Next Skill Balance - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 09:58 - 1081

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Look, I've tried multiple times. For some reason you don't get what I'm trying to say. These builds are scapegoats, fallguys, they are the symptoms of poor game mechanics, not the disease.

No, sorry.

The disease is imbalance and what caused it are poor game mechanics and gimmick builds alltogether.

Game mechanics are poor and allow abuses, I agree, but the existence overpowered builds MUST be addressed anyway. Fixing OP stuff is ONE thing that needs to be done. Reworking game mechanics is the other. One can't live without the other. ANet sometimes altered game mechanics to improve things (AoE scattering, for example, or enemy AI targeting lower armor and lower max health so that tanking doesn't really work), but you can't expect fundamental turnarounds in a day.

If it was just about game mechanics, pretty much every profession would be able to run through anything, which is not the case. SF would be broken even if mobs wouldn't ball up around the perma-tank, because it's blanket protection against 99% of the damage sources in game.

Mercesa

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Aug 2009

Netherlands

N/

15 Jan 2010 at 10:07 - 1082

A-net already showed that they don't care anymore, Just look at the mess they have left. They are not a company on a deadline so why should they care ?

YunSooJin

Pyromaniac

Join Date: Aug 2005

Mo/W

15 Jan 2010 at 10:16 - 1083

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Look, I've tried multiple times. For some reason you don't get what I'm trying to say. These builds are scapegoats, fallguys, they are the symptoms of poor game mechanics, not the disease. No matter how many re-balances you try, you will keep getting builds that are overpowered. sometimes as much as SF, sometimes not as much. We've had 5 YEARS of skill rebalancing and it has NEVER stopped invincibuilds from cropping up, or "balanced" PvE. After 5 YEARS of trying the same thing, it is OBVIOUS that skill rebalancing will NEVER work!

Call me crazy or schizo...Albert Einstein once said "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results."

we know all you wanna do is abuse SF cause you just made a sin.

MisterB

Furnace Stoker

Join Date: Oct 2005

Planet Earth, Sol system, Milky Way galaxy

[ban]

W/

15 Jan 2010 at 10:40 - 1084

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

Yes but I propose they just close all threads about this and MODERATE

I think this thread makes an excellent trash filter. The best part is the moderators don't have to do anything or very little to ensure all the whining, er, complaints get directed here by those who wish to, um, express their opinion.

Coverticus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

The Zodiac Elites [TZE]

Mo/

15 Jan 2010 at 11:05 - 1085

I asked the same question about keeping this thread open for the sake of sanity on page 42:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symeon

Pretty much. We used to close SF threads when they got too long or devolved into back-and-forth quote wars, but they would always be followed by another. Now that we know a change is forthcoming, the discussion may as well be kept in this thread until it arrives.

mrvrod

Guest01

Join Date: Jul 2006

15 Jan 2010 at 11:17 - 1086

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

No, sorry.

The disease is imbalance and what caused it are poor game mechanics and gimmick builds alltogether.

Game mechanics are poor and allow abuses, I agree, but the existence overpowered builds MUST be addressed anyway. Fixing OP stuff is ONE thing that needs to be done. Reworking game mechanics is the other. One can't live without the other. ANet sometimes altered game mechanics to improve things (AoE scattering, for example, or enemy AI targeting lower armor and lower max health so that tanking doesn't really work), but you can't expect fundamental turnarounds in a day.

If it was just about game mechanics, pretty much every profession would be able to run through anything, which is not the case. SF would be broken even if mobs wouldn't ball up around the perma-tank, because it's blanket protection against 99% of the damage sources in game.

Ok, ok. So I'm wrong and you guys are completely right, enjoy your nerf. See how well it goes for you as far as fixing PvE. 5 years and counting...

Arduin

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: May 2005

The Netherlands

Limburgse Jagers [LJ]

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 11:30 - 1087

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Look, I've tried multiple times. For some reason you don't get what I'm trying to say. These builds are scapegoats, fallguys, they are the symptoms of poor game mechanics, not the disease. No matter how many re-balances you try, you will keep getting builds that are overpowered. sometimes as much as SF, sometimes not as much. We've had 5 YEARS of skill rebalancing and it has NEVER stopped invincibuilds from cropping up, or "balanced" PvE. After 5 YEARS of trying the same thing, it is OBVIOUS that skill rebalancing will NEVER work!

