Mesmers vs Necromancers in PvE - which one needed buff?

Nothing is irrelevant and I discriminate everything. Discrimination is the basis of wisdom.


Anyway, discussion over as far as I care, I'm off to play my new OP character.

It's completely irrelevant, and you discriminate everything because you're a narrow minded twit.
open mindedness is the basis of wisdom, discrimination leads to the narrow minded stupidity found in this thread.

Linking the mes dude! doesnt look gay at all!



*gloves are for waving in peoples faces to make them go all whoooooooaa...

ONtopic: mesmers dont need to look any better or any less "gay looking".
Infact the female mesmers need to look LESS like leather clad biker ho's if anything

*seems i got carried away thinkin this was almost the show your armour thread

You shouldn't discriminate stupid or narrow minded, it makes you look like a hypocrit.

There are two ways to fix this:
1. the right way
2. the easy way

The right way means that all classes get a point. This goes beyond the mesmer issue. This can only be done by reworking PvE. And this is something that, based on the updates we are getting, will probably not happen. Because it takes too much work and because everything they've been doing for the last few years is in the complete opposite direction that would have to be taken to fix the game this way.
And then there is the easy way. That means you buff the mesmer's damage output (since damage wins PvE), putting the mesmer in the same league as other godly classes. The mesmer issue now becomes the dervish or the ranger issue. Considering that this is how they've been dealing with PvE - for instance, we used to have "the ritualist issue" - buffing the best classes instead of the worst ones doesn't make sense.
Unless, of course, they are too dumb to be aware of the issue.
In which case - this thread is MORE than needed.

Been seriously lazy, you would think it take the easy option eh?

Well i would but ONLY if we cant have the right option.

Id rather my playing field was a little lumpy (never be level )than off at the gradient it is atm.

They tried with VoR+CoP, they failed. Back to normal.
Random buffing a ill-conceived profession doesn't make any sense either. It's a waste of resources, while Blood Magic and Tactics needed a rework and maybe there's even someone in this game who's gonna experience those buff. Since, you know, as it was scientifically proved (?) in this thread, no one plays the Mesmer even as a secondary because they "suck"...

Buffing Blood Magic and Tactics and buffing the Mesmer aren't alternatives. Blood Magic and Tactics needed a rework. A simple and easy one, so they went for it. The Mesmer profession desperately need one, but it is probably beyond sight and overcomplicated for them and for their lacklustre resources, unless they go for some half-baked random buff here and there just to please you (again, just like VoR in 2008).

So yes, you can make a matter of principle out of this. My conclusion is that they can't manage their game and their priorities - we knew it - but think that SOME update was better than NO UPDATE at all.

Those look pretty homosexual to me. It's the emo hair, I think, combined with that moustache and their general pose.

*hypocrite

and i fail to see how pointing out narrow minded dipshittery makes me one. but i guess when you have no argument whatsoever you have to resort to saying what is essentially NOU.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm

Check this out. It might prove useful when trying to understand this thread.

If you were really open-minded, you wouldn't be calling it "dipshittery," amirite?

Those, Mesmers. Look. FABULOUUUUUUUS!!

If you say so, but open mindedness doesn't mean blind tolerance.

even funnier is that i didn't use the word "discriminate" anywhere in my post. the word i used was "discredit".

Talk about discrimination, when he could tell a (virtual) man's sexuality by the way he wears his hair.

The Josip is just too lazy to realize what the real problem is, or, he likes taking advantage of the real problem. And Upier missed the real solution, his 2 are not the only options available. Mesmer can handle PvE fine, few people argue against that. However, other classes do it better (is the only arguement I see being made). Although I wouldn't mine some MINOR buffs to Mesmer, I have absolutely no issues with using mine. Even when VoR was the flavor of the month, I rarely used it, because I had other builds that worked just fine.

So, since Mesmer works fine for PvE, you could easily say it is well balanced (well, not perfectly). So if other classes are doing things better, there is the problem. Few people with any knowledge of the game would ignore the power creep that entered the game. Some classes/skills become TOO powerful. Some got nerfed, some didn't. Considering I dont' use many of the OP skills/builds, I'd be more than happy to see them nerfed. If that happened, the things a Mesmer can do becomes more valuable. SY isn't maintainable without 2-3 people dedicated to it? That means damage needs to be reduced from somewhere. Mesmer has a lot of options to reduce damage (interrupts, casting delay, movement reduction, etc.). And that is just one of the things I'll mention. If you really need to know more of what the Mesmer can do, you need to learn how to play the class.

