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You can read my reasoning why Heroes won't negatively effect the economy here:

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...&postcount=396

To sum up, if bone dragon staffs lower in price, that's not a bad thing for the economy and for the fantastic majority of players.

There are some decent arguments against 7 hero parties (effects on difficulty, lowering PuG formation frequency, taking focus away from other updates), but economy isn't one of them.

you keep repeating them, but i've already proved them to be untrue. i don't think you understand what it means to be a "multi-player" gamer. you're a "single-player" gamer, and your choices generally only rely on your input. a "multi-player" gamer like me on the other hand, my choices generally rely on my input and the input of everyone else i intend to play with. do you see now where this will start to create problems? the more choices people are given, the more people that will want different things; the more people that will want different things, the more hard it becomes to group together.

To you it might not be, but to others that sell these items on a regular basis it is. a price drops will always hurt people.
basic School economics.
So you want a certain Item. Lets say its at a end dungeon chest.
Now lets take that farm and now use 7 heros. we speed it up and now can do 2 runs in the time it takes to do 1.
So now the farmer has more of these items, due to being able to do it in double the time.
What happens when there is a large amount of a item and so many sellers!?!?
The price will drop because these items are no longer hard to get.
So yes I personally think this does have the potential to hurt the economy,
break it? No of course not, but hurt it yes.
Examples of this happening of course are everywhere through out Guildwars.
Team builds for Elite areas like FOW/UW for example have driven down prices of ecto and shards.(Under 10 Min Uw clear for example)
Now ask yourself what happens when they nerf these teambuilds???
In general do the prices of these items drop or go higher?????

Your just basically saying itll be better cause all expensive items will be able to be purchased by everyone. Communism in Guildwars basically.
Also with these items lowering in price, there wouldnt really be a bigger interest in these areas cause most of the gamers would just go and buy the item as it being so dirt cheap now. A healthy economy is not one that is just filled with players unable to sell a certain item due to the fact everyone has it already. I mean right now in game its hard to sell items, unless its the current E-peen items.

Post below by Daesu
Your talking about something that not all Guildwars players can do.
Not everyone has 2 accounts or wants to play 2 accounts.
If 7 heros get introduced then everyone has the oppurtunity to use it.

I can just get double drop with 6-heroes and 2 characters right now on my 2 computers. All you need is a wireless keyboard on one with them, equipped with non-targeting skills like wards, spirits, minions, and press space bar to follow along after selecting your main character.

I don't need 7 heroes to get an advantage in the economy because I get even more advantage with 6 heroes and 2 players right now. And with people like you complaining about 7 heroes, I can continue to exploit this advantage and maintain my lead. People who has more real life money for hardware wins then.

You literally don't know what you're talking about. I'll show you why:

8-human runs will always be faster because it's economical to use Essences if everyone pitches in, and it's not economical if only 1 player uses 3 to quickly clear 3 levels of a dungeon. In human teams, the dungeon quest reward pays for the Essences, so only the time is spent on a shot at the chest. Besides, Heroes cannot be told to re-cast SF on recharge and maintain Deadly Paradox. There is no chance that 7-hero parties will ever be 2x faster than 8-human speed clears. There is no chance that 7-hero parties will ever be anything but much slower than 8-human speed clears.

If you could order Heroes to clear an entire area out of compass range, and heroes could use PvE skills, and you could afford the consumables, you might have a point.

Economic health is metered by activity and productivity, not by how expensive some things are, or by how rich the richest individuals are. In that sense, if you are expressing that you care about the majority of players and how the economy will be effected, then the truth is, not that much. If you would like to keep expensive things expensive, or make them more so, that's a fine prerogative, but don't pretend that 7-hero parties will ruin the economy because some prices of some prestige items might go down.

You don't seem to understand that if everyone bought one of whatever, that would be an absolute flurry of economic activity, and would be fantastic by any measure. The fact remains that prices wouldn't be effected much, and if they were, it wouldn't be as bad as you think. Everyone already has grawl necklaces and charr carvings, and nobody is complaining that they much merch them because they are having trouble "unable to sell a certain item due to the fact everyone has it already".

I hope that you read this, sleep on it, and attempt a well thought out response. Question your own motives, and let me know what you're thinking. There's no reason this kind of discussion can't be reasonable.

Why would heroes be better than humans? Full human teams are more effective than full hero teams, therefore, you wouldn't really have any special advantage running a full hero team than you would running a full human team. I dont understand what you are getting at here.

You gotta explain me why did heroes get removed from PvP and why we're only able to use 2 crap henchs so ..

