Discuss general pve hero usage.

IMO, viable secondary professions for necros are ...

monk - prot 9 and healing 5 or prot 10 - Prot spirit / Aegis / Dwayna's Sorrow / Spirit bond ?

mesmer - domination - Cry of Fustration / power spike ?

paragons - command - fall back ?

ritualist - channeling - splinter weapon / ancestor's rage / death pact signet / flesh for my flesh

ritualist - restoration - life / spirit light / mend body and soul / ghost mirror light / flesh for my flesh / death pact signet

what am i missing ?

IMO, i feel that the channeling rit / domination mes / prot monk secondaries are the most attractive . What do you think ? I've ran the same basic MB build with most of these options dependant on area although my most perferred one is probably the Resto Rit with Mend/Pure was Li ming/Flesh.

The prot version was used alot until i started running an ER protter , but i didnt see any huge extra benefit in doubling up so i just stick with my prots on the Ele and use the MB for something else.

I have been trying the /P fallback build recently and i find the extra speedboost makes a very nice difference. seemed to really speed up a few vanquishes so i might stick with it for a bit , unless im in a real condi/hex heavy area.

The only other option i was looking at was a /Monk version for bonding SoH on a physical or 2 but i havent been arsed to see if thats worth it yet

/P for speed, /Rit for heals and condi removal or /Me for interupts would be my preference

mage767

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02 Feb 2010 at 15:28 - 50

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Screens/ builds, in that case? Only way to prove it ;-P
Besides, I could deal that amount of damage with barbs+BuH and 3 sins spamming with LF on the Master of Damage. I assume. I doubt you can keep up the damage using 3 sin support over 3 minutes...

P.S. Pm'ed you the screenshot, check it out.

Lusciious

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02 Feb 2010 at 22:24 - 51

Originally Posted by mage767

I doubt you can keep up the damage using 3 sin support over 3 minutes...

P.S. Pm'ed you the screenshot, check it out. i think he said BuH and not EVAS .

@aldric, paragons have actually pretty good utilities in the command line . like anthem of disruption . its only 10 energy which is nothing for a nec .

don't forget rit for splinter weapon . splinter weapon + mops + aoe = very nice!

i wanted triple aegis ! but then when i think about it again, i don't think i need that much .

in HM, i'd take spirit bond over prot spirit . if the enemy does not deal above 60 damage, spirit bond does not work however if the enemy does not deal over 60 damage, prot spirit does not work either .

spirit bond on the other hand heals . but of course, it's better to have both

edit: i have tried the ER orders . it worked way better than an orders nec . the build is a few posts above .

MasterSasori

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R/Mo

02 Feb 2010 at 23:28 - 52

in HM, i'd take spirit bond over prot spirit . if the enemy does not deal above 60 damage, spirit bond does not work however if the enemy does not deal over 60 damage, prot spirit does not work either .

spirit bond on the other hand heals . but of course, it's better to have both

i think he said BuH and not EVAS .

@aldric, paragons have actually pretty good utilities in the command line . like anthem of disruption . its only 10 energy which is nothing for a nec .

I don't see anything other than Fallback or We shall return that a para has that another class can do better.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

i wanted triple aegis ! but then when i think about it again, i don't think i need that much . You don't. Double Aegis may not even be necessary.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious

Prot Spirit>Spirit Bond in PvE. It's too short and the damage spike you are worried about in PvE aren't enough for SB to compensate compared to PS.

edit: i have tried the ER orders . it worked way better than an orders nec . the build is a few posts above . And what did you use for the filler slots? I don't see anything that blood/energy storage can do that is useful enough to compensate for N/X Orders.

Lusciious

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03 Feb 2010 at 09:55 - 53

there are a few more paragon skills that is still worthy of usage in PvE . Think out of the box .

"Find Their Weakness!" for more damage + DW.
"Stand Your Ground!" for extra armor while fighting.
"Fall Back!" for movement support.
Anthem of Weariness for added Weakness.
Anthem of Disruption to interrupt.
"Never Surrender!" to save dying allies.

Aegis helps to remove alot of pressure off the monk's blue bar .

Quote:

Prot Spirit>Spirit Bond in PvE. It's too short and the damage spike you are worried about in PvE aren't enough for SB to compensate compared to PS. You managed to shut me up on this point . i guess what you said made more sense then what i said >.>

For the ER Orders, there is ER, Aura of Restoration, Order of pain, dark fury, awaken the blood .