Okay, but we've never had 12 minute speedclears of UW either in those 5 years. And SF is solely to blame for that, because the poorly implemented UW hasn't changed much in those years. Of course, this is the most obvious manifestation of the one flaw of GW: static PvE.

The inability for Anet to keep GW balanced is one of the reasons they've abandoned GW and started on GW2. That inability is indeed the disease you are talking about. But what are the other options? A major PvE overhaul won't be possible, but nerfing glaringly overpowered skills is. GW2 will be live in ~2 years, so maybe we should encourage the Live Team to try and get a semblance of balance into this game for the next time to come.

Utopia never made it as a 4th chapter for a reason.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 11:44 - 1088

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Ok, ok. So I'm wrong and you guys are completely right, enjoy your nerf. See how well it goes for you as far as fixing PvE. 5 years and counting...

Ever heard about halfways? *rolleyes*

It's a step forward, not a cure-all solution. Cure-all solutions rarely exist. To keep up with your disease metaphor, there's no panacea for Guild Wars, but there are still a lot of fields where the game could improve and sure, one of those is improving those overly simplistic game mechanics.

Immobility doesn't take anywhere tough. The fix you're advocating is:

- Hard to implement, probably impossible now. It would mean turning the game upside down for... what? Would you really replay the game again if AI was improved to a level that the game becomes suddenly challenging again?
- Probably not felt as necessary by developers. GW works pretty much like any other RPG game, or any other online game for that matter.

So, imagine a game where foes react smartly to your actions. What would prevent people from running through the game thanks to almost-invincibility like permaSF? You'll need an incredibly smart AI to prevent gimmicks like those from working and, go figure, such an AI doesn't exist in ANY current game.

No one expects PvE to be magically fixed with a nerf. But improving game mechanics alone won't fix PvE either. Yet, there's NO REASON on Earth to keep some absurdities going.

mrvrod

Guest01

Join Date: Jul 2006

15 Jan 2010 at 11:58 - 1089

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Ever heard about halfways? *rolleyes*

It's a step forward, not a cure-all solution. Cure-all solutions rarely exist. To keep up with your disease metaphor, there's no panacea for Guild Wars, but there are still a lot of fields where the game could improve and sure, one of those is improving those overly simplistic game mechanics.

Immobility doesn't take anywhere tough. The fix you're advocating is:

- Hard to implement, probably impossible now. It would mean turning the game upside down for... what? Would you really replay the game again if AI was improved to a level that the game becomes suddenly challenging again?
- Probably not felt as necessary by developers. GW works pretty much like any other RPG game, or any other online game for that matter.

So, imagine a game where foes react smartly to your actions. What would prevent people from running through the game thanks to almost-invincibility like permaSF? You'll need an incredibly smart AI to prevent gimmicks like those from working and, go figure, such an AI doesn't exist in ANY current game.

No one expects PvE to be magically fixed with a nerf. But improving game mechanics alone won't fix PvE either. Yet, there's NO REASON on Earth to keep some absurdities going.

My point is it's not a step forward. Every nerf/buff balance fixes some things and breaks others. All you change is the name of your bane. And don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating any fix. I'm saying it's too late. Give up, throw your hands in the air, play the game the way it is, happy in the knowledge that they've learned from this and GW2 will be different. GW2, like you said, is less than 2 years out. Play in the mud, get dirty.

Maybe it's just a difference in our personalities. If you had incurable cancer, maybe you'd still go the Chemo route. Me, I'd tell the docs to f-off and enjoy the time I have left.

Popeye1906

Academy Page

Join Date: Nov 2009

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 12:42 - 1090

Why should we care about skill balancing when some of us are still getting their account stolen?

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 12:45 - 1091

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Maybe it's just a difference in our personalities. If you had incurable cancer, maybe you'd still go the Chemo route. Me, I'd tell the docs to f-off and enjoy the time I have left.

You must really love those medical metaphors

Anyway, no, I'd probably enjoy the time I have left myself.

But, heck, GW is not terminally diseased... GW by comparison is just affected by pneumonia. There's still much that can be done before its demise is inevitable.

(Geez, I can't believe I'm replying with medical metaphors myself...

