Make Zaishen Title Count for PvE Only

You can max the sweet tooth title by doing either PvE or PvP but it's not considered a PvP title. This is exactly the same for the zaishen title. It can be acquired either by doing PvE or PvP, therefore, it should not be a PvP title.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Zaishen_Challenge_Quest and http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Jessie_Llam

Why is it bad when a title which can be obtained through both PvE or PvP to be counted as a PvP title, but it's ok when a title that can be obtained through both PvE or PvP to be counted as a PvE title? That just doesn't make sense, unless you are saying PvP is holier than PvE.

Easy reason : a pve title can be obtained in 1 day or in few hours , because you are able to do it with heroes , you just go in mission and then it depends on you. In Pvp , you can play during some weeks and not gain a lot of points , simply because you have no luck , because you can't find a team , because your mates fail..... Point here is that wiki builds are efficient vs all mobs , but they are not efficient vs ALL HUMANS .

The same can be applied for cash titles : considering you got enough money , you can just buy and have the title in less than an hour.Anyway , what's pvp in clicking a chest many times ?

Answer to End : this arena relies too much on luck , considering you need 5 wins per point , yo ucan just do it 24/7 and have 0 point.Example : this last week end , i played monk , but i ended having like 3 points in 5 hours , just because i either had 3monks , either none each fight ....

I wonder how many guys will quote again that zkeys can be obtainable for zconis .... really funny ... taking into account that exchanging coins for zkeys is simply not worth ... better to take ritualis elite books or even more profitable just take heavy equipment bag ... and then sell it for ectos or just for zkeys ... anyway anyone who uses the brain instead of e-pen is aware that totaly vast majority of zkeys comes from pvps ... simple as that
EOT

<---sold around 1k zkeys i got from xunlai back in the day....just sayin, in my case more of mine came from me not pvping then me pvping.

That doesn't make sense in why it's ok that PvE titles are obtainable through both PvE or PvP, but it's not for titles that count as PvP title.
There's not one universal build to beat PvE with, you will need specific builds for certain areas, just as you need specific builds to counter other players in PvP (builds which you can find in PvX Wiki anyways).

Also, I don't see why PvP titles requiring luck to obtain mean that they're worth more than a PvE title. Luck is nothing to brag about.

/Notsigned.

I got my zkeys through PvP (same as I did my lux/kurz - still not happy that that's a PvE title, but that's a different matter). OK so it might be very low end PvP but it still gave me balth faction and it still involved being on a team of players playing against/killing another team of players so it's still PvP.

Make HA r3 count, or make lux/kurz r8+ and PvP, or make zaishen based on balth faction not zkeys and then I'll /sign.

I don't see how balthizar faction would stop this title from being bought... oh noez,, faction is buyable.

Z-Keys were intended as pvp rewards, and are gotten from pvp easiest. I'd say this title counts due to it being related to pvp. Someone spend the time pvping to get them, just because they sold them to a pve'r shouldn't mean anything. If all the 'hardcore (lol)' pvp'rs we see on these forums stopped selling their keys, maybe people wouldn;t get the title so fast. Yes you can get them from pve Z quests, but common, the pvp ZQ is the quickest one of those quests.

For those sayiung it's to easy to get the title, are you telling me r6 hero, r3 glad/command/codex are hard, like at all? You call yourself a serious pvp'r and think those are hard to get, lolz. Sure it takes a little more time, but you complain about having to grid a pve title anyway.

I'm not saying the title was implemented in the best way, and yes, I think customized keys would have helped, but common, getting 1 pvp title that isn't Zaishen isn't hard either.

Stop QQ just because someone can get a title you have...

Correction : getting pvp titles wasn't hard , but it is now , due to ( as we are saying for like what , 1 year ? ) epic inactivity . Even a serious hardcore pvp you mention will take time to get 1000 fame , thus guess for a newcomer ....

Apart of that , since you obviously didn't understand the point , you can have that title in many ways , by not even fighting any player . Even someone who didn't buy keys could do it with xunlai house , zaishen challenge , etc....

I didn't say poeple needed to fight anyone for keys ^^, but ok.

So, it was easy before, but isn't now. Are you saying you don't want newcomers to get this title from buying keys, you would rather them try and get r6 in an inactive arena? I don't feel those of us who already have things like r6/g3 should tell others they need to fight in HA because thats how we got the title. Arguing to say these titles take more skill to get, yet admitting they were easy back when a lot of people got them, clearly you just don't want people to get what you have. Kinda selfish if you ask me. (I'll also note my pvp reward is from r6/g3/c3, and Z-keys from getting those titles)

You can still go for g3, ra does still have some life in it...

