Update - Thursday, December 8, 2011

If rits have to be nerfed to meet ele halfway that seems like a resultant nerf to me.

I have yet to see how much they are going to adjust armor vs hp, but this looks like another polymock to me. Before EoTN was released almost everyone was so excited about polymock when they first heard of it.

Sounds interesting, my ele has been collecting dust since he got overran by so much else.

But I wonder what Ensign would have had to say about this update since he seemed so passionate about the ele's plight. I learned so much about this game from reading his posts.

Why not go and ask him? He's active ... on the QQ forum.

Well, there are a couple of things happening at the same time.

Eles aren't very popular anymore because they don't dps as well anymore in comparison.

And then there is the change for HM where mobs get lower armour and more hp.

This last thing makes eles more viable in HM and SoS builds less powerful at the same time.

The changes in HM for mobs are a direct reason for the damage reductions in the channeling line.

In PvP it wouldn't do much for the ele, so they adjusted a lot of skills to make eles interesting again for pvp and pve by giving more varied possibilities to the different element lines.

I suppose the comment that SoS will still be viable for Rit but not so much for other primaries is a very valid comment as well.

It's still gonna take a month at least before this happens but I will be interested to see what it will do.

Then on to the paragon redo please. That class needs to be able to have more viable pve builds aside from the imbagon builds. Also in pvp it needs a boost for various game types, but that's another story altogether

I don't like the focus on elites rather than builds with better synergy, for example the laughable ones in earth magic. Yet at the same time they're still buffing HM ele's too which are already troublesome due to their OP numbers. Imagine a Mind Burn from a boss...carnage.

This is part 1. Part 2 will comprise mostly of regular ele skills. This update will make HM ele mobs interesting.

"While we don't think this will make PBAoE Elementalists very common, it will provide some better options for this type of playstyle."

This shows how clueless Anet is. Hey, let's nerf an over-exploited pbaoe damage skill (DwG) and replace it with a DIFFERENT easily-exploited pbaoe skill (new Star Burst). Nobody will notice, right?

Probably not. 40AL is not going to stop arbitrarily large damage the way Shelter/PS/ProtBond does. It's also not going to do a thing against armor-ignoring damage.

The energy is nice (it's basically BiP); the hp is almost a liability. Ever played an ER ele in Slavers around those symbiosis spirits? Remember the Prophecies-era rants about why Endure Pain is bad? Same deal. You've essentially added "this skill does an additional 216 un-prot-able damage" to every enchant strip that could be used against you, as well as added a 216 un-prot-able damage penalty to the ele failing to recast Eboon before it expires.

----

Regarding Double Dragon:
I'm having a hard time seeing why everyone is so excited over this skill. For starters, isn't it going to cause scatter? For another thing, the overall damage output is just not that great unless you're getting both enchanted players hitting things with their AoE; and that means running a PBAoE ele; and that means I'd probably rather run Starburst.

----

Regarding Starburst:
This skill is almost enough to make me think about trying to make PBAoE work... almost. But then I start looking at what's it's going to take to make the build survivable at melee range, and what its going to take to get Starburst down to a truly spammable recharge (FYI: EBSoW isn't going to work very well if you've got to be running all over to touch things), and I really start to wonder if all that trouble is really worth it when I could get similar damage output from Searing Flames.

As for Starburstway replacing Glaiveway/Frostway. Yeah, it probably will. But so what? Glaiveway/Frostway's only real selling point is that half the roles are idiot-proof and most of the others are close to idiot-proof. It's not a "good" build by any stretch of the imagination.

LOL.

@ people talking about skill balance, I believe it's not on the top of ANets list of concerns right now (dervish). I think they're just trying to keep people interested with character revamps with interesting (even if OP) skills.

Most of us have been playing for years.. there has been unbalanced pvp for so long I don't have the energy to complain anymore. When the balance comes it comes.. just don't expect it to happen any time soon, or ever.

I can only imagine how the Imps on the Fire Islands, Crags throughout Nightfall, Afflicted Elementalists and Earthbound Ooze will be...

Whats that I hear?... Its Gwen and Norgu coming to save us all.

*Like* "Get crackin' with the Shut Down Gwenny!"

And LOVE your avatar! My gf and I crack the hell up when we see that guy!

