Next Skill Balance - Guild Wars Guru archive powered by Guild Wars Legacy

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

14 Jan 2010 at 17:21 - 1001

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

We're not talking about MINOR bugs tough. Dhumm had half of his skillbar not working when released, and that was clearly noticeable. Costumes had obvious glitches. There was probably little testing on those in the urge of introducing content in a timely manner.

But hey, that's ok, I'm an IT engineer and I know bugs are pretty much the norm. They were acceptable since I though their focus was on "pressing issues" like balance, PvP bots, security issues, while Dhumm, Wintersday Costumes and the Jingle Moa were secondary projects.

Yet those secondary projects seem to be the only ones to advance, and this leaves me wondering about their organization.

Indeed. That's it. I really wonder why they felt the need to put EVERYTHING they had in mind in a cumulative update, when they themselves called some of those issues "pressing". Isn't their fix urgent? Shouldn't those "pressing issues" receive a solution now, even before they focus on making Tactics more viable for Warriors, or whatever?

On the first part: I guess it comes down to the fact that it has been a busy few months, as it usually is this time of year. the TK might be able to spot these bugs in new content before they make it to the live game, thus reducing them in future, but they have only just implemented the TK and working the problems out with that too.

Of the latter part: This could be in part to them missing their own timetable, and also in part to lay the foundation for changes later on. This is their first time working with the TK, so a lot of things may have come up in feedback that normally would have taken a few months if it were just changed and put in the game like previously. Who knows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Don't worry about it dude. If they screw up this update too bad, they'll only have to cater for a small fraction of the playerbase..

Funniest thing, I see this kinda comment in a lot of games, and rarely does it ring true cause a lot of people who say 'update this or I leave' rarely do, and if they do half of them return anyway...

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

14 Jan 2010 at 17:30 - 1002

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrettM

Let me get this straight: inflation causes prices to fall? The rich get richer because they get less for the items they sell, while the poor get poorer for exactly the same reason? So, if a poor person sells a sword for 10k that used to be worth 25k, he gets poorer, while a rich person selling the same sword for the same price would get richer? I'm a bit confused as to how this works.

Or are you saying that the problem is that the poor person, being deprived of 15k on the transaction, is somehow not getting wealthier as fast as the rich person, who also gets 15k less, but was getting wealthier at the same or greater rate when both received 25k? And this is bad despite the fact that the poor person now has more wealth in absolute terms?

Wealth is not absolute. It is relative.

Inflation of ectos doesn't cause prices to fall, but SF makes it far easier to farm items. This decreases their price. In other words, if you happen to pick up (insert item here) while playing, the value of said item is far less than it would be if SF didn't exist, because SF has probably been used to saturate the market with them.

Inflation of ectos causes the relative wealth possessed by those who do not use SF to drop, while increasing the relative wealth of those who do.

Now, personally, I couldn't care less about SF's effects on the economy. I'm just explaining what it does to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Bumping this because the anti-SF crowd boils down to this one lame argument.

How can you say it doesn't affect anyone else when it removes the purpose of playing entire professions?

As for something replacing it...Well, there is currently nothing in the game that can truly replace SF. There is nothing right now that can provide the sheer degree of invulnerability possessed by it. OF can replace SF's role, but it won't perform it nearly as well. Now, it is possible that sometime in the future Anet will introduce something equally (or even more) broken, but that is not a certainty. After all, I have yet to see a buff for dervishes that gives them back the sort of power they had at their introduction.

Who says balance isn't possible? It's exceedingly unlikely, but it's not impossible. And even if it was, it most certainly would not mean that we shouldn't strive for it. You'd have to be foolish to think that the game can't at least become more balanced than it is now.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

14 Jan 2010 at 17:53 - 1003

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

How can you say it doesn't affect anyone else when it removes the purpose of playing entire professions?

Repeating something false over and over again doesn't make it true...unless you are a politician.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

14 Jan 2010 at 17:55 - 1004

Why should I play, say, a mesmer when I could be a SF sin?

Sid Doog

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

DR (Drunkin Rangers)

E/Me

14 Jan 2010 at 18:00 - 1005

Whats the point really to nerfin SF everyone that has a sin elly or what ever has made millions from it ,nerfin it now is just pointless lol. just my 1 1/2 cents

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

14 Jan 2010 at 18:04 - 1006

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why should I play, say, a mesmer when I could be a SF sin?