)

Whatever, this doesn't quite work here. Giving up is not something I'd ever expect from a team running business. Resting on laurels or jacking in after screwing up big time are not options I'd ever consider.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 13:07 - 1092

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

You must really love those medical metaphors

Anyway, no, I'd probably enjoy the time I have left myself.

But, heck, GW is not terminally diseased... GW by comparison is just affected by pneumonia. There's still much that can be done before its demise is inevitable.

(Geez, I can't believe I'm replying with medical metaphors myself...

)

Whatever, this doesn't quite work here. Giving up is not something I'd ever expect from a team running business. Resting on laurels or jacking in after screwing up big time are not options I'd ever consider.

You're bad.

Did Prophecies PvE require skill or was it even enjoyable to play? No.

You probably think it is because you're blinded by nostalgia. But seriously, just try playing the game "normally". Use skills that were exactly the same back in Prophecies and just play. Enjoyed it? I highly doubt it. And if you do, then is there a problem, really? Just play the game how you should play it if that makes you happy!

The Prophecies era had good balance relatively. So logically, the problem with PvE isn't balance, it's the fact that AI sucks balls and that monster skill bars are bad. The way to fix PvE would be to improve their bars THEN improve AI and only THEN balance the skills. Balancing skills is actually the least important problem with PvE currently.

Even if you improve PvE, no matter how much, PvP will always be better because it suffers neither from AI problems (henchmen aside, they shouldn't exist) nor bad bars (quite simply because players are smart enough to adapt to skill changes and will always run good bars).

The only thing needed to improve PvP is balance. PvE is far, far, FAR harder to fix. It's theoretically possible, of course, if it wasn't there wouldn't be any good singleplayer games around. The problem, however, is that fixing PvE would take about as much time as completely designing a new game.

Guess what Anet is doing?

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 13:28 - 1093

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

You're bad.

So?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

The Prophecies era had good balance relatively. So logically, the problem with PvE isn't balance, it's the fact that AI sucks balls and that monster skill bars are bad.

PART of the problem. Even if AI was better and monster skill bars were better, gimmicks would exist. Infact...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Even if you improve PvE, no matter how much, PvP will always be better because it suffers neither from AI problems (henchmen aside, they shouldn't exist) nor bad bars (quite simply because players are smart enough to adapt to skill changes and will always run good bars).

... gimmicks exist in PvP as well - metagame dominated by gimmicks is actually more a PvP problem than a PvE problem, isn't it? - , even if the enemies you face are smarter (which is not always the case) and run better bars (which is rarely the case). Duh.

BTW, a lot of players I've met are so bad that made me miss the demented AI...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Guess what Anet is doing?

According to developers, Anet is reworking Shadow Form now while developing GW2 for future release. My point exactly...

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 13:38 - 1094

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So?

PART of the problem. Even if AI was better and monster skill bars were better, gimmicks would exist. Infact...

... gimmicks exist in PvP as well - metagame dominated by gimmicks is actually more a PvP problem than a PvE problem, isn't it? - , even if the enemies you face are smarter (which is not always the case) and run better bars (which is rarely the case). Duh.

BTW, a lot of players I've met are so bad that made me miss the demented AI...

According to developers, Anet is reworking Shadow Form now while developing GW2 for future release. My point exactly...

Gimmicks are less of a problem in PvE than they are in PvP. This is because you are not forced to use them there while in PvP you are, unless you like losing. This actually re-inforces my point. PvE gimmicks would still exist, may be true, but playing PvE properly wouldn't gimp you.

Did PvP suck in the Prophecies era? No, it rocked. Did PvE suck in the Prophecies era? About as much as it does now. Conclusion? Balancing skills in PvE is pointless, balancing skills in PvP is mandatory.

Concerning bad players, stop playing RA/AB then. But even there, players that are dumber than AI are rare. Very rare.

FrostymcPewPew

Pre-Searing Cadet

Join Date: Oct 2009

E/Rt

15 Jan 2010 at 13:54 - 1095

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Okay, I seriously dont get this whole 'running down GW1 is going to mean GW2 support is gunna suck' (to paraphrase) thing is coming from. While in some instances I can kind of see (wanting to retain player base), there are a couple of things I see blowing holes in that kinda statement

first off: the ones updating the game are a small portion of the ANet staff. nearly everyone else is working on GW2, and that is where the company focus is, so it will be more supported than GW1 currently is. That is also not to mention some of the stuff they have put into the game since the Live Team started (MOX, the Menagerie, Zquests and coins, costumes, overhaul of the PvP heros/hench issue, etc)

second: GW2 is being started from scratch, as they have wanted to implement more stuff and cant on the existing architecture. Also they are redoing how they do skills, so they hopefully wont have the same imba problems second time around

thirdly: and to me this is an important one, people are still going to get the game anyway. They will get the trial, or they will just buy it, even if they have given up on GW1 just to see what it is like.

