Xunlai Tournament House and/or red/roll resign do not qualify as PvP, and neither does "WTB ZKeys." This is not a PvP title as currently implemented. They could have made it one, but that dead horse has been beaten into the ground. Remove it from PvP reward in HoM as OP suggests.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to add the statue for a PvP reward that I got in XTH by clicking a website for 5 minutes every month without once setting foot in a PvP arena in Guild Wars.
Make Zaishen Title Count for PvE Only
MisterB
Shayne Hawke
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Originally Posted by Grav
Strictly speaking, only the 2nd point is always true. In the case of the other two, the exact opposite argument could also be made on Kurzick/Luxon titles, for example:
See what I mean? |
- If there is no method of earning a title in PvE, it must be a PvP title.
- If there is no method of earning a title in PvP, it must be a PvE title.
chris12xu
saying someone is wrong when your dealing with a matter of opinions is rather pointless since an opinion such as this cant be wrong since its an opinion....saying someone else is wrong is just showing how little your understanding of an opinion is but thats not the point of the topic.
what makes pvp and pve so different? why should a title that can be obtained in both pve and pvp only be considered a pvp title? if there was a requirement for a pve title then people would probably be moaning about how sweet tooth and party animal counts for pvp people. Its really just a game why work so hard to make people upset I think your missing the point of a game, the point is to have fun not grind out titles. people pay for the ztitle you can pay for vanqs zkeys can only be obtained in pvp so you need to interact with a pvp person to get them, and vanqs can only be gained in pve so you need to interact with a pve people to get them. Also standing in a pvp arena leeching a run or buying your way into teams is hardly a "better" way to get a pvp title and dont say that it wont happen on a large scale becuase we all know it will. Honestly I think if a title can be gained in PvP in anyway shape or form it should count as a pvp title and that includes gamer lux and kurz also.
what makes pvp and pve so different? why should a title that can be obtained in both pve and pvp only be considered a pvp title? if there was a requirement for a pve title then people would probably be moaning about how sweet tooth and party animal counts for pvp people. Its really just a game why work so hard to make people upset I think your missing the point of a game, the point is to have fun not grind out titles. people pay for the ztitle you can pay for vanqs zkeys can only be obtained in pvp so you need to interact with a pvp person to get them, and vanqs can only be gained in pve so you need to interact with a pve people to get them. Also standing in a pvp arena leeching a run or buying your way into teams is hardly a "better" way to get a pvp title and dont say that it wont happen on a large scale becuase we all know it will. Honestly I think if a title can be gained in PvP in anyway shape or form it should count as a pvp title and that includes gamer lux and kurz also.
lemming
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Originally Posted by chris12xu
what makes pvp and pve so different? why should a title that can be obtained in both pve and pvp only be considered a pvp title?
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chris12xu
not for the people who obtained it by doing pvp and its not by any means easy to get it by doing pve for a casual player getting the money to get r3 zaishan is very difficult.
Del
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Originally Posted by chris12xu
not for the people who obtained it by doing pvp and its not by any means easy to get it by doing pve for a casual player getting the money to get r3 zaishan is very difficult.
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Kook~NBK~
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Originally Posted by Shayne Hawke
I have given an argument countless times to support my third point that refutes your first. On both points, you're just wrong. A title that can be achieved through PvP doesn't automatically make it a PvP title, because it could potentially be earned without PvP. The availability of earning a title through both methods always voids it of being known as a PvP title for this same reason.
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A title that can be achieved through PvE doesn't automatically make it a PvE title, because it could potentially be earned without PvE. The availability of earning a title through both methods always voids it of being known as a PvE title for this same reason.
lemming
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Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~
The bolded part is a matter of opinion. The same logic you're using in your argument can be applied this way:
A title that can be achieved through PvE doesn't automatically make it a PvE title, because it could potentially be earned without PvE. The availability of earning a title through both methods always voids it of being known as a PvE title for this same reason. |
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Del
Then again, do casuals even care about getting 50/50? No, because they're casual, not serious players. The only people who care whether or not zaishen counts as a pvp title or not are pvers who are too terrible to just play some pve, and hide behind excuses of rank discrimination and other bullshit like that.
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Elnino
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Originally Posted by Kook~NBK~
The bolded part is a matter of opinion. The same logic you're using in your argument can be applied this way:
A title that can be achieved through PvE doesn't automatically make it a PvE title, because it could potentially be earned without PvE. The availability of earning a title through both methods always voids it of being known as a PvE title for this same reason. |
Find me a link that calls the party animal title a pve title.
