase. The first is people who play it because it's free (very few of these people will leave because an exploit was fixed). The second is people who, well, liked the game. This is the group that desires balance and hates grind. The way to keep the former group is to keep the game free. Check. To keep the latter group means (at the very least) trying to prevent the game from becoming more broken.
Like it or not, GW affects (and will continue to affect) people's perceptions of GW2. If Anet cannot do a good job with GW, it makes people not want to buy GW2. Being able to solo areas while invulnerable to almost everything monsters can throw at you makes Anet look incompetent, and causes people to question whether or not GW2 will be worth playing, since it'll "just be another meaningless farmfest". The majority of people don't like playing broken games. If they did, the monsters in every FPS wouldn't shoot back, and failure would be impossible.
By allowing exploits to remain, Anet alienates one of it's two core demographics, and risks damaging GW2's chances of success.
Kaleban
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Originally Posted by reaper with no name
Once again, solo play != soloing areas. That's why they made heroes.
Also, making the game more (or leaving it as) exploitable is counterproductive to player retention. There are two core groups forming GW's playerbase. The first is people who play it because it's free (very few of these people will leave because an exploit was fixed). The second is people who, well, liked the game. This is the group that desires balance and hates grind. The way to keep the former group is to keep the game free. Check. To keep the latter group means (at the very least) trying to prevent the game from becoming more broken. Like it or not, GW affects (and will continue to affect) people's perceptions of GW2. If Anet cannot do a good job with GW, it makes people not want to buy GW2. Being able to solo areas while invulnerable to almost everything monsters can throw at you makes Anet look incompetent, and causes people to question whether or not GW2 will be worth playing, since it'll "just be another meaningless farmfest". The majority of people don't like playing broken games. If they did, the monsters in every FPS wouldn't shoot back, and failure would be impossible. By allowing exploits to remain, Anet alienates one of it's two core demographics, and risks damaging GW2's chances of success. |
The problem is, how do you define a "good job?" GW was billed as a game that emphasized skill over grind, and yet, since its inception GW has steadily become more and more grindy, to the point where the game has lost its meaning.
Consider this, WoW has a level cap of what 80 now? And it takes months and months of steady play, in a vast open world with a significantly larger playerbase. The amount of content is orders of magnitude larger than GW, and is not only better maintained, but also constantly updated and changed.
Now I'm not saying I want GW to go P2P, not only would the current system not really support such a model, the game itself is nowhere near worth a monthly fee.
But the problem lies with GW's design. A level cap that can be reached in a few steady hours of play, especially Canthan, and instant maxed PvP characters means a LOT of content can be bypassed or avoided. The ease of the game means replayability is not that high, and the lack of "jobs" for the characters (not professions like crafting, but specific roles for each character to play, such as tank, off-tank, nuker, main and secondary healers etc.) forces a rut of gameplay in which everything is balanced solely around classes that focus on healing, prot and damage. No stealth system for Sins, no real way to aggro and maintain it except by position etc.
The tl;dr version is GW was poorly conceived, riding a "free to play" wave to counter the inevitable backlash against poor maintenance and content updates. On top of that, GW has been poorly maintained, with slapdash "balance" updates and poorly thought out and implemented class additions that make the game feel bloated.
Yes you have hundreds of options and combinations, but the balance and design of the game makes it so that only a very few are ever very effective, especially given the average skill level of a random PUG.
As to the "meaningless farmfest" welcome to the world of MMORPGs. After the novelty has worn off and you've leveled a couple of characters and beaten the campaigns, thats all thats left, the search for more loot. You can PvP sure, and help guildies with their PvE, but for the player who has six or seven level 20s and a couple suits of FoW, GW doesn't offer anything NEW.
I'm sure some will mention their business model and how they're poor and suffering and like little Orphan Oliver just desire a little more gruel. Those people know nothing about business, and its safe to say that ANet's business practices and long term survival don't depend on costume sales, they're not Spencer's after all. The point is, for any persistent online game, just as in business, you must expand or fail, stagnation means death. GW has been stagnating for a while now, and as an informed consumer, my decision of whether to buy GW2 doesn't hinge on one single exploitable skill out of hundreds (there are many others btw), but instead on whether ANet can make their games FUN.
A single exploit skill doesn't remove fun, what does is a lack of replayability, lack of new and interesting content, under-developed storylines that make me want to beat my head in when I read the dialogue, etc.