I will say that they shouldn't have made the 'skill update every 2 months' comment (just like the 'new content every 4 months' comment) though they still have done pretty well for the limited workforce that they have. But GW1 is not a reflection of what GW2 is going to be like

First off, the fact that they have left so little people to work on gw1 is a back up to my point that they have not prioritized correctly, the more people that quit the game before gw2 hype is big, the more people that will (in theory) not be wanting the game. And pretty much all the things you listed that the team has done haven't been necessary (except the removal of heroes and they still fluffed the henchy skill contest up).

Second, lets hope ay?

Third, sadly because most human beings are actually susceptable to temptation, they will, so they will probably get away with it all in the end... But that's why I was trying to raise the point.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

15 Jan 2010 at 13:55 - 1096

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Did PvP suck in the Prophecies era? No, it rocked. Did PvE suck in the Prophecies era? About as much as it does now. Conclusion? Balancing skills in PvE is pointless, balancing skills in PvP is mandatory.

LoL , you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

Mobs skill bars are static but PvE itself is NOT. In PvP you are always facing an lvl 20 foe and skills that you dont know in the first second you see him but you do later. Has always the same armor , always same lvl and always same weap damage unlike in PVE.

The thing is that in PvP you ONLY have to balance skills but to balance PvE you have to balance a lot of stuff more than PvP. If you are only comparing in SKILL BALANCING terms , you may find that part of pve balance "pointless" , ok , fine for you but hell , it is not the only thing to balance in PvE.

Seriously , comparing both balances IS pointless , since the introduction of HM. Even Anet did notice it and made some PvE/P splits ... but it was too late imo.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 13:56 - 1097

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Gimmicks are less of a problem in PvE than they are in PvP. This is because you are not forced to use them there while in PvP you are, unless you like losing.

I could question PvP being that good then, if gimmicks is the only way to go, but I won't.

Guess what, that's the reason why I stopped PvPing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Conclusion? Balancing skills in PvE is pointless, balancing skills in PvP is mandatory.

I agree, I don't know why you draw the conclusion that I don't.

Balance is not pointless in PvE, IMO. It just not mandatory nor as urgent as it is in PvP, but then again I could say that a game that needs costant rebalancing and nerfing because of gimmick builds is a awfully conceived game.

I just don't see a single reason for PvE to be even worse than it is with those absurd abuses running rampant.

JR

Re:tired

Join Date: Nov 2005

W/

15 Jan 2010 at 14:04 - 1098

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I could question PvP being that good then, if gimmicks is the only way to go, but I won't.

The PvP is only good for as long as the gimmicks are kept in check by timely, well thought out balance updates.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 14:10 - 1099

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR

The PvP is only good for as long as the gimmicks are kept in check by timely, well thought out balance updates.

Not something that's been happening in the last few years...

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 14:12 - 1100

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

I could question PvP being that good then, if gimmicks is the only way to go, but I won't.

Guess what, that's the reason why I stopped PvPing.

I agree, I don't know why you draw the conclusion that I don't.

Balance is not pointless in PvE, IMO. It just not mandatory nor as urgent as it is in PvP, but then again I could say that a game that needs costant rebalancing and nerfing because of gimmick builds is a awfully conceived game.

I just don't see a single reason for PvE to be even worse than it is with those absurd abuses running rampant.

Yes. PvP is currently pretty bad. Good observation. It's still better than PvE, though. Even the gimmicks take more skill than every build in PvE combined.

I don't see a single reason to fix absurd abuses. The only thing they affect is PUGplay, which sucks anyway. I really dislike dumb random people that fail all the time.

The only reason left is you being a balance purist. Balancing for the sake of balancing makes no sense. Stop pretending it does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

LoL , you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about.

Mobs skill bars are static but PvE itself is NOT. In PvP you are always facing an lvl 20 foe and skills that you dont know in the first second you see him but you do later. Has always the same armor , always same lvl and always same weap damage unlike in PVE.