3 more optionals . the ER can afford awaken the blood because his hp regen can counter the hp sacrificed .

the 3 optionals can be strip enchant (which is usually in my bar) and ward against foe / melee / eruption / earthquake from earth magic or we can go curses for barbs, mop, enfeebling blood.

First things first, D/N is out because it just doesn't do as well as either builds .

Yes a N/X Orders can go curses and even be better than the ER Orders in some cases, but remember, the N/X Orders (Order of Pain + Fury or OotV) cannot sustain his own hp .

17+17 = 34% hp sacrificed is alot .

infact, 17 is already alot . the hp gained from the physicals can sometimes be lower than the hp sacrificed by N/X orders. Your healers would have to focus on you also . when your party is under pressure, you don't want that to happen .

Yes you would have more variety in your optionals if you went N/X but you will have energy problems if nothing dies / low corpse areas . but what more optionals do you want ? how much of a spread of attribute can your nec do ?

Maximum 3 ? Blood and SR are a must . so what are you left with ? one last attribute .

Like mentioned earlier, you have more variety e.g. channeling, restoration (no pwk btw since you want to be wielding a spear), smite, curses, command, domination, protection .

But tell me, what can you fill with all those slots ?

I'm 100% sure that if you were a N/X Order, you won't go Order of Pain + Dark fury because it sacrifices too much hp . So OotV . What other blood skills are viable ?

OotV, Strip Enchant, SoLS. 5 optionals

How many good optionals can you use ? Yeah get protection, aegis, prot spirit, spirit bond, soa, dismiss condition ? how energy intensive is that ? o.o and you're also spamming OotV .

come to think of it .. i kinda like having more varieties . i shall try to make another N/X OotV build .

Care to help ?

I think mark of fury can replace dark fury as long as you start calling . and OotV is always better than Order of Pain .

Well it has to do something with it's own HP . It was meant to be a support yet it can't support itself ?

Lusciious

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03 Feb 2010 at 11:04 - 54

i know i'm contradicting what i said in the earlier post but i'll give it a go .

seeing how i don't want my orders nec to be spamming well of blood, i decided to go with well of power .

heres my orders build .

Well of Power, Order of Pain, Mark of Fury / Dark Fury, Strip Enchantment, Splinter Weapon, Nightmare Weapon, Ancestor's rage, Awaken the Blood.

Well of Power provides better support than Order of the vampire and i have replaced well of blood (no more fighting with MM for corpses)

We use order builds for physical buffs . OotV is a + because it has health stealing however it does not work with other nec enchants . Order of Pain deals as much damage as OotV and it works with nec enchants .

What do you think of it ?

also, i can't decide on a minor blood rune or superior .

with awaken the blood and major, you get 17 blood magic which = +7 hp regen from well of blood . also, it reduces hp sacced since now your overall hp is lower .

or maybe a major rune since all we need is 17 blood magic.

edit: however, do remember that OotV is armour ignoring since it's life steal. Idk if its possible to make a good build with OotV as the elite .

am open for ideas .

also, heroes do not use unholy feast well .

MasterSasori

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03 Feb 2010 at 16:27 - 55

I don't think there is anything I haven't tried on a Paragon bar unless it's really out of the box. I use them all to some extent except Never Surrender, which blows.

Quote:

Maximum 3 ? Blood and SR are a must . so what are you left with ? one last attribute . There are some skills that can be used that require no/little atts to be effective. The same problems about att spread can be attributed to ER as well. Except the N/X at least has a free secondary for something useful.

3 more optionals . the ER can afford awaken the blood because his hp regen can counter the hp sacrificed .

the 3 optionals can be strip enchant (which is usually in my bar) and ward against foe / melee / eruption / earthquake from earth magic or we can go curses for barbs, mop, enfeebling blood. ER can afford it but unless you spec to a third att, everything else in energy storage/blood magic isn't too useful. Using Earth magic is creative, but earth magic sucks in HM as it is. Eruption/Ward is decent with some damage mitigation but no where as useful as the N/X healer. Besides N/X can reach higher Blood Magic.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

First things first, D/N is out because it just doesn't do as well as either builds . D/N was probably the worst hero mistake I've made since ZB monk.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Yes a N/X Orders can go curses and even be better than the ER Orders in some cases, but remember, the N/X Orders (Order of Pain + Fury or OotV) cannot sustain his own hp .

17+17 = 34% hp sacrificed is alot . Why on earth would you run Awaken the Blood on the necro unless you want to die?