I thought he brief Leadership buff a few updates ago was a taste for sure of a paragon tweak/update. Honestly, eles were NOT that high up on my list, and the updates look... less than steller? Some of the skills look good, but I think a lot of it is unnecessary in light of the fact that the HM change would've solved eles problem right there.

double dragon will be beyond broken, put that on a hammer war.
Its basically an improved savannas heat.
Ok, lower dmg, but way easier to apply and faster recharge.

I don't think this comment is really fair. Yes, I've played for many years, but as far as games are concerned, GW has had very balanced PvP in comparison. Look at any other MMo style game and what PvP is like there and you'll see that GW is really well-balanced in comparison.

Of course it's not a perfect balance and never was, but for me it's mostly the dual class system that is at fault for that. It's a very specific feature of GW, but I also am happy that it doesn't exist in GW2 because it does create balance issues.

Instead of the Codex Arena as it is, I would like to see an arena where you can only use skills of your primary class, but that's another subject.

Anet have done more to balance PvP than any MMO style game that I've seen or played. Still not perfect at all, but a lot better....from my point of view, if I really want to PvP in a balanced way, I play a shooter like Unreal Tournament. Nothing says equal like instagib

I will be interested to see how some of these changes will affect the game and sorry but I laugh at the people who are worried about PvE bosses in HM becoming very powerful. That'll teach you to ignore skills like Protective Spirit and Shelter in combination with Pain Inverter.

There's more out there but this is just one example of what you can do against high spikes in PvE.

Me, I'm looking forward to playing an earth build again after this comes out.

Dunno if it has been mentioned before, but wouldn't the extra HP for HM creatures mess a bit with the current SC's. I can imagine Lord Khobay beeing harder due to the damage cap from SF. Same with menzies...

I see, well that sounds all sorts of stupid. Why would you only buff one aspect at a time? Every other class buff got them done at the same time, so builds had synergy. Seems they can't even stick to an update model all these years later.

shatterstone will be amazing dmg, some people here seem pessimistic.
Actually, all these upcoming changes gonne be close to broken.

That's just the tip of the iceberg, if this update actually rolls out, it will take longer and become a bit difficult for terras to do their job properly in uwsc(esp. against skeles) and fowsc

I am for anything that nerfs uwsc. It's just way too easy to clear UW with all these pvx style gimmick builds. Even the old ursan teams pale in comparison.

This is exactly what I thought. An update to ele skills in addition to the HM armor update seems like excessive buffing. I would have rathered if anet had added the HM armor update first and then reassessed the situation to see if an ele skill update was warrented.

I like a lot of these ideas. Eles have lagged in two key areas: damage output in HM and general utility. I bring very few hero bars anymore that don't have something to offer offensively and defensively. I can't remember the last time I played with a dedicated heal/prot or hybrid Monk hero outside of early areas.

My basic her build is an ST Prot, SoS with hex removal or extra resto, Panic Domination, Illusion (Shared Burden or Inept), Command Paragon (SYG, Fall Back, GftE), Icy Veins Resto, and one of a couple other hero bars -- Smite Monk finds it way in the last spot a lot but I play with a few others.

I'd love for Ele to be viable to replace any number of the above builds. SoS is far from my favorite skill, the highlight of the Rit build for me is ARage and Splinter, which could easily be brought along on a primary Ele. The Illusion Mesmer that provides good damage and a little utility along with it isn't my favorite, and the open spot is malleable anyway. In essence, my hope is that this update makes Eles viable to at least play with. They've sat for far too long.

In fact with all the recent updates, I've been a proponent of just giving horrible classes their moment in the spotlight. Dervish won't be in GW2; break the heck out of them if you want. Honestly, balance is rather shot anyway. The only areas you can't complete fairly easily with seven heroes are those that require gimmicks (thinking UW specifically and DoA HM which is basically impossible without loads of PvE skills).

@above - just pointing out that not only are Elementalist heroes viable, they are outright superior to some of the heroes you listed (the Illusion Mesmer, Command Paragon, Icy Veins Resto and I will even argue ST Prot).

Wouldn't the indirect damage skills, that target an ally but then do damage to foes, provide for an extra challenge to SF, in those area's where these ele-skills are used by mobs?

The effect-based ones will be really annoying (snare) or potentially dangerous (knockdown). Pulsating AoEDoTs shouldn't be a big issue, the low individual packet damage gets eaten up by damage reduction very easily,

I think those current 1-hit ele kills from HM monsters would be even more interesting after the buffs.

Maybe skills like Spoil Victor would become part of the hero team meta with the added hp of HM monsters. Conversely some dervish skills that rely on target hp being lower would become more effective for monsters, so monster dervishes maybe more dangerous than they are now.