The thing is that in PvP you ONLY have to balance skills but to balance PvE you have to balance a lot of stuff more than PvP. If you are only comparing in SKILL BALANCING terms , you may find that part of pve balance "pointless" , ok , fine for you but hell , it is not the only thing to balance in PvE.

Seriously , comparing both balances IS pointless , since the introduction of HM. Even Anet did notice it and made some PvE/P splits ... but it was too late imo.

It's quite obvious that you do not have the slightest hint what you're talking about yourself. I stated quite clearly in my comments that I'm talking about skill balancing being pointless, not other ways of balancing the game. The rest of your post is basically you repeating what I said earlier, making you look like even more of an idiot.

Quoting myself here:

"The only thing needed to improve PvP is balance. PvE is far, far, FAR harder to fix. It's theoretically possible, of course, if it wasn't there wouldn't be any good singleplayer games around. The problem, however, is that fixing PvE would take about as much time as completely designing a new game."

Ups.

Tenebrae

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2007

Spain

LHV

R/N

15 Jan 2010 at 14:24 - 1101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

It's quite obvious that you do not have the slightest hint what you're talking about yourself.
I stated quite clearly in my comments that I'm talking about skill balancing being pointless, not other ways of balancing the game. The rest of your post is basically you repeating what I said earlier, making you look like even more of an idiot.

Woah mister pvp name caller rages again. Soz , when i read some pvp ppl shit about "who gives a crap about pve ?" stuff i get lazy .
Still You or pvp ppl not caring about PvE Skill balance is nonsense , non valid and pure BS that cant be taken as a reason for not doing any pve skill balance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Quoting myself here:

"PvE balancing is not possible and i dont give a crap about it so , there are bigger problems to solve , why just solve one ? solve all or solve none !"

Translated and fixed. Same stuff SF defenders but in a totally "new" way. Thanks.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 14:28 - 1102

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Yes. PvP is currently pretty bad. Good observation. It's still better than PvE, though. Even the gimmicks take more skill than every build in PvE combined.

Debatable.

I actually think NOTHING in GW requires any "skill". It's a pretty simplistic game, even at the highest levels.

My idea of "skill" is something that has little to do with cancel stances or swift reflexes when interrupting. Or having a bot doing it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

I don't see a single reason to fix absurd abuses. The only thing they affect is PUGplay, which sucks anyway. I really dislike dumb random people that fail all the time.

I don't see a reason to fix/balance anything then. Gimmicks in PvP are replaced by new gimmicks the day after the nerf and balance is pretty much unattainable. So it's pointless to insist, PvE is hopeless and PvP is terrible and always be. Let players farm their Hero title before GW2 comes out.

/shutdownGW

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

The only reason left is you being a balance purist. Balancing for the sake of balancing makes no sense. Stop pretending it does.

Maybe. So? I actually don't care much about the next balance update. I just see the point the Live Team is trying to make with the SF/600 nerf.

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 14:32 - 1103

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Woah mister pvp name caller rages again. Soz , when i read some pvp ppl shit about "who gives a crap about pve ?" stuff i get lazy .
Still You or pvp ppl not caring about PvE Skill balance is nonsense , non valid and pure BS that cant be taken as a reason for not doing any pve skill balance.

Translated and fixed. Same stuff SF defenders but in a totally "new" way. Thanks.

Uhm, who are you calling a "mister pvp name caller" here? You are actually the one raging here! I'm not raging, I'm merely pointing out your incapability to read.

I don't care about PvE skill balance, that's true. I don't care about it because it's pointless. The only thing it affects is PUGs. And PUGplay sucks.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 14:44 - 1104

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

I don't care about PvE skill balance, that's true. I don't care about it because it's pointless. The only thing it affects is PUGs. And PUGplay sucks.

Actually, more than half of the "pressing issues" not getting a fix because of the delay are PvP issues...

Morphy

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2009

The Netherlands

Not going to keep up with that anymore

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 14:46 - 1105

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

Debatable.

I actually think NOTHING in GW requires any "skill". It's a pretty simplistic game, even at the highest levels.

My idea of "skill" is something that has little to do with cancel stances or swift reflexes when interrupting. Or having a bot doing it.