This update did a few things I was pleased with. SF an 600/Smite were too widespread and powerful. Slowing them down was important. Things can still get done, but now it takes more brain power.... something few people have been using for the past year or so. And I love how people like to claim Soul Reaping is OP. I remember quite well when it was completely open, you could gain as much energy as you wanted as long as things were dying (pets, spirits, undead, players, monsters, etc.) and there was no time restraints. They added the restraints and the world ended.... so many people quite the game because they destroyed their favorite character (same happened with the 10 minion limit). People did quit because of it, and people will quit because of this build. I don't care though, because the people who care about the game, and are worth playing with know how to adapt.

Mesmer really does not have problems in PvE. The problem is that people are comparing Mesmer to other classes which have OP skills/builds.

If your mesmer was straight, he'd have picked a different profession.

Problems?



Which takes more brainpower? Me sitting there casting spells for 600/smite as I clear the zone, and sometimes requiring a bit of reflexes or timing?

Or me sitting there watching discord heroes clear the zone?

I wear a moustache and a beard just like him irl. Are you trying to scientifically demonstrate that I'm homosexual and useless because whatever I do some other people can do better?

2-3 Warriors can mantain SY! on a party while still doing damage (Dragon's Slash builds). That's admitedly a good point.

But, as SOMEONE in this thread would have said. "SY!" is PvE-only, so it's not really an option.

VoR was a PvP nerf. They didn't even bother making a PvE version.
CoP was overpowered.
The problem?
The problem is when you have ONE skill that represents ALL that the class has to offer. And not only that - you then don't PvE-balance it (the way that SoS was just PvE-balanced (=made weaker but still completely over the top in terms of REAL balance)), but rather you just trash it.
That's like the decision to make Blood stronger and then all they'd do would be to come out with the new Barbed Signet. Pick 50 mesmer skills, drop their recharge, overbuff their damage and we'll get somewhere.

Now mix this with the fact that damage in this game is completely out of control, which means that mesmer options should ALSO be out of control. The stronger you make other guys, the more problems you are going to get from the mesmer because of how the guy is designed. So A.Net either needs to rework this crap, or they'll need to accept that the only way to make the mesmer viable is to let him blow up PvE or they'll need to come to terms that they have a shit-load of users who not only see what kind of shitty job they are doing but we'll also call them out on it.

I don't think the old Visions of Regret was overpowered at all. It did decent damage and didn't conflict with mesmers skills. Other professions are going in the exact opposite way in where they're improving synergy with their own skills and with other professions.

One mesmer may like shutdown and interrupts, but the other mesmer players may want damage or a mix. How is it other professions can do many things while you want an extreme focus for one? That isn't fair to the players who enjoy the various aspects of a profession. There's more to a mesmer than PvP.

I'm all for slowing the game, buffing, or reworking. It's pretty crazy that mesmer, paragon, and dervish players will all have sit around while the gap between usefulness and power grows wider.

Necrosis no longer works for keeping Lyssa's Aura up, Arcane Echo for spam, or Mantra of Recovery for filler casting.

I was thinking how it would be interesting if the mesmer was for casters what the necro is for physicals.
For instance - have a MoP like hex that deals AoE damage, when the foe is the target of a spell. Or a Barbs-like hex that causes the foe to take additonal damage when the hexed foe is the target of spells. And if the numbers would be nicely balanced, this could mean that the mesmer would be a better addition to the party than another direct damage dealing caster YET at the same time it would prevent CoP-like spikes.
And then, at the same time, also introduce some skills that act as Jos's proposed Arcane Languor change (just don't go NEAR AL because that's my absolutely favourite elite in the whole game, despite how obscenely useless it is! ) and focus more on shutdown.

That way the guy doesn't change into a chaos nuker, yet still becomes a nice addition to the party.
Oh, and WW's delay of damage should be 1 sec instead of 3.

PvE of course.

Now, can we please bridge the first page of this thread with this post, so we can actually have something reasonable about this topic to talk about?

That is a nice idea. Would also fit the existing distinction, the Mesmers dealing with Energy (Energy draining) while Necromancers deal with... err... Health (Life stealing).

I like this idea better than any other I have heard. There are quite a few skills that could fit into that kind of a role based solely on their name (Overload for example). Problem is that something that widespread (you won't want 2-3 skills doing this, you will need 10-15 probably) will require a PvP change as well. When you think of all the 'physical support' spells the Necro has (Barbs, MoP, Orders, etc) it would be half-assed to give 2-3 spells to Mesmer for a 'caster support' setup.

I doubt Anet would be willing to do something that drastic at this point, but it is at least a novel idea with some potential for the game.