[QUOTE=Lusciious;5040532]Yes you would have more variety in your optionals if you went N/X but you will have energy problems if nothing dies / low corpse areas . but what more optionals do you want ? how much of a spread of attribute can your nec do ?....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Like mentioned earlier, you have more variety e.g. channeling, restoration (no pwk btw since you want to be wielding a spear), smite, curses, command, domination, protection.....

How many good optionals can you use ? Yeah get protection, aegis, prot spirit, spirit bond, soa, dismiss condition ? how energy intensive is that ? o.o and you're also spamming OotV ....

Care to help ? Where should I begin?

SOH, Smite Hex/Condition, Fallback, We Shall Return, Anthem of Weariness, disruption ect, Cry of Frustration, Power Return (Fast Cast but wutever), Remove Hex, Aegis, PS, Convert Hexes, Warmonger's Weapon, Splinter Weapon, Barbs, Enfeebling blood, Shadow of Fear, Life, Recovery, Rejuvenation, MBAS, Spirit Light, Ghostmirror light, Death Pact Sig, FoF.

SB sucks. Thought I mentioned that earlier. SoA is not OP enough to make it on the bar.

Having problems spamming OoV? Soul reaping 10+1 instead of 8+1. /Me Inspiration for Power Drain, Leech Sig, Inspire crap

OoV and to an extent, Strip Enchantment and Mark of Fury (MAYBE blood rit) are the only things truly worth carrying on the bar in terms of blood. With 8+1 or 10+1 soul reaping, you have a free 8 or 10 for another necro line or a secondary line. Customization and freedom of secondary w/ atts is one of the strongest pros for a N/X OoV. How often can you say that of other hero lines? To have like 5-6 free slots?

Well it has to do something with it's own HP . It was meant to be a support yet it can't support itself? That is subjective. Same principle as almost all hero builds: Team effort. If OoV needs heals, use a ER infuser or something to make it up for continual life loss.

I don't see many options better than N/Rt anyway.

Lusciious

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03 Feb 2010 at 22:35 - 56

i have no energy problems spamming OotV . i meant spamming prot spells

Quote:

Why on earth would you run Awaken the Blood on the necro unless you want to die? that's why we use infuse like you said earlier .

In the previous post, my nec can sustain itself and support the party with well of power + order of pain + awaken the blood . it might even work with dark fury . I didn't say to use awaken the blood with OotV

Here's how i think it ranks .

OotV Nec = SoS Restoration Support Rit > Order of Pain Nec > Others

The only reason why Order of Pain would be dealing less than it's stated damage is against high AL bosses . since Order of Pain = Physical damage like barbs . However a spirit's attack is armour ignoring and added together with Painful Bond, you would see up to 50 damage per spirit . But remember that even though it's armour ignoring, it does not by pass prots so prots like shielding hands would reduce its damage . But also, don't forget that the spirit's attack aren't 200 and that it has to be blocked by prot spirit . they do small damage packs which is good and bad .

there aren't many prots that prevent a spirit from attacking . there is SH, SoA, Prot Spirit (but mostly it doesn't work since spirits usually attack for <30 and the enemies usually have more than 300 hp), prot bond (i don't think AI uses this well), RoF (this blocks OotV as well), LS (this blocks OotV as well), life bond (look at prot bond), guardian (this goes against OotV as well) and Aegis.

Look at it . the most harmful prots e.g. RoF, LS, Guardian, Aegis and against spirit attacks also affect OotV .

Because of the fact that OotV bypasses most prots and is armour ignoring like spirit attacks and spirits have low hp, therefore OotV > Spirits . But an OotV has to sacrifice it's hp . but an SoS Rit doesn't .

But yeah .. OotV + Channeling > SoS + Restoration > Others ...

so far i like Well of Power + Order of Pain . The support is good . and i get to use (+ a major and awaken the blood for 17 blood for +7 hp regen from well of power) and of course higher damage from order of pain . no life steal is bad but w.e .. i can't make a good build with OotV -.-

edit: this is just retarded .

a SoS Restoration Rit is the best . Sorry . Just proven it over and over again .

SoS + Painful Bond + 47 damage x 5 splinter weapon + Heals > OotV

Look . with a hybrid SoS Rit, you don't have to get another healer . that means you get to bring 4 physicals . and this means that SoS wins

Lusciious

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05 Feb 2010 at 09:59 - 57

funny i'm contradicting myself again .

both works i guess

i have a few questions though ...