Because it is a challenge, makes things interesting, change things up a bit.

I know I myself dont particularly like to play one build or style all the time, so I have quite a few chars across all the professions bar Paragon (never really liked that one for some reason...) just to change things up a bit from time to time.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

14 Jan 2010 at 18:09 - 1007

There are easier ways to create a challenge than switching to another profession. Using an assassin build that isn't SF, MSDB, or critscythe, for example.

Zahr Dalsk

Grotto Attendant

Join Date: Aug 2007

Canada

14 Jan 2010 at 18:13 - 1008

If all the perma sins left, would we really notice their absence (outside of ToA and doomlore)? I barely see them at ZQ outposts anyways.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

14 Jan 2010 at 18:15 - 1009

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Why should I play, say, a mesmer when I could be a SF sin?

After 50+ pages I can't believe this old horse is being drawn back out for flogging and using the weakest link in PvE as a support to boot! Last time you tried this I told you to roll something other than a Dervish, did you? It has absolutely nothing to do with SF and everything to do with playing a bottom tier PvE profession as a main.

How did you survive during the days of B/P, Steel Wall and countless others? Back then you either played what the group wanted, profession AND build, or /kick. Unfair, maybe, but this didn't just start with SF there are years worth of precedent especially in high-end PvE. Team builds typically revolve around 3-4 professions, that means the majority will always be left out.

niek2004

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Sep 2007

Afk in Gh.

Old N Dirty[ym] Good Tactics[Good]

P/Rt

14 Jan 2010 at 18:41 - 1010

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apathetic Tom

QFT

It's been said that there's pvpers on TK, yet now and then some ignant person has to make a comment like this:

A friend of me who got in TK told me that it was an unorganized mess, clueless people were discussing the PvP skill balance and that nothing good would ever come out of it.

I assumed he was talking about PvE players, my bad?

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

14 Jan 2010 at 19:24 - 1011

Quote:

Originally Posted by QueenofDeath

I left a long time ago because of SF and 600 smite and all the other gimmick builds they allowed.These builds made thngs accessible for less hardcore players that aren't into grinding hours of their life to acquire. With the increased availability of high end items, i felt my epeen begin to get smaller and more flaccid, and my worth as a player begin to diminish. Curse 600/smite, ursan and SF for making stuff available to people with less grind and time investment to a meaningless virtual life.

Fixed that for you.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

14 Jan 2010 at 19:58 - 1012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

After 50+ pages I can't believe this old horse is being drawn back out for flogging and using the weakest link in PvE as a support to boot! Last time you tried this I told you to roll something other than a Dervish, did you? It has absolutely nothing to do with SF and everything to do with playing a bottom tier PvE profession as a main.

How did you survive during the days of B/P, Steel Wall and countless others? Back then you either played what the group wanted, profession AND build, or /kick. Unfair, maybe, but this didn't just start with SF there are years worth of precedent especially in high-end PvE. Team builds typically revolve around 3-4 professions, that means the majority will always be left out.

I can't believe people are still dragging out the "don't like it, don't use it" horse.

First of all, I don't recall mentioning the dervish in this case (though I easily could have). Second, I did not survive during those days, because I was not around. Third, the fact that you did indeed have to do that did not mean it was right.

Team builds revolve around 3-4 professions because they are typically overpowered and the other 6 professions are typically underpowered. Fix the imbalance, and you would have more variety in team builds. Probably not 8 players of different professions, but it would certainly be better than what we have now. And nerfing SF is the required first step, because it's the most stupidly overpowered thing out there. If you don't do that in some fashion, anything else you do to fix the rest of the game won't mean jack, because people will keep right on using SF to steamroll through it, leaving most professions in the dust.

Finally, I don't recall mentioning anything about one's ability to get into groups. Being able to get into a group with a crappy profession or build does not make it any less crappy and purposeless.

toocooltang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

USA

ToA

W/

14 Jan 2010 at 20:23 - 1013

@tom

Most highend players leave because of the gimmick builds but not because what reasons you have listed, epeen, loss of prestige etc. DOA used to be a hard area that required 2-3hours to complete, even with gimmicks like ursan. Before ursan the rewards for DOA were great, much like the time investment and skill required to complete the zone. Now with the SF gimmick, DOA has essentually turned into a joke area, much like sorrows furance.