The zaishen title on the other hand, is different which is the problem.
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Never done GvG..but seems like it might be somewhat like HA
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Del
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Some of us just don't like it. I've played HA won halls (vent 3.2.1....spikes will win it occasionally) I've played RA (run monk) Never done GvG..but seems like it might be somewhat like HA. CA...well....no one does CA. Used to HB some....that wasn't hard. It's not that I found it that hard...I simply don't like it very much. The only time I play it is when I'm very bored, or someone asks me to join them. I don't uderstand why some ppl can't understand that GW pvp is not all that fun for everyone. Sad to say but I enjoy buying and selling in kamadan more than I enjoy pvp. Thats just me...not everyone.
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lutz
/signed
This makes sense. Zaishen Keys are very commonly sold and a common item amongst PvPers and PvE-ers. It doesn't make any sense to have a PvP title achievable through PvE.
This is also known as a bannable/illegal offense.
This makes sense. Zaishen Keys are very commonly sold and a common item amongst PvPers and PvE-ers. It doesn't make any sense to have a PvP title achievable through PvE.
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Originally Posted by Dre
as if you can't buy a GvG title >.>
1. join highrank gvg guild 2. let them take you along during gvg in exchange for $$ 3. ?????? 4. same RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing effect as Z-Keys!!!!!!! (i.e buying the title) |
lemming
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Originally Posted by lutz
This is also known as a bannable/illegal offense.
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Then again, I've also never heard of any serious guild letting it happen, because dead weight is a lot harder to hide in GvG.
Smarty
AB/JQ/FA are PvP formats. There is no HoM-recognised PvP title for those formats. Zaishen is the only PvP title you can get if that's the way you PvP. Until there's another title which counts for the low-end PvP places, the Zaishen title should continue to count towards PvP, no matter how retarded it is.
newbie_of_doom
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Originally Posted by Smarty
AB/JQ/FA are PvP formats. There is no HoM-recognised PvP title for those formats. Zaishen is the only PvP title you can get if that's the way you PvP. Until there's another title which counts for the low-end PvP places, the Zaishen title should continue to count towards PvP, no matter how retarded it is.
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Also, the Zaishen Supporter title is still not a PvP title. It can still be bought even if you NEVER play JQ/AB/FA/RA/HA/GvG or whatever.
It shouldn't be a PvP title in fairness, but honestly I don't really care. I care more about selling zkeys anyway.
BlackSephir
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
I don't uderstand why some ppl can't understand that GW pvp is not all that fun for everyone.
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I don't uderstand why some ppl can't understand that if they don't want to pvp, they don't deserve any pvp rewards, including the statue in HoM.
Now I want to see a thread about how pve titles should be obtainable by playing GvG.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by Del
Don't really give a rat's ass why some people don't like pvp, they just better not expect to have pvp rewards when they don't want to pvp.
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Then, dare I ask, why is even there a 3 points bonus for a PvP title, when the rewards are PvE thingies?
Actually, I'm more surprised by a PvP title giving 3 points for nothing special, then the Zaishen title being considered as such.
RedDog91
I think everyone is forgetting that at some point in time the keys have to be obtained. And the only way to obtain them is through PvP.
So even if you paid for your keys, they were still originated from PvP, making it a PvP title.
So even if you paid for your keys, they were still originated from PvP, making it a PvP title.
Gill Halendt
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Originally Posted by RedDog91
I think everyone is forgetting that at some point in time the keys have to be obtained. And the only way to obtain them is through PvP.
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Notorious Bob
/notsigned
Simply harps back to the "PvP is better than PvE" argument.
Anet might have been better having separate reward/title streams for those who PvE exclusively, PvP exclusively and the small number who do both.
As it, giving exclusive PvE'ers a way to reach 50/50 is perfectly fine by me.
Simply harps back to the "PvP is better than PvE" argument.
Anet might have been better having separate reward/title streams for those who PvE exclusively, PvP exclusively and the small number who do both.
As it, giving exclusive PvE'ers a way to reach 50/50 is perfectly fine by me.
MithranArkanere
I think it simpler to consider the problem a naming thing.
In this case, "PvP title" refers to a title that can be acquired only in the PvP areas. That is, a "Battle isles title".
Gamer is not considered PvP. Why? Because many games are not organized by the Zaishen. Even when once in the arena outpost you'll often see the Battle Isles map as the region map, you don't have to step at all in the Battle isles to enter that outpost. But there is no way to get to HA or TA without going to the battle isles (including your guild hall) first.