I don't see a reason to fix/balance anything then. Gimmicks in PvP are replaced by new gimmicks the day after the nerf and balance is pretty much unattainable. So it's pointless to insist, PvE is hopeless and PvP is terrible and always be. Let players farm their Hero title before GW2 comes out.

/shutdownGW

Maybe. So? I actually don't care much about the next balance update. I just see the point the Live Team is trying to make with the SF/600 nerf.

Bodyblocking, positioning etcetc. There's many things in GW you can be skilled at. Admittedly, there isn't as much room for improvement as there is in a game like chess but GW certainly isn't all that bad.

Observe Prophecies PvP. Clearly, it's possible to have a balanced and relatively skillful environment there. Of course, it won't be enough to last a lifetime but for a game it's pretty good. GW PvE has never been observed to work on a gameplay level. You don't play PvE for that. You play it for the storyline.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 15:10 - 1106

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Bodyblocking, positioning etcetc. There's many things in GW you can be skilled at.

Maybe. And, guess what, bodyblocking and positioning require "some skill" (not much) in PvE as well, because foes won't let you stop them and will go for the squishies if you even try. Unless you play a perma, that is...

Anyway, becoming skilled in any of those "things" in GW is easy as pie. It's a videogame, and not even a particularly sophisticated one. Widespread gimmicks both in PvE and PvP do nothing but demonstrate this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

Observe Prophecies PvP. Clearly, it's possible to have a balanced and relatively skillful environment there.

Using your own words... "You probably think it is because you're blinded by nostalgia."

Gimmick builds rose soon after PvP was born.

Those days are long gone anyway. As much as days without "1-2-3 to get loot" in PvE.

A good reason not to address Midline Spike or Phantom Pain? No.

A good reason not to address overpowered farming builds? No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morphy

You don't play PvE for that. You play it for the storyline.

Whatever you play it for, PvE is meant to be played, not run. That's exactly the point the Live Team is trying to make.

Coverticus

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2006

The Zodiac Elites [TZE]

Mo/

15 Jan 2010 at 15:10 - 1107

So much love and warmth over the last few posts

It seems some have forgotten what PvE was meant to be from Day 1 in Prophecies - a storyline for people to get into the game, to learn it's mechanics and progress to the end result - PvP.

ANet (as been said in many threads before) were not prepared for the success of PvE so it's hardly surprising that what was, in essence, bolted onto the PvE system with Factions and Nightfall that when they started on Utopia, they probably realised they were flogging a dead horse with the PvE aspect - hence Utopia becoming GW:EN and them starting on GW2.

They are doing in GW2 basically what PvE needs now - designing from the ground up. There is no way in GW at the moment that the kinda overhaul PvE seriously needs (mob skills, single and group AI, mob balancing etc etc) can be done to an aged game. So they are pasting over the cracks again and again and no matter what they do, it will not fix things.

We get a skill update, great. How long before that becomes boring again or new OP solo/team builds become available? So the wheel turns yet again and we are on the start of yet another debate on skills. PBond 55, Griffoners, SF Eles, Ursan, RoJ, CoP to name a few that have come before.

What I am more concerned with is the constant delay for this, not what the actual update will contain. It is the lack of information being made available that is the bug bear for me as it instills a lack of confidence in ANets ability to deliver. Not just here but in GW2.

aspi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Jan 2010

eeew

N/Rt

15 Jan 2010 at 15:28 - 1108

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverticus

So much love and warmth over the last few posts

It seems some have forgotten what PvE was meant to be from Day 1 in Prophecies - a storyline for people to get into the game, to learn it's mechanics and progress to the end result - PvP.

ANet (as been said in many threads before) were not prepared for the success of PvE so it's hardly surprising that what was, in essence, bolted onto the PvE system with Factions and Nightfall that when they started on Utopia, they probably realised they were flogging a dead horse with the PvE aspect - hence Utopia becoming GW:EN and them starting on GW2.

They are doing in GW2 basically what PvE needs now - designing from the ground up. There is no way in GW at the moment that the kinda overhaul PvE seriously needs (mob skills, single and group AI, mob balancing etc etc) can be done to an aged game. So they are pasting over the cracks again and again and no matter what they do, it will not fix things.

We get a skill update, great. How long before that becomes boring again or new OP solo/team builds become available? So the wheel turns yet again and we are on the start of yet another debate on skills. PBond 55, Griffoners, SF Eles, Ursan, RoJ, CoP to name a few that have come before.