Anyway , point is the multi-player doesnt fit with complete inactivity , i.e what gw is for a few months . Even in pve , many players just cannot do some areas without heroes ( many players do play between 1am-9am euro time , but it's completly desert everywhere , how shall they do DoA , Urgoz , HA , GvG , etc..? ( and plz , stop with those " ask guildies and thats it ' , you will have at best 3-4 players online at same ...)

But yes , having 7 heroes allowed would do good for very dead hours , but i dont know if it would be that a good idea on normal hours....( Maybe just allow 7 heroes for some places? )

Wel, look it from this way...

We HAVE 7 hero's... And at that point there are enough people online in your guilds/alli . Now they are asking You, hey where going to Urgozh are you comming. What wil you do.. Say.. No I have my 7 hero's I wil play with them.
or would you say. Yea fun m8.. on my way.

When I had my 7 hero's.. which I realy would like. I wil still go with my guildies
couse that is more fun... And I'll guess that counts for most of us.

Right! That's exactly why computer manufacturers all went to the poorhouse. Computers used to cost millions of dollars, but now you can get one more powerful than those for a couple of hundred. That incredible drop in price hurt the manufacturers and retailers and everyone else involved with selling computers, because price drops always hurt people. The surest sign of a dying economy is dropping prices! I'm always amazed that more people don't realize this. <Smiley captioned for the humor/sarcasm impaired.>

Actually, the guy currently in charge of GW1 developement(John Stumme) stated in a podcast that the reason 7 heros was not added was due to PvP. But thats not an issue so he doesnt see any reason not to have 7 heros. It has nothing to do with making the game too easy.

I also found this quote from an interview.

If a full hero party were to totally break the game Anet would not even consider it. But obvioulsy, they are working out the details as we speak.

7 heros will never steamroll through PvE content better than 8 players.

Take DoA for example, for the longest time its been dominated by caster spike teams. But that requires a minimum of 3 professions of the same type, usually 4. Good luck tryin to get 3 heros to spike DwG, Keystone, or Searing Flames better than a human team. Human players can spam skills, target, avoid aggro, use PvE skills, and manage energy much better than heros. Human players can also split up to make SCs faster. Sure, I have cleared NM DoA with another person and 6 heros. But that takes 2-3 times longer than the current SC times it takes 8 players to clear the area in HM.

Dont forget, its easy to get someone to drop off 3 heros for you in PvE and have 6 heros for yourself. People do it all the time. Anet could easily make your heros leave when you leave the instance, but they dont. Why? because the advantage isnt worth fixing. So, adding one more hero isnt going to change the game. In the case of discordway, its actually better than 6 of your own heros.

EDIT: Im not picking on you specifically Aba, Im also talking to the few players that are anti-full hero party.

May I put my humble opinion in here?

I am part of a small alliance. I like it that way. We are all good friends with real lives out side of the game. Alas, sometimes we can't play together or something comes up, and one of us is left to our own devices. In this case it would be a great thing to have a 7 hero team. I have been in pugs. Had my builds ripped apart and kicked from teams. Do I now want to pug again? No.
So I load up on hero/henchmen and try for the HM stuff I want to complete for my titles. Time and time again fail. Friend logs in, and YAY done.
I would actually like to play the game by myself. Not have to wait for a group that will just kick the bha ranger.*note i do have other builds and have changed at trequest several times to be kicked from a group yet again* Not wait for my friend to log in. And if a 7 hero team will allow me to do that, I am all over it.
Since I am sitting pretty on 12k I could care less about someones e-peen ecto stash, or the current price of a flashy item I will never be able to afford.
If the 7 hero team is allowed, it will give me more incentive to finish my titles, and actually get more enjoyment out of my game.

they will never do a 7 hero team, nuff said

Not directly on the forums, but in the latest interview by KillTenRats:

Ambiguity remains - what's in exploratory development? 7 heroes? "Something else"? Both? - but they're definitely looking into it, and the survey about WiK is further confirmation.

K I give up.
I stated my thought and you all repeated yours.
Though most are just repeated arguements, some are sound.
Thank you all for the interesting chat, though I'm still anti hero in most cases
I've opens up to it for some places(elite ares like urgoz)
So I'll stop there as some people are just taking this
beyond madness, refusinng to believe that it will do nothing to the game aside giving every player a cheerful desposition.