ANet has the potential to not only make GW2 a great game, but to also inject new life and verve into GW1 to keep and increase the loyal playerbase. Their current path seems to be absolutely counter-intuitive though, with lackluster performance with their flagship game (series), terrible customer support, terri-bad handling of PR, swiss chesse like security and a host of other issues. All of which makes Shadow Form nearly a moot issue, and its detractors seem like infants.
FyrFytr998
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Originally Posted by Kaleban
Well, first off its agreed......(Snipped)....... All of which makes Shadow Form nearly a moot issue, and its detractors seem like infants.
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Mcsnake85
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Monsters are not more powerful than players. On the contrary, players are far more powerful than monsters. Do monsters have more armor, more HP, more energy, faster spellcasting, etc? Certainly. But they also have terrible builds full of useless skills, exploitable AI, and almost no synergy with one another. They also don't have the advantage of being able to predict what they're going to go up against and plan their builds accordingly. To top it all off, you only have to beat the monsters once to "win". They don't get that advantage. For one moment, imagine what it would be like if you had to play as a monster (with their AI and builds, of course): You've got over a thousand HP, and 100 armor. You're 10 levels above the players, so you get easy crits while they struggle to get even one. You see a squishy monk, which, because it is squishy, you are compelled to attack, regardless of whether or not it is the smart thing to do. You swing your mighty hammer, fully expecting to deal 100+ damage, and... It's blocked. Crap, he's got aegis up. You swing again. Nope. It's still up. About 10 swings later (half of which were blocked, and half of which were redbarred to meaninglessness), aegis runs out. "Awesome," you think. "Now I'll show him." Then you attack. 50 damage. Looks like he had protective spirit up. And that's when you notice that in the time you wasted on the monk, your entire party was wiped out. Your party didn't have prot. Or even monks, for that matter. Then the attention of the players turns to you... |
Mobs have bad build ok,they move and do action with a limited AI (in other words they are stupid) and sometimes they kill themself...BTW they still do more damage then you,i can say triple damage.
The point is not how good are you or how good is your buil etc, the point is : you dont deal damage..
without other things in play if you and mob cast the same skill MOBS always win.Because it dont have only higher HP but higher damage and defense too,so you cant kill it..thanks god we can change skill,make a good build and solo kill something but not always is enough..
A monk as you said can do something more...a sin can do something more (with only critical build too, withou sf)..but other classes?And you think that some mobs dont have aegis or other thing to defend?
I was just compare base damage of (fireball) a skill without other things...
I have to be honest, i really dont like Shadow Form, but i use it, not always but when necessary...why?because with SF you can do a lot of farm and you are stronger than a mobs..just only because they cant hit you is a great advantage...
If they update some skill and make mobs die more easy, the first thing i do is give a kick in the a** to my sin...because NO ONE NEED God mode if you can kill MOBS IN 4/5 SKILLS....and i want to say just another thing, i dont pretend to apply this in HM, but just NM.
4thVariety
Normal Mode players REACT, Hard Mode players have to PREPARE.
In normal mode it is very easy to have one skill heal the damage of one "damage event" caused by monsters. Normal mode also gives you plenty time to react.
Hardmode does not give you the time to react to occurring damage, because by the time you enter the afteracast of a one second super-healing spell, the enemy will already have dealt his fatal second blow. AoE style to half the group if you are lucky. On top of that, your skills are most likely unable to counter the full impact the first wave of enemy attacks had on the group. To round it off, you might also get knocked down, or interrupted while providing a critical service to the continued existence of the group. WIPE.
This very inability to react, will cause all groups to create pre-emptive countermeasures. The more invincible the better. There are many many many of these invincible builds for every occasion. Shadow Form is merely the one everybody can understand. Changing it changes nothing.
In normal mode it is very easy to have one skill heal the damage of one "damage event" caused by monsters. Normal mode also gives you plenty time to react.
Hardmode does not give you the time to react to occurring damage, because by the time you enter the afteracast of a one second super-healing spell, the enemy will already have dealt his fatal second blow. AoE style to half the group if you are lucky. On top of that, your skills are most likely unable to counter the full impact the first wave of enemy attacks had on the group. To round it off, you might also get knocked down, or interrupted while providing a critical service to the continued existence of the group. WIPE.
This very inability to react, will cause all groups to create pre-emptive countermeasures. The more invincible the better. There are many many many of these invincible builds for every occasion. Shadow Form is merely the one everybody can understand. Changing it changes nothing.
Mcsnake85
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Originally Posted by 4thVariety
Normal Mode players REACT, Hard Mode players have to PREPARE.