The real problem with SF, 600/smite, and the like is they allow things to be completed 3x faster than every.....other.....teambuild.....out there. What do you think balanced means? Physway? Cryway? Searingflames? Balanced means that any of the meta team builds dont have a major advantage over the other team builds. Balanced means the team with the better players utilize their bars better and complete zones faster, not the otherway around.

and P.S. most SF and 600/smite builds require LOTS of PVE skills and humans so thats alot of EOTN grinding.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

14 Jan 2010 at 20:47 - 1014

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

@tom

Most highend players leave because of the gimmick builds but not because what reasons you have listed, epeen, loss of prestige etc. DOA used to be a hard area that required 2-3hours to complete, even with gimmicks like ursan. Before ursan the rewards for DOA were great, much like the time investment and skill required to complete the zone. Now with the SF gimmick, DOA has essentually turned into a joke area, much like sorrows furance.

I thought it was because there hasn't been any new content to the game since Eotn, and people were bored of playing the same thing over and over again for a few shinies.

Reformed

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Aug 2009

14 Jan 2010 at 20:49 - 1015

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

snip

I'm Switzerland, nowhere in that post did I imply or allude to "don't like it, don't use it" or anywhere else for that matter because I don't care. SFers have never effected my gameplay experience. In fact the only thing that changed is occasionally I have to trade ecto from someone with an A next to their name instead of say, an Mo.

You play the game with people who played back then and the status quo is very much still intact. Dayway is a self-fulfilling prophecy and so will every other team build be in the future regardless of what happens to SF. Little Johnny PuG still isn't going to get into groups and teams will always center around <50% of available professions. This is not an excuse to leave SF alone, I don't care if they flat out remove it from the game, it's a simple statement of fact with precedent to back it up.

They can't "balance" PvE because it's never been balanced. To that end there is no possible way to make every profession desirable when party slots and skillbar compression are at a premium. They tried with Ursan, the players issued a teary eyed veto, it backfired horribly. This is why the "removes the purpose of playing entire professions" point is so utterly absurd. Some people are simply impossible to please.

reaper with no name

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2009

FaZ

D/

14 Jan 2010 at 20:55 - 1016

I wasn't poking fun at you with that part. It was referring to the fact that both sides are continually bringing up the same arguments because this debate has been going on so long. Repetition is inevitable.

In practice, it has always been the case that certain professions are unwanted. But there is no reason to think that it necessarily must be this way. In theory, it is certainly possible to make each profession useful to a group in it's own unique way. Will it happen? Almost certainly not. But it is possible to take at least a few steps towards it. SF is one such step.

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

14 Jan 2010 at 21:19 - 1017

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Wealth is not absolute. It is relative.

Inflation of ectos doesn't cause prices to fall, but SF makes it far easier to farm items. This decreases their price. In other words, if you happen to pick up (insert item here) while playing, the value of said item is far less than it would be if SF didn't exist, because SF has probably been used to saturate the market with them.

Inflation of ectos causes the relative wealth possessed by those who do not use SF to drop, while increasing the relative wealth of those who do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toocooltang

Balanced means that any of the meta team builds dont have a major advantage over the other team builds. Balanced means the team with the better players utilize their bars better and complete zones faster, not the other way around.

Excellent posts. Win economics and a win definition. Both are rare. You deserve commendation.

Winterclaw

Wark!!!

Join Date: May 2005

Florida

W/

14 Jan 2010 at 21:19 - 1018

Has anyone else not read all 1k posts?

Anyways I want to know why SF is getting nerfed but Mist Form isn't getting buffed at least so it protects you from physical interrupts and conditions applied by physical attacks.

The Drunkard

Wilds Pathfinder

Join Date: Nov 2007

Still looking

Rt/

14 Jan 2010 at 21:31 - 1019

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Has anyone else not read all 1k posts?

Anyways I want to know why SF is getting nerfed but Mist Form isn't getting buffed at least so it protects you from physical interrupts and conditions applied by physical attacks.

Why should mist form get buffed? It going to be sub-par to terra tank anyway.

Zehnchu

Popcorn Fetish

Join Date: Dec 2005

[GODS]

Mo/Me

14 Jan 2010 at 21:48 - 1020

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Drunkard

Why should mist form get buffed? It going to be sub-par to terra tank anyway.

terra tanks will be good for 2 months unless Anet/test krew also added to the list after reading this thread.

fenix

Major-General Awesome

Join Date: Aug 2005

Aussie Trolling Crew HQ - Event Organiser and IRC Tiger

Ex Talionis [Law], Trinity of the Ascended [ToA] ????????????????&#

W/

14 Jan 2010 at 21:49 - 1021

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

Has anyone else not read all 1k posts?