i said it before: back then 7 heroes would harm the game, but little by little, the game has been dying (dying as becoming less active), and people have left

as the game is now, seeing the community, it will no longer harm the game, people may actually come back, instead of leaving
as a matter of fact, someone i know a long time in gw, said a few days ago:
i'll be back if they give us full hero teams

and as he keeps in contact with alot of ex-gw players, he knows they will be back once hs is... kinda important guy to them i guess

i'm both, i would join people ( i am lately, even though he's doing alot i dont even need, like certain dungeons on NM, as i got help with those long ago) and enjoy company

on the other hand, if i dont wanna keep asking for help (and i dislike to do that alot), and if he's not online, i can use the full hero team to do the work he normally does, except for the pve only skills

sorry for repeating certain points, but it seems i had to, as some didnt understand what i meant

players will always be better, because (i'm talking about good players who can do alot) they know what they're doing, and they can either team chat or TS/vent how to work together, and gw has a nice thing which you can do when clicking with your gw mouse arrow on the compass/radar, not to forget the targeting mechanics

7 heroes will fill up the emptyness teams have, thats all it really does
not to forget we can use our heroes's new armors in HoM for GW2 (with the calculator) to unlock more, and that would only be actually nice if we can use more than 3 heroes at a time

for example, i game livia, razah and xandra new armors, while i only use discord (3 necro heroes) so i cant see the new armors of the 2 rit heroes, which i gave them

also, Anet sees it wont harm the game and its community, as they always did things to let people play together, like killing certain farm builds, and nerf overpowered builds, so that people have a harder time, and need people for certain things

i dont even think 7 heroes could do 100% of uw,fow,doa etc, at least not that easily (talking about teams without solo player(s) )
it may be that heroes are AI, so they can react much faster, but they cant really use skills in the order they are supposed to do

like spiritway, i never really saw how it can be so good, as they cant teleport spirits to their locations, and they put up spirits as soon as the battle starts, non matter how far the enemies are, and the recharge will take a while, which is why i use discord, which will change if i can make better teams with 7 heroes (or 5 in kryta, for the wanteds)

oh man, that was some typing and thinking, lol, i hope i didnt go against some rules, i just made my point clearer (hopefully clear enough for most people here)

we just will see who anet will agree with, the ones who say it should come, or the ones who say it kills the game

dont forget that calculator, it'll make 7 hero teams more popular to the ones playing alone, or still trying to get groups in guild/allies, cuz of the amount of people who left

for me, i have a very few friends who arent on all day, who can help/join me, the rest is... busy... all the time o_O

i never looked at HoM, but since i got that calculator, i like to get more (wow, i'll actually become active)
and since i'm at 17 points, i like that jellyfish, which is more (20 i believe)

so 7 heroes will be very welcome (even more than before) since yesterday, lol

{WARNING} the calculator shows what items/pets you get, can be a bad spoiler to some people {end WARNING}

The faculty of playing with other people is what makes a multiplayer game.

Nowhere on the box is stated you MUST team with other people EVERY TIME, and it's been like that for almost 6 years. You know, henchmen were there for a reason...

Pretty much every game allows solo play, be it by spawn/difficulty scaling, AI help and such.

Sorry, I don't care if the developers invented funny acronyms such as COORPG (Cooperative Role-Playing Game) to describe Guild Wars. It's an online game, and it's always been designed to be solo-playable as well as multiplayer.

This is an improvement planned for a game at the end of its life cycle, and it likely won't happen but closer to the release of the sequel. So, if most of the playerbase moves to the new game, good luck with the "multiplayer" aspect...

Tbh I don't question so much the performance of such a scenario.My main issue has always been accessibility.All human runs shouldn't be faster....they should be a prerequisite to access certain content in an MMORPG.

7-Heroes is a key.

That's a fine argument against 7-hero parties. Requiring human interaction for certain achievements isn't an outrageous expectation. I don't think anyone would expect to be able to beat Urgoz or Kannaxi with just heroes, just as I don't think anyone serious about farming would do it with just heroes.

The truth is that if you never roll with other people, some things will be impossible, and even with 7-hero parties, some things will likely remain impossible... just not as many. I can see how many people can think increasing accessibility is good or bad, and I respect both sides.

However, if I was Anet, I would be inclined to increase accessibility because it gives more new content to more people, which may increase their HoM investment, encouraging them to get GW2. Anet knows that players who are against increased accessibility probably already have a strong HoM investment, and will get GW2 anyways. Of course there may be exceptions (some people saying that they feel betrayed), but knowing how the internet works, I'd imagine most are exaggerating their threats and in the end, the numbers would speak clearly.

Basically, if adding 7 heroes can get more people into GW2 than it would drive away, (and there aren't any clearly better alternatives) then they will do it.

Let's say that there is this guy named Bob who wants to do an elite mission. He really wants to do it by himself, as he hates interacting with others. However, due to the lack of henchmen in the outpost, he cannot make a party over the size of 4, which is simply not enough.