I like upier's idea as well.

The trick is still tying it to FC, so the skills don't just get thrown on a Necro's bar. Because if you are changing that many skills, they're not all going to be in the FC line.

Pretty good idea Upier has proposed ditto your thoughts on tying it to FC so primary mesmers can use it most effectively.

A little buffing to the monsters in the game would have been good too.

The best way to get players to run a mesmer is to create targets that are all but impossible to take down except by mesmer skills.

They should have taken the rock paper scissors game idea and applied it right across the board then all classes would have a role in pve.

Make an undead with fast health regeneration to all but holy damage and you encourage Smiting Monks and Dervishes.
That idea could have been taken to apply to all damage types and weapons.

There are resistances to various damage types in the game but they are still easily taken down by simply hitting them.
Put something in the game that you can hit with swords axes hammers and Daggers from dawn till dusk and all you get is a blunt weapon and a tired arm and you will get players thinking of alternatives.

mesmers are fine. mesmer-proponents have this thinly veiled agenda in terms of wanting to be like other caster classes (ie cast and forget) instead of what they are supposed to be.. which is disruptive in crucial moments. of course, this doesnt translate well over to pve, since pve consists of /faceroll... but that's just too bad, isnt it?

just had to quote this as an example of the frothing-in-the-mouth insanity people have about their pet classes. There is not one monster in the game where you must have X class's skills in order to defeat it... and somehow we should have this for mesmers?

If you were to read posts by various people who've posted about mesmers, you'd better understand the situation. How are mesmers anywhere near to the diversity, usefulness, or power of other professions?

People are bringing up ideas (good and bad) because they're needing change.

This thread is about PvE. One should have the option between damage, disruption till the foes have been defeated, shutdown (conditions), or inbetween. I've said this before indirectly, but professions aren't locked into one particular niche thing.

What people don't understand is that the difficulties inherent to the mesmer class are from forces beyond the control of the developers.

GW was first made as a PvP game. The first classes were balanced with respect to this. What made mesmers so fearsome in PvP (disrupting the other team/disabling members at key moments) also makes them relatively worthless in PvE.

PvE play, at least at this day in age, values vicious /faceroll ability. Sit back, spam your crap, win, move on. There is no room or place for mesmers that best exemplifies their strengths. Instead, you have mesmers trying to be like other classes (eles, necros) if not by the skills they use, but by the type of skills they use.

If you give mesmers lots of cheap hexes that do damage, you've turned them into a necromancer (curses). If you give them a lot of AoE/single target damage without all of conditionality involved, you've turned them into elementalists. At what point does the mesmer, necro, and ele end and begin? Should they be differentiated simply with regards to the special abilities their primary class gives them?

Some of the ideas in this thread sound interesting, but 1) I dont see how you'd make pvp versions that didnt just break the game, unless you were going to Smiter's Boon it, and 2) Does it really freakin matter anyways? Just roll your boring, average AP/YMLAD with 3 necromancers and join the rest of us in our idiotic /faceroll dance. :| Oh. At least you get to cast AP faster... haha...

edit: they are not bringing up ideas because mesmers need change. they saw other people get a cookie and now they want a piece of the cookie too. and they've been raised in an environment where the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

Mesmers have always had hexes. Since necromancers and mesmers have come from the same expansion, the wannabe thing is flawed. Said it twice before, but there is more to a mesmer and they can have their own PvE advantages if given the ability. By mentioning AP, you've indirectly admitted there is more to a mesmer than "crucial moments."

While those options are viable in general nm play, in HM or elite areas most of the options become obsolete or difficult to maintain without resorting to bots.

My main on guru is a rit, even though I changed it to a mesmer over a year and a half ago. Profiling isn't a valid argument.

uhm I mentioned AP because its something any class can do. Mesmer hexes as a rule have always been far more conditional, and their effects are better seen in protracted battles, rather than the 15 second affairs that pve encounters are. Pretty sure I never said anything about there being less to mesmers, so I think you're talking to someone else here. And anyone can have advantages if given to them, so I don't really see where you're going with that statement.

Here.

As I've been saying, you can't just make it a matter of "priority" and assume that Mesmers (and Rangers, Dervishes, Paragons) haven't been/aren't being looked into just because this specific update had no significant change for them. To each his own. The Mesmer is so much in the need for a change that they'll probably need a dedicated update for it.

Who cares why mesmers haven't been looked into? Gill Halendt, warrior.