Kurzick and Luxon are partially PvP too like the Zaishen title, but it's not added. Why? Because it happens in Factions, not in the Battle Isles.
And the Zaishen title, even when you can get it by doing only PvE (much slower than by doing only PvP) or by purchasing the keys from others, you MUST be in the Battle isles to get it. There's no way around that.
Rename "PvP title" to "Battle isles title" and done, all the inconsistencies are solved.
Of course, that won't make those that want to remove the Zaishen happy, but just think:
"Would they be complaining if the the title was name "Battle Isles title" in the first place?"
Yes, they will, people always complain, but the complains would be the usual ones.
In this case, "PvP title" refers to a title that can be acquired only in the PvP areas. That is, a "Battle isles title".
Gamer is not considered PvP. Why? Because many games are not organized by the Zaishen. Even when once in the arena outpost you'll often see the Battle Isles map as the region map, you don't have to step at all in the Battle isles to enter that outpost. But there is no way to get to HA or TA without going to the battle isles (including your guild hall) first.
Kurzick and Luxon are partially PvP too like the Zaishen title, but it's not added. Why? Because it happens in Factions, not in the Battle Isles.
And the Zaishen title, even when you can get it by doing only PvE (much slower than by doing only PvP) or by purchasing the keys from others, you MUST be in the Battle isles to get it. There's no way around that.
Rename "PvP title" to "Battle isles title" and done, all the inconsistencies are solved.
Of course, that won't make those that want to remove the Zaishen happy, but just think:
"Would they be complaining if the the title was name "Battle Isles title" in the first place?"
Yes, they will, people always complain, but the complains would be the usual ones.
Lanier
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Originally Posted by newbie_of_doom
O really, what about luxon/kurzick then?
Also, the Zaishen Supporter title is still not a PvP title. It can still be bought even if you NEVER play JQ/AB/FA/RA/HA/GvG or whatever. It shouldn't be a PvP title in fairness, but honestly I don't really care. I care more about selling zkeys anyway. |
Essence Snow
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Originally Posted by Del
Don't really give a rat's ass why some people don't like pvp, they just better not expect to have pvp rewards when they don't want to pvp. It's just as pants on head retarded as trying to collect VA benefits when you've never served in the military.
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Kawil
The entire HoM is geared toward PvE so I'm having a hard time understanding how 1 title (Zaishen) that PvEers can get is being QQ'd over. Don't get me wrong, there are other PvP titles that can be earned for HoM but compared to the sheer amount of PvE titles...it's really not worth much mentioning.
So...either way...take it off of HoM or leave it. I'm not going to complain about 1 title I can or can't display.
So...either way...take it off of HoM or leave it. I'm not going to complain about 1 title I can or can't display.
Yojimaru
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Originally Posted by jazilla
I have a problem with this system when it allows a player to "buy" their PvP rewards for GW2.
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drkn
It makes me laugh how people treat 'those who play mainly PvE' and 'those who play mainly PvP' so differently. Presuming that the former plays ONLY PvE and knows NOTHING of PvP (and that seasonal arenas aren't REAL PvP, though they're probably one of the best Balth faction source), while the latter are playing ONLY PvP and are viewed as elitist douchebags. Seriously, have a more holistic approach at Guild Wars - it has both PvE and PvP, there are people playing and enjoying both, though they don't necessarily have to grind up they're PvP to get recognized for their effort or farm PvE titles if they prefer PvP - they can put their PvP titles in HoM instead.
I'd agree with everyone stating that Gamer should be a PvP statue, but saying that Zaishen should be PvE title because the keys can be bought - come on, you just show that stereotipical elitism off. And just to point out - while you, raging here PvPers, may sell your keys to weak PvErs, for the money earned you may buy runs through the PvE content. So PvE statues - not only Sweet Tooth, but also Underworld statue, Hero statues, VQ statues - can be bought and done for you while you AFK.
So... Some may whine that Zaishen title may be easily bought from people farming PvP, some may whine that nearly all PvE titles may be bought from runners - so it makes it pretty even, i guess? To say more, selling ZKeys can easily yield enough money to buy ALL PvE statues you ever need if you like to PvP only. From both market and gameplay standpoints, it's all well even and balanced out.
I'd agree with everyone stating that Gamer should be a PvP statue, but saying that Zaishen should be PvE title because the keys can be bought - come on, you just show that stereotipical elitism off. And just to point out - while you, raging here PvPers, may sell your keys to weak PvErs, for the money earned you may buy runs through the PvE content. So PvE statues - not only Sweet Tooth, but also Underworld statue, Hero statues, VQ statues - can be bought and done for you while you AFK.