Your scenario is not any kind of counter to the position that PvP titles are meant to be those titles which are gained exclusively through PvP. Any opportunity for the title to be gained through non-PvP means should instantly label it as a PvE title. Saying that you can get a title through PvP doesn't make it a PvP title, but saying you can get a title through PvE does make it a PvE title.

If you bought your keys to get to r3 Zaishen, or if anyone was able to do so, and since we know that gold is easily earned through PvE, we should be able to reason that Zaishen is a PvE title.

And yet you can buy fame and champ points. Whoops, there goes that definition.

One thing you, and most of the other PvP players in here fail to realize is that - even correcting for the fact that there are far, far more players who identify as "PvE players" than "PvP players" - there are relatively few "pure PvP players" who have never and will never touch PvP, compared to the HUGE numbers of "pure PvE players who will never touch PvP out of principle, completely ignoring anything relating to skill or aptitude. Restricting the "max achievement" title to people who play PvE just isn't good business sense, and sorry, that trumps the desire of a tiny fraction of the community to be the 1337-est of the 1337.

PvP rewards in one game shouldn't be terribly meaningful in another anyway. If you want GW2 to have actually meaningful rewards in PvP, best not clog it with a bunch of detritus from a partially broken game.

You buy your way onto a team of good players and play for your points against other players. For GvG, this is either done against a legitimate team and can be considered fair PvP, or is done in tandem with other point farming teams and falls outside of this discussion due to being a bannable offense. For HA, you can't force your way against lame teams, so playing against other legitimate players is a must, no matter how unimportant a bar you may be given to play. The argument stands.

/signed

People who want to max should have done a little bit of everything in the game including some pvp not just getting rich. If you refuse to pvp just display your gwamm instead of champion of the gods.

Also if you pay to be carried to the pvp title you are still pvping I dont see the connection between being carried and buying the title.

By your logic - If you bought your Sweet Tooth title with the money you got off selling Zaishen Keys, which you obtained through PvP'ing, or if anyone was able to do so, we should be able to reason that Sweet Tooth is a PvP title.

Still answer me this, what makes PvP so much more special than PvE?

(So much that it even gets a special point for one non-maxed, equally exploitable / buyable / bottable / synchable title...?)

No, that's not my logic at all. You played PvP, you earned Zaishen Keys, you sold them for money, you bought sweets, and you consumed them to get the title. The only thing you've done is PvP. That does not say that Sweet Tooth is a PvP title. However, I have farmed dungeons for rare weapons, sold those weapons, used the gold from that to buy sweets, and earned my title in that way. I never had to step foot into an arena to do this, so it clearly can not be considered a PvP title. No amount of PvP is necessary for me to earn this title.

Zaishen is certainly a PvE title. I do not have to play any of the PvP arenas in order to earn money for buying other people's keys and earning the title through a strictly PvE means. That disqualifies it from being a PvP title. PvP titles should be restricted to titles that can only be achieved through fighting other players in a PvP arena.

OK, so let's use another example then. You sell the money you got off your Zaishen Keys, which you bought with faction through PvP'ing and bought a Vanquishing service which will vanquish areas for you while you being afk the whole time.
You PvP'd for the money to pay for the service for the PvE title, without doing any PvE yourself at all.

I think we are getting into dissecting minutiae here. I want to make it really simple to everyone what my point of starting this thread was: If you want a PvP title, you should earn a PvP title doing some PvP. I don't think that is too hard to grasp, and it is a logical, forthright reason.

I can vanquish areas or pay for someone to vanquish them for me without ever having to step into an arena. Vanquisher titles are therefore PvE.

You can continue to run down the list of PvE titles and explain how you earned them with money through PvP, but my argument is still going to be that those titles are plenty obtainable without ever having to step foot in an arena, making them PvE titles rather than PvP.

And you can also earn the Zaishen title without ever stepping into a PvE area... your point?

You can't earn it exclusively through PvP. There is potential for you to earn the Zaishen title even though you have never fought another player, which is the whole essence behind the idea of "PvP". If there's no competition between players, it shouldn't be given the PvP label.

I'm mystified at how you're not following my logic yet that I've had to explain myself through this many posts.