What I am more concerned with is the constant delay for this, not what the actual update will contain. It is the lack of information being made available that is the bug bear for me as it instills a lack of confidence in ANets ability to deliver. Not just here but in GW2.

You really think that in GW2 there won't be any issues like this? I can only guess you are hoping this just like me, but isn't this the case in any gw-like game? There will always be issues with skills and there will always be winers that shout things like nerf this and nerf that.

Skill Balance is not only not possible, it sounds also pretty boring if you ask me.

Gill Halendt

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Mar 2008

15 Jan 2010 at 15:30 - 1109

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coverticus

So the wheel turns yet again and we are on the start of yet another debate on skills. PBond 55, Griffoners, SF Eles, Ursan, RoJ, CoP to name a few that have come before.

I can't believe the rise of those overpowered builds was completely unintentional and not foreseeable.

Just to name a few... UB was nerfed in August 2008 if I remember correctly. At the same time we got a buff for RoJ, VoR and CoP. And Shadow Form a couple of weeks later.

2009: Cryway and Rojway rise and then get nerfed. But Spirit Spam is buffed...

Most of the times we got a relevant nerf, we also got a contextual demented buff to please the crowd so that they didn't miss the loss much. A "shift of the metagame", as the Live Team loves to call it...

I'm pretty sure that's going to happen when permaSF is nerfed as well.

instanceskiller

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

Myst

A/

15 Jan 2010 at 15:38 - 1110

I wander where regina is on this issue?
Maybe there's just a big misunderstanding or a technical issue that's preventing them from updating today? Maybe they will update it later tonight?
I just wish anet could update us more regularly on these issues particularly as they are very VERY overdue.

Miscreant_Moon

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Jul 2009

Somewhere in Ascalon

Me/E

15 Jan 2010 at 16:12 - 1111

Page 43 instanceskiller:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

So I know some of you are waiting anxiously for the next skill balance. Let me just take a few moments to talk about the challenges we're facing with this particular skill balance. We are involving the Test Krewe in this balance. They've really been digging deep into skill discussions, and the involvement of the Test Krewe has added more cycles to the skill balance process. This is to be expected. When you invite a large group of people into the process and solicit and discuss their feedback, it will take more time. Secondly, skill balance (like many aspects of game design) is an iterative process, and one where both the Test Krewe and the Live Team are learning, streamlining, and improving on, in terms of how best to deliver and take in feedback. The winter holiday break hit, and there was some downtime for that. Finally, you all know that we do not change skills before the MAT. The Live Team and Test Krewe are working earnestly on this skill balance, and the Team knows that you've been waiting for it.

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 16:13 - 1112

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

600/smite and SF in dungeons encourges a lazy player base. Instead of actually figured out what they are fighting and COUNTERING it they just use an over powered farming build, alt tab and surf facebook while someone 1 man, 2man or 3mans and ELITE area DESIGNED for 8 PEOPLE.

Urgoz cryway was made to counter Urgoz's warren, cryway, even despite being a way to play through with a 12 man group instead of an overpowered farming build, was considered to be a gimmick. So what does that lead me to believe? That thinking and countering pretty much just creates gimmicks. so even if people do start thinking and create builds to go through areas effectively with a full human team, there'll be a thread saying that skills involved need to be nerfed, and the cycle of whining and bitching begins again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Your arguement is that without 600/smite I wont be able to do any dungeons quickly. So your skill level or lack off should determine what broken shit is left in the game?

I didn't say without 600/smite dungeons can't be finished quickly, i said it makes it easier to do. Jackass.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Everyone has access to the same, weapons, armor, heroes and skills plenty of people have figured out how to complete elite areas without abusing gimmicks.

yeah, cool, nice, awesome. and? pve is a joke, who cares how it's done?

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

I would suggest you wake up, realize your permaform and 600/smite is gonna be nerfed and start to play other builds.

Null point.

I don't perma, I almost never 600. I don't rely on broken shit to play this game, nor do i care that it exists, and i don't care whether they are nerfed or not.

Killed u man

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Jan 2010 at 16:25 - 1113

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miscreant_Moon

Page 43 instanceskiller:

So wtf was she trying to say?