So... Some may whine that Zaishen title may be easily bought from people farming PvP, some may whine that nearly all PvE titles may be bought from runners - so it makes it pretty even, i guess? To say more, selling ZKeys can easily yield enough money to buy ALL PvE statues you ever need if you like to PvP only. From both market and gameplay standpoints, it's all well even and balanced out.
Del
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Originally Posted by Essence Snow
Just out of curiosity...What are those PvP rewards that ppl are supposively expecting? I was under the impression that the rewards were mostly if not all PvE rewards.
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deluxe
1 PvP title gives 3 points, why not make it require 2 or 3 PvP titles to get those 3 points?
I have all PvP titles, but now I have to do thing's I hate doing to get 50/50: Cartography, Grinding etc.
Why should the PvE players have it easy?
I have all PvP titles, but now I have to do thing's I hate doing to get 50/50: Cartography, Grinding etc.
Why should the PvE players have it easy?
drkn
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I have all PvP titles, but now I have to do thing's I hate doing to get 50/50: Cartography, Grinding etc. Why should the PvE players have it easy? |
Where's the problem? And you still can show off your HoM to others via the calculator to show how pro PvPer you are.
jazilla
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Originally Posted by drkn
If you have all PvP statues, you don't have to do the cartography at all. Most other PvE titles can be bought with the money you make selling your ZKeys - just hire a runner and go AFK. The market for ZKeys are quite stable and they're selling fast, so money should not be a problem if you're good at it.
Where's the problem? And you still can show off your HoM to others via the calculator to show how pro PvPer you are. |
chris12xu
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Originally Posted by Del
Then again, do casuals even care about getting 50/50? No, because they're casual, not serious players. The only people who care whether or not zaishen counts as a pvp title or not are pvers who are too terrible to just play some pve, and hide behind excuses of rank discrimination and other bullshit like that.
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Swahnee
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Originally Posted by Gill Halendt
Then, dare I ask, why is even there a 3 points bonus for a PvP title, when the rewards are PvE thingies?
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Shriketalon
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Originally Posted by Del
Don't really give a rat's ass why some people don't like pvp, they just better not expect to have pvp rewards when they don't want to pvp. It's just as pants on head retarded as trying to collect VA benefits when you've never served in the military.
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Oh, wait. No. I mixed those up. Silly me.
At the end of the day, PvP just isn't very important in terms of the transition to Guild Wars 2. Everything about the progression from one game to the next centers on the PvE world, the lore, the characters, the nations, the races, the history. That means that the number of times you have beaten another group in GvG or slain a bunch of randomly selected berks with your crew of equally randomly selected berks isn't some monumental, unparalleled glory. It stands equal to vanquishing the entire known world or mastering every mission or getting really, really drunk. Each gets a statue.
This suggestion wouldn't do anything to make the game better. All it would do is add to the sense of elitism for a certain subset of players, because other people would have to go through their format to "earn" a full hall. Quite frankly, that's not a sufficient reason. That's just people being annoyed that their favorite toy isn't being placed on a pedestal.
Morphy
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shriketalon
Right, because PvP is just like the armed forces. Risking your life for Tyria, defending it from all manner of threats, fighting evil armies and slaying evil gods, hunting down insidious traitors and besting otherworldy forces. Putting their lives on the line while overpaid athletes flail about in a mud pit, doing the same thing again and again while claiming they are the greatest beings in the world.
Oh, wait. No. I mixed those up. Silly me. At the end of the day, PvP just isn't very important in terms of the transition to Guild Wars 2. Everything about the progression from one game to the next centers on the PvE world, the lore, the characters, the nations, the races, the history. That means that the number of times you have beaten another group in GvG or slain a bunch of randomly selected berks with your crew of equally randomly selected berks isn't some monumental, unparalleled glory. It stands equal to vanquishing the entire known world or mastering every mission or getting really, really drunk. Each gets a statue. This suggestion wouldn't do anything to make the game better. All it would do is add to the sense of elitism for a certain subset of players, because other people would have to go through their format to "earn" a full hall. Quite frankly, that's not a sufficient reason. That's just people being annoyed that their favorite toy isn't being placed on a pedestal. |
drkn
Quote:
| ^ Typical example of one who values pretty pictures over gameplay. |
Quote:
| you were completely missing the point of his post or avoiding it on purpose to make what you were saying seem valid which it shouldn't be. |
I also believe that the real problem is in possibility of buying the Zaishen title, not that every more-PvE-oriented player did it. I for one bought maybe 20 keys out of those 200 and my PvP is pretty much limited to JQ and seasonal arenas. You don't have to be strict PvPer to get the Zaishen title, same as you don't have to be hardcore PvEr to get Hero / Protector statues. Yet PvPers have the same possibility of buying their PvE statues as PvErs have regarding the Zaishen.