• If you can earn the title through PvE play, it is a PvE title.
• If the only way to earn the title is by stepping foot into an arena, it is a PvP title.
• If you have the option of earning a title through either PvE or PvP means, it can be earned without playing PvP, and is therefore a PvE title.

I agree, but still, then I don't see a reason for PvP titles to award a special point.

I'm for the removal of the "PvP title" point alltogether (which won't happen, so...). PvP titles currently count also as individual statues in the HoM, just like any other title. That should suffice, there's nothing special in them to justify the bonus, expecially since all these titles can be added in the HoM while at a rather low rank and - bar the Champion - are rather easy to get / buyable / exploitable.

Seems to me if a PvP title should only be obtainable via PvP play then the reverse should hold true and a PvE title should only be obtainable via PvE play.

Since you're saying Zaishen should be a PvE title (since you can obtain it without ever playing PvP), then Sweettooth, Party, Drunkard, et al., should be considered PvP titles because you can obtain them without ever playing PvE.

Is the whole reason behind this..."I don't want PvE's to have a PvP title?"

Shayne, why are you even discussing this anymore? Your logic is flawless, and their argument is getting weaker every time.

I'm aswell mystified at people are not getting the point of the thread...
They made things so that your HoM needs 1 pvp title . Point is , there are now a very few pvp titles , whereas you can display a huge number of pve statues . Why are some people saying : " but you can also buy sweet tooth " . Ok sure , but is that title a must for HoM? clearly not .

Point is getting pvp titles take a lot much of effort compared to pve( to people who will say " cmon getting r6 ha is easy " just think how long it takes to vanquish all cantha with any wiki build ... ) , and considering zaishen as pvp looks like an ' insult ' for people who got r15 HA , r8 champ , etc...

It seems to me that the point of gaining most of these titles in GW1 is to get pve rewards in GW2. If the rewards were supposed to benefit pvp'ers in GW2, then most of the titles would be pvp based.

Oh, so it's all about PvP E-Peen.........lol...that's too funny!

So, I earn my Zaishen Keys through PvP'ing - then why should I be denied my PvP title just because a few powertraders and lucky PvE'ers were able to buy their Zaishen Keys with gold? I clearly PvP'ed for my title.

And yet, as has been so often lamented on these forums, there's no penalty for losses. There's nothing standing between an average (or even terrible) player and r6 besides money and time, if they so desire it. Even farming UW teams will get you there eventually. If your argument is that the player must, at least, be present in a PvP arena (even if they do not meaningfully contribute to their team) to get fame, then I say...who cares? How is that meaningful in any way, how would it suddenly make the accomplishment indicative of skill, ability, aptitude, or any other positive quality associated with PvP? Does it honestly mean that much to you that anyone who wants to buy these three points must buy their way onto an HA team, as opposed to buying zkeys? F***, I'd think you'd rather them just buy the keys, so HA isn't suddenly flooded with rich noobs trying to buy their way onto your team.

I have to say, this is the strongest point against having Zaishen count as a pvp title. I agree, the fact that you can get something in any other non-pvp way, makes the title not pvp. Though I do not agree this makes it a pve title, just means you can get it in either.

I do have a problem with the people arguing other, pve hate, type points though. Just because you pvp doesn't make you a better person, you just have fun with a different format.

tbh, to clear this up, I think either lux/kurz should count too, or switch zaishen for gamer. Either have the title strictly pvp, or something you can get from pvp play (or not if you choose another method)

I care. The OP cares. This discussion likely wouldn't have left page one if people didn't care. If you don't care, please leave.

If we are going to attach values such as "skill", "ability", and "aptitude" to the title and use those as a measure for what should be considered PvP and PvE, we are not going to get anywhere, because we can't possibly reach a consensus on what we, as a group, can define as "skillful". All we have to go with is a definition - player versus player. The Zaishen title does not require this interaction and therefore should not be considered a PvP title.

I am less concerned with how people have to earn their reward and more concerned with the consistency behind qualifying for a particular reward. A PvE title should not be giving a person direct credit for fulfilling a PvP objective. If this forces PvE-only players to dip a little into the PvP side of GW, that's just a side effect.

If you are insisting that I play HA, I don't think you know very much about my PvP history.

My triumphant return after years of absentia!