Was she trying to say the usual: "Were lazy, so we WON'T have the October skill balanced ready by Januari, so you'll have to wait till Februari", or did she say: "We ARE rdy, and we're going to put it live tonight (today -friday), so people still have 2 weeks to prepare for mAT"?

God, If the first is true, it's downright pathetic. That's a... 5 month delay on a skill update. Good job anet, wars have been fought in lesser time...

Regulus X

Banned

Join Date: Oct 2007

N/A

D/W

15 Jan 2010 at 16:48 - 1114

I'll f'ing faint if this next skill update's buffs outweigh the nerfs. I forsee a tsunami of nerfage ranging from all farming builds in PvE to all overused PvP skills in general, and maybe buffing mending with like an extra pip of health regen.

I expect to see yet another mass exodus of PvE and PvP players [probably smaller than the past years because most players left by that time frame].

I'd also like to take the time to highlight the current state of the game:

GvG = Ruptbot City,
HA = Discriminationville,
RA = Resign-Denial/Dishonor Abuse/Report County,
Codex = J-O-K-E,
PvE = Easy Street.

instanceskiller

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Jan 2008

Myst

A/

15 Jan 2010 at 16:57 - 1115

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miscreant_Moon

Page 43 instanceskiller:

Thank you Miscreant.
well I seem to have lost all hope now in anet

I hope I'm wrong and that the skill update will go live in a day or two but I doubt it, and from what I understood from that post they; have to make skill balances take longer, they were busy over wintersday, and whilst not directly stated, we're not getting a balance this month...

I'm starting to wander whether the test krewe really was a good idea after all.
I mean, as of yet, all they seem to be doing is giving anet more excuses for the delay. I guess I can only hope that this delay will be a one off but I'm not stupid enough to believe that. Perhaps the update will show us that the test krewe was a good idea...maybe. Since we're waiting yet ANOTHERmonth i sincerely hope that the update will be a far larger update than the updates we got whilst they were 'monthly'.

On the same note, since they seem to be having serious trouble with getting this update live...I wander if they have even started on the next content update... I personally doubt it and I don't believe we will see it till maybe near the end of the year.

chaosincarnate87

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Oct 2006

Behind You ;)

DPR

15 Jan 2010 at 17:07 - 1116

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regina Buenaobra

Secondly, skill balance (like many aspects of game design) is an iterative process, and one where both the Test Krewe and the Live Team are learning, streamlining, and improving on, in terms of how best to deliver and take in feedback. The winter holiday break hit, and there was some downtime for that. Finally, you all know that we do not change skills before the MAT.

it was like 3 weeks before the mat when we were expecting the update THIS month alone... soooo feb 4th comes around and its like 3 weeks from the mat again and you're gonna say that you dont update before the mat? when are you supposed to update, theres a mat every month... hence the M at the beginning... or am i just really missing something here?

BuD

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Mar 2006

Nunya

E/Mo

15 Jan 2010 at 17:10 - 1117

I dont get why people are surprised we didnt get an update last night. Reginas post has been quoted numerous times stating that they dont change skills before the MAT's.

Snow Bunny

Alcoholic From Yale

Join Date: Jul 2007

Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]

15 Jan 2010 at 17:17 - 1118

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuD

I dont get why people are surprised we didnt get an update last night. Reginas post has been quoted numerous times stating that they dont change skills before the MAT's.

Because if you remembered update history you'd know that's total bullshit.

Killed u man

Forge Runner

Join Date: Feb 2006

15 Jan 2010 at 17:30 - 1119

Quote:

Originally Posted by BuD

I dont get why people are surprised we didnt get an update last night. Reginas post has been quoted numerous times stating that they dont change skills before the MAT's.

What guy above said, aswell as:

mAT is the 30th. It would be downright retarded if they would play the "before the mAT card".
They're a bunch of unorganized dimwits, we all know that, but if 2 weeks before a mAT is concidered "right before it", they have reached an all time low.

I can already see the post the day after the mAt: "We can't update this month, because the mAT already is in 30 days, we don't want to catch people by surprise, so we're going to delay it for next month".

Aurelio

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: Oct 2009

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 17:36 - 1120

This skill update is going to be released when gw2 will be ready for open betas.
They will nerf SF, 600/smite, 55s, Trappers, VWK, Sliver armor, obsidian flesh, Spirit Spammer, mark of pain, so that you will need 8 men team even to clean your ass.
Then pvers move to gw2.