Anyways I want to know why SF is getting nerfed but Mist Form isn't getting buffed at least so it protects you from physical interrupts and conditions applied by physical attacks.

Counter-productive for stopping silly overpowered farming builds.

Sid Doog

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

DR (Drunkin Rangers)

E/Me

14 Jan 2010 at 22:06 - 1022

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenix

Counter-productive for stopping silly overpowered farming builds.

As i posted earlyer who cares about farming builds the damage has already been done lol man i just don't get it. I wouldnt be suprised one bit if A-Net does nothing to SF really whats the point maybe i am missing something

Martin Alvito

Older Than God (1)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Clan Dethryche [dth]

14 Jan 2010 at 22:25 - 1023

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sid Doog

As i posted earlyer who cares about farming builds the damage has already been done lol man i just don't get it.

It's always possible to limit further damage resulting from a bad situation.

I agree that much of the prospective damage has already been done. This does not imply the futility of action to prevent the remainder of the prospective damage.

Fay Vert

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Apr 2006

R/

14 Jan 2010 at 22:28 - 1024

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrvrod

Bumping this because the anti-SF crowd boils down to this one lame argument.

Wow. So just to be clear then; you would actually see no problem at all with such a skill?

Wuhy

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Dec 2008

R/

14 Jan 2010 at 22:43 - 1025

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fay Vert

Wow. So just to be clear then; you would actually see no problem at all with such a skill?

no he wouldn't. me neither since pve is a joke so give everyone everything asap, balance pvp and maybe it could be revived : O(olol)

Turbo Ginsu

I despise facebook

Join Date: Feb 2008

Australia

Meeting of the Lost Minds

Me/

14 Jan 2010 at 22:44 - 1026

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ariovist Lynxkind

Funniest thing, I see this kinda comment in a lot of games, and rarely does it ring true cause a lot of people who say 'update this or I leave' rarely do, and if they do half of them return anyway...

Oh yes, I've seen it a lot too. Gaming since '79. Now it's one thing to see it in relation to a brand new game such as MW2, it's another thing entirely when the game in question is 5 years old, getting rather stale, even for the people who love it, and has already lost a decent amount of players to boredom and/or disgruntlement at the way it's been looked after by the manufacturer.

If the nerfbat get's waved around like a 2 year old with a brand new rattle, I won't be going anywhere, I'm a builder, for me, this is just a new challenge. But not everyone thinks like that. Farmers and/or Runners make up a relatively large portion of the current playerbase, anyone who thinks otherwise needs to hang in Rata Sum or Doomlore for a while, so of course, if their means to $$ is removed, it's bound to make them PUG up....Um, no. For it is not their mentality to do so, or as I've said before, they'd already be doing it.

I await the updates with just the slightest sense of anticipation..

Sid Doog

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2005

DR (Drunkin Rangers)

E/Me

14 Jan 2010 at 22:51 - 1027

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Alvito

It's always possible to limit further damage resulting from a bad situation.

I agree that much of the prospective damage has already been done. This does not imply the futility of action to prevent the remainder of the prospective damage.

I do agree but with GW2 comeing out in Nov (supposedly lol) i still dont see the point because we cant take our money with us

Ariovist Lynxkind

Lion's Arch Merchant

Join Date: Dec 2006

Lynxkind Atrium, Echovald Forest, Cantha

Death Bringers Union [DBU]

R/

14 Jan 2010 at 22:52 - 1028

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

Oh yes, I've seen it a lot too. Gaming since '79. Now it's one thing to see it in relation to a brand new game such as MW2, it's another thing entirely when the game in question is 5 years old, getting rather stale, even for the people who love it, and has already lost a decent amount of players to boredom and/or disgruntlement at the way it's been looked after by the manufacturer.

If the nerfbat get's waved around like a 2 year old with a brand new rattle, I won't be going anywhere, I'm a builder, for me, this is just a new challenge. But not everyone thinks like that. Farmers and/or Runners make up a relatively large portion of the current playerbase, anyone who thinks otherwise needs to hang in Rata Sum or Doomlore for a while, so of course, if their means to $$ is removed, it's bound to make them PUG up....Um, no. For it is not their mentality to do so, or as I've said before, they'd already be doing it.