Personally, I dont think they should reduce HM monster armor and buff their hp. That would impact the performance of all classes and for all I know it may even be a general nerf to ALL classes if they buff hp too high (imagine all normal monsters have boss-like hps).

If they want to buff eles, they can simply buff up their damage high enough to be effective in HM without impacting general PvE itself.

I feel that both updates have distinct aims.

HM changes alone would bring the elementalists damage back, yes, but everything they would do would revolve around Searing Flames/ Savannah Heat. Playing Normal Mode gives a good idea. Fire elementalists are strong, air sucks, water sucks, and earth is midly viable.

This update is not trying to make the elementalists directly stronger damage-wise, it's simply increasing their number of useful elites, because right now most are underpowered. And most of those changes to not seem to overshadow (at first glance) the best options eles have right now. They either sacrifice damage for utility, or are more dangerous for higher risk play.

Likewise, part 2 of the update will focus on cross-elemental combos, which is also another weak point of the profession.

And then elementalists would be grossly overpowered for Normal Mode, and HM elementalist bosses would one-hit kill entire parties. The source of the problem lies on the way HM works.

They should just make Elemental Lord give armor penetration to Elementalist spells instead of screwing with health/armor ratios.

And which skill slots would be left for that? Eles must currently be stuck with an attunement, several times with a cover enchantment; they still need the glyph of lesser energy or something else; and hopefully, a snare as well.

With elemental lord in addition to that, and they would have, what, three slots left for damage?

And without this skill update, their only viable builds would basically rely on fire/ earth Aoe damage, which happen to have pretty big recharges.

We would be left solely with Invoke Lightning builds, and those don't even need the extra armor penetration that much. They already inherently have it + cracked armor; it wouldn't even fix the problem with air magic, which is the reliance on single-target damage.

It would change little for players, and nothing for heroes.

It would also still keep armor-ignoring damage too strong compared to armor-sensitive damage. The HM changes also helps physical classes, the dervish especially because it is loaded with earth/ cold damage.

This is what I thought before, but I actually disagree now. Buffing health and reducing armor ends up doing a lot....

1) Reduces the time or even effectiveness of current farming
2) Makes ALL armor sensitive damage more viable, not JUST elementalists.
3) Keeps armor ignoring damage as a viable build structure (I doubt they'll simply reduce armor levels to normal-mode equivilent. Armor will be more, just not as high as right now)
4) Throws skills that react on enemies with higher health in the game, possibly.

Depending on how much health is given, more health means longer staying power. The difference between GW now and GW years ago is that you couldn't spike down entire mobs of enemies in a few seconds. Mobs are threatening in a balanced party setting when they are alive long enough to start doing stuff to you (discounting SY!, which single-handedly nullifies this.)

So TLDR is that what they're doing can potentially solve a lot of problems, not just elementalist problems.



Though, I tend to personally think Rangers and Paragons deserved looking at more than eles, and probably in that order. Double-cast skills look interesting enough, and a little flavor thrown in certainly is welcome, but at least with the HM changes eles would -have- viable builds. All paragons have is a very boring, very overpowered imbagon, and the vast majority of Ranger skills are useless and seem to end up only leaving a barrage build, which is cool for some people, but for people like me, it looks boring and 'wait, couldn't I just do that on a sin or something?'

And hey, I may be going a little harsh here, but I've not played GW in a good while. It's been hard finding reasons to come back and I've given up on looking to skill balances for hope (I honestly didn't think they were doing that anymore. this is a surprise.). Paragons, and lessly rangers, were probably the one thing that, if tweaked, would get me back to playing.

Don't get me wrong, the proposed changes look good. could use a bit more splitting for PvP it looks like, but good job. I just kinda wish you guys would have thrown the HM changes in with some ranger/paragon tweaking and just saw how things went with eles before focusing on them, because like I said before... eles may have been fire-centric for ages and need the flavor badly, but at least people still have, would have a reason to play them.

I agree with this. I want to see a split for the Motivation line. Bring back PvE Motivation from around release of NF.

I love the Ele changes. Build diversity will be pretty great.

Now all they need to do besides the Para changes is to take Ranger spirit cast times in PvE down to 1 second, and lower trap times in PvE along with damage so that Rangers can still use traps but not gimmick areas with them.

I've been thinking about what you said here and then it suddenly hit me. Which class really would suffer most from these HM changes?