You also enter the outpost, and you also want to do the mission. You start recruiting a PUG, and you pick up Bob. Bob really doesn't want to join a PUG but he has no other choice. When the group faces difficulties during the mission, Bob simply leaves.

Was it really a good idea to take Bob? If Bob had the option to bring 7 heroes, he would've simply failed by himself, and your party would've been one leaver less. Everyone would've been spared the frustration.

I know this all sounds fantasy, but I've been to PUGs where half of the players were Bobs. It wasn't fun.

^let's say that there is this guy named bob who gets to play by himself with 7heroes...meanwhile a pug team sits in the outpost for hours and hours looking for someone to fill the last spot 7/8.

Are they really better off with a leaver?

Let's face it, PUGs will get less and less frequent. That shouldn't mean that everyone without an active guild has to stop playing elite content.

Shoot if your team is 7/8 waiting for one more real person to make it 8/8 it is just silly, just grab a hero/hench and go, waste of time waiting for that last person to maybe show up.

Seriously these arguements agaisnt 7 heroes get weaker and weaker every time the topic comes up, all it can do is good at this late stage of GW. Quit whining and find a guild if you love puging so much.

There are many ways to compensate solo vs party play.
They can just do things like better drops or increased gold drops the more people is in, and the PvE skills can only be used by players, and most people will agree that some of those skills make things rather easier.

Right now, if people don't want to wait to play with people they'll just grab the 4 henchmen they think are best, 3 heroes, and go alone.

7 heroes won't really change that.

And this is why I use heroes.

I can't imagine playing Left 4 Dead without people, playing TF2 without my bros feels incredibly hollow, playing Firefight in Halo without homies is dreadfully boring, and Demon's Souls would be no where near as fun without people to play with and/or against.

So why am I so anti-social in Guild Wars?

No denying: There's an interesting appeal in being able to nigh instantly start a mission in GW. However, playing with other people in other games is insanely fun. That should be enough appeal in itself to get me to play with other people.

That's not the case for me with Guild Wars, and that's because that same 'fun' I'm hoping to enjoy is really easy to ruin:

-You take forever in putting together the 'perfect party': Everyone has good builds, everyone's excited, and everyone's polite. But for some reason things don't work out and you get steamrolled. That's a huge discouragement.

-Same thing as above except you get to the final two seconds of the mission before you all mess up and get steam rolled. A much bigger discouragement.

-Someone leaves after the mission starts, and there's nothing you can do besides going on without one person who restarting.

What ANet needed to do was make playing with others a whole lot more forgiving. While they've done a few things to help address this - i.e. EotN no longer restarting the entire mission when everyone dies - there were still a lot of iffy issues.

If I'm given a choice to play with a team of people or a team of bots, I should want to play with people. If not, then there's something wrong.

I am not against pugging, I have been in some really great pugs, and some really sorry ones too (within the last month). But most times I will just grab my heros and hench and go, having 7 heros would just make it a better then having to grab hench.

Quit whining and actually contribute to the debate.

When did any serious argument against 7 heroes involve pugging?Like 7 heroes would effect pugs in any way that wasn't ruined years ago and rolling with guildies is hardly the same.

Edit:

Cool post.

My only rebuttal would be the cheapening of every single title, merit, item, etc in the game.

Non-subscription attains a degree of leniency but WTF do people want and what are they truely arguing for?

An online single player MMORPG?

lol

No , as many people said it , game is dying , and having 7 heroes allowed would be great in order to play at some hours ( especially in pvp).

We are discussing GW yes?

Except that's the ONE thing it doesn't do. So you nerf a skill to uselessness. Guess what, that red dot you're about to kill, yes it's using that now very nerf'd skill.. So you kill it even quicker with the other skills that weren't nerf'd (cos anyone in their right mind doesn't use nerfed skills anymore), and then p*** yourself laughing at how quick the poor shlep died.

No nerfing skills does NOT make the game harder.. cos the monsters use the same fecking skills...

yes it does, because humans know how to use the skill in question with better potential, whereas the ai couldn't. so the effectiveness of the skill/build goes down maybe 40% for a human, but only 10% for ai, thus effectively still being harder.


perhaps i should've included the original post i was replying to because you've taken it a bit out of context. the argument was that heroes would allow bob to play by himself with 7 heroes, while still allowing the pug team he left to play with a full human team. as you pointed out, the "full-human" team now becomes a hybrid human/hero team, which would likely be the most common occurence in gw. the point still stands that full human pug teams will become more rare upon the introduction of 7 heroes.