Quote:

N/Rt OoV/Weapon

Order Of The Vampire, Mark Of Fury, Well Of Blood/Strip Enchantment(depends), Nightmare, splinter and Warmonger weapons, SoLS, Flesh of My Flesh. Do heroes stack weapon spells on the same person ?

Do you micro well of blood ?

I wouldn't bring Flesh for my Flesh . I like the other one more .

Do you use a minor rune or sup rune of blood magic ?

Shadowphoenix

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05 Feb 2010 at 13:12 - 58

i have a few questions though ...

Do heroes stack weapon spells on the same person ?

Do you micro well of blood ?

I wouldn't bring Flesh for my Flesh . I like the other one more .

Do you use a minor rune or sup rune of blood magic ?

Answers:

1) If you mean about if the same person can have multiple weaponspells on him the answer is NO, because if a hero put you in example a Splinter Weapon and then put you Nightmare Weapon the last one will overwrite Splinter Weapon, otherwise if you mean if a hero can put you in example Splinter Weapons multiples times before Splinter Weapons the answer is YES it happens that heroes put you the same spell multiple times or before ends the first one.

2) No heroes when they see a corpse on sight they activate the wells without microing (at least for me).

3) Is a matter of choice but in my opinion I prefer minor blood rune.

Hope this help you Lusciious

HigherMinion

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05 Feb 2010 at 13:50 - 59

Originally Posted by Shadowphoenix

Answers:

3) Is a matter of choice but in my opinion I prefer minor blood rune.

Hope this help you Lusciious

If you're just going to have 14 blood you might aswell use an E/N orders. OoV should always be run with 16 blood, it helps with sacrificing anyway, to have less health.

Yes, with enough energy, corpses will become instant regen-pools on demand.

Moving onto weapon spells:
You are underestimating the AI's power. Imagine that this bot is spamming tab all the time, and whenever someone does not have a weapon spell on them while spamming tab, it will designate you a weapon.

The only time your Splinter may be replaced is by Nightmare, which have healing properties and, if your health is low, will replace splinter.

Artificial intelligence are smarter than you think.

Lusciious

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05 Feb 2010 at 13:54 - 60

no no . what i mean by the weapon spells question is that if he casted splinter on you, would he cast another weapon spell on you for no apparent reason ?

Here's what i'm having a dilemma about .

OotV Channelling + 1 healer hench + 3 physical hench

OotV Restoration + 4 physical hench

SoS Channelling + 4 physical hench .

Which one is better ?

Edit: How would Well of Blood be good when it's fighting for corpses against the MM ? I don't like micro-ing so yeah ..

HigherMinion

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05 Feb 2010 at 14:42 - 61

05 Feb 2010 at 21:14 - 62

MasterSasori

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i have no energy problems spamming OotV . i meant spamming prot spells

Necros shouldn't be spamming Prot. They should be busy keeping OoV up. ER Infuser is for the prot spamming.

Quote:

that's why we use infuse like you said earlier .

Just because a ER Infuser CAN keep the HP up doesn't mean it should. Losing a third of HP from Awaken and OoV is unnecessary and puts the necro at risk.

OotV Nec = SoS Restoration Support Rit > Order of Pain Nec > Others

Quote:

so far i like Well of Power + Order of Pain . The support is good . and i get to use (+ a major and awaken the blood for 17 blood for +7 hp regen from well of power) and of course higher damage from order of pain . no life steal is bad but w.e .. i can't make a good build with OotV -.- I am not seeing why you're having a problem running both.

The only reason why Order of Pain would be dealing less than it's stated damage is against high AL bosses . since Order of Pain = Physical damage like barbs . However a spirit's attack is armour ignoring and added together with Painful Bond, you would see up to 50 damage per spirit . But remember that even though it's armour ignoring, it does not by pass prots so prots like shielding hands would reduce its damage . But also, don't forget that the spirit's attack aren't 200 and that it has to be blocked by prot spirit . they do small damage packs which is good and bad .

I don't recall Shielding Hands to be a real problem in PvE. OoV is armor ignoring so that can't be used in the argument for SoS rit v. OoV. I'm not mentioning any thing about OoP Fury because I don't support it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Look at it . the most harmful prots e.g. RoF, LS, Guardian, Aegis and against spirit attacks also affect OotV .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

a SoS Restoration Rit is the best . Sorry . Just proven it over and over again ...

SoS + Painful Bond + 47 damage x 5 splinter weapon + Heals > OotV OoV has huge potential as well. Mass physical AoE attacks such as Barrage/Whirlwind/Scythes trigger OoV multiple times.