In normal mode it is very easy to have one skill heal the damage of one "damage event" caused by monsters. Normal mode also gives you plenty time to react. Hardmode does not give you the time to react to occurring damage, because by the time you enter the afteracast of a one second super-healing spell, the enemy will already have dealt his fatal second blow. AoE style to half the group if you are lucky. On top of that, your skills are most likely unable to counter the full impact the first wave of enemy attacks had on the group. To round it off, you might also get knocked down, or interrupted while providing a critical service to the continued existence of the group. WIPE. This very inability to react, will cause all groups to create pre-emptive countermeasures. The more invincible the better. There are many many many of these invincible builds for every occasion. Shadow Form is merely the one everybody can understand. Changing it changes nothing. |
I agree HM must be HARD (lol its Hard Mode =P) but i really feel bad when i need ask help to do crap mission..good thing is that you have heroes,because without them you FORCED to ask help,so you can still do things in NM (not all btw).
So the real problem is not SF like 99% of player think, but mobs & damage...without SF but with good damage skills that (as i said 3 times) can kill mobs in 4/5 skills the game will be better...
I Have a question now :
You prefer Shadow Form or Fireball that cause 200 damage (instead 100) ?
You prefer Shadow Form or Pure Strike that cause 100 damage (instead 30+)?
You prefer Shadow Form or Roj that cause 100 damage (instead 48+)?
Arduin
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Originally Posted by Mcsnake85
Btw you cant solo NM some things too...In all RPGS you can solo things in NM (D1,D2,Sacred,Sacred Underworld,Sacred II and a lot of others) while in HM you need help like GW..but cant kill a group of mobs without prepare a build,without SF or other similar strategies is a BAD THING.
I agree HM must be HARD (lol its Hard Mode =P) but i really feel bad when i need ask help to do crap mission..good thing is that you have heroes,because without them you FORCED to ask help,so you can still do things in NM (not all btw). So the real problem is not SF like 99% of player think, but mobs & damage...without SF but with good damage skills that (as i said 3 times) can kill mobs in 4/5 skills the game will be better... I Have a question now : You prefer Shadow Form or Fireball that cause 200 damage (instead 100) ? You prefer Shadow Form or Pure Strike that cause 100 damage (instead 30+)? You prefer Shadow Form or Roj that cause 100 damage (instead 48+)? |
If you are going to solo Tombs using SF, of course your damage pales in comparison to your foes, because you are using only 1/8th of your potential. 8 players using a 100 dmg fireball against a foe is better than 1 player using a 200 dmg fireball against a foe.
So are you seriously advocating you want Anet to buff the damage of skills, because you can't kill foes solo? Also don't forget the fireball that you want to buff to 200 dmg will also be buffed for your foes.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Mcsnake85
good thing is that you have heroes,because without them you FORCED to ask help
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Dumbing the game down to "4/5 skills to kill a mob" is a terrible idea. It's already close to this thanks to some over-efficient team builds and poor game mechanics.
No thanks. More Protective Spirit on your heroes, please.
aspi
So can this be done anytime soon? I am sick and tired of the sf form ecto hunters who outbid anyone with their stupid amount of ecto's.
Del
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Originally Posted by aspi
So can this be done anytime soon? I am sick and tired of the sf form ecto hunters who outbid anyone with their stupid amount of ecto's.
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aspi
Well I am sure that is something to bitch about.
Del
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Originally Posted by aspi
Well I am sure that is something to bitch about.
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Spookii
I sort of wonder why these people QQing about wanting to play solo...are playing a MMO.
Massive...Multiplayer(?lol)
If you want to play a solo game, go play a solo game that doesn't connect you to the internet. GuildWars is more than an interactive chat system, believe it or not. ANet's main priority is to balance the game for group play, not solo play. They just happen to understand that sometimes, getting a large group of people together is not possible. And sometimes, you don't want to play with a large group of people. Thus, we have henchies and heroes, which is quite nice imo. Actual one-man builds are possible, but they should not dominate the game. Like I said, if you want to play alone, play something else. There are much better games than GW out there for that.
Massive...Multiplayer(?lol)
If you want to play a solo game, go play a solo game that doesn't connect you to the internet. GuildWars is more than an interactive chat system, believe it or not. ANet's main priority is to balance the game for group play, not solo play. They just happen to understand that sometimes, getting a large group of people together is not possible. And sometimes, you don't want to play with a large group of people. Thus, we have henchies and heroes, which is quite nice imo. Actual one-man builds are possible, but they should not dominate the game. Like I said, if you want to play alone, play something else. There are much better games than GW out there for that.