I couldn't care less myself about promises and 'looking into'. I bet they are not making GW2 the same way, by 'looking into' it for several years without results. I bet GW2 production actually has results from month to month. Imagine if you were investor giving GW2 team millions of dollars and after several years you come to see the product and they have nothing but "well, we have been looking into it.. we even made few changes and quickly reverted them back. What? Right now? Well we got nothing but we're looking into it".


You know what's good thing with economy and entrepreneurship? Nonsense opinions and stances don't cash in. Results do. And that's what this thread is about - not whether ANet cares or not, or when they will do something, it's about "something has been done but oh wait where's mesmer?"


So the first classes were balanced with respect to PvP? Ok. So PvP being equal, in PvE, elementalists were plowing the areas while mesmers were struggling? Ok.

But since then we got PvE skills. It's been years since those. PvP in no way stands in a way of PvE balance. It's not that ANet doesn't have time to do proper balance, as seen here. They buffed many things. They concluded that necromancer wasn't good enough so they buffed it more. Or they concluded it's ok to have super-necro and super-sucky-mesmer.

PBlock nerf says hello, so nerfing mesmer skills somehow comes as priority.
And to all people saying that mesmers do fine in pve can you logically explain why others professions (necros and rits ) receive buffs, you will have hard time proving that theses classes weren't doing fine in comparison to mesmers. And to those saying that buffing mesmers will be just bandaid or some something like that , well don't you worry about it, we are already there: AP , i doubt that any imaginable buff to mesmer skills could compete with that.

Ah, I see. So skill updates must come in batches or nothing.

Toning down PBlock was indeed prioritary and rather easy: its problem was the duration of the blackout inflicted -> the duration has been lowered. It was so easy that it was probably thought out and tested in a week, after the Preview.

I don't think ANY change to a class as the Mesmer should take just a week, unless you really love half-baked, poorly conceived updates. They need GREAT CARE, not a week of rushed, random buffs just to keep you pleased.

Read the statement by Regina again. They've been considering buffs to underused classes, but any change wasn't throughly tested before the update went live. Sure, they could keep on testing and delay the balance update further...

Do you really believe all they've been doing in the last few months could make it into the patch?

Rits doing fine? Are we playing the same game?

Even NOW, Rits are pretty much relegated to ONE viable build - Spirit Spam - and one, two elites - SoS and, at a lesser extent, SoGM. Fast Casting shines when compared to Spawning Power. The fact that Rits are now in vogue and SoS is overpowered - and, guess what, THAT was toned down with the latest update! - DOESN'T mean Rits are fine.

This again? Envious much?

The Josip, Mesmer.

Now I got it. THAT'S your problem. You've probably never, ever played ANYTHING ELSE than your Mesmer and you're envious of other classes, since other classes don't "suck" as much.

Assumptions is all you can come up with, so, let's play your assumption game.

I'm a Warrior and I obviously DON'T care about Mesmers, since I only play Warriors and the Warrior is not only perfectly fine, but probaly one of the best classes in the game. Differently from the Mesmer, it was well tought out since the start and it has a purpose.

So, The Josip, Mesmer. Mesmers suck -> so do you. Enjoy your game.

This thread was taking a nice turn after the suggestions by upier (which actually made sense). You spoiled it all with more rants. Thanks a lot.

EDIT - Oh, BTW, changed my profile. It now says "Me" instead of "W", maybe now you'll pay attention to what I'm saying instead of whining and overexaggerating your protest with dubious arguments, assumptions, pointless attacks.

exaggerating and crying won't get you anywhere.. srsly. if you're going to build an argument try one that doesn't make the reader automatically roll their eyes.

oh protip: eles suck in HM. increased armor really hurts elementalists

Oh, and Mesmers have some of the best, armor ignoring skills in the game, but what do we know...

no no.. we're not on the side of giving mesmers new skills to compensate for some personal shortcoming so we must never have played mesmer, must not have a mesmer character, and must hate anyone who plays mesmer too...

edit: mesmers probably could use some tweaks in the inspiration line pve-wise, but the whole drivel about new skills is stupid, frankly speaking.

Oh and just cause my gurus account says Mo/W does not mean all I have is a monk.. or that my monk is even my main >.>

Tough you have what looks like a Ranger in Elite Druid in your avatar, so you must be the kind of person who thinks that Rangers are better at disruption. Aren't you?

Omg, don't you get it ? I was refering to people that were saying that mesmers don't need buff b/c class is doing fine, they are having fun with it and completed all pve in HM back and forth. Guess, same can be applied to Rits, of course that doesn't mean niether class is fine in pve, but one is actually receving buffs, and it isn't mesmer.