OoV also heals and the life becomes significant when there is heavy pressure.

It is also not as if OoV cannot run splinter or any of the other rit weapon spells. They are easily one of the most customizable heroes.

Look . with a hybrid SoS Rit, you don't have to get another healer . that means you get to bring 4 physicals . and this means that SoS wins

We want to make the most out of mark of pain . not OotV . Against high AL foes mainly bosses, we have painful bond + 3 spirits . against normal foes, we have a very strong splinter weapon . and henchmen don't always have 25/33% ias . neither do casters with spears . You can bring 4 physicals so SoS wins? You're asking for a wipe. Are you serious that a SoS rit is supposed to be enough of a healer to replace a dedicated one? Even if the other one is an infuser, that team will be having great difficulty in higher PvE. If it isn't higher PvE then your heroes doesn't matter enough to go into detail and specifics.

Lusciious

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05 Feb 2010 at 22:34 - 63

OoV has huge potential as well. Mass physical AoE attacks such as Barrage/Whirlwind/Scythes trigger OoV multiple times.

That's single aoe attack . yes i know OoV triggers more than once but you're still hitting each foe for 1 time . My 14 channelling splinter > your 10 channelling splinter .

damage difference ? 12 ? OotV takes a longer time to cast than Splinter .

And i have 3 x 50 armour ignoring damage every 2 seconds that is only affected by prots . Can a party of 8 physicals do that high ? you might say that all of them have IAS but how can healers have IAS ? Bows with IAS don't attack much faster than normal .

150 / 8 = roughly 20. yes swords, axes, spears can attack faster than spirits .

Lets say you have 2 physical heroes + you + a healer hero and my team of 4 casters (MoP Nuker, ER Renewal, OoV Channelling Nec, MM) = 8 physicals

Chances are your heroes would have to constantly be on IAS + no blind to beat 150 additional damage. And your heroes would have to be warriors in order to achieve this . Rangers with 33% IAS cannot attack twice in 2 seconds. Don't forget that my splinter does higher damage and your warriors have to run around when changing targets. my spirits don't .

You keep talking about higher PvE yet you don't know the importance of HP ?

Quote:

ust because a ER Infuser CAN keep the HP up doesn't mean it should. Losing a third of HP from Awaken and OoV is unnecessary and puts the necro at risk Alright then . We shall not use Awaken the blood and the nec shall only use OoV when it is at full hp . and my ER infuser will not help . That would reduce your DPS by how much ? How long does it take to regen 17% of your life back ? Okay maybe you don't have to wait till your full hp . just let the nec sacrifice itself to death ?

Another problem is ER protters don't spam as fast as human ER healers . Infuse someone and if was a target of the spike then good bye . I've seen my ER protter do nothing after an infuse . why ? and even if he did something, there would be a time when he would not have ER up . or maybe ER was stripped . How is he gonna get his own hp back ?

The purpose of Infuse is to catch spikes ? Do heroes know that ? They'd rather infuse a minion then to keep their own hp up -.-

OotV Nec = SoS Restoration Support Rit > Order of Pain Nec > Others i agree with this . however i find SoS rits to be at the top .

The SoS Restoration Rit have 2 wide party heals which adds up to 200 hp . 172 hp spike heal and a 100+ condition heal . I think that is more than enough to survive any form of pressure whatsoever and that it can replace a dedicated healer .

IMO, an ER protter = 1 1/3 healer . so i just need another 2/3 healer would suffice . you only need 2 healers .

3/3 healers = dedicated healers .

2/3 healers = hybrid but leans more to the healing side .

4/3 or 1 1/3 = very strong healer .

Besides, how long do you plan on taking to kill ? Pull properly and you wouldn't have a problem . And you have spirits helping to boost your damage . You don't take 10 mins to kill a balanced group of 8 . Cast enfeebling blood on physicals and target the castor in the middle .

Yes i do not deny the fact that spirits have low hp . but get spirit leech aura and armour of unfeeling and your problems is solved .

please correct my mistakes if you find any .

MasterSasori

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06 Feb 2010 at 07:39 - 64

That's single aoe attack . yes i know OoV triggers more than once but you're still hitting each foe for 1 time . My 14 channelling splinter > your 10 channelling splinter .

Multiple hits = large life steal chunk. If you are running a Rit primary for SoS, it should be at 16. My GDW> your lvl 16 splinter weapon.

Quote:

damage difference ? 12 ? OotV takes a longer time to cast than Splinter .

Splinter goes on one person. OoV goes on 8.