Well, let's see, which class heavily depends on armour ignoring damage and life degen? Oh....the necromancer.

Depending on how big the changes are, this HM update could potentially make any blood or curses build less effective. I know that people usually use necro heroes for MM and restoration builds, but the blood and curses lines are full of life stealing and degen skills. They will become less effective when the enemies have more hitpoints.

Personally I think that this update, when it comes, will have to address that and I'd rather they did that right away. I wish they would nerf the necro restoration healer builds because they are basically better at it than ritualists and that's lame really. Sure I use em but I would find it refreshing if that was taken away. But no instead they are going to make blood and curses builds even harder.

Blood elites all revolve around armour ignoring damage, energy gain or life regeneration.

Curses elites tend to revolve around life degen and some armour ignoring damage as well.

And a lot of the normal skills follow suit. I see this as a bad sign for necro players.

Blood magic has sucked for a very long time outside of the amplifying skills.
SS is going to be nerfed a little, but it's still a 'enemy mob dies eventually' button.
Sure armour ignoring damage is getting nerfed across the board, but the force amplifiers the Nec has will still blow everything else away.

Armor ignoring damage hasn't been reduced, armor sensitive damage has increased a bit. I think it is very likely that the armor will still be high enough to not negate the usefulness of armor ignoring damage. I don't think necros would suffer much, they already have PLENTY of roles and builds that won't be messed up much with these changes.

Also, degen is already pointless to use in PvE, even in normal mode.

Thankfully, Mark of Pain was already overkill damage, so now it may be just excellent at what it does.

Degen and life steal sucked in PvE and no one used them. If they were removed from player's bars entirely not a single PvEer would miss them.

Necros have 3 High-End builds: MM, AP/Curse, and Blood.

MM gets a large boost from lower armor, depending on armor values its almost a free OoU. MMs already output obscene damage, now its obscene +1.

AP/Curse (aka MoP) has one of the best AoE damage skills already, done right it overkills enemies so fast that them lasting 1.5s instead of 1s won't bother you. The main nerf is to the shouts or EVAS which are now less effective for triggering AP.

Blood loses out a bit on account of the +damage stuff not scaling, but the other support skills like Dark Fury still work just as well.

Overall, Necromancers probably get a buff on average. Blood builds I estimate as relatively rare, while MMs are incredibly popular and AP builds are generally run with other necromancers providing minions to trigger MoP anyway.


Assassins/Rits/Mesmers/Rangers all rely on armor ignoring damage more than necromancers.

Assassins take a huge nerf since the only armor-affected damage they do is 7-17 +20% + 15% daggers. Rangers are the same except with slightly higher numbers on the base attack.

Mesmers are 100% armor ignoring but at least have some some outside utility, and WW spam falls into the "so imbalanced that even nerfed its still imbalanced" category.

Rit's main damage ability is SW which ignores armor, but at least its still VERY strong when used right (effectively a slightly weaker but easier to use MoP). Spirits get hurt a lot though, so there isn't much left to deal damage outside of DwG gimmicks or Spirit Rift.

How about as an alternative they just go the route of HM UW since this will most likely apply (and stack with the existing change) there anyways? Drop AR levels some fixed amount by profession, sure, but rather than buff hp into orbit just give everything in HM passive regen or a mix of the two? I'm thinking specifically about how shitty things like Mindblades are going to be after this. So potentially they'd receive the benefit of the +7 regen they have now and a reversal of the modest hp lowering as a tradeoff along with everything else down there.

As for the solo farming bit...hard to get worked up until they show some numbers. I can't imagine this will have any positive effect on Vaettir (among other things) which is a mainstay of event item farming. Players adapt, that's the name of the game, I just get the impression there is going to be a lot of collateral damage by taking this route to fix things for eles.

If Splinter Weapon triggers MoP, is it armour ignoring damage or is it physical damage?

It is armor ignoring physical damage. As far as the game is concerned the type of damage has no bearing on whether it ignores armor or not. Whirling Defense is another skill that deals physical damage, triggers MoP, but ignores armor. Attack skills in general ignore armor even though the damage is physical.

Whether this is a bug or not is debatable. Ancestor's Rage is armor ignoring Elemental damage but is apparently being changed to armor respecting elemental, not sure if this is a "fix" or just a change. The guild wars damage equation has grown to be a rather behemoth organism of its own that has lots of weird oddities affecting the final damage of any one attack.

Or you could just call it indecisive... A bit like multiplicative or additive percentages.......................