And this is what I'm trying to argue against here. Those who do not want to PUG have other options even now. Let's revisit Bob the antisocial player for a moment. This time he is in an outpost and would like to vanquish a nearby explorable area. Now you happen to be there again in a party of 7 human players, and you are looking for the last person to fill the remaining slot in order to vanquish a nearby area. Bob acknowledges that you plan to vanquish the same area he does, but being the jerk he is, he decides to recruit 3 heroes and 4 henchmen into his team and go out vanquish the area alone.

The same would have happened if he was allowed to take 7 heroes instead. Nothing would have changed. Fortunately a nice guy named Tim comes along and joins your party because he wants to. Tim doesn't care how many heroes he's allowed to take because he likes to complete in-game tasks in a human team and therefore will join you regardless.

Boy are you just plain wrong. Ok, case in point.. Splinter Weapon. Most (if not all) of the (non-EOTN) NPC's using this skill are in Kurzick lands. Before it was nerfed, a fair few players had trouble with this area, because the Spirit Warden's (and some Dredge) used to chuck this about with gay abandon, and it hurt when all your henchies copped it, cos you'd often get all 6 splinters. Once it was nerfed... well Kurzick land was much easier to complete.

So don't bleet on about how nerfing makes the game harder, it just plain doesn't.

To idealistic imo.

If you present a person...let alone a GAMER with a goal it will always end in the path of least resistance.


You forgot speed, efficiency, economics, build options etc, etc.

H/H is not different to 7 heroes....it's an endless chasm of difference imo.

In L4D it's far easier to set up a single-player game than a multiplayer one, yet it wouldn't be anywhere close to where it is now if it wasn't for the co-op mode (which is further strengthened by the versus mode).

Of course, GW isn't the same type of game - but if that's the reason for co-op being so active in one as opposed to the other, what could those reasons be?

I know what you're saying, but this is all assuming PUGs are more efficient than H/H teams. This is arguable and depends on a lot of factors.

If a player deems H/H more efficient to PUGs already, then presenting him with the option to use 7 heroes will not make a difference. He will choose to go alone either way.

If a player views PUGs to be the most efficient method of doing something, e.g. better than H/H or 7 heroes, then he will always prefer PUGs, again no difference.

However, if someone thinks that PUGs are superior to H/H, but 7 heroes are superior to PUGs, then his decision is indeed swayed by allowing him to use 7 heroes.

Now of course this is over-simplified and doesn't take into account factors like different setups being optimal for different tasks, frustration caused by failure, or the desire to put enjoyment before efficiency, but it is a simple reality model.

Taking into account the various situations that come to my mind, I think that the actual effects of 7 hero teams on PUG frequency would be about as harmful as is the constantly declining player activity over a period of several months.

I dont think you read the statement directly under your quote. Taking what I said out of context.

I even prefer balancing power creep with skill buffs, unless its something like SF or Ursan. Getting skill buffs is just more fun. But, every so often it is necessary to nerf a rediculously OP skill. I dont like the smiters boon route, I'm talking well thought out nerfs, kinda like what they did for SF. SF is still OP imo, but its more balanced than it was.

My main point for bringing skill balance up, is that it should take priority over most of the GW:B updates. That way my Ele wont get laughed at when she tries to do damage in HM Crisis in Cantha. And, when my Derv puts LFG in party search for Crisis in Cantha, the pugs say "add the Derv!".

there are way more bobs than tims in gw. sad but true. pugging is not solely about want, but also numerous other factors including availability, difficulty, etc. the more bobs there are in gw, the less harder it becomes for the tims to find a pug, eventually leading to tims becoming bobs.

keeping a multi-player game alive isn't always such an easy task--something that a single-player game never even has to worry about.



you are still neglecting the fact that the player cannot abuse splinter weapon either. what you are saying is only true for a player that did not abuse splinter weapon. which in practice, i suppose you can say it does make the game easier if you assume that the majority did not abuse splinter weapon.

some just dont understand that people who play alone, stay alone, but if those people get 7 heroes, and say the game already is too easy, then they will stop using 7 heroes one day, so pugs never die, just too bad that most pugs are plain bad

not only is it hard to find people to play with, but its also hard to find pugs who can help you, not counting z quests and wanteds and such

for those who got sick of bad pugs, and that most left the game, so they cant play with friends anymore, 7 heroes can encourage them to keep playing/come back to gw

now that we have a GW2 HoM calculator i saw alot coming back, but will leave once its done
7 heroes may help gw to stay alive for some longer than it would be without 7 heroes

fail arguement right there.... Heros and henchies are there for a reason.
And no henchies don't suck , it's the person controlling them, so......