Quote:

You keep talking about higher PvE yet you don't know the importance of HP ? No you don't know the importance of HP or you wouldn't be suggesting a minor on the rit. It is easy to run a superior rune in PvE because there are no true, targeted spikes. The vast majority of damage can be easily protected and thus, running a minor rune is a waste.

And i have 3 x 50 armour ignoring damage every 2 seconds that is only affected by prots . Can a party of 8 physicals do that high ? you might say that all of them have IAS but how can healers have IAS ? Bows with IAS don't attack much faster than normal .

That's assuming that the spirits are placed correctly and aren't on recharge and aren't dead. Heroes don't do as much damage with their spirits as people do because they position it horribly so damage isn't always being dealt. They also die easier because the spirits can't be moved, the hero casts the spirits in a dangerous area, and their spawning is lower due to the att split into restoration. If humans aren't using their split into restoration, which is very frequent, it's into communing with AoU or at least more spirits.

I also don't know what retard would bring a party of 8 physical to a team unless its paragons. But yes, physicals using AoE can do higher and they can also add in KD, either from themselves or GDW. An example - 100lolz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Lets say you have 2 physical heroes + you + a healer hero and my team of 4 casters (MoP Nuker, ER Renewal, OoV Channelling Nec, MM) = 8 physicals You do realize that the build of "your team" is what Higher Minion and I have been using for a while right? And wait a minute - where is your SoS rit in this group? Would you mind explaining why I would be bringing 8 physicals?

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Chances are your heroes would have to constantly be on IAS + no blind to beat 150 additional damage. And your heroes would have to be warriors in order to achieve this . Rangers with 33% IAS cannot attack twice in 2 seconds. Don't forget that my splinter does higher damage and your warriors have to run around when changing targets. my spirits don't . My heroes aren't physical. I've never tried running all physicals with 1 OoV and I do not intent to do so either. You also didn't mention where your SoS rits fit into your team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

Alright then . We shall not use Awaken the blood and the nec shall only use OoV when it is at full hp . and my ER infuser will not help . That would reduce your DPS by how much ? How long does it take to regen 17% of your life back ? Okay maybe you don't have to wait till your full hp . just let the nec sacrifice itself to death ? I'm not saying that the necro shouldn't use OoV when the life isn't full and it's not as if it does it anyway - the hero consistently uses OoV, often when the health is dangerously low. However, the 17% and 33% is a huge difference when saccing life and the extra life steal from OoV at 18 instead of 16 isn't worth it. If the pressure steps in, the ER can't always save the necro's ass. If the OoV kicks the bucket, then you've just lost your Red Bar Up right there.

i agree with this . however i find SoS rits to be at the top .

The SoS Restoration Rit have 2 wide party heals which adds up to 200 hp . 172 hp spike heal and a 100+ condition heal . I think that is more than enough to survive any form of pressure whatsoever and that it can replace a dedicated healer . People don't use restoration SoS rits because N/Rt restores just fine and the typical hero SoS is a dedicated damage dealer with decent secondary heals. Is it strong enough to survive any form of pressure? No. They're hardy but there is little to no difference between that and the N/Rt. What N/Rt lacks in stronger heals, the necro makes up in energy. Since your rit is probably also using PwK, the energy bar is even smaller and after a single painful bond and a splinter, energy is almost up.

Yes i do not deny the fact that spirits have low hp . but get spirit leech aura and armour of unfeeling and your problems is solved .

please correct my mistakes if you find any . Far from it.

Unless you plan to split your atts into 4, you can't go communing for AoU. Use SLA and you've just taken up a slot of the incredibly full rit bar. At best you must take out a heal, which is a bad investment on your secondary healer.

The ideal split is 12 channel, 11 restoration, 6 spawning. Even with this split, spirits are still going to die. Spirit life and armor is too low, they have no heal, spirits can't be repositioned and positioning is often bad in the first place. If you're not convinced, watch Xandra the next time you do Forgewight.

Lusciious

Krytan Explorer

Join Date: Jan 2009

I'm from Singapore but i live in Shanghai ATM

Order of [Thay]

06 Feb 2010 at 08:16 - 65

It looks like this is going to lead into a very big argument so firstly.. let me clarify something.

If i have offended you in whatsoever way, do accept my sincere apologies. I happen to be ignorant .

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My GDW> your lvl 16 splinter weapon.

Your GDW does not do AOE attack . Neither does GDW work on yourself .

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Splinter goes on one person. OoV goes on 8.

Dont forget you're comparing an elite with a non elite .