I await the updates with just the slightest sense of anticipation..

oh, you would be surprised. how many left GW to go play Aion, only to return a month later...

on the nerfing side of things, this will really only affect farms, as well as their target: speed clears. I dont see this affecting the running business

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

14 Jan 2010 at 22:54 - 1029

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wuhy

actually, you are wrong. you never had to grind before EOTN in order to be able to do something, what you needed was skill.

Also, no one was talking about before EOTN, read first, reply later.

zhongzh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2008

Temple of Ages

Mo/

14 Jan 2010 at 23:09 - 1030

So, um...shouldn't there be a skill update right about now?

Yelling @ Cats

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

14 Jan 2010 at 23:14 - 1031

Quote:

Originally Posted by zhongzh

So, um...shouldn't there be a skill update right about now?

Na, it's next month.

Due to the unforeseen holidays, it has been delayed.

toocooltang

Frost Gate Guardian

Join Date: Sep 2008

USA

ToA

W/

14 Jan 2010 at 23:48 - 1032

@Tom

LOL are you saying you dont need EOTN to participate in any speedclears? EBSOH is almost required for any perma bar for sliver armor. You also need finish him, radiation field, BUH, IAS, YMLAD. All of them are required to do SCs, thus if you want to run your bar as effectivly as possilbe you need to AT LEAST grind out to r8 in 4 title tracks. Sure you don't have to grind anything but, then you are running a less effective bar. This ties back into my orginal post, I suggest you read it.

@Martin

Thanks!

Yelling @ Cats

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jun 2009

14 Jan 2010 at 23:57 - 1033

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wuhy

o rly

Yeah, what do you have to grind in EotN?

All of the skills are usable at rank 3-4, which is easily attainable by playing the game. Then you get the book to turn in after you complete the game, that will take one of them up to 5-6.

Grind is only necessary if you want to make the spell last 10 seconds instead of 8.

Phaern Majes

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2005

Anywhere but up

The Panserbjorne [ROAR]

R/Mo

15 Jan 2010 at 00:18 - 1034

55 still works! Granted the trolls don't drop much anymore, but you can always run past them and hit up the giants too

stretchs

Jungle Guide

Join Date: Sep 2007

Untimely Demise [Err了] - SOHK

15 Jan 2010 at 00:35 - 1035

Blegh 4 month late skill update is blegh

tuna-fish_sushi

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2005

California

E/A

15 Jan 2010 at 00:37 - 1036

well considering canthan new year is coming up im guessing they will use it as an excuse to not update, therefore soonest update = mid march. >< I just want to see skills changed so I can play around with them.

zhongzh

Ascalonian Squire

Join Date: May 2008

Temple of Ages

Mo/

15 Jan 2010 at 00:53 - 1037

Meh. Not really surprised anymore since Anet keeps consistently breaking their commitments. At least we get to abuse certain skills for at least another month.

MMSDome

Raged Out

Join Date: Sep 2005

15 Jan 2010 at 01:00 - 1038

This thread is just one big loophole of people not listening to each other and it is getting no where.

Close and lock all threads discussing SF since they all end up in the same place.

Del

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Sep 2009

In a van, down by the river.

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO if I know, ask Lynette.

R/

15 Jan 2010 at 01:03 - 1039

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wuhy

you know what? no one gives a crap. your argument stating that you have to grind less now than before ursan/sf/600/smite is still invalid.

First off, don't say someone's argument is invalid if you're too stupid to provide a counter point to back up your claim.
Second, my point was that 600/smite and sf allowed dungeons to be completed more quickly than h/h or pugging through the dungeon. which leaves more time for it to be completed repeatedly for high end items.

But why should i even bother replying to you? you don't even read/comprehend a post before you start telling someone they're wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

This thread is just one big loophole of people not listening to each other and it is getting no where.

Close and lock all threads discussing SF since they all end up in the same place.

Karate Jesus

Forge Runner

Join Date: Apr 2008

Texas

Reign of Judgment [RoJ]

Me/

15 Jan 2010 at 01:14 - 1040

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMSDome

This thread is just one big loophole of people not listening to each other and it is getting no where.

Close and lock all threads discussing SF since they all end up in the same place.

I think they (the mods) plan on leaving this thread open until the next skill balance, considering that someone would just make another thread about the late skill update :/