My problem with this argument is that people getting the zaishen title by just buying keys in no way detracts from people that 'legitimately' earned other PvP titles. There have been PvP titles since titles were first added to the game. When people started working toward earning these, did they know about the coming of GW2 and that there would be a Hall of Monuments that required a PvP title to fill out completely? No, they didn't. They earned the title for the sake of the title itself and other people buying the one purchasable 'PvP' title in no detracts from the difficult PvP titles other people have earned.

The only circumstance where I could see this as a valid argument would be if someone had worked hard to earn a PvP title specifically to fill out their Hall but then later Anet patched it so the buyable Zaishen title counted as a PvP title meaning that person didn't need to go through as much trouble as they did. But obviously, that's not what happened. Everyone has had the same opportunity to use the Zaishen title as the PvP tic from the word go and it doesn't affect PvP'ers anymore than it does anyone else.

This argument is moot. If anything, anyone that disagrees with what I've said should instead be asking Anet to create a new GW1 to GW2 reward system that is exclusively just for achievements in PvP rather than harping over these three measly points in the HoM.

Snow I WANT pve ers to go out and get a pvp title. The title that says you've done everything in guild wars should reflect that you've at least dipped into some pvp imo.

-Krisd

That's clearly not what I meant, thanks.

And I'm saying that fame doesn't require this interaction either. It requires you to find someone willing to put you on their team (given a whole lot of incentive), and for you to faff around while they farm newbie teams in UW for a few fame points. I know I've seen threads where people have offered to let you afk if you so desired, and since there's nothing stopping you from doing so (ie, you don't need to do squat to get credit for the victory) I'm sure it's been done (and is being done right now).

Your response is still that they're in a PvP arena. My response is, as before, big friggin deal. That doesn't mean the player actually needs to PvP, and insisting that it's "better" for a player to buy fame than zkeys is just pure obstinance at this point. You're arguing on a technicality that completely misses the point that if players weren't allowed to complete this requirement by buying the Zaishen title, they'd just buy another title, and in neither case would they at all be interested in participating in PvP, nor would they be forced to.

Eh, those are effectively the same thing. "How someone earns a reward" depends on how you determine what qualifies as earning the reward.

And yet a PvE-er with time and money could earn r6 without ever directly participating in PvP. The only difference is it would take a lot more time to do so.

>_>
General "you", not specific "you".

You're arguing on principle. That's fine and dandy, but it's also completely short-sighted. This isn't a theoretical discussion, nor is it supposed to be a particularly "fair" decision; this is a business decision, first and foremost. There are far more "pure" PvE players than "pure" PvP players. Hell, the game isn't even built that well to accommodate "pure" PvP players, considering how the unlock system works. On the other hand, no PvE player has ever been forced to head into PvP to get something they want, save for the PvP-specific titles and the rank emote. Why do you think that should suddenly change now, when they're trying to get people excited over their new game?

This is probably what I agree with most. I mean, i guess its not that big of a deal since its only 3 points... but still. I don't think you should be required to PvP in order to get the 50 points. It should be an option for those who want to, and only an option so that those who don't want to dont have to in order to get the full 50.

lol yea of course zaishen title should be PVE title not PvP. Anyone who could disagree with that is kinda dumb.

Though think what benefits it will be for GW if they did. Much more ppl would do HA / RA / and lol codex.

In the whole GW1 HoM there's a grand total of 1 PvP point - which is kinda crazy as I'd guess 1/3 of the GW player base PvP more than PvE. It would be tough for some ppl do get but would be a challenge and make the 50/50 total much harder to achieve which would be good

Its 3 points.

And I seriously, seriously doubt that 1/3 of the playerbase is primarily PvPers. My bet is that the proportion is more 85% PvE, 15% PvP. Just a guess of course, but I would be willing to put money on this guess being close to the actual proportion of PvP to PvE players.

/signed.

It's lame. People must pvp if they want a pvp statue. This is just another stupid way to screw pvp'ers and help pve'ers.

I got G4. Casual playing random arena and you will have a pvp statue pretty fast. It will also net u alot of balthazar faction to buy u some stupid zkeys O.o

And don't even start on QQ-ing about RA being un-doable. It is doable. And if u get 3 pts in 5 hours, YOU are doing something wrong. (play less pve) And the funny thing is, i got my g4 without ever playing a monk.

And no i'm not a "pvp player". I spend way more time in pve (and i play casual). So stop QQ-ing. Just admit that Zaishen is not a worthy pvp title.

You can get Zkeys by doing pve things (Gcoins). Or you can just buy it. And in my opinion, real money titles like Zaishen, sweet tooth etc. should never be a pvp title.