How bout SoS + Painful Bond + Splinter (14 channelling) against OoV (16 blood) + Splinter (10 channelling)?

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You do realize that the build of "your team" is what Higher Minion and I are using right? And wait a minute - where is your SoS rit in this group? Would you mind explaining why I would be bringing 8 physicals?

The SoS Rit would replace an OoV Nec .

Shouldn't a team with a lot of physical support be filled with physicals ? and by 8 physicals, i also mean casters + spears . you probably misunderstood what i meant .

anyway,

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No you don't know the importance of HP or you wouldn't be suggesting a minor on the rit. It is easy to run a superior rune in PvE because there are no true, targeted spikes. The vast majority of damage can be easily protected and thus, running a minor rune is a waste.

Why do they suggest you to get as high hp as possible in the survivor talk page of GWW ? I quote ...

Quote: . A high health not only improves your general survivability, but also makes you a less desirable target for the monster AI. I guess if what you're saying .. that there are no true, targeted spike then what i've bolded is complete BS ? And how would a single prot spirit be able to save your team from wide party AoE damage from an Ele boss ?

Proper positioning ? Yeah . So what is proper positioning ?

Quote: My point I was arguing with you is that it won't matter much if there is a 17% sac in life, but a heavy 33% sac is too high, even with an Infuser. There may not be much of a problem for some places but if the pressure is relatively high, the ER can't always save the necro's ass. If the OoV kicks the bucket, then you've just lost your Red Bar Up right there. where did 33% sac come from ? just so you know, awaken the blood just increases sacrifice by 50% . 17 x 1.5 = 26% an infuser has a 50% loss of current hp from infuse .

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I didn't quote the rest of your response on ER infusers because it doesn't pertain to anything I'm talking about and I have no idea why you added it in. Apparently neither do i . I was probably thinking about 50% sac and how humans can catch spikes better than heroes . since the 50% sac is i guess considered a spike .

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I'm not saying that the necro shouldn't use OoV when the life isn't full and it's not as if it does it anyway - the hero consistently uses OoV, often when the health is dangerously low. However, the 17% and 33% is a huge difference when saccing life and the extra life steal from OoV at 18 instead of 16 isn't worth it. You state that the extra life steal from OoV at 18 and 16 (sup runes) or even from 16 and 14 (minor runes) isn't worth it since it's only 2 more right ? And health sacrificed increased from 17 to 26. an additional 9% . How much is 9% ? if you had 600 hp, 9% would be 54 hp. a total of 156 hp (600 * 0.26) .

Now tell me . A superior rune increases blood magic from 14 to 16 . An additional of 2 more life steal . How much hp do you lose from using a superior rune ? 75 . That is constant life gone . Your maximum hp is reduced . so 525 left . and if you used OoV (17% sac), you lose another 89 hp (525 * 0.17). 75 + 89 = ? 164 hp .

You lose even more hp than i do with a constant loss of 75 hp . And you find that better ? So my minor blood nec + awaken the blood ( 16 blood ) loses less health than your superior blood nec w/o awaken the blood . Care to explain ? whats more, You say that 9% extra health sac is not worth it for that 2 more life steal . so why would you want constant 75 hp loss from using that sup rune ?

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People don't use restoration SoS rits because N/Rt restores just fine and the typical hero SoS is a dedicated damage dealer with decent secondary heals. Is it strong enough to survive any form of pressure? No. They're hardy but there is little to no difference between that and the N/Rt. What N/Rt lacks in stronger heals, the necro makes up in energy. Since your rit is probably also using PwK, the energy bar is even smaller and after a single painful bond and a splinter, energy is almost up. Don't forget that an SoS rit damages whereas N/Rt doesn't . No i don't use PwK . and even if i did, i have spirit siphon . That's rits new energy management skill .

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Heroes don't do as much damage with their spirits as people do because they position it horribly so damage isn't always being dealt. Apparently, i don't prot myself and go into a group . I let them come to me . With the attack radius of spirits, bad positioning doesn't always mean it's a bad thing .

Edit: Yes, I've finally come to the conclusion, due to you countering everything i say about SoS Rits, that an OoV is better than an SoS Restoration Rit . However, i still feel that a 14 BM OoV is better than a 16 BM OoV . unless you can prove my calculations wrong .

MasterSasori

Desert Nomad

Join Date: Dec 2007

USA

[Thay]

R/Mo

06 Feb 2010 at 09:37 - 66

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Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

I'm not offended by anything but the hp comment. Consider it dropped since there is no point arguing about it.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Your GDW does not do AOE attack . Neither does GDW work on yourself .