So it's all about stupid elitism. PvPers get mad when someone buys their PvP title, even if it's Zaishen and the PvP community should disregard it and focus on others. I'm glad that the PvE side is rather glad there's someone to get money from for runs than being angry 'cause you bought your sweet tooth title, you should farm 10k sweets yourself!'.
Shriketalon
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Originally Posted by Morphy
^ Typical example of one who values pretty pictures over gameplay.
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This isn't about gameplay, it's about validation. Each crowd wants their time and effort to be rewarded, to have their accomplishments congratulated. The cause of complaint is the perception by the PvP crowd that their deeds are somehow deemed less worthy because they are not specifically cherished, and the closest thing (those three points) can be bought via currency.
This opinion, however, is lacking perspective. The Hall of Monuments is primarily a PvE creation, meant to bridge the gap between one tale and the next. It's focus centers upon Tyria and its story, the memories of heroes we fought beside, battles we won, forces we overcame, equipment we forged, trials we endured. Any individual achievement is given equal status, regardless if it is fighting in the Hall or charting the entire map.
Ergo, it's not a matter of PvP being diminished, it's a matter of everything being weighed equally. Pound for pound, zone for zone, there isn't as much PvP content to measure against the larger PvE world. As a result, more titles and totems are devoted to the latter.
The entire hall doesn't require exploring every single tiny niche of the Guild Wars experience, neither to achieve the full scope of item unlocks or to gain 50 points in total. That's by design, because they didn't want everyone to grind out Legendary Defender of Ascalon just to get the final title. Ergo, since PvP is a smaller part of the overall game, it is possible to complete the Hall without it.
This is not a bad thing.
Boring and Pointless
The biggest problem isn't that the Zaishen title is apparently a pvp title, in the same way that Legendary Guardian is also a pvp title, but the fact that it's worth 3 points.
Should have been:
Hero r6+ (1 point)
Glad R3+ (1 point)
Champ r3+ (1 point)
All three (2 points)
Not sure why this went to 8 pages.
It's also very comical to see people actually try to claim that the Zaishen title is infact a pvp title.
Should have been:
Hero r6+ (1 point)
Glad R3+ (1 point)
Champ r3+ (1 point)
All three (2 points)
Not sure why this went to 8 pages.
It's also very comical to see people actually try to claim that the Zaishen title is infact a pvp title.
Sethellington
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Shriketalon
Right, because PvP is just like the armed forces. Risking your life for Tyria, defending it from all manner of threats, fighting evil armies and slaying evil gods, hunting down insidious traitors and besting otherworldy forces. Putting their lives on the line while overpaid athletes flail about in a mud pit, doing the same thing again and again while claiming they are the greatest beings in the world.
Oh, wait. No. I mixed those up. Silly me. At the end of the day, PvP just isn't very important in terms of the transition to Guild Wars 2. Everything about the progression from one game to the next centers on the PvE world, the lore, the characters, the nations, the races, the history. That means that the number of times you have beaten another group in GvG or slain a bunch of randomly selected berks with your crew of equally randomly selected berks isn't some monumental, unparalleled glory. It stands equal to vanquishing the entire known world or mastering every mission or getting really, really drunk. Each gets a statue. This suggestion wouldn't do anything to make the game better. All it would do is add to the sense of elitism for a certain subset of players, because other people would have to go through their format to "earn" a full hall. Quite frankly, that's not a sufficient reason. That's just people being annoyed that their favorite toy isn't being placed on a pedestal. |
stupid 12 chars
RedStar
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Should have been: Hero r6+ (1 point) Glad R3+ (1 point) Champ r3+ (1 point) All three (2 points) |
drkn
Shriketalon pointed out one important thing - HoM is lore-linked, it's PvE by design, it's story-based. PvP isn't. If it were World vs World, there might been a statue for winning against other server; even a statue for winning Jade Quarry is more story-connected than grinding up Gladiator title.
And out of all PvP titles, Zaishen is the easiest to get for the widest group and yields 3 points - just to note, no other statue gives you so much.
And out of all PvP titles, Zaishen is the easiest to get for the widest group and yields 3 points - just to note, no other statue gives you so much.