The purpose of using GDW with physicals is to let the Physicals with the AoE abuse it to the greatest possibility. 100 blades, whirlwind, scythe attacks, barrage are all begging for GDW to be used. Splinter is incredibly powerful and is one of the biggest pros for any channeling user, but GDW still beats it out despite its drawbacks when abused.

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Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

How bout SoS + Painful Bond + Splinter (14 channelling) against OoV (16 blood) + Splinter (10 channelling)?

The SoS Rit would replace an OoV Nec .

OoV is customizable to anything you want, but switching it out with SoS can change the team significantly despite having similar properties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Shouldn't a team with a lot of physical support be filled with physicals ? and by 8 physicals, i also mean casters + spears . you probably misunderstood what i meant .

In that case, every team in gw should be 8 physicals because spear+shield set is incredibly useful for armor, hp, and adren gaining purposes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Why do they suggest you to get as high hp as possible in the survivor talk page of GWW ? I quote ... If you are going for survivors, you should get to r3 before doing any high end PvE. Otherwise you're asking for trouble because it don't matter if you have the best team in gw, you're still going to die if your dog trips over your router and you dc.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

I guess if what you're saying .. that there are no true, targeted spike then what i've bolded is complete BS ? And how would a single prot spirit be able to save your team from wide party AoE damage from an Ele boss ? What you highlighted is not BS but it can be misleading.

I'm not sure whether or not you are referring to survivability as in not wanting to wipe or the title. If its the title, you should probably have your hero's HP lower than yours.

Otherwise if you're talking about team survival, then know that the general behavior of the AI is to attack those with not only least hp but weakest armor and closest proximity. The AI does not automatically switch and all target the character with the least hp. So although there is no spike, there is still large general damage swinging in your direction and the party member with the least hp or armor is most prone to death.

Quote: Originally Posted by Lusciious View Post

Proper positioning ? Yeah . So what is proper positioning ? Proper positioning is something as simple as common sense such as not setting up SoS down a hill or behind a rock. Unfortunately heroes, don't always get wind of that. People don't realize how important it is because they just Summon Spirit the spirits away when the area is inconvenient for them. Otherwise they'd realize how much putting a spirit in a certain position matters. Unless you flag them back or have a spear/shield set, they tend to come into the fray of battle if you get too close to the monsters and they begin summoning them there where every monster and its mother can start trampling the hell out of the spirit. Spirits automatically attack the creature thats endangering it and does not leave you enough time to call out a target for the spirits to follow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lusciious

where did 33% sac come from ? just so you know, awaken the blood just increases sacrifice by 50% . 17 x 1.5 = 26% an infuser has a 50% loss of current hp from infuse . Yes I meant 26%. I don't know where the 33% came from. A 17% cut in life is significant but a larger increase starts to become dangerous and the infuser is more inclined to infuse the necro. In all, this risk is unnecessary as the benefits do not outweigh the risks.

You lose even more hp than i do with a constant loss of 75 hp . And you find that better ? So my minor blood nec + awaken the blood ( 16 blood ) loses less health than your superior blood nec w/o awaken the blood . Care to explain ? whats more, You say that 9% extra health sac is not worth it for that 2 more life steal . so why would you want constant 75 hp loss from using that sup rune ? A 14 with awaken =/=16 blood magic because it take up a slot unnecessarily and as an enchantment, it can be removed. The constant 75 hp loss isn't as important because the real danger comes from the sudden fluctuation in life loss. Though it is obvious that 25%>17%, you have to consider that you are actually losing more than that percentage with awaken the blood because max hp are not the same as 14 should have 75 hp higher. Every use of OoV is a risk and a 25% change from an even higher hp will require more heal and time from a healer and closer attention. In addition, it is likely that OoV necro is probably going to be under PS so the lower hp isn't as significant as the majority of the dangerous damage will be over the 10% anyway.

Quote: i never really thought of it that way . that's for enlightening me in that area .

Don't forget that an SoS rit damages whereas N/Rt doesn't . No i don't use PwK . and even if i did, i have spirit siphon . That's rits new energy management skill . It depends on what the N/Rt does. Although the SoS rit does damage, it is still primarily a damage dealer and thus, will not focus its entire attention to healing. The bigger problem is that SoS rit, like all heroes, run out of energy. SS is a godsend, but I've caught the rits using SS too often to net less energy than what they started off with before casting the spell.